I'm getting sick of some of the people in this game.

bad2dabone

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;65264535']50k unbuffed?

no no, 50k plus when buffed, about 55k is what I should be aiming for in 10 mans I'm told.

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;65264535'] the emphasis is on Effective Health - Stamina & Amour

interesting, can you give me any figures on what I should be aiming for?
I just logged onto armory to check my armor value and was horrified to see it quite low - until i saw my char was holding her fishing rod and not her sword and board!

2 Espressi

copeyhagen wrote: »

didnt i read that def is / was being removed?

Aye, there's a bunch of changes to the stats in CataL
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055848766

][cEMAN**

bad2dabone wrote: »

no no, 50k plus when buffed, about 55k is what I should be aiming for in 10 mans I'm told.

That's fair. You're looking at just under 40 unbuffed to reach that, before the 10% buff. Obviously if you can get 50k fully raid buffed, the 10% will put you to 55k. You can do the earlier bosses with less than this (about 48k+/37k unbuffed), but to do it comfortably 50k is a good figure. Paladins are overpowered when it comes to standing firm in a boss fight now, so matching the other tanks for HP, playing right, you should be able to outlast them.

bad2dabone wrote: »

interesting, can you give me any figures on what I should be aiming for?
I just logged onto armory to check my armor value and was horrified to see it quite low - until i saw my char was holding her fishing rod and not her sword and board!

You'd be best to aim for about 30k buffed again to be comfortable. More is better. Armor reduces the % of physical damage you take. Stamina can soak up magical damage. If it's all physical though, it works out as

Effective Health is approx = (Health / (100-reduction%))*100 (other factors come into play like class talents such as paladin Ardent Defender reducing dmg further below 35% HP)

%Reduction = (Armor / (Armor - 22167.5 + 467.5 * Enemy_Level)) * 100

So as an example for effective health, if you had 65% reduced dmg vs a boss, and 30k health, that would be (30,000 / (100-65))*100 = (30,000 / 35)*100 = 857.14*100 = 85,714 effective health before class talents.

The more armour you have, the less physical damage you take as a %, so your effective health (amount of dmg you can take before dying without heals) goes up.

As I mentioned before though, if it's magical damage or unavoidable damage without reductions like resists, large amounts of health will help soak it up, so you're not getting 1 or 2 shotted, and the healers have time to react.

StinkyMunkey

Was tanking a HC last night, and a rogue kept pulling mobs, because i was stopping to loot bodies. So i said "ffs, stop pulling please", the response was "ffs move faster". I told him, we go at my pace (which mostly depends on how good the healer is), so the rogue pulled again while i stopped for 3 secs to loot a body, i told em to enjoy his repair bill and left. Finished the daily i was doing and joined a new hc within seconds.

Mind you it's not always bad, i mostly find people will take the good with the bad. GS and DPS mean feck all to me, i was one of those ppl struggling with my char, dps & GS for along time (im now just under 5k from just doing hc's).

Ive come along way since ive started tanking, and never have problems now in hc's, other than with HoR (think thats the one, the one with the lich king following u). When i first started hc's as a dps, i didnt have a clue about tacs on any of them, i was always a pug. Now i know all the hc's inside and out, and i never have any problem what so ever with taking time out to explain things to ppl and give them advice on how not to make the same mistake again.

Berns

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

Was tanking a HC last night, and a rogue kept pulling mobs, because i was stopping to loot bodies. So i said "ffs, stop pulling please", the response was "ffs move faster". I told him, we go at my pace (which mostly depends on how good the healer is), so the rogue pulled again while i stopped for 3 secs to loot a body, i told em to enjoy his repair bill and left. Finished the daily i was doing and joined a new hc within seconds.

