I'm getting sick of some of the people in this game.

TheDoc

Hardly prawned.

We agree to disagree.

Hit and expertise gear can be gotten from nomal 80 dungeons for a reason, its the stepping stone into heroics, but clearly people just skip it now.

Either way the choice is to you.

And no one is having a pop at fresh 80 dings. We have all being there, I've been there five times.

But when I ding a fresh 80, I go to the effort of grabbing myself the required crafted gear and instance gear to have me at a point where I can be useful and be merited in a normal dungeon.

Its evidently just a massive shift in how this game has gone obviously. I understand people skipping naxx and ulduar, even toc10. My last 2 alts havnt needed to go there, heroics, badge gear, toc25 then into ICC.

But a hit cap and expertise cap for melle is something you will always need, I dont see why youd skimp on it when it clearly puts you ad a disadvantage : /

Still feel its horrid advice to a new player not to advise them to look into their hit cap and have it capped.

A) Gets the player familiar with their most important dungeon/raid stat
Gets the player familiar with the notion you have to sometimes gear to reach a certain stat limit ( expertise, hit, crit,haste)
C) Might interest the player to take a few minutes to read up on their class in more detail.
D) Gets the player into the mental mode of pre planning gear acquisition.

][cEMAN**

Don't get me wrong, I agree that certain criteria regarding gearing need to be met when stepping into a raid situation, because there are certain mins you need to reach in order to be worth your spot in the raid. I'm just saying that in 5 mans, it's not as important. Wow is a bit like a playground. It's OK if certain people stand over there and do their own thing, and i'll not bother them (social). Sometimes we need to pass each other by (randoms) and i'll nod and say hello. I'm over here in my area of the playground (raiding), so if you want to step into my area (group) you have to be like the other people in that area. It gets blurred sometimes though when people think the whole playground is theirs, and people get trodden on. It's essentially bullying, even if they don't realise they're doing it, and think they're doing it for the best.

Some people will play this game and never learn anything about their character. I nosey at people who walk by from time to time, look at their gear, and look at their builds. I see so called top players speccing into pvp talents when they raid pve 100% and think "WTF?". I offer advice to some people. Some take it, some throw it back in my face. Their choice, I offered, and I usually do it in a way so as not to say "OMG you're wrong" but rather "You might find this'll happen if, and this is useful, and this is nice to have sometimes if you need to..."

With some people though it takes time for them to want to do more with their characters. Some people are just pig headed about things. It might take being a new rogue in a group with another rogue and him suddenly thinking "I want to dps like this guy" and then asking for tips.

A lot of people forget that there's a difference between 5 man dungeons and raids though. Being forward focused is great for progressing, but then looking backwards to dungeons and expecting the same standards often puts new people off. The same kind of people who, if they just did it for a while till they enjoyed it, and then wanted to progress, would take the next step and learn their class. For some, they hit 80 and get into pugs with people who put them off playing the game.

WOW is an MMORPG. The MM part is important, because without other players you'd have a more limited game. Think low population servers where you can't find groups or get items/mats needed. As much as I hate the arrogant little pricks who play this game sometimes, and do nothing but spam trade, or kick people from 5 mans for having a GS under 5k, they're needed in the game. It's just letting new players know that they're not the only type of people who play wow.

In fact, what I normally suggest to people in guilds who raid, is to set up a wish list. Doing a list of what they expect to get out of the raid forces them to look at what their character needs, how to get it, and a goal to reach. On top of that, the class leaders can then look at the list and see if the person is getting stats wrong, or if they're just a bit off. That way, they can talk to them and advise them, when previously it might have gone overlooked because they were doing 'OK' in raids. Also, in cases of loot council, it makes it easier to see what BiS is for some classes, and that it's more needed for 1 person than another.

ravydavygravy

Nice to see such heated debate ;-)

I simply didn't realise that you could keep doing normal dungeons once you hit 80 - as I've been levelling up, the lower dungeons keep disappearing off the random dungeon finder, and I figured that once you hit 80, your only option was to run heroic versions of what you've already done.

