Why don't we leave the EU? Join the Swiss in EFTA

DaBrow

This is serious, What is wrong with the Ireland of Today?

Our loyalty to Europe has been taken for granted by Brussels and I doubt we have our interests represented now in the EU; Is there anyone else who feels cheated?

We were bullied into voting again on the Unfair Lisbon Treaty... Where are these Jobs and Recovery we were promised?

The Euro rate of exchange is too strong for Irish Exports to Grow... Everything here apart from fuel is at least 10% more expensive than in the North or Britain. Why are we holding onto a currency we have no control over?

Ireland has very little idigenous Industry... Our entire Economic Power relies on the UK & America whom we trade with on a higher level than our EU Neighbours. We cannot compete because we are too expensive to purchase goods & services from but we are importing like crazy! Why has no-one realised?

The EU bans us from actively controlling our Immigration Rates... The number of people that have arrived here since the early 90's is equal to half a century's worth of people that arrived in France. Jobs are very Scarce for our own Citizens, why can't we restrict the number and help prevent Emigration?

Our Natural Resources have been exploited dreadfully... We have Oil off the Coast of Mayo and Galway which could benefit the country and its people but Shell has exclusive use of this. Spain has been raiding our Fisheries for Years with EU Protection, why can't we tell these people to Get Lost?

Most of our Laws are now distated to us from Brussels and are policies we have had no democratic voice in influencing, this to me is very wrong and sinister. Why does all this bureaucracy have to be obeyed when we don't agree with alot of the ideas?

---

I think we need a change that is better for us and a recovery.

The European Free Trade Association (EFTA) Allows:

• Member States to Protect and Exclusively Maintain their own Natural Resources
• Adopt and Veto EU Legislation of their choosing without External Authority
• Trade, Travel and Working Rights Throughout EFTA/EU States without Restriction under EEA/Bilateral Aggreements
• Exclusive Business Relationships with External Countries and Trade Blocs without Barriers
• Each Member State to contral and Maintain their own currency & Interest Rates
• Trade Only Relations.... Not Political Power Grabbing

http://www.efta.int/about-efta/history.aspx

Alot of EU Nations were once EFTA Members


So There We have it:

We cannot Devalue to boost exports like in 1992, because we got rid of the Punt and our own interest rates.

We cannot build a strong idigenous business base or use our natural resources for our own benefit, because that is seen as Anti-Competitive.

We have no control over laws that we wish to veto or prevent from being ratified, because our soverignty is weakened or no longer existant.

Our Immigration Policy is a joke, thousands of non-nationals can legally arrive in Ireland and work without having the ability to speak English and or Irish.


Please Discuss

twinQuins

Do we have abundant natural resources or an international banking system? Do we have anything that would allow us to survive in the EFTA?

Ask yourself that.

Cool Mo D

DaBrow wrote: »

The European Free Trade Association (EFTA) Allows:

• Member States to Protect and Exclusively Maintain their own Natural Resources
• Adopt and Veto EU Legislation of their choosing without External Authority
• Trade, Travel and Working Rights Throughout EFTA/EU States without Restriction under EEA/Bilateral Aggreements
• Exclusive Business Relationships with External Countries and Trade Blocs without Barriers
• Each Member State to contral and Maintain their own currency & Interest Rates
• Trade Only Relations.... Not Political Power Grabbing

http://www.efta.int/about-efta/history.aspx

[*]Member States to Protect and Exclusively Maintain their own Natural Resources
How does Ireland not have this right?

[*]Adopt and Veto EU Legislation of their choosing without External Authority
False.

[*]Trade, Travel and Working Rights Throughout EFTA/EU States without Restriction under EEA/Bilateral Aggreements
So you're saying that Ireland's immigration system would remain the same in the EFTA then?

[*]Exclusive Business Relationships with External Countries and Trade Blocs without Barriers
How does the EU stop this now?

[*]Each Member State to contral and Maintain their own currency & Interest Rates
So can EU member states - how many currencies exist in the EU now?

[*]Trade Only Relations.... Not Political Power Grabbing
Trade and politics are not separate - they are deeply linked.

BetterLisbon

Cool Mo D wrote: »

[*]Member States to Protect and Exclusively Maintain their own Natural Resources
How does Ireland not have this right?
[*]Adopt and Veto EU Legislation of their choosing without External Authority
False.
[*]Trade, Travel and Working Rights Throughout EFTA/EU States without Restriction under EEA/Bilateral Aggreements
So you're saying that Ireland's immigration system would remain the same in the EFTA then?
[*]Exclusive Business Relationships with External Countries and Trade Blocs without Barriers
How does the EU stop this now?
[*]Each Member State to contral and Maintain their own currency & Interest Rates
So can EU member states - how many currencies exist in the EU now?
[*]Trade Only Relations.... Not Political Power Grabbing
Trade and politics are not separate - they are deeply linked.

*We gave up our fisheries to join the EEC. In EFTA we can keep them.
*The EEA agreement contains an emergency opt-out mechanism.
*In EFTA we could restrict the free movement of people but with reciprocal effect.
*EFTA has no common commercial policy.
*True.
*Opinion.

BetterLisbon

DaBrow wrote: »

This is serious, What is wrong with the Ireland of Today?

Our loyalty to Europe has been taken for granted by Brussels and I doubt we have our interests represented now in the EU; Is there anyone else who feels cheated?

We were bullied into voting again on the Unfair Lisbon Treaty... Where are these Jobs and Recovery we were promised?

The Euro rate of exchange is too strong for Irish Exports to Grow... Everything here apart from fuel is at least 10% more expensive than in the North or Britain. Why are we holding onto a currency we have no control over?

Ireland has very little idigenous Industry... Our entire Economic Power relies on the UK & America whom we trade with on a higher level than our EU Neighbours. We cannot compete because we are too expensive to purchase goods & services from but we are importing like crazy! Why has no-one realised?

The EU bans us from actively controlling our Immigration Rates... The number of people that have arrived here since the early 90's is equal to half a century's worth of people that arrived in France. Jobs are very Scarce for our own Citizens, why can't we restrict the number and help prevent Emigration?

Our Natural Resources have been exploited dreadfully... We have Oil off the Coast of Mayo and Galway which could benefit the country and its people but Shell has exclusive use of this. Spain has been raiding our Fisheries for Years with EU Protection, why can't we tell these people to Get Lost?

Most of our Laws are now distated to us from Brussels and are policies we have had no democratic voice in influencing, this to me is very wrong and sinister. Why does all this bureaucracy have to be obeyed when we don't agree with alot of the ideas?

---

I think we need a change that is better for us and a recovery.

The European Free Trade Association (EFTA) Allows:

• Member States to Protect and Exclusively Maintain their own Natural Resources
• Adopt and Veto EU Legislation of their choosing without External Authority
• Trade, Travel and Working Rights Throughout EFTA/EU States without Restriction under EEA/Bilateral Aggreements
• Exclusive Business Relationships with External Countries and Trade Blocs without Barriers
• Each Member State to contral and Maintain their own currency & Interest Rates
• Trade Only Relations.... Not Political Power Grabbing

http://www.efta.int/about-efta/history.aspx

Alot of EU Nations were once EFTA Members


So There We have it:

We cannot Devalue to boost exports like in 1992, because we got rid of the Punt and our own interest rates.

We cannot build a strong idigenous business base or use our natural resources for our own benefit, because that is seen as Anti-Competitive.

We have no control over laws that we wish to veto or prevent from being ratified, because our soverignty is weakened or no longer existant.

Our Immigration Policy is a joke, thousands of non-nationals can legally arrive in Ireland and work without having the ability to speak English and or Irish.


Please Discuss

The EEC/EC/EU is/was a means of getting things done that cant/couldnt pass leinster house or a referendum. It is a scapegoat for tough decisions or avoiding a decision. It provides politicians with plum jobs and sweeteners to buy elections.
EFTA on the other hand does not.

DaBrow

Morkarleth wrote: »

Do we have abundant natural resources or an international banking system? Do we have anything that would allow us to survive in the EFTA?

Ask yourself that.

Yes, we do.

We have natural Gas in the Corrib which is being exploited by multinational companies... Irish People get no benefit from this and these companies pay little tax.

Ireland has a huge coastline and we could safeguard our fisheries by leaving the EU... We could tell the Neighbours to ask permission or get lost.