Try bein a skinner as a tank :rolleyes: Especially if theres another skinner in the group and its something like VH where can't really pause

If the rogue had any brains he woulda at least been using tricks of the trade to misdirect the mobs onto you

I have a rogue main, and dk tank(skinner) alt :P

copeyhagen

the problem with the game is sweden

StinkyMunkey

copeyhagen wrote: »

the problem with the game is sweden

Ive heard that said on more than one occassion. It seems WoW is just not a game to be enjoyed, its a whole lifestyle, with no room for anyone who doesnt eat, sleep and breath WoW:eek:.

Overheal

HAs Wintergrasp always been such a horrible experience or is it just now that Blizzard is cashing in on Faction changes they dont give a damn anymore.

StinkyMunkey

You should try WG on my server (bloodfeather), when the option to transfer factions came in, everyone and there mother went horde on my server, and ally was already in the minority.

Saying that though, doing WG with 175k hp can be queit funny. Its fun one shotting horde when you have buffs you get from fighting with 10 ally against a 100 horde;).

gungun

was doing an instance today, tank and healer were insulting each other for the whole bloody duration of it, i asked them politely to stop bickering and to get on with the instance and i was ignored
so i told them in a slightly more.... aggressive manner and i was swiftly told by the tank that i have less GS then him so i should stfu
i was very close to leaving at that point but i had to hold on for the daily
i hope to christ i dont get another retard like that again but i think the odds are stacked against me:P

TechnoPool

your taking this game very serious ^^

pablomakaveli

gungun wrote: »

was doing an instance today, tank and healer were insulting each other for the whole bloody duration of it, i asked them politely to stop bickering and to get on with the instance and i was ignored
so i told them in a slightly more.... aggressive manner and i was swiftly told by the tank that i have less GS then him so i should stfu
i was very close to leaving at that point but i had to hold on for the daily
i hope to christ i dont get another retard like that again but i think the odds are stacked against me:P

I always hate when a group starts bickering because it nearly always mean that people will leave and ill have to queue for another dungeon. In my experience, it nearly always seems to be the tank who initiates the arguing.

Rei-chan

I'm rather chatty and so talk in trade often enough. Nice things, of course. Well, maybe some trolling >.> I never say anything offensive.
So sometimes it happens that when I'm on alts, people will find out who I am and be like "Omg ossum!" or ignore me.
The other day in BG I got called a "trade spamming hoe" and some other unpleasant names...And just because I chat! Silly people...

elexes

atm my guild have moved my postion in the guild from helping with raids to reports on the general mood and atmosphere of the guild due to childish bickering withing /g and private whispers between the tanks. i have to post a summery on how each member acted at certian points.

( dose anyone know a program that will put my chat into a txt document for me so i can log everything typed ? )

last night i got into a lovely raid group . we wiped loads. no one quit we got 7 bosses down in icc and agree'd to friend eachother for future invites to pug. everyone got some gear nothing waisted and some people got achievements that they were missing out on

the atmosphere generated by 1 rotton egg in this game can make a lot of people quit. i know 3 people who have now changed faction on outland. ( alliance scum )

at liest there is a select few that i always raid / pug with knowing that each of us can have a laugh at eachother and dont worry about repair bills. after all if you cant afford to wipe you reely shouldnt be raiding

tman

Rei-chan wrote: »

The other day in BG I got called a "trade spamming hoe" and some other unpleasant names...And just because I chat! Silly people...

Sounds fair enough tbh... The trade chan is for trade last time I checked, not random chat:p

Shougeki

Trade in sunstrider seems to be for everything...

Noxin

Got my first kick yesterday.

Doing a normal FoS, cleared. Normal PoS again cleared. Then got kicked going into the last part.

Only hit lvl 80 about 2 hours earlier so my gear and as such DPS was rubbish. 1.3kdps not enough but srsly, it was on normal. We had not wiped or anything.

I've skipped random heroics for now until I get some better gear. Good thing the guild is there to carry my sorry ass through for some

ravydavygravy

Noxin wrote: »

Got my first kick yesterday.

Doing a normal FoS, cleared. Normal PoS again cleared. Then got kicked going into the last part.

