Why don't we leave the EU? Join the Swiss in EFTA

DaBrow

The Corinthian wrote: »

Of course there is a thing as blind nationalism - it's called jingoism and seeks to motivate against all reason in the name of an abstract concept.

Then why did you introduce genetic terms such as ancestry and jus sanguinis to your definition of Irishness if race is so unimportant?

How about these Links so you can change that mind... If you are willing to properly look?

http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreement.aspx
http://www.efta.int/about-efta/history.aspx
http://www.eeagrants.org/id/14
http://www.brugesgroup.com/mediacentre/index.live?article=10488
http://tfiafc.blogspot.com/2005/04/efta-vs-eu-163-words.html
http://www.currentconcerns.ch/index.php?id=864
http://www.udi.no/templates/Tema.aspx?id=9353
http://www.eu-norway.org/ARKIV/newsarchives/EEA_agreement_facts/
http://teameurope.info/node/713

If you wish to remain on topic and avoid just attacking the posters, that is more than enough information.

.............

It's funny how People with a chip on their shoulder or prejudice against Nationalism believe in the term Blind Nationalism; Multiculturalism as evidenced in the continent is a complete disaster and you need only look at the balkans to find out the consequences... A house built on division can never stand.

"Blind Nationalism" is or the accusation of Nazism in disguise... Just a slur

Humans are a Race.... Just as Klingons, Vulcans and Cardassians are a Race.

All people on this planet are part of the Human Race... A Universal Umbrella Term for diverse Ethnic Groups that are prevalent across particular geographic areas.

Irish People are an ethnic Group and idigenous to Ireland... The Irish Diaspora are no different and I would wish they had greater rights as my fellow countrymen... I believe People are Human Beings and
Race is a word I reject because of this.

The Corinthian

DaBrow wrote: »

If you wish to remain on topic and avoid just attacking the posters, that is more than enough information.

Enough information? Are you trying to preach?

I don't see the point of most of those links, other than a few generic information pages from the EFTA Web site the rest appear to opinion pieces (and rants from blogs). None of which seem terribly impressive.

It's funny how People with a chip on their shoulder or prejudice against Nationalism believe in the term Blind Nationalism; Multiculturalism as evidenced in the continent is a complete disaster and you need only look at the balkans to find out the consequences... A house built on division can never stand.

Who said I supported Multiculturalism? Sounds like as straw man to me.

"Blind Nationalism" is or the accusation of Nazism in disguise... Just a slur

No, blind nationalism is just that - blind nationalism

Humans are a Race.... Just as Klingons, Vulcans and Cardassians are a Race.

No. Humans are a species, Homo sapiens. Klingons, Vulcans and Cardassians are fictional.

Irish People are an ethnic Group and idigenous to Ireland...

Actually, Irish people are several ethnic groups indigenous to Ireland, including Scots-Irish and travelers.

The Irish Diaspora are no different and I would wish they had greater rights as my fellow countrymen...

Actually they are different. Most are not indigenous to Ireland and have not been so for generations.

I believe People are Human Beings and Race is a word I reject because of this.

Then why did you introduce genetic terms such as ancestry and jus sanguinis to your definition of Irishness if race is so unimportant?

Will you answer this time?

DaBrow

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually, Irish people are several ethnic groups indigenous to Ireland, including Scots-Irish and travelers.

Actually they are different. Most are not indigenous to Ireland and have not been so for generations.

Then why did you introduce genetic terms such as ancestry and jus sanguinis to your definition of Irishness if race is so unimportant?

Will you answer this time?

Travelers are Irish, The Scots originated from Ireland and if you actually look into a programme called "The Blood of the Irish"... You'll find 80% of Irish people are direct descendants of the original inhabitants and the other 20% have small traces of Viking, Norman and Spanish ancestry.

Jus Sanguinis means Right of Blood... Why shouldn't Diasporas have rights to return to their ancestral home?

(classification of human beings) Race is defined as this :the categorization of humans into populations or ancestral groups on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics.[1] The physical features commonly seen as indicating race are salient visual traits such as skin color, cranial or facial features and hair texture.
http://www.virginia.edu/woodson/courses/aas102%20%28spring%2001%29/articles/AAPA_race.pdf

It used to imply superiority and inferiority, which I object and discard completely.