Ireland has a Diaspora of over 60 Million People, many still have strong cultural & ancestral ties to this country... Highly Intelligent-Skilled, Well-Educated and Very Wealthy Individuals who could turn this country around if we scrapped the stupid Limit of Generational Eligibility. Look at Italy, Greece, Germany and a few other Countries that have decent Jus Sanguinis Laws that enable their descendants to come home.



Ireland also was for years a great tourist destination... Until we became too expensive and decided money valued more than culture. This has lead to the industry going down the toilet.

We have our stengths too I might add!!!

BetterLisbon wrote: »

The EEC/EC/EU is/was a means of getting things done that cant/couldnt pass leinster house or a referendum. It is a scapegoat for tough decisions or avoiding a decision. It provides politicians with plum jobs and sweeteners to buy elections.
EFTA on the other hand does not.

I think we should demand this... It sounds better and It makes ourselves Self-Sufficient.

That would get out of the mess we have found ourselves in.

The Corinthian

DaBrow wrote: »

We were bullied into voting again on the Unfair Lisbon Treaty... Where are these Jobs and Recovery we were promised?

What jobs and recovery was promised? I think many who voted in favour of the treaty, did so not on the basis of some fabled improvement in the economy, but that voting against (and further alienating the rest of the EU) would actually aggravate the recession.

The Euro rate of exchange is too strong for Irish Exports to Grow... Everything here apart from fuel is at least 10% more expensive than in the North or Britain. Why are we holding onto a currency we have no control over?

Because we do most of our trade with the Eurozone nations (Irish-UK trade has decreased dramatically in the last thirty years) and adoption of the Euro is a definate advantage in that regard.

Additionally, what would we return to? Unless you hadn't realized we only had control over our own currency for about ten years in the entire existence of the state - we were tied to the sterling for the vast majority of the time.

Ireland has very little idigenous Industry... Our entire Economic Power relies on the UK & America whom we trade with on a higher level than our EU Neighbours. We cannot compete because we are too expensive to purchase goods & services from but we are importing like crazy! Why has no-one realised?

How would this change if we left the EU? We could reintroduce the protectionist policies that kept us an impoverished nation up to the nineties?

Assuming we could even do that, as EFTA membership would require that we follow EU directives on trade regardless.

The EU bans us from actively controlling our Immigration Rates... The number of people that have arrived here since the early 90's is equal to half a century's worth of people that arrived in France. Jobs are very Scarce for our own Citizens, why can't we restrict the number and help prevent Emigration?

I'm afraid that under EFTA, the rules on immigration would not change.

Our Natural Resources have been exploited dreadfully... We have Oil off the Coast of Mayo and Galway which could benefit the country and its people but Shell has exclusive use of this.

How is this the EU's fault?

Spain has been raiding our Fisheries for Years with EU Protection, why can't we tell these people to Get Lost?

Actually, we traded our fisheries for better agricultural subsidies.

Most of our Laws are now distated to us from Brussels and are policies we have had no democratic voice in influencing, this to me is very wrong and sinister. Why does all this bureaucracy have to be obeyed when we don't agree with alot of the ideas?

Under EFTA this would not change.

Alot of EU Nations were once EFTA Members

And now they're not - so you really have to ask why this is the case, rather than ape something that they've rejected.

Even the few countries that remain in EFTA are slowly coming to the realization that there is no escaping EU membership in the long run as they are effectively already in (in terms of EU directed legislation that the must implement) without actually having a say.

We cannot Devalue to boost exports like in 1992, because we got rid of the Punt and our own interest rates.

You do understand that we are not in any economic position to create a viable currency?

We cannot build a strong idigenous business base or use our natural resources for our own benefit, because that is seen as Anti-Competitive.

In or out of the EU it would still be seen as anti-competitive, the difference now is that other EU states cannot slap tariffs and quotas on our exports - in a trade war between Ireland and the UK, who do you think would come out tops?

We have no control over laws that we wish to veto or prevent from being ratified, because our soverignty is weakened or no longer existant.

Sovereignty is of limited value when you're a small fish in a big pond.

Our Immigration Policy is a joke, thousands of non-nationals can legally arrive in Ireland and work without having the ability to speak English and or Irish.

Irish? LOL.

Ireland is not Switzerland. Not even close. I suggest you dispel that fantasy quickly. I also don't think you understand what EFTA membership actually entails.

What age are you?

DaBrow

The Corinthian wrote: »

What jobs and recovery was promised? I think many who voted in favour of the treaty, did so not on the basis of some fabled improvement in the economy, but that voting against (and further alienating the rest of the EU) would actually aggravate the recession.

http://www.fiannafail.ie/page/-/images/feature/blenihan_20sept09_600.jpg

The EU Commission and Irish Political Parties bullied people into voting for a Treaty that they did not want, Democracy no longer exists in the bloc

The Corinthian wrote: »

Because we do most of our trade with the Eurozone nations (Irish-UK trade has decreased dramatically in the last thirty years) and adoption of the Euro is a definate advantage in that regard.

Nope....

Most of our Trade is with Britain and America after all these years, we have very little export trade with other EU States.

"Main export partners UK 18.6%, US 18.3%"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland

The Corinthian wrote: »

Additionally, what would we return to? Unless you hadn't realized we only had control over our own currency for about ten years in the entire existence of the state - we were tied to the sterling for the vast majority of the time.

It worked though didn't it?

If we were tied to sterling now with the punt, we would be able to boost our exports and get out of recession... Thanks to the Euro we cannot do anything with this currency crisis.

Britain is recovering because they kept the pound, a wise decision which is why companies are still operating within the UK...

Halifax Bank in Ireland is leaving because Ireland is still very unstable and I believe they are leaving Spain too..

So Much for the Euro being a currency you can operate within Business.

The Corinthian wrote: »

How would this change if we left the EU? We could reintroduce the protectionist policies that kept us an impoverished nation up to the nineties?

Ireland was improverished because we allowed hundred of thousands of our brightest and best to emigrate, this is happening again and will continue until we have a government that abandons out-dated and stupid red tape legislation that prevents business.

My Mum and Dad left here in the 80's because the Health Service was Neglected, like it has always been and since Irish staff left during bad times... They were replaced by Foreign Nationals in Good Times.

Irish Medical Grads can't get Jobs in Irish Hospitals... EU Law means we have pressure to employ Foreign Nationals first and cannot recruit our own people with ease because that is discriminatory. EFTA States allow opportunities for their own people

The Corinthian wrote: »

Assuming we could even do that, as EFTA membership would require that we follow EU directives on trade regardless.

I'm afraid that under EFTA, the rules on immigration would not change.
[/QUOTE]
Wrong...

EFTA States have considerable power to restrict or free-up immigration.

EFTA States have no external Authority to answer to in europe and could easily bar individuals or expel those we believe are a drain on the country, because of the EU's direction you cannot even get rid of false Asylum Seekers when you go they are guilty as Sin of Lying about their status.

They can take their case to the European Court of Human Rights who EU Members dare not oppose, EFTA can just send them on their way wothout having to drag out an expensive fight in a Court that doesn't represent or sympathise with their own jurisdiction.

The Corinthian wrote: »

How is this the EU's fault?

The EU forbids its members from benefitting from their own natural resources, that is why the spanish have been stealing our fish for years.

Pretty Obvious I would think.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually, we traded our fisheries for better agricultural subsidies.

Well. that's wonderful now isn't it that all the farmers here in Ireland are on the breadline and can't sell their produce?

My Uncle who is a Doctor in Laois has confirmed that Farmer's are losing their homes and produce because the EU CAP is considerably less than it once was and the French and German Farmers get more than other member countries.

We would have the same potential as Norway if we had our fisheries, they have posession of theirs and it has made them very strong in that field aswell as Timber and Hydro-power... Not to mention Oil.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Under EFTA this would not change.

Yes, it would. EFTA has no external authority and they can over-ride aspects of EU Legislation, they have to pay into the EU and have little influence but they have power over the European Economic Area.

Norway has repeatedly blocked legislation from the EU it doesn't agree with anf they haven't been penalised... They can continue to Trade with relative ease in the EU. They are also part of schengen which allows freedom of travel into their country from an EU/EFTA State.

The Corinthian wrote: »

And now they're not - so you really have to ask why this is the case, rather than ape something that they've rejected.

I can certainly tell you that the EU back in the 90's wasn't as power grabbing or bullying as it is now. Back then it was better than EFTA because it was about Trade and Travel, but since countries have been pressurised to join the Euro and abandon alot of their soverignty.