Only hit lvl 80 about 2 hours earlier so my gear and as such DPS was rubbish. 1.3kdps not enough but srsly, it was on normal. We had not wiped or anything.

I've skipped random heroics for now until I get some better gear. Good thing the guild is there to carry my sorry ass through for some

I thought the idea of random heroics were to get better gear once you hit 80? I'm only a few levels away now, but that was my plan - am I totally wrong?

Dave

TheDoc

ravydavygravy wrote: »

I thought the idea of random heroics were to get better gear once you hit 80? I'm only a few levels away now, but that was my plan - am I totally wrong?

Dave

Yes

Random heroics are not for you to get carried through.

Before you enter ANY heroics when you hit 80, take the small time it takes to ensure you are ATLEAST hitcapped.

When you walk into your first random heroic at 80 after acquiring your hit cap, you will atleast be useful in some shape or form.

Dont just stroll in expecting the rest of the group to carry you, or you will just get kicked.

StinkyMunkey

TheDoc wrote: »

Yes

Random heroics are not for you to get carried through.

Before you enter ANY heroics when you hit 80, take the small time it takes to ensure you are ATLEAST hitcapped.

When you walk into your first random heroic at 80 after acquiring your hit cap, you will atleast be useful in some shape or form.

Dont just stroll in expecting the rest of the group to carry you, or you will just get kicked.

I did 3 random hc's last week with a healer that just dinged 80 that hour, he had all greens and blues. First 2 went ok, only a couple dps got spanked. But the third wasnt happening. I couldnt care less what type of gear of dps someone is doing tbh, as long as they can do the job. Anyone who has any understanding of their class and does as much dps as their gear allows, is more than welcome in any hc i tank.

Where as people whinging and moaning about GS and DPS can go take a running jump, i play WoW for light enjoyment, not to judge people on how good or bad they are at playing it. Im always polite and dont feel the need to bash someone who is at a point where i was once. People who start crying like a b1tch will get kicked from my group, or failing that, ill just bail.

Thats my opinion anyway, not everyone is gonna like it. But im indifferent whether they do or not. Manners dont cost anything, and grouping with people who have them, makes the game more enjoyable for me anyway.

*thats not a dig at you Doc, just my take on the WoW experience.

Overheal

Well 2 huntards from another realm, same guild, in my Nexus Random...

So we had an undergeared Healer, we were all overgeared. So no bother from me the Tank. When tried Chaos Theory for the Healer but the Huntards ignored us. And we had been trying to talk to them all run - they had their chat off, or they didnt care. Tried to whisper them too: nothing.

By the time we got to the rock boss we were talking **** about them and everything and I realized - hey, these guys are dicks. One of them rolled on a Wand ffs. Why do I need to carry them?

I waited until we were a stones throw from the last boss, and I kicked one of them

The other one raised holy hell and ragequit.

][cEMAN**

Yeah you're right doc. When you first ding 80 please take the time to gear yourself in preperation for 5man dungeons, where you're meant to get the gear/emblems to get the hit gear etc (rather than just being rediculous and gemming every socket in AH bought gear with +hit), and make sure you do your part in the group...

Or remember it's a ****ing game, and 5 mans are not raids. GS and performance should never matter. People standing doing white dmg swings is a problem - people just dinged 80, should never be looked down on. You were there once.

Catch yerself on like.

TheDoc

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

*thats not a dig at you Doc, just my take on the WoW experience.

Dont worry didnt take any offence

I just dont think its very fair to ding 80 and expect 4 people to carry you. You wouldnt just join an fps game and sit in a corner and hope your team wins so you can rank up, the same applies to wow.

You play a game, to play the game. WoW isnt a game you can jump on for 30 minutes light enjoyment. Theres requirements you have to achieve first, before you can have your enjoyment.

All though you might have fun being a tank walking into your heroic at 80 fresh, its not fun for me healing since you take so much damage.

As a dps, it may be fun for you to push out 600-900dps cause your not hit capped, but its not fun for me having to swet every encounter knowing ive to make up the dps of two players.