I enjoy pugs, but I like to pull my weight - the problem is that as a new player (less than 3 months in game), there is a bewildering amount of data to learn - up to now, thanks to lots of reading, I've been concentrating on Agility, Intellect, AP, Hit and Crit on my gear (stamina seems to be a given), so I guess I'm trying to go the right way:

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Wildhammer&cn=Garnath

But remember that new players rely on people like you lot to help them learn and understand, so that they simply aren't a waste of space in dungeons. I just tried to read this and while it starts simple, it quickly gets complicated for me: http://www.wowwiki.com/Hit - so all advice is welcome :-)

Dave

DeVore

The last words I ever read in WOW were from a shamen in a top end dungeon (70 at the time). He had just wiped us by not allowing the tank to build up aggro and pulled the primary mob on himself and consequently on the healer.

"Wots 'aggro'??"

DeV.

Robby91

ravydavygravy wrote: »

Nice to see such heated debate ;-)

I simply didn't realise that you could keep doing normal dungeons once you hit 80 - as I've been levelling up, the lower dungeons keep disappearing off the random dungeon finder, and I figured that once you hit 80, your only option was to run heroic versions of what you've already done.

I enjoy pugs, but I like to pull my weight - the problem is that as a new player (less than 3 months in game), there is a bewildering amount of data to learn - up to now, thanks to lots of reading, I've been concentrating on Agility, Intellect, AP, Hit and Crit on my gear (stamina seems to be a given), so I guess I'm trying to go the right way:

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Wildhammer&cn=Garnath

But remember that new players rely on people like you lot to help them learn and understand, so that they simply aren't a waste of space in dungeons. I just tried to read this and while it starts simple, it quickly gets complicated for me: http://www.wowwiki.com/Hit - so all advice is welcome :-)

Dave

Well, as regards the normal dungeons at 80, I don't think they will disappear until you exceed the recommended level for them (I don't think you're gonna be level 81 any time before Cataclysm ). Although, it's very likely that you won't be able to enter Heroics the moment you reach Level 80 (unless you're well-prepared with Bind on Equip/craftable gear at Item Level 187 and upwards) so it would be foolish to lock players out of normals without giving any access to the Heroic modes :P

Although, if I may say so, you are the kind of new player I would like to see in a Heroic group. You may not have the gear required to speed through the run (although, a leisurely relaxed pace is always great :P) but you do sound like you're making the effort to do a bit of research (and appear to have a willingness to take advice and learn from it) and this, IMO, is immensely more important than having a certain gear/stat requirement before entering Heroics.

Gear can always be improved, but the same cannot be said for a lazy/stubborn attitude towards your character when participating in group-based content.

-

I've never played a Hunter, but as far as I know, your Hit Rating requirement will be 6% (approximately 195 Hit Rating, excluding talents) for a mob 2 levels higher than you (i.e. a boss in a Level 80 Heroic dungeon) and 8% (263 Hit Rating, excluding talents) for bosses in Level 80 raid encounters. Any amount of hit above those 2 percentages will not increase your potential damage-dealing in any way (you can't reduce your chance to miss below 0 :P).

If possible, aim to get as close as possible to 8% (if you plan on raiding) - for every 1% hit chance gained from talents, you can subtract ~33 (it's 32-point-something, but I forget the decimal portion) from the required rating to have a 100% chance to hit under normal circumstances (i.e. no debuffs). Hopefully that makes sense of Hit Rating for you Also, refer to the Wowhead Hunter forums when in doubt, very informative and (generally) friendly if you read the stickies in advance Elitist Jerks Hunter forums is also great for information but it's more like a manual/reference in that there's a huge amount of information there, but I don't think it's a great place to get your day-to-day enquiries answered.

TheDoc

Dave you are on the right track, and as I mentioned before you are getting in the practices early. Cause throughout your wow playing days, you will refer to alot of guides and internet sits, aswell as people, as to how to go about improving yourself.

You cant do it alone, no one can or ever has, it comes with getting help. And lets be straight on something, reading back you could interpret I'm an elitist prik, but thats far from the truth. The point I'm making is not how I dispise those without a certain stat cap, its how I loath the people who just completely ignore it.

Plenty of times I've pointed out something in a heroic, how to aid a character, and most of the time its taken on board positively through discussion. But when its a case of " get a grip mate its only a heroic" thats what annoys me, cause thats someone blatingly knowing they want to be carried, the vibe I got off icemans first post which pretty much set me off.

Dave notice how already, at level 70 you have items with expertise and hit, these can be gathered easily on your route to 80, so that when you ding, you dont even have to worry about it, just jump into heroics. You can achieve your caps before you even ding, easy peasy.