Ethnicity is different because it is specific and That is a separate subject and NOT Relevant to the point of this thread... Demanding something better.
...................

You are just trying to derail this thread and I won't give you the satisfaction....

All your posts have been are just attacks and no constructive arguement to build a valid opposing case against leaving the EU.

You are just acting like a Troll who has no intention of engaging in debate,

The Corinthian

DaBrow wrote: »

Travelers are Irish, The Scots originated from Ireland and if you actually look into a programme called "The Blood of the Irish"... You'll find 80% of Irish people are direct descendants of the original inhabitants and the other 20% have small traces of Viking, Norman and Spanish ancestry.

Do you actually know what an ethnic group is? It is not simply a racial or genetic term, but often includes also cultural and religious factors and in this regard Scots-Irish and travelers are different ethnic groups.

You cant seem to get past the old genetics though, I note.

Jus Sanguinis means Right of Blood... Why shouldn't Diasporas have rights to return to their ancestral home?

It's not their home. It never was. It might have been the home of their great-great-great grandfather, but their home is somewhere else now. Culturally they are not Irish - Irish-Americans, for example, share very little in common culturally with someone who grew up in Ireland.

Instead, your emphasis is on a genetic lineage, regardless of whether this person actually shares any commonality with his so-called countrymen.

You are just trying to derail this thread and I won't give you the satisfaction....

No, I am asking a direct question as your definition of Irish seems to be entirely based on genetics. All of the criteria you've used are essentially racialist, with little or no reference to the other criteria that make up an ethnic group, let alone a nationality.

Best bit though is when you tried to use the Star Trek definition of a race as if it held some form of credibility. Gave me a real belly laugh.

It's relevance to the thread is evident as it betrays your true motivations for leaving the EU.

DaBrow

The Corinthian wrote: »

It's not their home. It never was. It might have been the home of their great-great-great grandfather, but their home is somewhere else now. Culturally they are not Irish - Irish-Americans, for example, share very little in common culturally with someone who grew up in Ireland.

Instead, your emphasis is on a genetic lineage, regardless of whether this person actually shares any commonality with his so-called countrymen.

No, I am asking a direct question as your definition of Irish seems to be entirely based on genetics. All of the criteria you've used are essentially racialist, with little or no reference to the other criteria that make up an ethnic group, let alone a nationality.

Best bit though is when you tried to use the Star Trek definition of a race as if it held some form of credibility. Gave me a real belly laugh.

It's relevance to the thread is evident as it betrays your true motivations for leaving the EU.

The only person close to being racist here is you... Against your own people.

The irish Diaspora have helped this country function through its darkest days and you refuse to acknowledge them. Allowing them to return is a sincere way of paying back their kindness... I have Family in the US who relate to Ireland and call themselves Irish; they culturally have alot in common with Irish people and practise the same traditions my family here in Ireland are familiar with, you have no right to deny them that right.

I've always supported our Diasporas right to return home... Even before Lisbon was rammed down our throat and I supported the EU.

The Generation Game shows how in touch with Ireland they are and how proud they are of their heritage, strong enough to return and build the country.

It's confirmed then... You have nothing to contribute to this discussion and I will officially ignore all your responses because you can't stay on topic.

What I have done is distinguish the difference between Race (Skin Colour + Appearance) & Ethnicity (Distinct Family Origin and Common Traits)... Completely irrelevant BTW
...................

EFTA States offer more freedom and power to their people, which you don't support or care about.

You haven't even looked at the links which are based upon fact, because you are afraid that you will agree with it...

I support leaving the EU because I'm sick of the direction is going: It demands more power and less rights to its citizens, everyday it appears to resemble a Capitalist Version of the USSR.

I don't want expansion; I don't want the EU to have the power to over-ride my country's soverignty and lecture us about what we should do and what we cannot.

Also, I want my Country back along with it's own interest rates and currency which can set its own value and be free of outside interference.

P.S.

Look at the EFTA links (5 of which are official), if you're brave enough and give 10 unique good reasons why we should stay in the EU.

