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Who is in the right here

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2

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    #32
    hellboy99
    Registered Users Posts: 6,219 ✭✭✭hellboy99


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Both were at fault, but the green car to a much lesser degree imho.

    The black car went to overtake approaching a sideroad, and didn't get back in/stopped when the green car indicated right.

    The green car didn't use his mirror.

    Maybe 90%/10%?
    I'd have to agree, both are in the wrong.


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    #33
    The Nutty M
    Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭The Nutty M


    orla wrote: »
    I don't think the green car is in the wrong here.

    It's probably bad practise on my behalf but if I was coming off a main road and turning right I would be looking ahead of me to see if any cars where coming towards me, not checking my mirrors to see if something was driving on the wrong side of the road.

    :)It's definitly bad practice my dear woman.You cant see what is happening behind you unless you look.Expect the unexpected,I didnt one time and ended up with a broken back,lesson learned.
    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Both were at fault, but the green car to a much lesser degree imho.

    The black car went to overtake approaching a sideroad, and didn't get back in/stopped when the green car indicated right.

    The green car didn't use his mirror.

    Maybe 90%/10%?

    I agree.Maybe even 75/25


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    #34
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    If it was a hatched section, the black car should definitely not be overtaking there end of story.

    If it was a broken white line, and all other things being suitable for overtaking (nothing coming the other way, clear view etc.), and the black car is in the process over making the overtaking before the green car starts indicating, then the green car is at fault imo. I'm assuming the black car was just overtaking this one car of course.


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    #35
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    just to reiterate a few points...........

    The black car was overtaking and did not see the green car slowing down untill he was in the other lane overtaking the car directly in front of him.

    the grren car slowed down, idicated right and manouvered closer to middle of rd before crossing without stopping into path of oncoming black car.

    the black car was not speeding and the opposite side of road was clear otherwise the black car would not have started to overtake

    driver of black car did not see sign for junction and when asked by gardai did he see the signs saying no overtaking had to remind gardai that there was no such sign on the rd and proved so when the gardai gave him a ligt back to town!!!

    Im thinking surely the green car should have seen the black car in his wing mirrow and refrained from crossing the rd untill either the black car could pull back in or had finished overtaking.Please note that black car could not have pulled back in as he seen the green car which had came to a crawl before turning and it would have been in his way to get back in lane

    frAg


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    #36
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    the line was broken(ok to overtake as clear view, nothing oncoming on other side of road) black car was overtaking the car directly infont of him and the green car was futrher up the rd and was not visible untill the black car was already on the other side of the rd

    PauloMN wrote: »
    If it was a hatched section, the black car should definitely not be overtaking there end of story.

    If it was a broken white line, and all other things being suitable for overtaking (nothing coming the other way, clear view etc.), and the black car is in the process over making the overtaking before the green car starts indicating, then the green car is at fault imo. I'm assuming the black car was just overtaking this one car of course.


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    #37
    Cionád
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Cionád


    frag420 wrote: »
    Please note that black car could not have pulled back in as he seen the green car which had came to a crawl before turning and it would have been in his way to get back in lane

    If the black car had slowed surely he could have slipped in behind the turning car rather than trying to get around it before it turned? Black car could have even stopped - as the coast was clear...


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    #38
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Couple of things here,am i reading this correctly, the black car had already overtaken another uncoloured car?? If so what was it doing on the wrong side of the road?? Was this overtaking maneourvre to overtake several cars at once (always a dangerous practice unless the road is very straight and with excellent vision)

    Secondly if the road was hatched the black car should certianly not be overtaking

    Thirdly was there a sign on the main road to indicate a junction/turning?? because if there was then it is bad driving to be overtaking in such circumstances

    So considering that the black car hit another car, from behind, whilst on the wrong side of the road, which was hatched, I fail to see how this is anything other than black car completly wrong


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    #39
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    frag420 wrote: »
    just to reiterate a few points...........

    The black car was overtaking and did not see the green car slowing down untill he was in the other lane overtaking the car directly in front of him.

    the grren car slowed down, idicated right and manouvered closer to middle of rd before crossing without stopping into path of oncoming black car.

    the black car was not speeding and the opposite side of road was clear otherwise the black car would not have started to overtake

    driver of black car did not see sign for junction and when asked by gardai did he see the signs saying no overtaking had to remind gardai that there was no such sign on the rd and proved so when the gardai gave him a ligt back to town!!!