People are now very angered, the Czech Republic being one where President Vaclav Klaus actually showed a spine and put his people before his own interests in saying he did not want to sign a document he believed would surrender Czech Land/Soverignty to anyone.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Even the few countries that remain in EFTA are slowly coming to the realization that there is no escaping EU membership in the long run as they are effectively already in (in terms of EU directed legislation that the must implement) without actually having a say.

The EU will implode, it is only a matter of time. The Euro has been a disaster and millions across europe are getting very angry that they cannot keep their jobs, homes or even live normally because they were forced to use a currency they didn't want in the first place.... It is causing carnage

If you think people are wanting this to continue... You need to look further than Ireland.

Look at Greece, I bet you think the EU is very popular there right now? Greece will Default, but Spain will certainly implode with it's 20% unemployment and Civil War MKII could BreakOut because Zapatero wrecked the country in just over 6 years.

Portugal has lost its Financial AAA Status, Friends of Mine from Italy are on the breadline because they cannot sell their goods or attract tourists because prices are too high for tourists!

Ireland has been a rip-off for Years! Everything we sell is at least 10-40% more expensive than buying it in the UK, so how can you say our situation is favourable?

Britiain is only still in the EU because they have not had a referendum, they would certainly leave along with Denmark and Czech Republic...

Only a matter of time

The Corinthian wrote: »

You do understand that we are not in any economic position to create a viable currency?

Neither is Greece, but If you have forgotten already. Societé Generale announced in Feb that the Euro will collapse eventually and back in December, Bloomberg announced that they see Ireland and Greece either abandoning the Euro or being forced out by this Year.

All the PIIGS Nations are economically incapable of holding onto this currency, because we no longer have the conditions to use it.

We will leave either by choice of force.

The Corinthian wrote: »

In or out of the EU it would still be seen as anti-competitive, the difference now is that other EU states cannot slap tariffs and quotas on our exports - in a trade war between Ireland and the UK, who do you think would come out tops?

Norway and Switzerland along with Liechenstein & Iceland can manage without EU Membership...

Iceland may have had an implosion but they are recovering alot faster than ourselves, the government may have applied for EU Membership but the icelandic people are vehemently opposed to it because they like independence and do not want to give up their fisheries.

Ireland can come-out tops if we left the EU... Our own currency, Interest Rates and Improved Jus-Sanguinis Law could make the place like the UAE for Ancestral Workers.

Diaspora Banking is what we can do or Investment

The Corinthian wrote: »

Sovereignty is of limited value when you're a small fish in a big pond.

So You're willing to sellout your own country and its people for money? Poor choice of words there, while you're at it you might aswell say our fight independence was a joke and we should still be licking the dirt off Britain's boots?

Incredible... A Nation without an identity and rule from its own people is a nation without a soul.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Irish? LOL.

At least 20,000 Americans of Irish Descent speak Irish as their first language in their homes, you will find this on either WikiPedia or on their census... Another 5,000 in the country to the North and other large numbers elsewhere in South America like Argentina where there is a strong diaspora.

I find it offensive that you insult our Native Language

The Corinthian wrote: »

Ireland is not Switzerland. Not even close. I suggest you dispel that fantasy quickly. I also don't think you understand what EFTA membership actually entails.

It's people like you who are content with the rut we are stuck in that dispel this idea, Ireland has the potential but until we kick out the gombeenism civil war mentality that has prevented this country from being strong and self-sufficient.

I know what EFTA membership entails, I've read into it and it is basically the perks of EU Membership without the Baggage or the Red-tape that members obey.

Swiss Products and services are plentiful in Ireland, they and the Norwegians have refused EU membership repeatedly for years because they value their independence... Good for them!!!

The Corinthian wrote: »

What age are you?

Older than you it appears and more broad-minded, Anyone who thinks we should obey the EU without question and there is nothing else should look up EFTA rather than shrug it off

DaBrow

"The Euro Breakup Will Be THE Story Of 2010, As Analyst Expects Ireland And Greece To Leave The Union"

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-euro-breakup-may-be-the-story-of-2010-as-analyst-expects-ireland-and-greece-to-leave-the-union-2009-12

Collapse of Euro is ‘inevitable’ warns French banking chief

"The European single currency is facing an ‘inevitable break-up’ a leading French bank claimed yesterday. Strategists at Paris-based Société Générale said that any bailout of the stricken Greek economy would only provide ’sticking plasters’ to cover the deep- seated flaws in the eurozone bloc."

Scofflaw

DaBrow wrote: »

"The Euro Breakup Will Be THE Story Of 2010, As Analyst Expects Ireland And Greece To Leave The Union"

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-euro-breakup-may-be-the-story-of-2010-as-analyst-expects-ireland-and-greece-to-leave-the-union-2009-12

Collapse of Euro is ‘inevitable’ warns French banking chief

"The European single currency is facing an ‘inevitable break-up’ a leading French bank claimed yesterday. Strategists at Paris-based Société Générale said that any bailout of the stricken Greek economy would only provide ’sticking plasters’ to cover the deep- seated flaws in the eurozone bloc."

Not wishing to suggest any lack of credibility in your source, but this is from the same place (the EUTimes.net):

World Mourns As Communist Darkness Falls Upon America

In what is being described as one of the most astounding power grabs in modern history by newspaper headlines around the World, President Obama has succeeded in his audacious plan to remake America into a full fledged godless communist empire barely one year into his term with the enactment into law by the US Congress of his mammoth health care plan innocuously named H.R. 3200-Americas Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 and described by one Kremlin legal expert as having “nothing at all to do with health, but everything to do with control.”

I see also that the Société Générale strategist quoted, London-based Albert Edwards, predicts the breakup of the euro on a relatively regular basis, and is largely alone in doing so - it seems a little dishonest to give his personal opinion as that of "strategists at Paris-based Société Générale".

amused,
Scofflaw

the_syco

DaBrow wrote: »

Our Immigration Policy is a joke, thousands of non-nationals can legally arrive in Ireland and work without having the ability to speak English and or Irish.

We should have laws like the French: don't see many people milking their system, do you?

=-=

Oh, and we got lots of monies from the EU for our roads, etc... don't think we'll get that from the EFTA.

maggy_thatcher

DaBrow wrote: »

Most of our Trade is with Britain and America after all these years, we have very little export trade with other EU States.

"Main export partners UK 18.6%, US 18.3%"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland

From that page, keep going -- Belgium 14.7%, Germany 7%, France 5.9%, Spain 4.2% (2008)
Belgium + Germany + France + Span == 31.8%
Therefore, our biggest trading partner is the Eurozone. It is almost as big as UK&US combined (36.9%).

Most of our national debt is in Euros. If we created our own little currency, first it would drop like a stone (everybody with money in the country would immediately take it out), but we'd still owe back all that money in Euros.

DaBrow

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not wishing to suggest any lack of credibility in your source, but this is from the same place (the EUTimes.net):

Look at the other link and you will see the link for the Bloomberg ARticle dated December 2009.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=a3SIOdqSGOtE
" Greece and Ireland are among countries in an “intolerable” economic situation, which may lead to bailouts or even an exit from the euro area by the end of next year, according to Standard Bank Plc."

Scofflaw wrote: »

I see also that the Société Générale strategist quoted, London-based Albert Edwards, predicts the breakup of the euro on a relatively regular basis, and is largely alone in doing so - it seems a little dishonest to give his personal opinion as that of "strategists at Paris-based Société Générale".

amused,
Scofflaw

See above... Societé Generale are not fooling around when it comes to business.

If bloomberg and them are predicting the same thing; Pompeii certainly springs to mind and the Domino Theory.

Spain is a ticking time bomb and Greece cannot hold it together for long... You have been Warned.

DaBrow

the_syco wrote: »

We should have laws like the French: don't see many people milking their system, do you?

=-=

Oh, and we got lots of monies from the EU for our roads, etc... don't think we'll get that from the EFTA.

http://www.eeagrants.org/id/14

You were Saying???

I think this is what they offer.... Looks the same to me.

EFTA isn't even talked about often because that just shows how little people know.

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

From that page, keep going -- Belgium 14.7%, Germany 7%, France 5.9%, Spain 4.2% (2008)
Belgium + Germany + France + Span == 31.8%
Therefore, our biggest trading partner is the Eurozone. It is almost as big as UK&US combined (36.9%).

Most of our national debt is in Euros. If we created our own little currency, first it would drop like a stone (everybody with money in the country would immediately take it out), but we'd still owe back all that money in Euros.