Can you do that?

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

The Euro rate of exchange is too strong for Irish Exports to Grow... Everything here apart from fuel is at least 10% more expensive than in the North or Britain. Why are we holding onto a currency we have no control over?

Ireland has very little idigenous Industry... Our entire Economic Power relies on the UK & America whom we trade with on a higher level than our EU Neighbours. We cannot compete because we are too expensive to purchase goods & services from but we are importing like crazy! Why has no-one realised?

We had these problems before with our own exchange rate, around 1996/97 IIRC, 4/5 years after devaluation.. Why swap one currency we don't have much control over, for another one?

As regards indigenous industry, it's pathetic. We've had ten years of trading with with our biggest economic trading bloc, without currency risks and multi nationals still represent something like 80/90% of our exports. Too busy building houses I'm afraid.

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

Also, I want my Country back along with it's own interest rates and currency which can set its own value and be free of outside interference.

You are looking for the impossible in that respect, I'm afraid.

DaBrow

K-9 wrote: »

We had these problems before with our own exchange rate, around 1996/97 IIRC, 4/5 years after devaluation.. Why swap one currency we don't have much control over, for another one?

As regards indigenous industry, it's pathetic. We've had ten years of trading with with our biggest economic trading bloc, without currency risks and multi nationals still represent something like 80/90% of our exports. Too busy building houses I'm afraid.

Exactly why we'd be better off getting our resources back...

Iceland may have had a bang but they are recovering, the reason why is their currency is weaker and it is a great place to visit at this moment.

Businesses are flocking to take advantage of the low-cost base they now have, their fishing industry is helping them get through the bad weather at the moment... They don't want EU Membership because it would mean giving it up.

K-9 wrote: »

You are looking for the impossible in that respect, I'm afraid.

I don't know now....

You should see the first page, I think our days in the Eurozone are numbered and the reason is that the idea of a single currency for 16 different countries is doomed to fail.

The Corinthian

DaBrow wrote: »

The only person close to being racist here is you... Against your own people.

Huh? That makes no sense - I've actually rejected your narrow racial definition of Irish.

The irish Diaspora have helped this country function through its darkest days and you refuse to acknowledge them.

How did they do that exactly? Giving money to 'the cause'?

I have Family in the US who relate to Ireland and call themselves Irish; they culturally have alot in common with Irish people and practise the same traditions my family here in Ireland are familiar with, you have no right to deny them that right.

What traditions? Christmas? Halloween? St Patrick's Day? Give me a break.

They're not Irish. They're American. They may hold onto to a few scraps of traditions from the old country, but the old country moved on. Without them.

It's confirmed then... You have nothing to contribute to this discussion and I will officially ignore all your responses because you can't stay on topic.

I think you are more likely to ignore my responses because you do not like how they reflect upon you.

DaBrow

The Corinthian wrote: »

Huh? That makes no sense - I've actually rejected your narrow racial definition of Irish.

How did they do that exactly? Giving money to 'the cause'?

They're not Irish. They're American. They may hold onto to a few scraps of traditions from the old country, but the old country moved on. Without them.

I think you are more likely to ignore my responses because you do not like how they reflect upon you.

I have lived abroad and I can from greater experience than you; confirm what being Irish is away from home.

The Diaspora sent money to keep the country afloat in the form of remittances every week... They still do that to this day.

You forget Article 2 of our constitution:

"Article 2
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage."

Most Irish People agree with the latter part and intentionally with wisdom supported scrapping the stupid law of allowing Anyone with an irish Born-Child to Claim Citizenship, because it was very often achieved through dishonest means.

I have no wish to communicate with you because, you are not mature to actually debate the subject or deliberately attempt to derail the topic discussed because there is no opposing case for EFTA.
..............

I see you can't find any reasons to stay in the EU... Good Luck with that!!

The Corinthian

DaBrow wrote: »

I have lived abroad and I can from greater experience than you; confirm what being Irish is away from home.

What an arrogant assumption from someone who seems to have no clue about me.

The Diaspora sent money to keep the country afloat in the form of remittances every week...

This would be that self-sufficient country you were speaking of earlier...

