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Irish Rail exposé in Tribune

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  • 11-04-2010 11:03am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭


    Just seen the Sunday papers. The Tribune is giving Irish Rail a right old going over in its news section.

    The articles won't be online for ages yet but one story claims that the company has scrapped its KRP plans in terms of extra services and Dempsey is closing Waterford-Rosslare to meet FF's promises in the West.

    The second article is a page long and the introduction is "Iarnrod Eireann is going nowhere fast. Despite €500m in spending and grandiose promises, journey times are rising and a fleet of carraiges lies decaying in the sidings as overcrowding gets worse".

    Well worth reading and plenty of ammo for the south-east rail campaigners.
    Tagged:


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 932 ✭✭✭paddyland


    And yet Dempsey has the gall to stand before people and lie that he always cared about rail services.

    The man tells lies habitually, purely for the stunt of furthering his own political career ambitions.

    The transport industry in Ireland will never know where it stands, for good or ill, under a minister who tells lies.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    Ah lovely, just planning an early evening trip to a beer garden, The Tribune will have to be bought en-route. Good to see a paper actually reporting the facts and not reporting just another photoshoot:rolleyes:.

    The MK3s lying in the sidings of Heuston is a shambles. The majority of intercity journeys in the UK are made on MK3 refurbs and yet the IÉ marketing spin makes it look like they are too "old" for us.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Fabulous set of articles there from Ken Griffin. (Rail Users Ireland even look a bit more interesting.);)

    The WRC has a lot to answer for now as predicted by myself and a colleague 6 years ago.

    Q roars of abuse from the WRC supporters.:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    By the way, these articles aren't about the WRC, but much of the information contained in them and statements by the minister clearly demonstrate how IE and Government got their priorities all wrong. Now that the money is gone, the culling begins.

    KRP is dead for now. No increased capacity. Some of the next batch of 22Ks are heading to the WRC instead of increased services on the Heuston suburban corridor.

    Rosslare - Waterford is being closed so the books can be balanced. The loss on that line is being transferred to the WRC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    Great article (if a little sensationalist) with lots of things I've never seen reported in the mainstream media before. Most of it fed directly to them by RUI too, with Mark Gleeson quoted a lot. Fair play to RUI for getting their fingers out and the Tribune for running with this.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Hungerford wrote: »
    Jthe company has scrapped its KRP plans in terms of extra services

    Thats because there is no plan to install the "missing link" quad track west of Kylemore Road and of course no electrification either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    I bought the Tribune just for this story when I saw it on the cover. It's incredible how CIE can stand over these decisions, and there has to be more accountability at government. I wouldn't hold my breath.

    Like yourselves, I've been reading similar stories on this forum for years. There's always some crummy excuse the IE roll out to avoid taking the blame, when it's patently obvious to outsiders that they made a mess of things.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Steviemak




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    And this one.

    http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/apr/11/iarnrod-eireann-derails-420m-line-upgrade/

    I'm off for a drink. You'd need one after that reading.:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,575 ✭✭✭lord lucan


    This line from Fearn really got me going:

    "Our Mark 3 carriages... are close to the end of their useful life unless one spends a lot of money on refurbishment. However, a Mark 3 carriage in itself is inert and needs something to pull it, a locomotive. That is a very traditional way of doing things because, given the relatively short distances we have in Ireland, it means uncoupling the locomotive and putting it to the other end," he said.

    Holy jaysus,he makes it sound like it's some ancient ritual that holds back modern railways. On a suburban run with a short turnaround railcars make sense but on an InterCity run to Cork it doesn't take an age to uncouple the loco,run it around and hook back up at the far end. Keeping loops at termini for this won't blow a massive hole in IE's budget and would enable them to use currently mothballed 201's and MKIII's and free up 22K's for the Kildare Route and WRC.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Upon mature reflection and without reading the Turbine articles - yet - the only rational conclusion that one can come to is that Dick Fearn is a total knob like Barry Kenny. Certainly in my experience of dealing with him he has been a model of CIE evasiveness. Sack him, Lynch and that arsehole Dempsey and the railways might have a fighting chance. Oh and lets sack that useless prick Ciaran Cuffe while were at it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Has Fearn never heard of push-pull operation?