So what you're saying is this:

Yes, America and Britain make up the largest Export Markets that we have and the costs of goods and services from Here... Are more expensive than elsewhere? So they are not in anyway put off or will shop elsewhere in europe, even if they find the exact same product for a lower price and in the same quality?

Our Exports to them have plummetted and that has caused us a huge amount of pain... The Eurozone didn't even grow last year and shows no sign of improving soon... How can the eurozone be our biggest training partner?

They make up 32% and the UK & US combined make up 37% between the two.. Most of our trade is outside the Euro currency.

Ireland had the Punt fixed at the rate of €1.27 before conversion, I don't see how we can't bring back the Punt and pay it off at the rate of conversion.

The currency could tumble, but we would be able to pay off our debts and actually recover like the Icelanders are doing with a weaker Icelandic Currency.

The ECB has rates which do not represent our economic conditions and the rate of exchange is killing us... We are still too expensive to visit as a country.

owenc

i would love that... but the uk will never leave.. until theyve got enough illegal immigrants.

HxGH

Why don't we?

Because..... Effort. :rolleyes:

DaBrow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1svC9WzMII&feature=player_embedded#at=18

It doesn't contain everything, but it has impressive detail.

Scofflaw

DaBrow wrote: »

Look at the other link and you will see the link for the Bloomberg ARticle dated December 2009.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=a3SIOdqSGOtE
" Greece and Ireland are among countries in an “intolerable” economic situation, which may lead to bailouts or even an exit from the euro area by the end of next year, according to Standard Bank Plc."

See above... Societé Generale are not fooling around when it comes to business.

If bloomberg and them are predicting the same thing; Pompeii certainly springs to mind and the Domino Theory.

Spain is a ticking time bomb and Greece cannot hold it together for long... You have been Warned.

The end of the euro has been predicted repeatedly by some institutions since its inception - most particularly, and most regularly, by the City of London. The reason I drew attention to your article was that they were quoting an analyst (and a known contrarian one) and implying that it represented the official opinion of the Société Générale.

As for the Bloomberg article, well, have a closer look:

Greece and Ireland are among countries in an “intolerable” economic situation, which may lead to bailouts or even an exit from the euro area by the end of next year, according to Standard Bank Plc.
...
“Countries like Ireland and Greece may not be able to grow out of the current crisis,” Barrow said in a telephone interview today. “With interest-rate cuts, exchange-rate depreciation and significant fiscal support all off limits for these countries, bailouts or even pullouts from EMU may happen next year.”
...
The widening difference in yield, or spread, between Greek and Irish bonds and German securities may accelerate, increasing the debt burden for these countries, he wrote in a report today. The Irish-German 10-year spread may rise to 300 basis points next year, from about 170 basis points, he said. The spread averaged about 43 basis points in the past five years, with the Greek-German average at 67 basis points in the period.

That was December 2009, and a forecast based on Ireland's basis point spread continuing to increase - that was then, and this is now (also Bloomberg):

March 30 (Bloomberg) -- Ireland’s bonds are poised to outperform those of every other euro member except Austria this quarter as investors bet it will be more successful than countries such as Greece in cutting its budget deficit.

The nation’s debt returned 3.4 percent this year, according to Bloomberg/EFFAS indexes. Yields on 10-year Irish bonds fell to within 128 basis points of those on benchmark German bunds on March 12, a 14-month low. Credit Agricole Corporate and Investment Bank and Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc anticipate that spread may drop to about 65 basis points by the end of 2010 as the bonds keep rising.

Now, it may happen that the euro will fall apart, and it may happen that one of the euro countries will leave, but we're not going to know it by relying on you as a source, because you're apparently completely uncritical of sources that tell you what you want to hear. That, in turn, suggests that you probably have little or no idea about the realities of changing from the EU to EFTA, but are instead cherry-picking what you want to hear about it, and putting that forward as being the reality.

cordially,
Scofflaw

sirromo

maggy_thatcher wrote:

everybody with money in the country would immediately take it out

David McWilliams addressed this point when he argued the case for leaving the euro
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/05/06/ditching-the-euro-could-boost-our-failing-economy

We are already running a trade surplus and we’d run a bigger one. Our deposit base is significant. Clearly lots of money would flee the country initially, but it would come back as the domestic economy recovered quickly. Sure we’d have a lot of explaining to do politically, but we’ve to do that anyway.

DaBrow

Scofflaw wrote: »

That was December 2009, and a forecast based on Ireland's basis point spread continuing to increase - that was then, and this is now (also Bloomberg):

Now, it may happen that the euro will fall apart, and it may happen that one of the euro countries will leave, but we're not going to know it by relying on you as a source, because you're apparently completely uncritical of sources that tell you what you want to hear. That, in turn, suggests that you probably have little or no idea about the realities of changing from the EU to EFTA, but are instead cherry-picking what you want to hear about it, and putting that forward as being the reality.

cordially,
Scofflaw

What you fail to accept is that Ireland is still in pretty bad shape...

The Bank of Scotland (Ireland) are "restructuring" and Halifax Bank are pulling out of Ireland, this is a very bad sign and not one that should be taken lightly.

Ireland is attached to a currency that it is very shaky and is in a basket with 4 other countries whom can fall by the wayside at a drop of a hat.

Spain or Greece will default and I believe will cause devastation across the eurozone, The Germans and other Eurozone countries are not going to bailout the Greeks because they are equally vulnerable but have the power to delay the inevitable damage.

One town in France Refuses to use the Euro ....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8588048.stm

Ask anyone in Spain what they think of the Euro and disgust springs to mind, many want the peseta back because they believe the euro has been a disaster.

marco_polo

DaBrow wrote: »

...
The Germans and other Eurozone countries are not going to bailout the Greeks because they are equally vulnerable but have the power to delay the inevitable damage.
..

Your argument might seem at least superficially appear more convincing if you kept up to speed with the most basic of recent developments.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055869272

DaBrow

marco_polo wrote: »

Your argument might seem at least superficially more convincing if you kept up to speed on the latest developments.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055869272

The Same EU that promised to respect the first outcome of the Lisbon Treaty?

They are breaking their own rules because under EU Law, you cannot bail out a member state in the Eurozone...

Even if a bailout does happen, it won't prevent the damage being felt across the continent... Spain if not Greece will be the deciding factor.

Repercussions can't be prevented.

maggy_thatcher

sirromo wrote: »

David McWilliams addressed this point when he argued the case for leaving the euro
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/05/06/ditching-the-euro-could-boost-our-failing-economy

He also said:

The new currency would fall rapidly, giving our trading sector a significant boost and making Ireland cheaper overnight for people to do business in.

He's missing the other half of the equation. If our currency was worthless (which it would be), while it could mean we'd be able to sell products cheaply, we wouldn't be able to afford to buy the raw materials necessary to create those products.

DaBrow

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

He also said:

He's missing the other half of the equation. If our currency was worthless (which it would be), while it could mean we'd be able to sell products cheaply, we wouldn't be able to afford to buy the raw materials necessary to create those products.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2010/0408/greece.html?
"Greece was hit with mounting financial pressure on all sides today as its borrowing costs reached record heights and its shares plummeted on rising doubt that the EU would provide urgent debt help."


http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-08/greece-s-yield-unattractive-even-over-7-pimco-s-clarida-says.html

"I don’t think that it would be an attractive enough yield,” said Clarida today in a Bloomberg Radio interview with Tom Keene. Greece is “sort of like the Titanic. Eighteen things went wrong, and when they go wrong at once it’s problematic,” said Clarida, whose Newport Beach, California-based firm runs the world’s largest mutual fund."

---

I see we are not far behind them according to Citibank

http://www.businessworld.ie/livenews.htm?a=2581682

Citi: Irish debt in "eye of the storm"

"Irish, along with Spanish and Portuguese, bonds face inevitable "contagion" as concern that Greece will default undermines confidence in the rest of the European Union's most indebted nations, Citigroup warned."

Cool Mo D

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

He also said:

He's missing the other half of the equation. If our currency was worthless (which it would be), while it could mean we'd be able to sell products cheaply, we wouldn't be able to afford to buy the raw materials necessary to create those products.

Also, If we had our own currency, everyone with a mortgage would instantly default, as interest rates shot up to 20%, accompanied by massive inflation with no hope of pay rises.

Scofflaw

DaBrow wrote: »

What you fail to accept is that Ireland is still in pretty bad shape...

The Bank of Scotland (Ireland) are "restructuring" and Halifax Bank are pulling out of Ireland, this is a very bad sign and not one that should be taken lightly.