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

Exactly why we'd be better off getting our resources back...

Iceland may have had a bang but they are recovering, the reason why is their currency is weaker and it is a great place to visit at this moment.

Businesses are flocking to take advantage of the low-cost base they now have, their fishing industry is helping them get through the bad weather at the moment... They don't want EU Membership because it would mean giving it up.




I don't know now....

You should see the first page, I think our days in the Eurozone are numbered and the reason is that the idea of a single currency for 16 different countries is doomed to fail.

Fair enough points, but again, we devalued around 92 and 4/5 years later we where back at square one.

I suppose you'd need to ask people from Iceland what it is like there. They had their referendum over the Icesave bank but can't access IMF and Scandinavian loans until they sort out a deal.

The fishing industry argument is often brought up alright. Wonder how their farming and multi national sector is getting on?

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

So what you're saying is this:

Yes, America and Britain make up the largest Export Markets that we have and the costs of goods and services from Here... Are more expensive than elsewhere? So they are not in anyway put off or will shop elsewhere in europe, even if they find the exact same product for a lower price and in the same quality?

Our Exports to them have plummetted and that has caused us a huge amount of pain... The Eurozone didn't even grow last year and shows no sign of improving soon... How can the eurozone be our biggest training partner?

They make up 32% and the UK & US combined make up 37% between the two.. Most of our trade is outside the Euro currency.

Ireland had the Punt fixed at the rate of €1.27 before conversion, I don't see how we can't bring back the Punt and pay it off at the rate of conversion.

The currency could tumble, but we would be able to pay off our debts and actually recover like the Icelanders are doing with a weaker Icelandic Currency.

The ECB has rates which do not represent our economic conditions and the rate of exchange is killing us... We are still too expensive to visit as a country.

OK, it's funny how you see 32% as not that significant, but emphasise 18% for the UK and USA. That to me, shows you aren't using logic in this topic.

Plus you seem to think everything is rosey with Britain and doomed in the Euro. There are signs of recovery in European countries, just like them, there are also poor figures coming out, just like them.

Now there is another way of looking at this. The value of our exports since joining the EEC has grown massively, even allowing for inflation etc. At that stage about 60% of our trade was with the UK. Things have changed to a situation that we now have a third of our trade with an economic bloc with one currency. The EEC and the Euro has been a success for our exports.

Why lose the advantages of having a third of our trade within the Euro?

What we need to be doing is using the advantages of being a member of a strong international currency and using it, not alone to create new markets in the Euro, but also Japan, China etc.

DaBrow

K-9 wrote: »

OK, it's funny how you see 32% as not that significant, but emphasise 18% for the UK and USA. That to me, shows you aren't using logic in this topic.

Plus you seem to think everything is rosey with Britain and doomed in the Euro. There are signs of recovery in European countries, just like them, there are also poor figures coming out, just like them.

Now there is another way of looking at this. The value of our exports since joining the EEC has grown massively, even allowing for inflation etc. At that stage about 60% of our trade was with the UK. Things have changed to a situation that we now have a third of our trade with an economic bloc with one currency. The EEC and the Euro has been a success for our exports.

Why lose the advantages of having a third of our trade within the Euro?

What we need to be doing is using the advantages of being a member of a strong international currency and using it, not alone to create new markets in the Euro, but also Japan, China etc.

What I'm saying is that 37% of Ireland's Exports go to the UK and the US... which is higher than the Eurozone and having a currency which is too pricey for British and Americans to puchase goods and services from Ireland is not helping us.

K-9... The fact is that Bloomberg, Societé Generale and CitiBank have over the last four months stated that Ireland along with Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal are not stable.

We will either leave the Eurozone or be forced out because we are so turbulent, Greece took a tumble today because they now have more debt to raise and that only strengthens why we should consider leaving for fear of defaulting.

Fact is we cannot function in the eurozone, we have no control over its value and the strong rate against the dollar and pound sterling are killing us... Tourism has gone down the drain and other industries that rely on foreign visitors.

EFTA as a Bloc has exclusive Trade Agreements with the Likes of Japan & Korea, they might be small but these agreements have allowed them to have favourable trade with each country.

