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Irish Rail exposé in Tribune

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,325 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Monument - let's deal with your points one at a time.

    You ask if 4-tracking the Kildare Line is a waste. Well, actually it is IF IT IS NOT USED AS INTENDED. The 4 tracking was intended so that IC express trains could overtake stopping commuter trains. If it's not being used for the purpose intended, it's a waste.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    monument wrote: »
    It isn't irrelevant.

    Take the "like a concentration-camp train" comment: Do you think the Dart at peak times is comparable to concentration-camp trains?

    I said "sentionalist or not". But the situation remains the same in the context of the service offered. You are literally focusing on the presentation rather than the many great facts contained within. Therefore it is irrelevant.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    I said "sentionalist or not". But the situation remains the same in the context of the service offered. You are literally focusing on the presentation rather than the many great facts contained within. Therefore it is irrelevant.

    Sensationalism is a distraction. It won't be taken seriously. It makes Barry Kenny's job easier, not harder. It's far easier to dismiss the valid points when such are surrounded by sensationalist nonsense. It allows others in Irish Rail and those in power feel like all of the valid points are also hyperbole.

    dowlingm wrote: »
    Monument - let's deal with your points one at a time.

    You ask if 4-tracking the Kildare Line is a waste. Well, actually it is IF IT IS NOT USED AS INTENDED. The 4 tracking was intended so that IC express trains could overtake stopping commuter trains. If it's not being used for the purpose intended, it's a waste.

    As I already said, it is a nonsense that that no extra services are planned using Commuter stock for when the line is finished.

    But then again knowing how Irish Rail and railway news is announced in this country, I would not be too shocked if it's just a case the Irish Rail are not confirming extra services until there is a photo call with a few ministers on hand. Because of the sensationalist nature of the article it's hard to know.

    In any case, nothing in the article says that all of the tracks will not be used -- current IC express trains could still overtake stopping commuter trains or mixed IC / commuter services.

    And, the potential of four tracking will only be opened up once the Dart Underground is complete (Or if Dart Underground does not go ahead, maybe the finishing the section between the current four tracking and Heuston will have to be looked at?).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    monument, your how could it be overcrowded if people are using the bus in droves is simplistic. I'm not familiar with the northern line, but I know if you took 20% of the passengers off the Maynooth peak services trains and put them on buses, it'd still be very over crowded. I imagine the northern line is similar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,480 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    "Our Mark 3 carriages... are close to the end of their useful life unless one spends a lot of money on refurbishment. However, a Mark 3 carriage in itself is inert and needs something to pull it, a locomotive. That is a very traditional way of doing things because, given the relatively short distances we have in Ireland, it means uncoupling the locomotive and putting it to the other end,"

    its been quoted already but that makes no sense to me at all...

    so because they need to move the loco from one end to the other it makes them redundant:confused::confused:

    never mind the fact that the trains will sit in the station in Heuston or Cork or Galway or wherever for an hour or so between runnings anyway, a whole 5 mins of that devoted to running around is hardly a major issue.

    in terms of shunting etc, could they fix semi-permanent rakes together to avoid this?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,316 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    in terms of shunting etc, could they fix semi-permanent rakes together to avoid this?
    Other than running around, I suspect that rakes stay together for weeks on end and only change if there is a problem or a maintenance milestone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 105 ✭✭GM071class


    Great article to be honest,

    It's always lovely to see the management of IÉ getting a trashing.

    With regards the scrapping of the Mk.3 fleet, It would have cost IÉ alot of money to install important features such as Retention Tanks, full wheelchair accessability and so on, however during a mid-life refurbishment it wouldn't have been anywhere near as 'hard on the pocket' as 4- tracking the Kildare Route for no good reason, or even giving a handful of 'passengers' in the west something not to use.

    This kind of thinking seems far to lateral for the institutionalised board of CIÉ.
    "Thowing money into a big hole is more there style!"

    On the point of the push-pull Mk.3's,
    Just to remind everyone that the 75mph Max Speed was only inforced when the vehicles were being pushed.
    Even still, on most lines in the country, 75mph is only aspirational!

    Also most of the 201's in storage don't have Push Pull capability, on a railcar railway it doesn't really matter much now anyway.

    Regards,
    Matt,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 105 ✭✭GM071class


    Victor wrote: »
    Other than running around, I suspect that rakes stay together for weeks on end and only change if there is a problem or a maintenance milestone.

    In the interest of streamlining the shunting involved at the end of a day, IÉ has a practise of leaving the rakes together.

    Normally, even during maintenance in the Valeting plants, the carriage sets were left together.