Its a small ask, might take you a day or two, but youll be more respected for it, and youll be a better player because of it.

You shouldnt expect to walk into instances and have people do the work for you and hand you loot, you need to work hard, play your best, and the rewards will be your loot.

Learned that lesson very early on and I'm all the better player because of it

TheDoc

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;65377279']Yeah you're right doc. When you first ding 80 please take the time to gear yourself in preperation for 5man dungeons, where you're meant to get the gear/emblems to get the hit gear etc (rather than just being rediculous and gemming every socket in AH bought gear with +hit), and make sure you do your part in the group...

Or remember it's a ****ing game, and 5 mans are not raids. GS and performance should never matter. People standing doing white dmg swings is a problem - people just dinged 80, should never be looked down on. You were there once.

Catch yerself on like.

I dont look down on fresh 80's, however I do get annoyed when people stroll into an instance without their heroic hit cap and expect people to pick up their slack.

Attitudes like that are EXACTLY what is wrong with this game.

5mans are a stepping stone to higher enjoyment and participation. The only requirement for a fresh 80, is get hit capped, its not ****ing hard. A couple of runs through normal dungeons to grab specific gear.

Atlas loot tells you what the gear is.
Wow heroes tells you what you hit cap is.
Random dungeon finder lets you stand there and get the dungeon you need.

If you cant do that then you should stop playing your 80 character and go level another one.

5man dungeons require one thing, a simple hit cap achieved from normal level dungeons.

Learning this lesson early, and putting the time in now, puts you in training for the stuff youll have to do later, if you propgress onto raiding.

Acquiring a higher hit cap, reaching caps like crit and haste, and generally using atlasloot like its the bible. Putting a plan in place, knowing what dungeons you need to do and what bosses to get gear that will make your character perform better.

I'm sorry "ice"man but you post alot here, and I took you for an experience player and your comments on some threads made me believe you were a raiding player.

But if thats your outlook then your my impression of you couldnt be further from wrong.

Whats worse is that those sort of comments are the WORST advice for a new player, and will pretty quickly put them into the category of modern day wow player that is

"**** you, I just want my quick free epics, do the work for me plz"

Slack,scrub, casual, the works.

And if you had any idea, you would see the normal dungeons provide hit gear, specifically so people can acquire it before heroics...

TheDoc

Dave I dont know what character you play.

But if you download atlas loot, you will be able to see all items available ingame.

The hit cap for heroic dungeons at 80 is I believe 6%. You should be pretty close already when you ding 80, but if not, then just run a few normals to acquire the gear, thats if you want to be a better player, and put some good practices in early.

Remember most classes have talents that provide 2-3% hit, so in essence you really only need a small amount.

A simple google search for your class and your pre heroic hit gear list should set you straight.

And as ridic as it sounds, it wouldnt hurt to get a few hit gems. The sub 20 hit rating gems are pretty cheap, and if you have just dinged you will have some slots of gear with gem slots, wouldnt hurt.

If you have friends or guilds best bet is to get them to carry you through a few raids so you can get hit gear.

Remember if your not hit capped, your going to miss your attacks on boss, and your attacks will NEVER do optimal damage.

Hit cap is something you are going to monitor and make sure you have capped throughout your end game experience, so why skimp now.

Ivan

I was about the 12th 80 in my guild, about 2-3 days after the first 80 on our server. Nothing particularly spectacular or anything, but I never entered an 80 normal dungeon until after I had completed them all in heroic versions. It's not like it's hard.

Being under hit capped is retarded in a raid, in a 5 man heroic that you can 2 man in heroic gear... I really don't see the problem. If it's a guild group then everyone knows what they are getting into and no one cares. If it's a pug group then you get what you pay for and you can quite easily leave.

Gear score is ultimately pointless, I've outdps'd significantly better geared people in all walks of the game, purely because if you are dead your dps is zero.

As for 4 people carrying you through content, isn't that what pugs are for?