Ireland is attached to a currency that it is very shaky and is in a basket with 4 other countries whom can fall by the wayside at a drop of a hat.

Spain or Greece will default and I believe will cause devastation across the eurozone, The Germans and other Eurozone countries are not going to bailout the Greeks because they are equally vulnerable but have the power to delay the inevitable damage.

I haven't suggested at any point that Ireland isn't in pretty bad shape - I made the point that the person who made the prediction you like made another related prediction on which the euro breakup one was predicated. His prediction was that Irish debt would be at 300 basis points by now, and that that might be one of the contributory factors in a possible breakup of the euro - but Irish debt didn't rise to 300 basis points. Instead it fell to about 140, and is expected to fall further.

That you prefer to ignore that logic and instead insist on trying to back the original prediction with a new rationale means that you neither knew nor cared what the original rationale for the prediction was. In turn, that means that ascribing it to "Bloomberg" or any other "authoritative" source is meaningless, because when they change what they're saying, you don't - you don't really know why they're saying what they're saying, you only know you like it, and they're only "authoritative" in your eyes when they are saying what you want to hear.

DaBrow wrote: »

One town in France Refuses to use the Euro ....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8588048.stm

Ask anyone in Spain what they think of the Euro and disgust springs to mind, many want the peseta back because they believe the euro has been a disaster.

Daily Mail style anecdotal tabloid rubbish.

regards,
Scofflaw

The Corinthian

Why could I not resist the temptation of posting on this board..?

I'm not really interested in getting into an endless discussion here on this issue as it has been done countless times before and one thing that comes out repeatedly is that the "leave the EU brigade" will simply continue posting the most misleading crap and unsubstantiated opinion until those arguing against give up and go back to their lives.

However, I would note the following:

DaBrow wrote: »

Ireland can come-out tops if we left the EU... Our own currency, Interest Rates and Improved Jus-Sanguinis Law could make the place like the UAE for Ancestral Workers.

Enter the Herrenvolk argument, which ultimately seems to be at the core of a lot of these arguments. A very thinly disguised racial argument.

So You're willing to sellout your own country and its people for money? Poor choice of words there, while you're at it you might aswell say our fight independence was a joke and we should still be licking the dirt off Britain's boots?

LOL. Back to the old romantic notion of fighting the good fight against the evil Empire, are we? I think you should study something about Realpolitik (a foreign word, I know) before rushing like a lemming to the wire.

Incredible... A Nation without an identity and rule from its own people is a nation without a soul.

Nice cliche.

At least 20,000 Americans of Irish Descent speak Irish as their first language in their homes, you will find this on either WikiPedia or on their census... Another 5,000 in the country to the North and other large numbers elsewhere in South America like Argentina where there is a strong diaspora.

I find it offensive that you insult our Native Language

Which you are presently using so eloquently to argue your case...

It's people like you who are content with the rut we are stuck in that dispel this idea, Ireland has the potential but until we kick out the gombeenism civil war mentality that has prevented this country from being strong and self-sufficient.

Ireland was never strong and self-sufficient, those policies were abandoned precisely because it kept us poor - we were known as Weiß Afrika in Germany because of this, did you know that?

Swiss Products and services are plentiful in Ireland, they and the Norwegians have refused EU membership repeatedly for years because they value their independence... Good for them!!!

Actually only a small subset, largely luxury goods that can afford the tariffs, are plentiful in Ireland. How much Swiss beef/pork/lamb do you see? Or fridge freezers, ovens and other kitchen appliances? Or beer - when was the last pint of Feldschlösschen you saw in Dublin?

On that note, when was the last pint of Norwegian Frydenlund you drank? Or Liechtensteiner Brauhaus Hell (which is actually not all that bad)?

Older than you it appears and more broad-minded, Anyone who thinks we should obey the EU without question and there is nothing else should look up EFTA rather than shrug it off

Wither you are a lot older or a lot younger is my guess. Either way I'm no spring children and remember well what a clusterfsck getting a job in 'self sufficient' Ireland was economically.

TBH, you seem to be grasping at dubious justifications (often incompletely so as to avoid contradiction) for a position that in reality has more to do with blind nationalism and race than economics, from what I can see.

DaBrow

The Corinthian wrote: »

Why could I not resist the temptation of posting on this board..?

I'm not really interested in getting into an endless discussion here on this issue as it has been done countless times before and one thing that comes out repeatedly is that the "leave the EU brigade" will simply continue posting the most misleading crap and unsubstantiated opinion until those arguing against give up and go back to their lives.

Wither you are a lot older or a lot younger is my guess. Either way I'm no spring children and remember well what a clusterfsck getting a job in 'self sufficient' Ireland was economically.

TBH, you seem to be grasping at dubious justifications (often incompletely so as to avoid contradiction) for a position that in reality has more to do with blind nationalism and race than economics, from what I can see.

Why bother contribute replying, all you seem to be interested in is just complaining and not willing to consider valid alternatives.

Ireland has gotten all that we are going to get from the European Union; we have a seat at the table but we are no longer getting the attention or gifts to build up the roads or infrastructure because the attention is now on the eastern bloc countries.

Ireland can be self-sufficient, we have a Diaspora that we have never used to great potential and the likes of Italy and Germany have which is why alot of Americans and other Descendants from the globe claim citizenship and can travel, work or live in those countries with considerable ease.

So if leaving the EU is Misleading C*ap, then why are Norway and Switzerland doing OK compared to fully ingrained EU Members? May be they are free and use their initative to get off their asses and work hard.

You will find many Irish people are now very sick of the EU and alot are starting to question, whether we should even stay in a bloc that no longer listens to its citizens.

I for one see no reason why we should... Ireland isn't self-sufficient because we rely on the EU and Multinationals.

Unless Europhiles are scared of debate and being proven incorrect


P.S.

There is no such thing as Blind Nationalism... Just Loyalty to one's country, Traditional Values, Participating in idigenous customs and Promoting your own culture has never been a bad thing.

Allowing our Diasporans back has nothing to do with a Herrenvolk arguement, or thinly disguised racial intent... But the fact they would integrate successfully because they share and value the same culture as the Native Irish Population.

Anyone who thinks Nationalism is the same as that screwed up belief National Socialism needs to read over it again; that is a socialist idea which has nothing to do with it.

Race is a word (I reject) that is meaningless to distinguish a group of ethnic communities who share similar appearence or customs... I regard Human beings as the same but they differ because of Ethnic Origin, Customs and Culture and belief.

sirromo

The Corinthian wrote:

we were known as Weiß Afrika in Germany because of this, did you know that?

I didn't know that. I thought the Germans used the term to refer to north Africa.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wei%C3%9Fafrika

I find it odd that the Germans would use the same term to refer to both Ireland and north Africa. Do you have any evidence to show that the term was widely used in Germany to refer to Ireland?

The Corinthian

DaBrow wrote: »

If you have nothing to contribute then don't bother replying, all you seem to be interested in is just complaining and not willing to consider alternatives.

I considered the alternative you have presented and found it fundamentally flawed, so I have happily replied to point that out.

Ireland can be self-sufficient, we have a Diaspora that we have never used to great potential and the likes of Italy and Germany have which is why alot of Americans and other Descendants from the globe claim citizenship and can travel, work or live in those countries with considerable ease.

Ireland can only be self-sufficient if we decide that we want to lower our living standards dramatically. That is the reality of what self-sufficient Ireland used to be. Unless you can suggest a credible means by which this trade off can be averted (and I don't mean some vague theories about red tape and diaspora) then I suspect that no one will be interested in returning to the Ireland of the past.

So if leaving the EU is Misleading C*ap, then why are Norway and Switzerland doing OK compared to fully ingrained EU Members? May be they are free and use their initative to get off their asses and work hard.

I said your arguments for leaving the EU are misleading crap - there may be valid arguments out there for doing so but you've not presented them.

As to countries like Norway and Switzerland (that never 'left' the EU), you have to remember that Ireland is not either of these countries. You seem to be selling some sort of fantasy that Ireland is economically in a similar position to them, and we are not. Nowhere close.

You will find many Irish people are now very sick of the EU and alot are starting to question, whether we should even stay in a bloc that no longer listens to its citizens.

No one pretends that the EU is perfect or that people have not got valid grievances against it, however translating that to a mass movement to leave is another story.

I for one see no reason why we should....

But it's actually evident you're actively not looking - that you actively quoted UK and US trade figures with Ireland and omitted Eurozone figures that directly contradicted your assertion is proof that you're not interested in viewing the question objectively.