    Pr!ck Fern is just trying to justify his, and IÉ's, stupid decisions!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    Until the next tranche of 22K sets are delivered from next year, there is insufficient rolling stock to operate extra services on the Kildare route, particularly with Pace coming on stream this year. However, this was partly due to the fact that two 3-car sets were destroyed en route from Korea to Ireland and are to be replaced in the forthcoming delivery programme.

    That element of the story is probably a tad sensationalist as the 4-tracking has delivered peak-hour improvements whereby intercity services can overtake commuter services in the event of trains being delayed rather than being kept behind them. I understand that the two outbound tracks (the old ones) are now being fully relaid so there is some time yet before the KRP is able to deliver its full potential.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    JHMEG wrote: »
    monument, your how could it be overcrowded if people are using the bus in droves is simplistic. I'm not familiar with the northern line, but I know if you took 20% of the passengers off the Maynooth peak services trains and put them on buses, it'd still be very over crowded. I imagine the northern line is similar.

    I did not say there is not still overcrowding, I questioned if overcrowding is still as much of an issue if so many people have abandoned the train for the bus.

    Take your example of 20% of passengers off the Maynooth line, that's going to be a lot more bearable, overcrowding is going to be less of an issue. After all, trains are designed to be full at peak time.
    never mind the fact that the trains will sit in the station in Heuston or Cork or Galway or wherever for an hour or so between runnings anyway, a whole 5 mins of that devoted to running around is hardly a major issue.

    In fairness to Irish Rail (and at this rate I'll accused of all sorts)... this does not seem to be happening as much as it used to be, not many trains at least are waiting around in Heuston any time I've been there recently.
    GM071class wrote: »
    It's always lovely to see the management of IÉ getting a trashing.

    This might just sum up why most people here have no problem with the problems in the article.

    People are rightly fed up with Irish Rail.

    But misdirected anger doesn't work in solving problems.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    KC61 wrote: »
    Until the next tranche of 22K sets are delivered from next year, there is insufficient rolling stock to operate extra services on the Kildare route, particularly with Pace coming on stream this year. However, this was partly due to the fact that two 3-car sets were destroyed en route from Korea to Ireland and are to be replaced in the forthcoming delivery programme.

    That element of the story is probably a tad sensationalist as the 4-tracking has delivered peak-hour improvements whereby intercity services can overtake commuter services in the event of trains being delayed rather than being kept behind them. I understand that the two outbound tracks (the old ones) are now being fully relaid so there is some time yet before the KRP is able to deliver its full potential.


    But surely the thrust of the story is the fact that after the next tranche of 22Ks are delivered next year, there still won't be any additional services provided.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    monument wrote: »
    Take your example of 20% of passengers off the Maynooth line, that's going to be a lot more bearable, overcrowding is going to be less of an issue. After all, trains are designed to be full at peak time.
    Better yes, acceptable no. Comfortable also no. Some of the trains are so stuffed that I'd hate to think of what would happen if there was a fire.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭penexpers


    dowlingm wrote: »
    You ask if 4-tracking the Kildare Line is a waste. Well, actually it is IF IT IS NOT USED AS INTENDED. The 4 tracking was intended so that IC express trains could overtake stopping commuter trains. If it's not being used for the purpose intended, it's a waste.

    It is being used for this at the moment. I have often been on a train on a commuter train on the "slow" tracks that has been overtaken by an IC train on the "fast" tracks.

    Also, part of the KRP was to revamp the signaling between Kildare and Heuston and this has delivered improvements. It now takes under a minute to cycle from green to red and back to green again whereas it used to take upwards of five minutes.

    Sure the extra capacity hasn't been delivered, but I don't think the demand is there for it at the moment. Anyone that travels on the Kildare commuter route can see that the demand isn't there (and yes I know there's an argument that by having more trains running more people will use them but I am not sure it stacks up in this case).

    I think to call the entire KRP a waste is slightly misleading.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭penexpers


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    But surely the thrust of the story is the fact that after the next tranche of 22Ks are delivered next year, there still won't be any additional services provided.

    I don't understand why 22Ks were going to be used for Hazelhatch-Heuston - my understanding is they are completelty unsuited to routes where there is frequent stopping/starting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    penexpers wrote: »
    I don't understand why 22Ks were going to be used for Hazelhatch-Heuston - my understanding is they are completelty unsuited to routes where there is frequent stopping/starting.

    The additional services weren't just Hazelhatch - Heuston. Outer suburban improvements were also planned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    But surely the thrust of the story is the fact that after the next tranche of 22Ks are delivered next year, there still won't be any additional services provided.