Robby91

Before you enter ANY heroics when you hit 80, take the small time it takes to ensure you are ATLEAST hitcapped.

While getting to the hit cap is obviously important, IMO it's far more important to spend that time (or, even, a small portion of it) reading up on how to perform well in your role (i.e. rotations, what stats your class requires, etc). Reaching Hit and Expertise caps won't cause a miraculous turn-around for someone doing 500DPS to a targets face, right?

My DK reached level 80 over the weekend and I did my first Heroic last night (gear requirement locked me out until I got that 226 belt, and not a blacksmith in sight :P) and considering that a lack of Expertise Rating has almost as much of an effect as a lack of Hit Rating, I will still capable of pulling a respectable level of DPS for a first Heroic run and I attribute that mainly to having read up on the rotations/priorities required.

The only requirement for a fresh 80, is get hit capped, its not ****ing hard

For melee characters, Expertise is almost equally important (depending on specific class, of course) as Hit, although much scarcer in 3.0 dungeons from what I remember

your attacks will NEVER do optimal damage.

I don't think a lack (or otherwise) of Hit Rating will actually affect the amount of damage a single attack does (unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, and you mean "all your attacks combined" rather than "your individual attacks" )

generally using atlasloot like its the bible

Assuming you can live with Alt-Tabbing, Wowhead would be more useful because of filtered searches and profiles for seeing if you remain at your appropriate caps - having 232+ DPS gear with very little Hit and Expertise is still gonna pull your potential down quite a bit. I did that (using only AtlasLoot) for my Shaman (at level 72) to get my entry-level raiding gear back in 3.1, and ended up with sod-all Hit Rating when I counted it all up :P

Anti

I can see why people get annoyed at undergeared people in blues and greens doing heroics. But everyone has to start somewhere. For example, doing the daily heroic last night on my hpriest. All of the group bar me were in blues. The tank even had 2 of the hierloom trinkets and some greens. He had 21hp fully buffed with kings and fort (my priest had 25k) Sure, the group was slow at getting through HoS. And the tank needed constant spamming to keep him alive but it was fun. The tank even had the consideration to apologize for his gear and said he would happily leave if people wanted him too. Ofcourse the 3 dps were mad to get rid of him, but i kept declining the vote. An extra 10 mins in a heroic is nothing to me at the end of the day.

][cEMAN**

TheDoc wrote: »

I dont look down on fresh 80's, however I do get annoyed when people stroll into an instance without their heroic hit cap and expect people to pick up their slack.

Attitudes like that are EXACTLY what is wrong with this game.

I agree. Attitudes like this are EXACTLY what is wrong with this game. You have people thinking "why am I carrying you - look at my dps it's obviously so much higher than yours". When the rest of us who have been playing WotLK from the start first hit lvl 80, a good lot of us just did 600-800 dps. It's not great, but that's life. If it's your first lvl 80, it's expected. The characters change from 1-80 and some spells that would have been more used at lower levels, are no longer at lvl 80. Same at lvl 60 in vanilla, same at lvl 70 in TBC, it is at lvl 80 in WotLK - in a lot of ways you only really learn your character at 80....all of it.

So just because you've been around a while and you're doing amazing dps, you're ****ting all over the people who've just gotten there.

TheDoc wrote: »

5mans are a stepping stone to higher enjoyment and participation.

Not for everyone. For some they do only play the game an hour or two a day. They got to 80, they earned the right to play it whatever way they want. They don't have to step up and raid ****ing hc ICC as end content if they are just as happy finding a 5 man group and trying to have a little fun.

TheDoc wrote: »

The only requirement for a fresh 80, is get hit capped, its not ****ing hard. A couple of runs through normal dungeons to grab specific gear.