Please look back at the earlier links I posted... If Greece Defaults or any of the other troubled countries, the Euro will implode because when one state fails, the rest will follow.

maggy_thatcher

Pulling out of the EU would require a constitutional amendment (to stop making the EU law paramount), so you'd have to persuade the rest of the people to agree with you.

In the very unlikely event of this succeeding, what I would imagine happening is that before the results of the referendum came out, there would be a run on every single bank in the country as everybody empties their savings accounts, transferring them to banks that are going to remain in the EU (so as to keep their money in Euros).

Such a run would bankrupt the banks (even more than they already are!), and as most of them are practically nationalized right now, would either bankrupt the country, or trigger the bank guarantee scheme to cover all these savings. At this point, we'd still be in Euro mode (as this would be occurring before the departure), so we couldn't just cause the reincarnated Punt to just be worthless...

Scofflaw

DaBrow wrote: »

What I'm saying is that 37% of Ireland's Exports go to the UK and the US... which is higher than the Eurozone and having a currency which is too pricey for British and Americans to puchase goods and services from Ireland is not helping us.

K-9... The fact is that Bloomberg, Societé Generale and CitiBank have over the last four months stated that Ireland along with Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal are not stable.

We will either leave the Eurozone or be forced out because we are so turbulent, Greece took a tumble today because they now have more debt to raise and that only strengthens why we should consider leaving for fear of defaulting.

Fact is we cannot function in the eurozone, we have no control over its value and the strong rate against the dollar and pound sterling are killing us... Tourism has gone down the drain and other industries that rely on foreign visitors.

EFTA as a Bloc has exclusive Trade Agreements with the Likes of Japan & Korea, they might be small but these agreements have allowed them to have favourable trade with each country.

Please look back at the earlier links I posted... If Greece Defaults or any of the other troubled countries, the Euro will implode because when one state fails, the rest will follow.

It's already been pointed out to you that the earlier links you posted contained predictions based on assumptions that have not come to be, and that the claim that Societé Generale or Bloomberg have as companies claimed what you say they've claimed isn't borne out even by the links you've posted - it's clear, instead, that at best we are talking about the opinions of individual analysts, and contrarian ones at that.

You're assuming that the euro will fail, and seeking statements from others that "support" your position. When those sources change their position, you abandon them, rather than updating your own position. While, clearly, the very existence of the euro means it is capable of failure, you are not predicting that failure in any meaningful sense - you're simply saying it will fail because you wish that to be the case. That casts very strong doubt on your ability to predict what life might be like for Ireland in an EFTA/EEA arrangement rather than the EU.

regards,
Scofflaw

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

What I'm saying is that 37% of Ireland's Exports go to the UK and the US... which is higher than the Eurozone and having a currency which is too pricey for British and Americans to puchase goods and services from Ireland is not helping us.

K-9... The fact is that Bloomberg, Societé Generale and CitiBank have over the last four months stated that Ireland along with Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal are not stable.

We will either leave the Eurozone or be forced out because we are so turbulent, Greece took a tumble today because they now have more debt to raise and that only strengthens why we should consider leaving for fear of defaulting.

Fact is we cannot function in the eurozone, we have no control over its value and the strong rate against the dollar and pound sterling are killing us... Tourism has gone down the drain and other industries that rely on foreign visitors.

EFTA as a Bloc has exclusive Trade Agreements with the Likes of Japan & Korea, they might be small but these agreements have allowed them to have favourable trade with each country.

Please look back at the earlier links I posted... If Greece Defaults or any of the other troubled countries, the Euro will implode because when one state fails, the rest will follow.

The UK is a declining market for us, the Euro rising. It is as simple as that.

60 odd million versus a 300 million Euro market.

Why would you abandon the main reason for our biggest economic bloc, to save a dying market?

maggy_thatcher

DaBrow wrote: »

What I'm saying is that 37% of Ireland's Exports go to the UK and the US... which is higher than the Eurozone and having a currency which is too pricey for British and Americans to puchase goods and services from Ireland is not helping us.