There is no such thing as Blind Nationalism... Just Loyalty to one's country, Traditional Values, Participating in idigenous customs and Promoting your own culture has never been a bad thing.

Of course there is a thing as blind nationalism - it's called jingoism and seeks to motivate against all reason in the name of an abstract concept.

Race is a pretentious word to distinguish a group of ethnic communities who share similar appearence or customs... I regard Human beings as the same but they differ because of Ethnic Origin, Customs and Culture and belief.

Then why did you introduce genetic terms such as ancestry and jus sanguinis to your definition of Irishness if race is so unimportant?

The Corinthian

sirromo wrote: »

I didn't know that. I thought the Germans used the term to refer to north Africa.

It probably originated there, but I have heard it more than once in Germany, mainly in Frankfurt, relating to Ireland prior to the nineties. Actually, it's often used for other countries too - typically those that should be Western in quality of life but are backward.

Live in Germany for a while and return to Ireland and you'll quickly realize what they mean (often while waiting for a bus in Dublin).

DaBrow

The Corinthian wrote: »

Of course there is a thing as blind nationalism - it's called jingoism and seeks to motivate against all reason in the name of an abstract concept.

Then why did you introduce genetic terms such as ancestry and jus sanguinis to your definition of Irishness if race is so unimportant?

How about these Links so you can change that mind... If you are willing to properly look?

http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreement.aspx
http://www.efta.int/about-efta/history.aspx
http://www.eeagrants.org/id/14
http://www.brugesgroup.com/mediacentre/index.live?article=10488
http://tfiafc.blogspot.com/2005/04/efta-vs-eu-163-words.html
http://www.currentconcerns.ch/index.php?id=864
http://www.udi.no/templates/Tema.aspx?id=9353
http://www.eu-norway.org/ARKIV/newsarchives/EEA_agreement_facts/
http://teameurope.info/node/713

If you wish to remain on topic and avoid just attacking the posters, that is more than enough information.

.............

It's funny how People with a chip on their shoulder or prejudice against Nationalism believe in the term Blind Nationalism; Multiculturalism as evidenced in the continent is a complete disaster and you need only look at the balkans to find out the consequences... A house built on division can never stand.

"Blind Nationalism" is or the accusation of Nazism in disguise... Just a slur

Humans are a Race.... Just as Klingons, Vulcans and Cardassians are a Race.

All people on this planet are part of the Human Race... A Universal Umbrella Term for diverse Ethnic Groups that are prevalent across particular geographic areas.

Irish People are an ethnic Group and idigenous to Ireland... The Irish Diaspora are no different and I would wish they had greater rights as my fellow countrymen... I believe People are Human Beings and
Race is a word I reject because of this.

The Corinthian

DaBrow wrote: »

If you wish to remain on topic and avoid just attacking the posters, that is more than enough information.

Enough information? Are you trying to preach?

I don't see the point of most of those links, other than a few generic information pages from the EFTA Web site the rest appear to opinion pieces (and rants from blogs). None of which seem terribly impressive.

It's funny how People with a chip on their shoulder or prejudice against Nationalism believe in the term Blind Nationalism; Multiculturalism as evidenced in the continent is a complete disaster and you need only look at the balkans to find out the consequences... A house built on division can never stand.

Who said I supported Multiculturalism? Sounds like as straw man to me.

"Blind Nationalism" is or the accusation of Nazism in disguise... Just a slur

No, blind nationalism is just that - blind nationalism

Humans are a Race.... Just as Klingons, Vulcans and Cardassians are a Race.

No. Humans are a species, Homo sapiens. Klingons, Vulcans and Cardassians are fictional.

Irish People are an ethnic Group and idigenous to Ireland...

Actually, Irish people are several ethnic groups indigenous to Ireland, including Scots-Irish and travelers.

The Irish Diaspora are no different and I would wish they had greater rights as my fellow countrymen...

Actually they are different. Most are not indigenous to Ireland and have not been so for generations.

I believe People are Human Beings and Race is a word I reject because of this.

Then why did you introduce genetic terms such as ancestry and jus sanguinis to your definition of Irishness if race is so unimportant?

Will you answer this time?

DaBrow

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually, Irish people are several ethnic groups indigenous to Ireland, including Scots-Irish and travelers.

Actually they are different. Most are not indigenous to Ireland and have not been so for generations.

Then why did you introduce genetic terms such as ancestry and jus sanguinis to your definition of Irishness if race is so unimportant?

Will you answer this time?

Travelers are Irish, The Scots originated from Ireland and if you actually look into a programme called "The Blood of the Irish"... You'll find 80% of Irish people are direct descendants of the original inhabitants and the other 20% have small traces of Viking, Norman and Spanish ancestry.

Jus Sanguinis means Right of Blood... Why shouldn't Diasporas have rights to return to their ancestral home?

(classification of human beings) Race is defined as this :the categorization of humans into populations or ancestral groups on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics.[1] The physical features commonly seen as indicating race are salient visual traits such as skin color, cranial or facial features and hair texture.
http://www.virginia.edu/woodson/courses/aas102%20%28spring%2001%29/articles/AAPA_race.pdf

It used to imply superiority and inferiority, which I object and discard completely.

Ethnicity is different because it is specific and That is a separate subject and NOT Relevant to the point of this thread... Demanding something better.
...................

You are just trying to derail this thread and I won't give you the satisfaction....

All your posts have been are just attacks and no constructive arguement to build a valid opposing case against leaving the EU.

You are just acting like a Troll who has no intention of engaging in debate,

The Corinthian

DaBrow wrote: »

Travelers are Irish, The Scots originated from Ireland and if you actually look into a programme called "The Blood of the Irish"... You'll find 80% of Irish people are direct descendants of the original inhabitants and the other 20% have small traces of Viking, Norman and Spanish ancestry.

Do you actually know what an ethnic group is? It is not simply a racial or genetic term, but often includes also cultural and religious factors and in this regard Scots-Irish and travelers are different ethnic groups.

You cant seem to get past the old genetics though, I note.

Jus Sanguinis means Right of Blood... Why shouldn't Diasporas have rights to return to their ancestral home?

It's not their home. It never was. It might have been the home of their great-great-great grandfather, but their home is somewhere else now. Culturally they are not Irish - Irish-Americans, for example, share very little in common culturally with someone who grew up in Ireland.

Instead, your emphasis is on a genetic lineage, regardless of whether this person actually shares any commonality with his so-called countrymen.

You are just trying to derail this thread and I won't give you the satisfaction....

No, I am asking a direct question as your definition of Irish seems to be entirely based on genetics. All of the criteria you've used are essentially racialist, with little or no reference to the other criteria that make up an ethnic group, let alone a nationality.

Best bit though is when you tried to use the Star Trek definition of a race as if it held some form of credibility. Gave me a real belly laugh.

It's relevance to the thread is evident as it betrays your true motivations for leaving the EU.

DaBrow

The Corinthian wrote: »

It's not their home. It never was. It might have been the home of their great-great-great grandfather, but their home is somewhere else now. Culturally they are not Irish - Irish-Americans, for example, share very little in common culturally with someone who grew up in Ireland.

Instead, your emphasis is on a genetic lineage, regardless of whether this person actually shares any commonality with his so-called countrymen.

No, I am asking a direct question as your definition of Irish seems to be entirely based on genetics. All of the criteria you've used are essentially racialist, with little or no reference to the other criteria that make up an ethnic group, let alone a nationality.

Best bit though is when you tried to use the Star Trek definition of a race as if it held some form of credibility. Gave me a real belly laugh.

It's relevance to the thread is evident as it betrays your true motivations for leaving the EU.

The only person close to being racist here is you... Against your own people.

The irish Diaspora have helped this country function through its darkest days and you refuse to acknowledge them. Allowing them to return is a sincere way of paying back their kindness... I have Family in the US who relate to Ireland and call themselves Irish; they culturally have alot in common with Irish people and practise the same traditions my family here in Ireland are familiar with, you have no right to deny them that right.

I've always supported our Diasporas right to return home... Even before Lisbon was rammed down our throat and I supported the EU.

The Generation Game shows how in touch with Ireland they are and how proud they are of their heritage, strong enough to return and build the country.

It's confirmed then... You have nothing to contribute to this discussion and I will officially ignore all your responses because you can't stay on topic.

What I have done is distinguish the difference between Race (Skin Colour + Appearance) & Ethnicity (Distinct Family Origin and Common Traits)... Completely irrelevant BTW
...................