    Im thinking surely the green car should have seen the black car in his wing mirrow and refrained from crossing the rd untill either the black car could pull back in or had finished overtaking.Please note that black car could not have pulled back in as he seen the green car which had came to a crawl before turning and it would have been in his way to get back in lane

    frAg

    and there is your problem in bold, you should never ever overtake when there is a sign for a junction, particularly if you plan on overtaking a line of cars.

    Did the Gardai say who was in the wrong?


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    #40
    The Nutty M
    Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭The Nutty M


    I still think the black car is in the wrong,if the indicator was seen,due caution should have been given to the possibility/probability that it was going to turn.Also it sounds like a multiple vehicle overtake,the overtaking car does not have right of way in any case.

    I know it's a bad way to be but if I was in any of the cars around that accident I'd have wished the accident on the black car for his lack of driving skills.


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    #41
    cormie
    Registered Users Posts: 20,792 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    So far we have clarified:

    There was no "no overtaking" sign.
    The line on the road was hatched/broken/overtakeable
    There may have been no junction sign.
    The black car was overtaking more than one car (perfectly legal)

    These will act in favour of the black car but I still don't know what way an insurance company would see it.

    Cionad, I don't think it would be safe to slip in behind the green car to the left. More than likely if they indicated late, the other car behind (which the black car was overtaking) was probably close enough to them.


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    #42
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    frag420 wrote: »
    driver of black car did not see sign for junction

    Ah - the Homer Simpson defence - If I don't see it then it's not illegal.

    If there was a sign for a junction then you...sorry, I mean the driver of the black car was driving without due care and attention.


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    #43
    cormie
    Registered Users Posts: 20,792 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    The Nutty M wrote: »
    I still think the black car is in the wrong,if the indicator was seen,due caution should have been given to the possibility/probability that it was going to turn.Also it sounds like a multiple vehicle overtake,the overtaking car does not have right of way in any case.

    I know it's a bad way to be but if I was in any of the cars around that accident I'd have wished the accident on the black car for his lack of driving skills.

    As far as I'm aware any vehicle completing a turn etc has right of way to finish the manoeuvre.

    TIPP MAN; We haven't clarified whether there was indeed a sign or not. He didn't see it may mean there wasn't one to be seen, or it may mean there was one, but he didn't see it before doing the manoeuvre. If there was one, this certainly wont help his case.


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    #44
    TheColl
    Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭TheColl


    cormie wrote: »
    As far as I'm aware any vehicle completing a turn etc has right of way to finish the manoeuvre.

    TIPP MAN; We haven't clarified whether there was indeed a sign or not. He didn't see it may mean there wasn't one to be seen, or it may mean there was one, but he didn't see it before doing the manoeuvre. If there was one, this certainly wont help his case.

    Yes, I reckon a lot depends on this.

    OP, was there a junction sign? If so, then it was an extremely dangerous overtaking move. And surely the green car had to slow down before indicating and turning, giving the black car enough time to slow down himself as the road ahead was clear?


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    #45
    wyrn
    Registered Users Posts: 6,977 ✭✭✭wyrn


    OP how many cars did the the black car overtake?
    Also what sort of distance was between when the black car moved out and the the green car?

    Say for sake of argument the black car moved out to overtake car "red" which is behind the green car, was there room for the black car to move back in?


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    #46
    Top Dog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭Top Dog


    frag420 wrote: »
    The black car was overtaking and did not see the green car slowing down untill he was in the other lane overtaking the car directly in front of him.
    The instant the black car did see the green car and what it was doing, it should have abandoned its overtaking manouvre and waited for another opportunity.
    frag420 wrote: »
    Im thinking surely the green car should have seen the black car in his wing mirrow and refrained from crossing the rd untill either the black car could pull back in or had finished overtaking.Please note that black car could not have pulled back in as he seen the green car which had came to a crawl before turning and it would have been in his way to get back in lane
    So what are you suggesting? That the green car should have come to a complete halt and waited patiently for the black car to fly past (even if travelling at legal speed you're gonna fly past a stationary car) before performing its turn?


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    #47
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    the black car was overtaking the car directly in front of him. was not aware of any other vehicles in front of that car as he was boxed in. the car in front was going dog slow and the large alcohol(oh the irony) delivery truck that was about a meter from black cars bumper(i kid you not) was right on black cars ass so black car felt it safer to overtake car on front.

    Black car did not see a junction sign. there may have been one but die to the fact he was boxed in tightly he may have not noticed it.

    Would have mentioned being boxed in earlier but did not think it mattered much but maybe it does as it may have affected driver of black cars ability to concentrate on road signs??

    so to clarify the driver did not see any junction sign

    fraG


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    #48
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    wyrn wrote: »
    OP how many cars did the the black car overtake?
    Also what sort of distance was between when the black car moved out and the the green car?