From the CSO
Country|Imports |Exports
UK|€19,202,700,000|€15,864,300,000
Rest of EU|€17,353,000,000|€37,976,300,000
US|€6,762,800,000|€16,674,300,000
Rest of the world|€14,266,300,000|€15,879,500,000
Total|€57,584,800,000|€86,394,400,000


By far our biggest export destination is the EU. Our biggest import source is the UK. If we dropped out of the euro, our import bill would skyrocket as we had to keep purchasing sterling with a rapidly decreasing currency, while our export revenue would fall as we'd be providing goods cheaper...is that really what you want?

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

What I'm saying is that 37% of Ireland's Exports go to the UK and the US... which is higher than the Eurozone and having a currency which is too pricey for British and Americans to puchase goods and services from Ireland is not helping us.

K-9... The fact is that Bloomberg, Societé Generale and CitiBank have over the last four months stated that Ireland along with Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal are not stable.

We will either leave the Eurozone or be forced out because we are so turbulent, Greece took a tumble today because they now have more debt to raise and that only strengthens why we should consider leaving for fear of defaulting.

Fact is we cannot function in the eurozone, we have no control over its value and the strong rate against the dollar and pound sterling are killing us... Tourism has gone down the drain and other industries that rely on foreign visitors.

EFTA as a Bloc has exclusive Trade Agreements with the Likes of Japan & Korea, they might be small but these agreements have allowed them to have favourable trade with each country.

Please look back at the earlier links I posted... If Greece Defaults or any of the other troubled countries, the Euro will implode because when one state fails, the rest will follow.

Yes, but you are adding 2 declining markets and ignoring the growing market. No logic to it at all!

We have absolutely zero control over our own currency. I'll make the point for a third time, we devalued in 92, 4/5 years later, the punt was worth £1.10 Stg, about, Euro for the Great British pound.

DaBrow

K-9 wrote: »

The UK is a declining market for us, the Euro rising. It is as simple as that.

60 odd million versus a 300 million Euro market.

Why would you abandon the main reason for our biggest economic bloc, to save a dying market?

The UK is out of recession and the Eurozone failed to Grow, they are not solidly strong but they are better than us and alot of the european Neighbours for sure.

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's already been pointed out to you that the earlier links you posted contained predictions based on assumptions that have not come to be, and that the claim that Societé Generale or Bloomberg have as companies claimed what you say they've claimed isn't borne out even by the links you've posted - it's clear, instead, that at best we are talking about the opinions of individual analysts, and contrarian ones at that.

You're assuming that the euro will fail, and seeking statements from others that "support" your position. When those sources change their position, you abandon them, rather than updating your own position. While, clearly, the very existence of the euro means it is capable of failure, you are not predicting that failure in any meaningful sense - you're simply saying it will fail because you wish that to be the case. That casts very strong doubt on your ability to predict what life might be like for Ireland in an EFTA/EEA arrangement rather than the EU.

regards,
Scofflaw

http://www.businessworld.ie/livenews.htm?a=2581682 - Citi: Irish debt in "eye of the storm"

I may not be a convincing guy and this is only a forum, but there is an alternative that is possible for us to use in the case of leaving the Eurozone and EU. By staying within the EEA Agreement that allows trade between the EU & EFTA.

The Euro will fall because you would need fiscal union aswell as Monetary Union, that doesn't exist and will lead to its failure...

The Eurozone Market hasn't grown and it is still technically in a recession with no quick growth in sight... This was confirmed several days ago.

The Germans and French along with the ECB are not taking the PIIGS seriously is how over stretched they are.... The EuroZone Reserves are not enough to pay off the combined debt of the most endebted countries.

The Storm hasn't hit Spain yet, but when it does it will be nasty... We are worse off than the Greeks and ignoring that reality is reckless.

K-9 wrote: »

I'll make the point for a third time, we devalued in 92, 4/5 years later, the punt was worth £1.10 Stg, about, Euro for the Great British pound.

In 2002, The Punt was worth €1.27 and the Sterling was worth €1.60... So the Punt did value favourably for UK/US exports around the time of conversion but when the euro was adopted, inflation went through the roof.

I remember IR£2.00 drinks costing €3.00 instead of €2.54...