    I don't think that is necessarily the case - that will not be until the second half of next year and into 2012.

    Things will have changed by then.

    The article is referring to the end of 2010.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,316 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    penexpers wrote: »
    I don't understand why 22Ks were going to be used for Hazelhatch-Heuston - my understanding is they are completelty unsuited to routes where there is frequent stopping/starting.
    They are to be used on the further out suburban services - Dundalk, Longford, Athlone, Portlaoise, etc. with a higher capacity than the existing 22000s - I presume by omitting most tables. This would cascade some 29000s from those routes to Drogheda, Maynooth and Kildare / Hazelhatch services.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    penexpers wrote: »
    I don't understand why 22Ks were going to be used for Hazelhatch-Heuston - my understanding is they are completelty unsuited to routes where there is frequent stopping/starting.

    They may not be.

    The additional 22K sets will free up 29K sets used on Longford and Dundalk outer suburban services which could be used on the Heuston-Newbridge-Kildare route and replace the 22Ks currently used there.

    4 trains are needed to operate a half-hourly off-peak Heuston-Newbridge service, two more than are on the route currently.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 309 ✭✭FlameoftheWest


    monument wrote: »
    Sensationalism is a distraction. It won't be taken seriously.

    105 million Euro spent to connect Ennis to Athenry going in the wrong direction says you are wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    KC61 wrote: »
    I don't think that is necessarily the case - that will not be until the second half of next year and into 2012.

    Things will have changed by then.

    The article is referring to the end of 2010.

    The article states that the KRP will be completed later this year. (2010) It then states that planned extra trains for next year (2011) have been put on hold. An IE spokesperson is quoted as calling it "a pause in expansion that will be reletively short term".

    Both your "things will have changed by then" quote and IEs "reletively short term" are heavily dependent on an economic upswing, which is hugely unpredictable anyway.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    monument wrote: »
    Sensationalism is a distraction. It won't be taken seriously. It makes Barry Kenny's job easier, not harder. It's far easier to dismiss the valid points when such are surrounded by sensationalist nonsense. It allows others in Irish Rail and those in power feel like all of the valid points are also hyperbole.

    Barry Kennys job has always been easy because he has spent most of it backed by hundreds of millions in investment and the ability to promise the sun moon and stars. Those days are gone and I think his more agressive tone lately is due to the fact that IE are in real trouble financially and he now has to justify these savings measures and can no longer roll out the usual baloney of "after decades of under investment, we are now investing very heavily in many areas."

    He once had an answer to every question from radio listeners. He even had a cosy set up on Newstalks the right hook programme where he regularly boasted about this that and the other, often unchallenged. But the landscape is vastly different now and he's on the receiving end of the sensentionalism for a change. Will he cope? I doubt it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    The article states that the KRP will be completed later this year. (2010) It then states that planned extra trains for next year (2011) have been put on hold. An IE spokesperson is quoted as calling it "a pause in expansion that will be reletively short term".

    Both your "things will have changed by then" quote and IEs "reletively short term" are heavily dependent on an economic upswing, which is hugely unpredictable anyway.

    The point that I am making is that the earliest that extra trains could start is December 2011 as there are no trains available to operate them.

    So regardless of what is said in the article it is a red herring.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    KC61 wrote: »
    The point that I am making is that the earliest that extra trains could start is December 2011 as there are no trains available to operate them.

    I know that, but IE have confirmed that this won't be happening. So how is it a red herring?

    All additional services on the KRP have been postponed. What does it matter about when they were meant to start.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    I know that, but IE have confirmed that this won't be happening. So how is it a red herring?

    All additional services on the KRP have been postponed. What does it matter about when they were meant to start.

    I don't read it as that at all.

    Given the manner that timetables are developed within the company, the planning for the December 2011 timetable would only be in its infancy if even started yet.

    I read it as meaning that nothing will happen until after the new trains are delivered. Given that planning for timetables changes right up until the last minute, saying now that nothing will happen in the December 2011 timetable is a complete red herring.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    KC61 wrote: »
    I don't read it as that at all.

    Given the manner that timetables are developed within the company, the planning for the December 2011 timetable would only be in its infancy if even started yet.

    I read it as meaning that nothing will happen until after the new trains are delivered. Given that planning for timetables changes right up until the last minute, saying now that nothing will happen in the December 2011 timetable is a complete red herring.

    Well I think you read it wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    Well I think you read it wrong DW.

    This is a pointless discussion as it all relates to planning for a timetable change in 21 months time, by which time the plans for the new sets could completely change!