As Robby says, your really on the right path and you have the right attitude. And its all one big circle, the stuff your going to learn, your going to pass onto someone in your guild, a friend, or back here on the forums.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-hunter/?PHPSESSID=6b49e0d7a11d7e3321080e06ff3fd0dd

Thats the best link I can hand you. And for anyone really looking for class info. I find elitistjerks ( another good website) to be a bit heavy on number crunching sometimes when you just want a straight anwser.

In that hunter forum,( and any class forum) you usually find a class guide, for each spec etc.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-hunter/the-hunter-sticky/

That link there should really tell you all oyu need to know. A casual read of that on your way to 80 and you should be ready to rock n roll. It will tell you all you need to know about your specs, optimum rotations and everything to do with your class.


The amount of hit you need depends on variable factors.

263 hit rating - 8% normally
230 hit rating – with Draenai aura
164 hit rating - with 3/3 FA
131 hit rating – with 3/3 FA and Draenai aura

Thats the hit rating for a raiding hunter. Draenai aura, is a passive aura a draenai class gives to a group. It accounts for 1% hit rating.

Now a normal level 80 dungeon requires 6% hit, where as a 80 heroic requires 7% and a raid requires 8% ( in most cases might be wrong but think im ok in this instance) <---(awesome unintentional pun)

So compared to other classes, the hunters hit rating is pretty low. I dont know the exact number but I'd say a hunters hit rating in a heroic is about 230. Now I usually always account for a dranei being in my group. Its always the case in my raids guaranteed, but is also usually the case in randoms. So straight away thats 1%. So say thats another 30 off

That means to be optimal in your heroic run, you need 200 hit. You have 55 already on your gear. Now remember you probably have talents that provide you with hit.

Now I notice you are not speced into Focus Aim, that provides you with 3% hit, so I'd advise you take that into your talent build, its on the first line of marksman.

So already what do we see?

You need 8% to raid
You get 1% from a dranei, always there, so lets take that into account.
You are at 7% hit required, but you are going to spec 3/3 Focused Aim, thats 3%.

Now instead of needing 8% from gear, you only need 4%. Thats 180 hit rating ( roughly) So your already nearly there, with so much more hit rating gear to pick up from instances and quests from 70-80.

See its not that hard to get your hit rating. And your in a nice position that come 80, with the right bit of planning, you will be able to jump into heroics, be hit capped, and know you will be pulling your weight.

Gummy Panda

I've been quit from WoW for about a year now. I've thought about going back and playing my DK again but this thread has reminded me of why I left

One of my old guildmates was telling me he was doing a random heroic and was told his GS is too low. He then showed the person his tier 10.

I think people read into these WoW ideas like "All PuGs are terrible", blindly believe it and then act like a dick in a PuG cause they assume it's the case.

nix

Meh, the game is what you make of it.

Dont like assholes? Then dont look for them, make friends and stick with them! Do your heroics with them, if you go in on your own your increasing your chances of being surrounded by dopes.

There are annoying kids and "adults" in this game, if i notice people bitching and moaning in a heroic i just switch off and dont get involved, or if im feeling the need to verbally flail an idiot i will

Same goes for BG's, just premade and you will have great fun.

If you dont like constantly being surrounded by jerk offs then simply steer clear.

There will always be the ones that get in your face from time to time but thats life, if i get into an argument irl i aint gonna ragequit and jump in front of a train

People run around this game too much on their own, its an MMO, your ment to interact and make friends and kickass together!

][cEMAN**

TheDoc wrote: »

But when its a case of " get a grip mate its only a heroic" thats what annoys me, cause thats someone blatingly knowing they want to be carried, the vibe I got off icemans first post which pretty much set me off.

Seen plenty of people looking to be carried. Usually a GTFO situation. Recount can point it out quickly. People with gear who only show up a melee swing, or hunters who only show up pet dmg. When it comes to people who are trying though, as far as i'm concerned, they have as much right to be there as anybody else, no matter how they gear themselves. They're trying to play, rather than trying to be the best.

I've posted information on these forums before, trying to help people, and pointing out the numbers and reasons for the information i've given. I openly encourage everyone to better themselves in the game, if they so wish to. But some people don't play it that way. Just the same way you could have FPS games where people just want to run around and try to hit people, or drive a tank etc. They don't have to be the best person for the job, because they're just looking to play. More so in MMORPGs because they pay for it month by month.