DaBrow

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

From the CSO
Country|Imports |Exports
UK|€19,202,700,000|€15,864,300,000
Rest of EU|€17,353,000,000|€37,976,300,000
US|€6,762,800,000|€16,674,300,000
Rest of the world|€14,266,300,000|€15,879,500,000
Total|€57,584,800,000|€86,394,400,000

By far our biggest export destination is the EU. Our biggest import source is the UK. If we dropped out of the euro, our import bill would skyrocket as we had to keep purchasing sterling with a rapidly decreasing currency, while our export revenue would fall as we'd be providing goods cheaper...is that really what you want?

This is from 2008... This was before the Euro strengthened and I am sure for 2009, the results won't be as rosy.

" http://www.businessworld.ie/bworld/livenews.htm?a=2581758

'Greece must now ask for EU/IMF cash'

Thursday, April 08 14:51:12
Greece must ask the EU and IMF for cash, a senior analyst at Fitch Ratings told Reuters, saying spiralling bond spreads and lack of clarity over EU support meant this should not be delayed."


What I want is a serious debate... There is llittle awareness of EFTA in Ireland and comparing the two blocs to the Irish public would show what we can gain...

As for the CSO... I can't rely on them totally because I heard others mention in the past the national census data isn't what they really believe it to be.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8609456.stm

Markets hit by Greek debt fears


European financial markets have been hit by renewed fears over the state of Greece's debt-ridden economy.


I'm sorry but Think we see a tragedy awaiting

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

The UK is out of recession and the Eurozone failed to Grow, they are not solidly strong but they are better than us and alot of the european Neighbours for sure.



http://www.businessworld.ie/livenews.htm?a=2581682 - Citi: Irish debt in "eye of the storm"

I may not be a convincing guy and this is only a forum, but there is an alternative that is possible for us to use in the case of leaving the Eurozone and EU. By staying within the EEA Agreement that allows trade between the EU & EFTA.

The Euro will fall because you would need fiscal union aswell as Monetary Union, that doesn't exist and will lead to its failure...

The Eurozone Market hasn't grown and it is still technically in a recession with no quick growth in sight... This was confirmed several days ago.

The Germans and French along with the ECB are not taking the PIIGS seriously is how over stretched they are.... The EuroZone Reserves are not enough to pay off the combined debt of the most endebted countries.

The Storm hasn't hit Spain yet, but when it does it will be nasty... We are worse off than the Greeks and ignoring that reality is reckless.



In 2002, The Punt was worth €1.27 and the Sterling was worth €1.60... So the Punt did value favourably for UK/US exports around the time of conversion but when the euro was adopted, inflation went through the roof.

I remember IR£2.00 drinks costing €3.00 instead of €2.54...

Its far too early to be calling who is out of recession and who isn't.

As far as I can see, everybody is fecked at the moment, huge generalisation, but saying the UK is out of recession is too simplistic. So are we....................

As regards the bonds, I see your point but as Scoflaw pointed out, if we are seen as serious in tackling our debt problems, the rate can go down.

Who confirmed no growth in sight in the Euro?

Who says we are worse of than the Greeks?

Who says that Britain will not default?

The point still remains that 4/5 years after devaluation, Sterling was worth more than a Punt. Devaluation is not a cure all and doesn't mean we have control over our currency.

Scofflaw

K-9 wrote: »

Its far too early to be calling who is out of recession and who isn't.

As far as I can see, everybody is fecked at the moment, huge generalisation, but saying the UK is out of recession is too simplistic. So are we....................

As regards the bonds, I see your point but as Scoflaw pointed out, if we are seen as serious in tackling our debt problems, the rate can go down.

Who confirmed no growth in sight in the Euro?

Who says we are worse of than the Greeks?

Who says that Britain will not default?

The point still remains that 4/5 years after devaluation, Sterling was worth more than a Punt. Devaluation is not a cure all and doesn't mean we have control over our currency.

People may find this paper of interest: The Eurozone in the Current Crisis. A point worth making is that in the current crisis, we would not have "control over our currency" if we were not in the euro - we would, instead, be facing speculative attacks on our currency, resulting in large and rapid fluctuations in exchange rates with respect to every single trading partner.