    Say for sake of argument the black car moved out to overtake car "red" which is behind the green car, was there room for the black car to move back in?

    no room for the black car to move back in hence the crash!!


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    #49
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    Top Dog wrote: »
    The instant the black car did see the green car and what it was doing, it should have abandoned its overtaking manouvre and waited for another opportunity.


    So what are you suggesting? That the green car should have come to a complete halt and waited patiently for the black car to fly past (even if travelling at legal speed you're gonna fly past a stationary car) before performing its turn?

    now correct me if i am wrong but is it not mandetory to come to a complete stop before attemping a moanouvre such as turning of a main rd onto a side rd?? and before making manouvre to check mirrors to make sure it is safe to do so??

    Also the black car would have abandoned its manouvre but it was already committed to the manouvre( increased speed on other side of road) and there was no room to move back in otherwise the black car wold have done so.


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    #50
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    frag420 wrote: »
    the black car was overtaking the car directly in front of him. was not aware of any other vehicles in front of that car as he was boxed in.

    Sounds like black car did not have a clear view of the road and should not have overtaken
    Black car did not see a junction sign. there may have been one but die to the fact he was boxed in tightly he may have not noticed it.

    Black car was boxed in too tightly to see a junction sign but not too tightly to notice the lack of "no overtaking" signs? Right.


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    #51
    Top Dog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭Top Dog


    frag420 wrote: »
    now correct me if i am wrong but is it not mandetory to come to a complete stop before attemping a moanouvre such as turning of a main rd onto a side rd?? and before making manouvre to check mirrors to make sure it is safe to do so??

    Also the black car would have abandoned its manouvre but it was already committed to the manouvre( increased speed on other side of road) and there was no room to move back in otherwise the black car wold have done so.
    I don't think it is mandatory to come to a complete stop - but I'm no legal expert so can't say for sure.
    frag420 wrote: »
    the black car was overtaking the car directly in front of him. was not aware of any other vehicles in front of that car as he was boxed in. the car in front was going dog slow and the large alcohol(oh the irony) delivery truck that was about a meter from black cars bumper(i kid you not) was right on black cars ass so black car felt it safer to overtake car on front.

    Black car did not see a junction sign. there may have been one but die to the fact he was boxed in tightly he may have not noticed it.

    Would have mentioned being boxed in earlier but did not think it mattered much but maybe it does as it may have affected driver of black cars ability to concentrate on road signs??
    Beginning to sound like the driver of the black car was in an uncomfortable situation and possibly feeling nervous/anxious/intimidated/stressed by the truck behind being on its ass and tried to get out of that situation. Unfortunately due to the stress though they may not have properly assessed the road ahead.

    Sometimes its just easier to pull over to the hard shoulder for 2 mins and let the bumper-riders get on with their thing and take yourself out of the equation.


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    #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 50,630 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    frag420 wrote: »
    Black car did not see a junction sign. there may have been one but die to the fact he was boxed in tightly he may have not noticed it.

    Failure to see the sign does not excuse it
    Would have mentioned being boxed in earlier but did not think it mattered much but maybe it does as it may have affected driver of black cars ability to concentrate on road signs??

    It matters alot. If the black car was too close to the car in front to read the road then the black car is 100% in the wrong.

    Overtaking at a junction is against the rules of the road. And for good reason.

    Edit: If there was actually no sign then I would be looking to sue the local council for damages to the car


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    #53
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    stimpson wrote: »
    Sounds like black car did not have a clear view of the road and should not have overtaken



    Black car was boxed in too tightly to see a junction sign but not too tightly to notice the lack of "no overtaking" signs? Right.


    black felt uncomfortable being boxed in so tightly hence wanting to overtake. And because he was boxed in he did not have a clear view of the lane in front of him but had a clear view of the oppostie lane and it was clear.

    black car told the gardai that he did not notice any 'no overtaking signs' and (and did not remind gardai that there was no sign on the rd as previoulsy stated) not that there was 'no overtaking signs' which was confirmed on way back into nearest town. sorry for the confusion on that point

    frAg


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    #54
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Failure to see the sign does not excuse it



    It matters alot. If the black car was too close to the car in front to read the road then the black car is 100% in the wrong.