    One of the MkIII sets was even converted to run in this configuration! It's as popular as ever here in Germany for regional routes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,062 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    We were doing push-pull when Fearn came in, ffs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭penexpers


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    KRP is dead for now. No increased capacity. Some of the next batch of 22Ks are heading to the WRC instead of increased services on the Heuston suburban corridor.

    22Ks would be a bit wasted on the Hazelhatch-Heuston route I would have thought?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    murphaph wrote: »
    One of the MkIII sets was even converted to run in this configuration! It's as popular as ever here in Germany for regional routes.

    This was the Mk3a "Cú Na Mara" set; it was wired for push-pull. They've all been scrapped now except for a few sitting behind a hotel in Naas.

    And yes, that bit from Dick Fearn just proved what I thought of him. He's anti-locomotive. I'm all for replacement of life expired stock but the Mk3s aren't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    From the article
    An Iarnród Éireann spokesman confirmed the company has scrapped plans to run extra services after the completion of the €420m Kildare route project later this year.

    The project had originally secured state funding on the basis that more trains would be run. It is understood that some of the extra trains bought for the project will now be diverted to the Limerick-Galway line.

    The mind boggles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    penexpers wrote: »
    22Ks would be a bit wasted on the Hazelhatch-Heuston route I would have thought?

    That was the basis under which Fearn secured the funding for the additional stock. I don't think that the articles are that sensationalist, there's a lot of stuff that wasn't included in them.

    The court cases were only mentioned in passing and the WRC didn't get much of a look in.

    I think there's probably scope for further pieces and I think we should contact the Tribune asking for more of the same. It's very rare that a newspaper examines CIE in such depth these days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 309 ✭✭FlameoftheWest


    Steviemak wrote: »

    "perennially dysfunctional"

    Bravo Ken Griffin! The best and most honest piece ever done on this monstrosity.

    Wonderful. There are some good journalists left in Ireland it would seem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 309 ✭✭FlameoftheWest


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    And this one.

    http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/apr/11/iarnrod-eireann-derails-420m-line-upgrade/

    I'm off for a drink. You'd need one after that reading.:D


    Meanwhile, the company is refurbishing a set of carriages especially for a trainspotters' excursion on the new western rail corridor.
    The company is happy to continue tradition when it suits, however, and it is currently refurbishing a set of Mark 3 carriages for a trainspotters' excursion later this month. The carriages will be immediately mothballed once the event is over.

    Have one for me. The truth always comes out in the end.

    May I suggest a cocktail. A Tarquina Sunrise. (more like sunset...)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 609 ✭✭✭GA361


    I really do miss those orange yokes:(

    Seriously though, this is really idiotic on the part of IR.When you consider that the original Cravens were in use for around 45 years (until 2006) or so without any bother, it really seems like absolute nonsense to withdraw the Mark 3s ( and Mark 2s, imho) after only about 20 years and 35 years respectively, in service. Nonsense :mad:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,323 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    murphaph wrote: »
    Has Fearn never heard of push-pull operation?

    One of the MkIII sets was even converted to run in this configuration! It's as popular as ever here in Germany for regional routes.
    There is a bunch of push-pull sets - all the Mark 4s (8 sets), De-Dietrichs (4 sets, but used as 3 sets) and I think 4 sets of Mark 3s. Admittedly, the Mark 3 Push-Pull sets don't have full air-conditioning, but surely they can be used with the other Mark 3 carriages.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Victor wrote: »
    There is a bunch of push-pull sets - all the Mark 4s (8 sets), De-Dietrichs (4 sets, but used as 3 sets) and I think 4 sets of Mark 3s. Admittedly, the Mark 3 Push-Pull sets don't have full air-conditioning, but surely they can be used with the other Mark 3 carriages.

    Not in their current form. The non push-pull Mark 3s don't have the AAR cabling/sockets required for push-pull operation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 309 ✭✭FlameoftheWest


    Karsini wrote: »
    Not in their current form. The non push-pull Mark 3s don't have the AAR cabling/sockets required for push-pull operation.