The unfortunate thing is you can't tell people what to do. You can help them, and they can take the help or not.

So if my original post made you think I was encouraging people to take the piss and get carried in dungeons, it wasn't. I'd kick anyone who doesn't pull their weight. Got so bad one day that by the end of a UK HC, I was the only one on the boss. I couldn't kick the others because they were together, and tbh it was quicker me soloing the boss than leaving the group and waiting for the random debuff to reset. They didn't kick me, because they saw I wanted to finish, and that I could solo it. Pathetic. But these things you have to deal with from time to time.

I recently put in a ticket to blizzard about their random group system and kick mechanics. Didn't get a favourable response.

Drakar

elexes wrote: »

( dose anyone know a program that will put my chat into a txt document for me so i can log everything typed ? )

/chatlog ?

uncle_sam_ie

ravydavygravy wrote: »

Nice to see such heated debate ;-)

I simply didn't realise that you could keep doing normal dungeons once you hit 80 - as I've been levelling up, the lower dungeons keep disappearing off the random dungeon finder, and I figured that once you hit 80, your only option was to run heroic versions of what you've already done.

I enjoy pugs, but I like to pull my weight - the problem is that as a new player (less than 3 months in game), there is a bewildering amount of data to learn - up to now, thanks to lots of reading, I've been concentrating on Agility, Intellect, AP, Hit and Crit on my gear (stamina seems to be a given), so I guess I'm trying to go the right way:

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Wildhammer&cn=Garnath

But remember that new players rely on people like you lot to help them learn and understand, so that they simply aren't a waste of space in dungeons. I just tried to read this and while it starts simple, it quickly gets complicated for me: http://www.wowwiki.com/Hit - so all advice is welcome :-)

Dave

At least your coming into this game better then I did three years ago. My first character was a warrior and I didn't have a feckin clue. At LV 35 I was in vender gear and then when I did put greens on I was stacking intellect. I didn't know anything about spell rotation, so was just spamming what ever seemed to work best. " Want to tank" "Whaat??". It wasn't until a nice Druid came along and help explain a few things.
When you hit 80 try the site Maxdps to help with your gear selection. What I do is when I get a character to 77 I start doing all randoms so by the time I'm 80 most of my questing greens are gone and I have a few epics to start my way to the heroics and then to the real fun. Raiding!

Magill

I for one actually used to enjoy getting newbies in my random dailies. I enjoyed helping them clear a dungeon that they would probably otherwise struggle to clear, yeah i'd be doing 50% of the dmg while healing, but the fact that the gear that dropped would likely be an upgrade for one of them was pretty cool.

doc, I think your forgetting how bad you were at the game when you first dinged max level, im sure you were pretty bad, like i was and pretty much everyone. Its a learning curve, the problem is, hc dungeons are at the bottom of the curve... thats were ppl start out when they ding max level now !!! If there was no triumph/frost badges to be got in HC's, im pretty damn sure you wouldnt still be doing them unless you had just dinged 80 and had 50hit rating.

ravydavygravy

Ok, so we kinda derailed this thread, but last question on heroics - what minimum stats do you reckon people (me) should be aiming for (Nelf Hunter, MM DPS) before they (I) start running heroics, and the order of their priority - I'm guessing something like:

• Hit 200+
• Agi ??
• Ranged AP ?? (n00b alert - is this gained from Regular +AP you get on items?)
• Crit Rating ??
• HP ?? (to avoid one-shots)
• Mana ?? (to keep up the DPS - which should be around...)
• Other things I'm unaware of ???

Yes, I realise I'm several weeks away from running heroics. Yes, I'd like to be prepared as much as possible when I hit 80.

Dave

Magill

You shouldnt worry about your stats m8, my advice, once you ding 80, take about 400-500g and head to the ah, try and replace your worst bits of gear with lvl 80 blues and cheap epic's. If possible get some cheap enchants aswel. And you should be ready to go.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-hunter/the-hunter-sticky/

You probably already read that, but its got everything you need to know about endgame hunters.

ravydavygravy

Perfect - thats got plenty - I realise TheDoc had pointed me at this before, but hadn't got round to checking it out yet, bad Dave....

Gummy Panda

Damn you guys!!

I now have a craving to play wow. I miss some of my old guildmates but I probably just level up a new main for cata or just farm heroics for badges for DK.