EFTA States offer more freedom and power to their people, which you don't support or care about.

You haven't even looked at the links which are based upon fact, because you are afraid that you will agree with it...

I support leaving the EU because I'm sick of the direction is going: It demands more power and less rights to its citizens, everyday it appears to resemble a Capitalist Version of the USSR.

I don't want expansion; I don't want the EU to have the power to over-ride my country's soverignty and lecture us about what we should do and what we cannot.

Also, I want my Country back along with it's own interest rates and currency which can set its own value and be free of outside interference.

P.S.

Look at the EFTA links (5 of which are official), if you're brave enough and give 10 unique good reasons why we should stay in the EU.

Can you do that?

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

The Euro rate of exchange is too strong for Irish Exports to Grow... Everything here apart from fuel is at least 10% more expensive than in the North or Britain. Why are we holding onto a currency we have no control over?

Ireland has very little idigenous Industry... Our entire Economic Power relies on the UK & America whom we trade with on a higher level than our EU Neighbours. We cannot compete because we are too expensive to purchase goods & services from but we are importing like crazy! Why has no-one realised?

We had these problems before with our own exchange rate, around 1996/97 IIRC, 4/5 years after devaluation.. Why swap one currency we don't have much control over, for another one?

As regards indigenous industry, it's pathetic. We've had ten years of trading with with our biggest economic trading bloc, without currency risks and multi nationals still represent something like 80/90% of our exports. Too busy building houses I'm afraid.

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

Also, I want my Country back along with it's own interest rates and currency which can set its own value and be free of outside interference.

You are looking for the impossible in that respect, I'm afraid.

DaBrow

K-9 wrote: »

We had these problems before with our own exchange rate, around 1996/97 IIRC, 4/5 years after devaluation.. Why swap one currency we don't have much control over, for another one?

As regards indigenous industry, it's pathetic. We've had ten years of trading with with our biggest economic trading bloc, without currency risks and multi nationals still represent something like 80/90% of our exports. Too busy building houses I'm afraid.

Exactly why we'd be better off getting our resources back...

Iceland may have had a bang but they are recovering, the reason why is their currency is weaker and it is a great place to visit at this moment.

Businesses are flocking to take advantage of the low-cost base they now have, their fishing industry is helping them get through the bad weather at the moment... They don't want EU Membership because it would mean giving it up.

K-9 wrote: »

You are looking for the impossible in that respect, I'm afraid.

I don't know now....

You should see the first page, I think our days in the Eurozone are numbered and the reason is that the idea of a single currency for 16 different countries is doomed to fail.

The Corinthian

DaBrow wrote: »

The only person close to being racist here is you... Against your own people.

Huh? That makes no sense - I've actually rejected your narrow racial definition of Irish.

The irish Diaspora have helped this country function through its darkest days and you refuse to acknowledge them.

How did they do that exactly? Giving money to 'the cause'?

I have Family in the US who relate to Ireland and call themselves Irish; they culturally have alot in common with Irish people and practise the same traditions my family here in Ireland are familiar with, you have no right to deny them that right.

What traditions? Christmas? Halloween? St Patrick's Day? Give me a break.

They're not Irish. They're American. They may hold onto to a few scraps of traditions from the old country, but the old country moved on. Without them.

It's confirmed then... You have nothing to contribute to this discussion and I will officially ignore all your responses because you can't stay on topic.

I think you are more likely to ignore my responses because you do not like how they reflect upon you.

DaBrow

The Corinthian wrote: »

Huh? That makes no sense - I've actually rejected your narrow racial definition of Irish.

How did they do that exactly? Giving money to 'the cause'?

They're not Irish. They're American. They may hold onto to a few scraps of traditions from the old country, but the old country moved on. Without them.

I think you are more likely to ignore my responses because you do not like how they reflect upon you.

I have lived abroad and I can from greater experience than you; confirm what being Irish is away from home.

The Diaspora sent money to keep the country afloat in the form of remittances every week... They still do that to this day.

You forget Article 2 of our constitution:

"Article 2
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage."

Most Irish People agree with the latter part and intentionally with wisdom supported scrapping the stupid law of allowing Anyone with an irish Born-Child to Claim Citizenship, because it was very often achieved through dishonest means.

I have no wish to communicate with you because, you are not mature to actually debate the subject or deliberately attempt to derail the topic discussed because there is no opposing case for EFTA.
..............

I see you can't find any reasons to stay in the EU... Good Luck with that!!

The Corinthian

DaBrow wrote: »

I have lived abroad and I can from greater experience than you; confirm what being Irish is away from home.

What an arrogant assumption from someone who seems to have no clue about me.

The Diaspora sent money to keep the country afloat in the form of remittances every week...

This would be that self-sufficient country you were speaking of earlier...

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

Exactly why we'd be better off getting our resources back...

Iceland may have had a bang but they are recovering, the reason why is their currency is weaker and it is a great place to visit at this moment.

Businesses are flocking to take advantage of the low-cost base they now have, their fishing industry is helping them get through the bad weather at the moment... They don't want EU Membership because it would mean giving it up.




I don't know now....

You should see the first page, I think our days in the Eurozone are numbered and the reason is that the idea of a single currency for 16 different countries is doomed to fail.

Fair enough points, but again, we devalued around 92 and 4/5 years later we where back at square one.

I suppose you'd need to ask people from Iceland what it is like there. They had their referendum over the Icesave bank but can't access IMF and Scandinavian loans until they sort out a deal.

The fishing industry argument is often brought up alright. Wonder how their farming and multi national sector is getting on?

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

So what you're saying is this:

Yes, America and Britain make up the largest Export Markets that we have and the costs of goods and services from Here... Are more expensive than elsewhere? So they are not in anyway put off or will shop elsewhere in europe, even if they find the exact same product for a lower price and in the same quality?

Our Exports to them have plummetted and that has caused us a huge amount of pain... The Eurozone didn't even grow last year and shows no sign of improving soon... How can the eurozone be our biggest training partner?

They make up 32% and the UK & US combined make up 37% between the two.. Most of our trade is outside the Euro currency.

Ireland had the Punt fixed at the rate of €1.27 before conversion, I don't see how we can't bring back the Punt and pay it off at the rate of conversion.

The currency could tumble, but we would be able to pay off our debts and actually recover like the Icelanders are doing with a weaker Icelandic Currency.

The ECB has rates which do not represent our economic conditions and the rate of exchange is killing us... We are still too expensive to visit as a country.

OK, it's funny how you see 32% as not that significant, but emphasise 18% for the UK and USA. That to me, shows you aren't using logic in this topic.

Plus you seem to think everything is rosey with Britain and doomed in the Euro. There are signs of recovery in European countries, just like them, there are also poor figures coming out, just like them.

Now there is another way of looking at this. The value of our exports since joining the EEC has grown massively, even allowing for inflation etc. At that stage about 60% of our trade was with the UK. Things have changed to a situation that we now have a third of our trade with an economic bloc with one currency. The EEC and the Euro has been a success for our exports.

Why lose the advantages of having a third of our trade within the Euro?

What we need to be doing is using the advantages of being a member of a strong international currency and using it, not alone to create new markets in the Euro, but also Japan, China etc.

DaBrow

K-9 wrote: »

OK, it's funny how you see 32% as not that significant, but emphasise 18% for the UK and USA. That to me, shows you aren't using logic in this topic.

Plus you seem to think everything is rosey with Britain and doomed in the Euro. There are signs of recovery in European countries, just like them, there are also poor figures coming out, just like them.

Now there is another way of looking at this. The value of our exports since joining the EEC has grown massively, even allowing for inflation etc. At that stage about 60% of our trade was with the UK. Things have changed to a situation that we now have a third of our trade with an economic bloc with one currency. The EEC and the Euro has been a success for our exports.

Why lose the advantages of having a third of our trade within the Euro?

What we need to be doing is using the advantages of being a member of a strong international currency and using it, not alone to create new markets in the Euro, but also Japan, China etc.

What I'm saying is that 37% of Ireland's Exports go to the UK and the US... which is higher than the Eurozone and having a currency which is too pricey for British and Americans to puchase goods and services from Ireland is not helping us.

K-9... The fact is that Bloomberg, Societé Generale and CitiBank have over the last four months stated that Ireland along with Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal are not stable.

We will either leave the Eurozone or be forced out because we are so turbulent, Greece took a tumble today because they now have more debt to raise and that only strengthens why we should consider leaving for fear of defaulting.