    Is this a big deal technically and financially? Sounds to me CIE did not even need to buy the MK4s at all.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Is this a big deal technically and financially? Sounds to me CIE did not even need to buy the MK4s at all.

    I'm not sure of the cost but it's theoretically possible. Here's two photos to show what I mean; in the photo of the push-pull coach you can see the cabling beside the gangway connection. I think they could have refurbished Mk3 sets rather than buying the Mk4s, of which the ride quality problems are yet to be sorted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,326 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    The Mark 3 fleet is essentially split in two - the hauled aircon 100mph sets hauling a gen van and the PP no-aircon no genvan 75mph sets. What's needed is a best of both worlds - 100mph aircon PP with no generator vans which is what the Mark 4 fleet is.

    They are politically inconvenient because obviously IE sold the government on the 22Ks replacing, not supplementing the Mk3s while stringing the public along with the notion that 48 carriages would be used to bulk out Enterprise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    The mk3 issue is a difficult one.

    On the one hand, if 22000s hadn't been purchased, we could have ended up with a situation a few years down the road where the mk3s became life expired and no cash availble to replace them; though refurbhishment could have been a possibility as has been suggested. However in a modern operating environment, mk3s have plenty of cons compared to a 22000. Running round, more resources (guards, shunters). In a station like Heuston you would need at least one shunting locomotive in attendance. Trains can't be split as easy (ideal for off peak services - consider the need to attach generator vans, etc...) Railcars definitely reduce costs, and had we waited a few years we may have been stuck with an aging loco hauled fleet eating up resources. And railcars have been the preffered choice in many other countries (not all mind) for many years now. So as for Dick Fearn being pro-railcar I don't blame him in principle.

    On the other hand I do agree that it is hard to justify the scrapping of push-pull stock barely 20 years old, not to mention the storing of diesel locos even newer than that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    They could have refurbed a few Mk3 sets, good for another 15 years easy. Then top and tail the sets with the excess locos like they do in the UK.

    There is not enough 22k sets as there is and even with the top up batch it will be tight. Alot of the 3 cars sets doing the rounds would be better off as 6 car sets.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Not that that sensationalist?

    The articles bring up valid points, but this is clouded by sensationalism and trying to cover too much in too little space. And overcrowding has become a meaningless, overused word -- it has to be properly quantified if it is to mean anything, which has not being done here.
    "...the Sunday Tribune has uncovered an apparent culture of waste stretching to the top of the organisation, which has cost the taxpayer almost €500m in recent years"

    Four tracking the Kildare line is Irish Rail's "culture of waste"?

    Ken and most of you already know well the KRP is really part of the Dart expansion project. Yes, it is a bloody nonsense that no extra Commuter services are planned once the KRP is finished later this year, but that's far, far away from the projecting amounting to "waste".
    It also has a fleet of over 100 modern carriages lying idle across the country which it refuses to use despite continuing overcrowding at peak times on Dublin commuter routes.

    100 modern carriages? Mark 3 carriages are modern?
    On top of this, 5% of the city's Dart fleet – worth around €20m – is inoperable due to uncorrected manufacturing faults.

    Is this really Irish Rail's fault?
    Meanwhile, the company is refurbishing a set of carriages especially for a trainspotters' excursion on the new western rail corridor. Its economy drive, however, looks set to begin with the axing of rail services between Waterford and Rosslare.

    This is quite unfair, with this near the start of the article and Irish Rail's response is left to the end. And near the end we're not told the Irish Rail admit to refurbishing (which means more than just "modest spruce-up".
    Meanwhile, overcrowding continues to be a problem given the company's refusal to use its Mark 3 fleet of carriages which are practically identical to those used in Britain on prestigious rail routes such as the Great Western main line between London and Bristol and the east coast main line between London and Edinburgh.

    And there's no "overcrowding" in the UK?
    "Shankill is the first stop after Bray but you often can't get on the train. It's like a concentration-camp train and it's exactly the same going home in the evenings".

    The overcrowding has become so bad that the service Lafferty normally gets – the 8.15am from Shankill – is often delayed by five minutes once it reaches the city centre because passengers literally struggle to get on it.