I was clean for a year!

Scram

i agree with the whole "not being carred" thing in PuG's i always do the quests at lvl 80 where you get blue rewards the items are not great but there at least a start and show ive tried to gear up. But i dont complain if someone isnt well geared as long as there trying heck ive been there where people moan at your DPS show recount after a boss in a PuG..totaly pointless.

Ive met my fair share of idiots in PuG's too and mainly there all druids for some reason no offence to druids but some seem to think they are gods gift in wow. From healers who moan that its taken too long..cause either the tank is slow or dps isnt up to their standards.

Its the reason guilds were invented tbh and why im still in my guild after 4 years. I dont raid i dont see have the time or will too do so the game is about fun for me and if folks dont like that then tough really.

Robby91

ravydavygravy wrote: »

Ok, so we kinda derailed this thread, but last question on heroics - what minimum stats do you reckon people (me) should be aiming for (Nelf Hunter, MM DPS) before they (I) start running heroics, and the order of their priority - I'm guessing something like:

• Hit 200+
• Agi ??
• Ranged AP ?? (n00b alert - is this gained from Regular +AP you get on items?)
• Crit Rating ??
• HP ?? (to avoid one-shots)
• Mana ?? (to keep up the DPS - which should be around...)
• Other things I'm unaware of ???

Yes, I realise I'm several weeks away from running heroics. Yes, I'd like to be prepared as much as possible when I hit 80.

Dave

Aim for 6% Hit, although it won't be a big deal if you're short (since Focused Aim will cover half of this requirement (3%, which is approximately 98 rating, leaving you to pick up the other 98 rating yourself which should be easy enough even with quest gear alone) - if you don't have it, it's no big deal.
You won't be capable of reaching your maximum potential DPS until you reach the appropriate hit cap, but it's going to be extraordinarily difficult to do so anyway with overgeared players running through Heroics and killing everything in 30sec or less :P

Health, for a DPS, in the 3.0 5-mans (since you won't have access to 3.2 or 3.3 dungeons for a while after dinging 80, due to gear requirements) isn't hugely necessary - unless you're passing up ALL the quest gear that has some Stamina on it (in favour of no base stat or Agility only), you should have sufficient health to survive most attacks that will be thrown at a DPS'er (having a health potion ready, just incase, is quite useful though )

Not really sure of any amount of AP/Crit you should have, but it's not a big deal while you're gearing up - assuming you acquire the right kind of gear, these numbers will bring themselves up in good time.

At any rate, if you know how to play a Hunter, you will easily be able to pull your weight, when compared to your gear level.

Although, to sum it all up...

Magill wrote:

You shouldnt worry about your stats m8

Suzie_Woozie

Aye, to be honest, my hunter alt has about 4% hit, never bothered with the talents, and she manages more than fine in heroics. Aim for cap, but don't stress about it: any better geared players will ramp up no bother on boss fights, so your DPS won't really matter all that much, and on trash you don't need more than a handful of hit, which you'll get through talents/gear without even trying.

Generally, if you're breaking 1.5k DPs, only the biggest douchebags will be moaning at you, so cobble together what you can and see how it goes.

Also, if you keep doing your daily random normal on the way up, you'll have a few Triumph to get some nice pieces when you ding or shortly after, which can make a massive difference (my hunter got two pieces of T9 seconds after dinging, but she got her final few levels exclusively by doing a random a day, poor neglected third character).

bad2dabone

i had the pleasure of being kicked from an ICC10 there yesterday on my priest. The situation was we had 2 healers, myself and a shaman. On Marrowgar, a simple fight,
but there was only 1 tank with a Ret Paladin to soak up the Saber Lashes. Anyhow I was thinking this strategy was doomed to failure, and surely enough it did when the other healer got impaled by bone spike graveyard. I couldnt keep up with that much healing, admittedly, but there are not many who could. Anyhow one guy says in raid that I need to be kicked, another guy links the healing meter, 60-40 in my favor and says the shaman needs to be kicked, I say we need another proper tank or another healer and lose some of the weak dpsers who weren't attacking the bone spikes and suddenly the Raid Leader, a ****ing unguilded retard with 3.5k dps, kicks me from the group.

I swear I felt the touch of nerdrage.

However I soon got over it and found another group.

The lesson I learned is: Don't join pugs with unguilded morons as raid leader who don't know about the mechanics of a fight.