Fact is we cannot function in the eurozone, we have no control over its value and the strong rate against the dollar and pound sterling are killing us... Tourism has gone down the drain and other industries that rely on foreign visitors.

EFTA as a Bloc has exclusive Trade Agreements with the Likes of Japan & Korea, they might be small but these agreements have allowed them to have favourable trade with each country.

Please look back at the earlier links I posted... If Greece Defaults or any of the other troubled countries, the Euro will implode because when one state fails, the rest will follow.

maggy_thatcher

Pulling out of the EU would require a constitutional amendment (to stop making the EU law paramount), so you'd have to persuade the rest of the people to agree with you.

In the very unlikely event of this succeeding, what I would imagine happening is that before the results of the referendum came out, there would be a run on every single bank in the country as everybody empties their savings accounts, transferring them to banks that are going to remain in the EU (so as to keep their money in Euros).

Such a run would bankrupt the banks (even more than they already are!), and as most of them are practically nationalized right now, would either bankrupt the country, or trigger the bank guarantee scheme to cover all these savings. At this point, we'd still be in Euro mode (as this would be occurring before the departure), so we couldn't just cause the reincarnated Punt to just be worthless...

Scofflaw

DaBrow wrote: »

What I'm saying is that 37% of Ireland's Exports go to the UK and the US... which is higher than the Eurozone and having a currency which is too pricey for British and Americans to puchase goods and services from Ireland is not helping us.

K-9... The fact is that Bloomberg, Societé Generale and CitiBank have over the last four months stated that Ireland along with Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal are not stable.

We will either leave the Eurozone or be forced out because we are so turbulent, Greece took a tumble today because they now have more debt to raise and that only strengthens why we should consider leaving for fear of defaulting.

Fact is we cannot function in the eurozone, we have no control over its value and the strong rate against the dollar and pound sterling are killing us... Tourism has gone down the drain and other industries that rely on foreign visitors.

EFTA as a Bloc has exclusive Trade Agreements with the Likes of Japan & Korea, they might be small but these agreements have allowed them to have favourable trade with each country.

Please look back at the earlier links I posted... If Greece Defaults or any of the other troubled countries, the Euro will implode because when one state fails, the rest will follow.

It's already been pointed out to you that the earlier links you posted contained predictions based on assumptions that have not come to be, and that the claim that Societé Generale or Bloomberg have as companies claimed what you say they've claimed isn't borne out even by the links you've posted - it's clear, instead, that at best we are talking about the opinions of individual analysts, and contrarian ones at that.

You're assuming that the euro will fail, and seeking statements from others that "support" your position. When those sources change their position, you abandon them, rather than updating your own position. While, clearly, the very existence of the euro means it is capable of failure, you are not predicting that failure in any meaningful sense - you're simply saying it will fail because you wish that to be the case. That casts very strong doubt on your ability to predict what life might be like for Ireland in an EFTA/EEA arrangement rather than the EU.

regards,
Scofflaw

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

What I'm saying is that 37% of Ireland's Exports go to the UK and the US... which is higher than the Eurozone and having a currency which is too pricey for British and Americans to puchase goods and services from Ireland is not helping us.

K-9... The fact is that Bloomberg, Societé Generale and CitiBank have over the last four months stated that Ireland along with Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal are not stable.

We will either leave the Eurozone or be forced out because we are so turbulent, Greece took a tumble today because they now have more debt to raise and that only strengthens why we should consider leaving for fear of defaulting.

Fact is we cannot function in the eurozone, we have no control over its value and the strong rate against the dollar and pound sterling are killing us... Tourism has gone down the drain and other industries that rely on foreign visitors.

EFTA as a Bloc has exclusive Trade Agreements with the Likes of Japan & Korea, they might be small but these agreements have allowed them to have favourable trade with each country.

Please look back at the earlier links I posted... If Greece Defaults or any of the other troubled countries, the Euro will implode because when one state fails, the rest will follow.

The UK is a declining market for us, the Euro rising. It is as simple as that.

60 odd million versus a 300 million Euro market.

Why would you abandon the main reason for our biggest economic bloc, to save a dying market?

maggy_thatcher

DaBrow wrote: »

What I'm saying is that 37% of Ireland's Exports go to the UK and the US... which is higher than the Eurozone and having a currency which is too pricey for British and Americans to puchase goods and services from Ireland is not helping us.

From the CSO
Country|Imports |Exports
UK|€19,202,700,000|€15,864,300,000
Rest of EU|€17,353,000,000|€37,976,300,000
US|€6,762,800,000|€16,674,300,000
Rest of the world|€14,266,300,000|€15,879,500,000
Total|€57,584,800,000|€86,394,400,000


By far our biggest export destination is the EU. Our biggest import source is the UK. If we dropped out of the euro, our import bill would skyrocket as we had to keep purchasing sterling with a rapidly decreasing currency, while our export revenue would fall as we'd be providing goods cheaper...is that really what you want?

K-9

DaBrow wrote: »

What I'm saying is that 37% of Ireland's Exports go to the UK and the US... which is higher than the Eurozone and having a currency which is too pricey for British and Americans to puchase goods and services from Ireland is not helping us.

K-9... The fact is that Bloomberg, Societé Generale and CitiBank have over the last four months stated that Ireland along with Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal are not stable.

We will either leave the Eurozone or be forced out because we are so turbulent, Greece took a tumble today because they now have more debt to raise and that only strengthens why we should consider leaving for fear of defaulting.

Fact is we cannot function in the eurozone, we have no control over its value and the strong rate against the dollar and pound sterling are killing us... Tourism has gone down the drain and other industries that rely on foreign visitors.

EFTA as a Bloc has exclusive Trade Agreements with the Likes of Japan & Korea, they might be small but these agreements have allowed them to have favourable trade with each country.

Please look back at the earlier links I posted... If Greece Defaults or any of the other troubled countries, the Euro will implode because when one state fails, the rest will follow.

Yes, but you are adding 2 declining markets and ignoring the growing market. No logic to it at all!

We have absolutely zero control over our own currency. I'll make the point for a third time, we devalued in 92, 4/5 years later, the punt was worth £1.10 Stg, about, Euro for the Great British pound.

DaBrow

K-9 wrote: »

The UK is a declining market for us, the Euro rising. It is as simple as that.

60 odd million versus a 300 million Euro market.

Why would you abandon the main reason for our biggest economic bloc, to save a dying market?

The UK is out of recession and the Eurozone failed to Grow, they are not solidly strong but they are better than us and alot of the european Neighbours for sure.

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's already been pointed out to you that the earlier links you posted contained predictions based on assumptions that have not come to be, and that the claim that Societé Generale or Bloomberg have as companies claimed what you say they've claimed isn't borne out even by the links you've posted - it's clear, instead, that at best we are talking about the opinions of individual analysts, and contrarian ones at that.

You're assuming that the euro will fail, and seeking statements from others that "support" your position. When those sources change their position, you abandon them, rather than updating your own position. While, clearly, the very existence of the euro means it is capable of failure, you are not predicting that failure in any meaningful sense - you're simply saying it will fail because you wish that to be the case. That casts very strong doubt on your ability to predict what life might be like for Ireland in an EFTA/EEA arrangement rather than the EU.

regards,
Scofflaw

http://www.businessworld.ie/livenews.htm?a=2581682 - Citi: Irish debt in "eye of the storm"

I may not be a convincing guy and this is only a forum, but there is an alternative that is possible for us to use in the case of leaving the Eurozone and EU. By staying within the EEA Agreement that allows trade between the EU & EFTA.

The Euro will fall because you would need fiscal union aswell as Monetary Union, that doesn't exist and will lead to its failure...

The Eurozone Market hasn't grown and it is still technically in a recession with no quick growth in sight... This was confirmed several days ago.

The Germans and French along with the ECB are not taking the PIIGS seriously is how over stretched they are.... The EuroZone Reserves are not enough to pay off the combined debt of the most endebted countries.

The Storm hasn't hit Spain yet, but when it does it will be nasty... We are worse off than the Greeks and ignoring that reality is reckless.

K-9 wrote: »

I'll make the point for a third time, we devalued in 92, 4/5 years later, the punt was worth £1.10 Stg, about, Euro for the Great British pound.

In 2002, The Punt was worth €1.27 and the Sterling was worth €1.60... So the Punt did value favourably for UK/US exports around the time of conversion but when the euro was adopted, inflation went through the roof.

I remember IR£2.00 drinks costing €3.00 instead of €2.54...