The only requirement people should have, is a little knowledge of their class. You can still do a fair amount of dps without being hit capped. You just miss sometimes. You do realise that hit cap isn't necessary just to hit at all? Because stats whores have gotten so far up their own asses I sometimes wonder if they realise what the stats actually mean. If you're missing 20% of the time, and your dps would be 2k max anyway, you're only down 400dps. If that's so massive a difference in a 5 man....in a 5 man...then the rest of the group are just as much to blame. Blizzard brought out the totc5 mans and the ICC 5 mans. They're a step up each time, and they show who can and can't hack it. Everything before that can easily be done no matter what gear you have. For that reason, blizzard stop people who are undergeared getting in to them.

TheDoc wrote: »

Atlas loot tells you what the gear is.
Wow heroes tells you what you hit cap is.
Random dungeon finder lets you stand there and get the dungeon you need.

Atlas loot is an add on. Not everyone wants to use it. Also getting to lvl 80, random dungeons are the handiest way to get there now. If the items haven't dropped in however many dungeons they've done up to that point, why should they be denied heroics that blizzard say they're geared enough for, just because your personal opinions is that they're not good enough for you. Because the way they play the game doesn't meet your standards of elitism. Any time I mention stats, what's expected etc, it's about raiding. This is 5 mans ffs.

Wowheroes is a website. Nothing to do with blizzard. Again it's information passed from player to player, but not everyone wants to have to go read anything outside of the wow forums.

And random dungeon finder is random. It doesn't put you in the dungeon youw want. It's random. The clue's kinda in the name.

TheDoc wrote: »

If you cant do that then you should stop playing your 80 character and go level another one.

Brilliant idea. Not good enough off the bat with your first lvl 80, populate the server with multiple characters that don't meet your standards.

TheDoc wrote: »

5man dungeons require one thing, a simple hit cap achieved from normal level dungeons.

No, they don't. They require not ninja pulling, and not getting yourself killed stupidly. 0hp=0dps. So many never learn this lesson.

TheDoc wrote: »

Learning this lesson early, and putting the time in now, puts you in training for the stuff youll have to do later, if you propgress onto raiding.

You don't HAVE to do anything later. People play the game as much as they want to. For some, lvl 80, repetitive quests, and 5 mans, is all they want.

TheDoc wrote: »

Acquiring a higher hit cap, reaching caps like crit and haste, and generally using atlasloot like its the bible. Putting a plan in place, knowing what dungeons you need to do and what bosses to get gear that will make your character perform better.

wow...sounds like wow suddenly became a job

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm sorry "ice"man but you post alot here, and I took you for an experience player and your comments on some threads made me believe you were a raiding player.

But if thats your outlook then your my impression of you couldnt be further from wrong.

That's your opinion. My opinion is that you're getting a bit far up your own ass here. You still have a chance to pull it out before the smell sticks.

TheDoc wrote: »

Whats worse is that those sort of comments are the WORST advice for a new player, and will pretty quickly put them into the category of modern day wow player that is

"**** you, I just want my quick free epics, do the work for me plz"

Slack,scrub, casual, the works.

Casual is a problem for you? Maybe you should pay these people to play the game the way you want it played, because I don't know if you've forgotten, but they pay their sub to play the game how they want to. Meeting certain expectations comes when you step into a raid. 5mans and raids are completely different things. Learn that.

TheDoc wrote: »

And if you had any idea, you would see the normal dungeons provide hit gear, specifically so people can acquire it before heroics...

I know they do. My point is that you don't always get all the gear you want. I wanted the red sword of courage when I first dinged 80, but it took me over a month to get it. Putting on socket gear just to fill up with +hit gems, and losing other stats would be equally as stupid. People say 'hit cap first'. It's important yes, but all stats contribute to dps. If you drop 50% of your AP for example, to gain 20% hit, it's not going to do you a lot of help. AP is constant, hit is chance.

I just get annoyed in this game when people who raid, force their end game raiding attitudes onto people who just want to do things beside raiding. In a group who all just dinged 80, they may take an hour to get through a 5 man - but they might have a great time doing it. It's all about attitude, and character. GET SOME GET SOME GET SOME FASTER FASTER FASTER MOAR DEE PEE ESSS is the wrong attitude for a lot of people.

Anti

Sorry... but..