    Overtaking at a junction is against the rules of the road. And for good reason.

    but if the car in front is going too slow for the road and while the black is behind it it was not tailgating it all the while being tailgated by the large truck anf having enough of a view to see the opposite lane was clear they were in the right to attempt to overtake??

    frAg


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    #55
    cormie
    Registered Users Posts: 20,792 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    betafrog wrote: »
    You've clearly never driven in the country side

    Of course I have. Not sure what your point is? :)
    frag420 wrote: »
    the black car was overtaking the car directly in front of him. was not aware of any other vehicles in front of that car as he was boxed in. the car in front was going dog slow and the large alcohol(oh the irony) delivery truck that was about a meter from black cars bumper(i kid you not) was right on black cars ass so black car felt it safer to overtake car on front.

    Black car did not see a junction sign. there may have been one but die to the fact he was boxed in tightly he may have not noticed it.

    Would have mentioned being boxed in earlier but did not think it mattered much but maybe it does as it may have affected driver of black cars ability to concentrate on road signs??

    so to clarify the driver did not see any junction sign

    fraG

    Mentioning you were boxed in doesn't help your case. If you don't have a clear view of the road ahead, you should keep a larger gap between you and the front car. This will improve your overtaking ability aswell as if you are approaching a point to overtake you have time to build up that little bit of extra speed that you could do otherwise.


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    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 50,630 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    frag420 wrote: »
    but if the car in front is going too slow for the road and while the black is behind it it was not tailgating it all the while being tailgated by the large truck anf having enough of a view to see the opposite lane was clear they were in the right to attempt to overtake??

    frAg

    If you were a safe distance from the car in front you would have been able to read the road ahead. Saying that you were "boxed in" suggests you weren't.

    You are fully in the right to overtake as long as there is a broken white line, and it is safe to do so. It is unsafe to overtake a vehicle when approaching a juntion.


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    #57
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    frag420 wrote: »
    black felt uncomfortable being boxed in so tightly hence wanting to overtake. And because he was boxed in he did not have a clear view of the lane in front of him but had a clear view of the oppostie lane and it was clear.

    If he/she did not have a clear view of the whole road he/she should not have overtaken because it was not safe to do so.

    You'll find it's not an offence to be "driving too slow for the road". The speed limit is a limit - not a target.


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    #58
    cormie
    Registered Users Posts: 20,792 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    stimpson wrote: »
    If he/she did not have a clear view of the whole road he/she should not have overtaken because it was not safe to do so.

    You'll find it's not an offence to be "driving too slow for the road". The speed limit is a limit - not a target.

    I think it is on a motorway however :)

    The issue of the driver feeling boxed in and not seeing ahead of him may only be an issue if the green car gave enough indication and if there was indeed a sign that he missed due to being too close to the car in front or not paying attention. If it was safe to overtake (even though he may not have seen it himself, it still could have been) and the green car driver indicated too late then he would have been fully in his rights to overtake and the negligence of the green driver put them both in the dangerous position.


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    #59
    ianobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭ianobrien


    The black car is 100% right. The green car changed lanes without looking, despite the black car travelling the wrong direction in the lane. The black car had possession of the right hand lane at the time of the accident.

    The exact situation happened to a member of my family a good few years ago, and the samily member was driving the black car. She won her case 100%. The exact case number I don't have to hand.

    Indication does not give you the right of way. When crossing any white line, look both ways.


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    #60
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    cormie wrote: »
    I think it is on a motorway however :)

    The issue of the driver feeling boxed in and not seeing ahead of him may only be an issue if the green car gave enough indication and if there was indeed a sign that he missed due to being too close to the car in front or not paying attention. If it was safe to overtake (even though he may not have seen it himself, it still could have been) and the green car driver indicated too late then he would have been fully in his rights to overtake and the negligence of the green driver put them both in the dangerous position.

    That's like saying it's safe to overtake on a blind bend if nothing is coming.

    The simple fact that he could not see the road ahead means it was not safe for him to overtake.


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    #61
    cpoh1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭cpoh1


    In the rules of the road it says you must not overtake approaching a junction, however it is not mentioned in the Road traffic acts and more importantly there are broken white lines indicating it is ok to overtake provided it is safe to do so. The overtaking approaching a junction is a nothing issue really considering the other offenses of both drivers.

    My opinion is that its a 50/50 blame and the insurance companies will see it the same way. The black car over took approaching the junction while the green car failed to give way to the car on its RHS and failed to notice the overtaking vehicle.

    My opinion, if anything the green driver was more careless. He/she was in a position of strength and fully in control of her actions. She failed to notice an overtaking car and didnt act accordingly to prevent the accident. The black car couldnt see the green cars indicator until the overtaking manouvre was carried out and had little option to avoid the collision. Whatever about the (small) mistake leading up to the accident the main mistake was the green drivers poor awareness. Lets face it we all overtake approaching junctions provided the road against us is clear and broken white lines are present.


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