    Like a concentration-camp train?

    110511.jpg
    110512.jpg
    110513.jpg

    Is everybody still sure the article is not that sensationalist?
    The revelations come as two senior executives are suing the company in court for unlawful dismissal

    I don't think that is quite right? One was sent home on full pay, not quite unlawful dismissed.

    According to Callan, many of his fellow commuters have abandoned the rail service in favour of private coaches in the wake of the Malahide viaduct collapse last August.

    "They found that private coaches provided a level of comfort and quality of service that far exceeds what Iarnród éireann can provide.

    "It is also very expensive to travel by rail compared with bus between Dublin and Drogheda," he said.

    "Overcrowding is a particular issue in the evenings. In most cases, the Drogheda trains are full to capacity at Connolly and people are sandwiched into the trains. But there's no sign of anything being done to fix it."

    Sorry to be crude on this, but there's too many contradictions here to let it go...

    Many have abandoned using Northern line commuter trains, but even with a cheaper and apparently better coach service overcrowding is still an issue on the train service?

    I know people up along the Northern line commuter. Sure there are problems with trains, but it seems to be a pastime to overstate things abou the trains up there. I keep getting told trains will not run on time, but every time I use the train to get out there it's on time or within a min or two from being on time. These kind of myths and exaggerations that are spread around will just push people away from using public transport at anytime, and they won't do anything to help solve real problems.
    These comments will provide little comfort to Wexford commuters, however – they will soon be speaking of the Waterford-to-Rosslare line in the past tense as they ponder whether any of the money used on dud Darts, unneeded capacity and the indiscriminate purchasing of new carriages could have saved their service.

    Hyperbole. Wexford commuters? Again, were the Dart problems Irish Rail's fault?

    Again, I'm not saying the articles are not covering valid points -- but the sensationalism and trying to cover too much at once, distracts from the valid points.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    monument wrote: »
    Not that that sensationalist?

    The articles bring up valid points, but this is clouded by sensationalism and trying to cover too much in too little space. And overcrowding has become a meaningless, overused word -- it has to be properly quantified if it is to mean anything, which has not being done here.



    Four tracking the Kildare line is Irish Rail's "culture of waste"?

    Ken and most of you already know well the KRP is really part of the Dart expansion project. Yes, it is a bloody nonsense that no extra Commuter services are planned once the KRP is finished later this year, but that's far, far away from the projecting amounting to "waste".



    100 modern carriages? Mark 3 carriages are modern?



    Is this really Irish Rail's fault?



    This is quite unfair, with this near the start of the article and Irish Rail's response is left to the end. And near the end we're not told the Irish Rail admit to refurbishing (which means more than just "modest spruce-up".



    And there's no "overcrowding" in the UK?



    Like a concentration-camp train?

    110511.jpg
    110512.jpg
    110513.jpg

    Is everybody still sure the article is not that sensationalist?



    I don't think that is quite right? One was sent home on full pay, not quite unlawful dismissed.




    Sorry to be crude on this, but there's too many contradictions here to let it go...

    Many have abandoned using Northern line commuter trains, but even with a cheaper and apparently better coach service overcrowding is still an issue on the train service?

    I know people up along the Northern line commuter. Sure there are problems with trains, but it seems to be a pastime to overstate things abou the trains up there. I keep getting told trains will not run on time, but every time I use the train to get out there it's on time or within a min or two from being on time. These kind of myths and exaggerations that are spread around will just push people away from using public transport at anytime, and they won't do anything to help solve real problems.



    Hyperbole. Wexford commuters? Again, were the Dart problems Irish Rail's fault?

    Again, I'm not saying the articles are not covering valid points -- but the sensationalism and trying to cover too much at once, distracts from the valid points.

    You haven't actually contradicted the articles. To concentrate on the "sensationalist or not" aspect of it is irrelevant. All the points made are valid. Full stop.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    You haven't actually contradicted the articles. To concentrate on the "sensationalist or not" aspect of it is irrelevant. All the points made are valid. Full stop.

    It isn't irrelevant.

    Take the "like a concentration-camp train" comment: Do you think the Dart at peak times is comparable to concentration-camp trains?


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