As to the claim that the UK is out of recession while the eurozone remains in it - the growth of both was about 0-0.1% in Q4 2009, which in the case of the eurozone followed on from growth of 0.3% in Q3 2009 as opposed to a contraction of 0.2% in the UK in Q3 2009. To say that one is out of recession while the other isn't is complete rubbish, and is only being said because, again, DaBrow needs it to be the case for his argument that the euro is a bad thing, not because it's actually true.

cordially,
Scofflaw

BetterLisbon

Leaving the EU would require the following:
Politicians with vision and drive and a partial default on debts due to the devaluation of the new punt.
The latter is possible a la Argentina the former is not as our politicians are only good for fixing potholes, fasttracking passport applications and attending funerals.

ei.sdraob

BetterLisbon wrote: »

as our politicians are only good for fixing potholes

they are

K-9

BetterLisbon wrote: »

Leaving the EU would require the following:
Politicians with vision and drive and a partial default on debts due to the devaluation of the new punt.
The latter is possible a la Argentina the former is not as our politicians are only good for fixing potholes, fasttracking passport applications and attending funerals.

True, but this is also holding us back in the Euro too!

DaBrow

Scofflaw wrote: »

People may find this paper of interest: The Eurozone in the Current Crisis. A point worth making is that in the current crisis, we would not have "control over our currency" if we were not in the euro - we would, instead, be facing speculative attacks on our currency, resulting in large and rapid fluctuations in exchange rates with respect to every single trading partner.

As to the claim that the UK is out of recession while the eurozone remains in it - the growth of both was about 0-0.1% in Q4 2009, which in the case of the eurozone followed on from growth of 0.3% in Q3 2009 as opposed to a contraction of 0.2% in the UK in Q3 2009. To say that one is out of recession while the other isn't is complete rubbish, and is only being said because, again, DaBrow needs it to be the case for his argument that the euro is a bad thing, not because it's actually true.

cordially,
Scofflaw

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8606878.stm - Eurozone growth lowered to zero

"The eurozone's economy failed to grow at all in the last three months of 2009, revised figures have shown.The European Union's statistics office said that the quarter-on-quarter growth in the three months to December had proved to be zero."


I don't think that assessment is correct, especially when this comes from Eurostat itself.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8606499.stm - UK economy set to outpace most G7 peers, says OECD


"The UK economy is forecast to outstrip its G7 peers in the second quarter of this year, says the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.
The OECD predicted the UK would grow at an annualised rate of 3.1% in the second quarter of 2010."


This is from two days ago and what I partly base my belief on... The Eurozone is more troubled than the UK or anywhere else in europe.

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8606878.stm - Eurozone growth lowered to zero

"The eurozone's economy failed to grow at all in the last three months of 2009, revised figures have shown.The European Union's statistics office said that the quarter-on-quarter growth in the three months to December had proved to be zero."


I don't think that assessment is correct, especially when this comes from Eurostat itself.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8606499.stm - UK economy set to outpace most G7 peers, says OECD


"The UK economy is forecast to outstrip its G7 peers in the second quarter of this year, says the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.
The OECD predicted the UK would grow at an annualised rate of 3.1% in the second quarter of 2010."


This is from two days ago and what I partly base my belief on... The Eurozone is more troubled than the UK or anywhere else in europe.

Wait a second, Britain recorded 0.1% growth in the quarter the Eurozone had Zero:
BBC News - UK economy emerges from recession

Growth was about .5% for the first quarter, the best estimate so far:
UK economy avoided a double-dip recession, says think tank Niesr - Telegraph

The Eurozone may not be out of synch with that:
Euro zone PMIs jump, point to stronger Q1 growth | Economy | Reuters

PopeBuckfastXVI

I'd just like to point out that I don't want to be a fisherman, thanks all the same.

Flamed Diving

DaBrow wrote: »

This is from 2008... This was before the Euro strengthened and I am sure for 2009, the results won't be as rosy.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=TSA05&ti=Value+of+Merchandise+Trade+by+Year,+Area+and+Statistic&path=../Database/Eirestat/Trade/&lang=1




Are images not allowed?