    The plain fact remains nothing can happen until the new stock arrives.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 105 ✭✭GM071class



    Barry Kennys job has always been easy because he has spent most of it backed by hundreds of millions in investment and the ability to promise the sun moon and stars. Those days are gone and I think his more agressive tone lately is due to the fact that IE are in real trouble financially and he now has to justify these savings measures and can no longer roll out the usual baloney of "after decades of under investment, we are now investing very heavily in many areas."

    He once had an answer to every question from radio listeners. He even had a cosy set up on Newstalks the right hook programme where he regularly boasted about this that and the other, often unchallenged. But the landscape is vastly different now and he's on the receiving end of the sensentionalism for a change. Will he cope? I doubt it.

    I actually texted George Hook when he had 'The King of PR' Barry Kenny on with him.
    In the text I posed the question of why its slower, by an HOUR in some cases, than it was in the 80's to get to Cork from Dublin. Especially with new carriages, newer locomotives, new track, and signalling and so on.

    The response by Barry was on short of a literary masterpiece! He said;
    "the trains are slower now due to health and safety reasons, as well the trains are now running on lines that are more congested...."

    Without the priviledge of a one-one live debate with him, this was just left alone by the Hooky-monster.

    Its amazing what he gets away with saying... Truely the PR king!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    GM071class wrote: »
    I actually texted George Hook when he had 'The King of PR' Barry Kenny on with him.
    In the text I posed the question of why its slower, by an HOUR in some cases, than it was in the 80's to get to Cork from Dublin. Especially with new carriages, newer locomotives, new track, and signalling and so on.

    The response by Barry was on short of a literary masterpiece! He said;
    "the trains are slower now due to health and safety reasons, as well the trains are now running on lines that are more congested...."

    Without the priviledge of a one-one live debate with him, this was just left alone by the Hooky-monster.

    Its amazing what he gets away with saying... Truely the PR king!!

    Yes, despite being a fan of 'The Right Hook' the unchallenged IE/Barry Kenny 'love-in' is enough to make me spew. How much are Newstalk being paid by CIE/IE for this spot? As much as the Phoenix magazine were paid in pointless double page spread adverts from CIE/IE for dropping ALL vaguely critical pieces about the company? The simple fact is that the CIE/IE Board/senior management are past the end of their useful life as is that useless prick Noel Dempsey not the MkIIIs ......or the Cravens with their 'steam' heating....:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Yes, despite being a fan of 'The Right Hook' the unchallenged IE/Barry Kenny 'love-in' is enough to make me spew. How much are Newstalk being paid by CIE/IE for this spot? As much as the Phoenix magazine were paid in pointless double page spread adverts from CIE/IE for dropping ALL vaguely critical pieces about the company? The simple fact is that the CIE/IE Board/senior management are past the end of their useful life as is that useless prick Noel Dempsey not the MkIIIs ......or the Cravens with their 'steam' heating....:D

    Can we draw the line at the cravens please.:D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,325 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Health and safety? Didn't they try and sack the chief engineer because she was too safe? :rolleyes:
    KC61 wrote: »
    The point that I am making is that the earliest that extra trains could start is December 2011 as there are no trains available to operate them.

    So regardless of what is said in the article it is a red herring.
    We have no idea what trains are available for what. There's a 2700 set being painted to look like a 22K to Keep Colman Quiet rather than being out carrying passengers (although I secretly hope even IE aren't dumb enough to do it at a time when they weren't already doing a heavy check on the set). There's Alstoms being shunted hither and yon for no apparent reason other than IE's loss of face in shoving them into North Wall or some other scrapper antechamber. IE want to eliminate a 2700 rotation by closing Rosslare-Waterford but we have no idea what they will use that crew and set to do.

    This is an organisation that chose to cram people from Waterford into 3x22 rather than do a Railway Children Refurb on a 6 car Mark 3 PP set after the wrecking of the 6x22 in Portlaoise. It's an organisation that was able to find a 22K special (which presumably had to be positioned to Galway as a special too?) to get Dempsey and the hangers on back to Dublin after the Ennis-Athenry launch. The desire to kill the Limerick Junction-Rosslare and Limerick-Ballybrophy services indicates to me that Dick F might be short of sets when Dunboyne opens later this year and the extra 22s haven't shown up yet - what's he going to do if the politicians won't let him do it?

    The Information Minister likes to dribble out information and disinformation in the manner of Steve Jobs but Steve Jobs doesn't get 40+% of his operating cash from the US government. Remember, IE already compromised the effectiveness of KRP by making it the Hazelhatch Route Project.


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