Who is in the right here

frag420

Somewhat of a hypothetical here.............

If someone is driving along a major road, say n17. Now there are no 'do not overtake' signs and there are hatched lines on the road.If person(say in a black car for id) were to indicate and pull out onto other side of road to overtake and further up the rd someone travelling in the same direction(in green car) slows down indicates and turns right across the rd onto a side rd. Who is in the wrong if the person who was overtaking(black car) hits the person who was crossing the rd(green car) to leave the major rd.

Would the person who was crossing the rd to leave it(green car) not have had to look in rear view to make sure there was nobody behind him before attempting his manouvre across the rd taking into account the person overtaking in the black car had already pulled out to overtake when the green car decided to slow down, indicate and manouvre across rd.

can anyone shed any light on this for me.


frAg

Berty

Whoah, what a horrible situation to be in.

Only thing I can find for you is the ROTR

Make sure the road ahead is clear so you have enough distance to allow you to overtake and get back to your own side of the road without forcing any other road user to move to avoid you.

Could you argue by that statement that the person should not have to make ammendments to their driving just because you are overtaking.

However, you could argue that they should have checked their mirrors and blind spot before turning.

I would be of the opinion the overtaking car is in the wrong as they are travelling in the incorrect driving lane.

EPM

I'd be of the opinion the black car is at fault for not reading the road ahead and hitting the green. It wasn't safe to overtake and the sign said so...

vbunse

The person in the black car unfortunatley is completely in the wrong, if you are to hit another car from the rear, 99.9% of the time you are in the wrong, the black car must always be in a position to stop saflely,

Incidently i live near that road and this example has often arrose particularly in the summer months with tractors crossing the road,

expect the unexpected and all that.......

Winty

Black Car 100% in the wrong, the green car cant not be at fault for the action of another behind them

Fey!

If there was a cross hatching then, from my understanding of the rules of the road, the black car shouldn't have been traveling on them.

thebiglad

Presuming this would give rise to an insurance claim (civil liability) It would be 2/3 responsibility v the overtaking car with 1/3 resting with the turning car.

If there was a criminal prosecution then likely only the driver of overtaking car would be prosecuted although arguably there was a lack of due care and attention by the turning vehicle.

frag420

BERTY: The road was clear when the black car manouvered out to overtake. It was while the black car was in the other lane which was clear that the green car further up slowed down, indicated and crossed the opposite lane to get of the road.

EPM: As mentioned there was hatched lines on the road and there was NO 'do not overtake signs on the road'

Vbunse: While the black car did hit him from the rear the black car was able to manouvre his car somewhat that it hit the front driver wheel arch as the green car was crossing opposite lane at time of collision. If the black car was not able to slow down and manouvre his car somewhat it is thought that driver of green car wold have been hit directly on drivers door. Does not bear thinking about!!

Winty: Surely before the green car manouvres across the opposite lane the driver should check what is behind him. Sureky that is one of the purposses of the mirrors just like the person in the black car had to check his mirror to make sure nobody was trying to overtake him either??

Fey: no crossing hatch line. Just regular hatched lines in middle.


Thanks for replies. keep em coming please!!


frAg

ozt9vdujny3srf

EPM wrote: »

I'd be of the opinion the black car is at fault for not reading the road ahead and hitting the green. It wasn't safe to overtake and the sign said so...

OP said there was no "Do Not Overtake" signs and there were hatched lines on the middle of the road.

mickdw

The hatch lines are there for a reason. They are to be treated the same as an island & should not be crossed or driven on. In theory then there should NEVER be a car coming up to overtake on the opposite side of the road.

jameshayes

I'd say the person in the green car is in the wrong, you should never change lane position without checking your mirrors, it could have been the case that a motorcyclist was overtaking you within the white line and the green car could have killed him rather than denting the black car. Check yer mirrors greeny

Cionád

jameshayes wrote: »

I'd say the person in the green car is in the wrong, you should never change lane position without checking your mirrors, it could have been the case that a motorcyclist was overtaking you within the white line and the green car could have killed him rather than denting the black car. Check yer mirrors greeny

They are both in the wrong, the black car moreso IMO. The overtaking car would know from the start of the maneouvre he was taking a risk. Greeny is being ignorant, but the black knows (or should know) he shouldn't be in the hatchings. Check your road markings blacky.

jameshayes

Cionád wrote: »

They are both in the wrong, the black car moreso IMO. The overtaking car would know from the start of the maneouvre he was taking a risk. Greeny is being ignorant, but the black knows (or should know) he shouldn't be in the hatchings. Check your road markings blacky.

What if the black car was an emergency vehicle?

EPM

Xavier Prickly Trainee wrote: »

OP said there was no "Do Not Overtake" signs and there were hatched lines on the middle of the road.

Ah, read over it too quick. Still I would put the majority of the blame on the black car. A lot would depend on the notice given by the green. If it was the usual indicate while turning as opposed to giving notice by indicating it would have a bearing. But the green car should be checking behind also while slowing and indicating.

There's a few different factors involved.

Cionád

jameshayes wrote: »

What if the black car was an emergency vehicle?

I'd expect it to have its sirens blaring, and be driven by a qualified driver to see the indicating car in advance.

PauloMN

frag420 wrote: »

As mentioned there was hatched lines on the road

I think we're getting lost in semantics here. What exactly do you mean by "hatched lines"? Do you mean simple broken white lines i.e. overtaking allowed?

jameshayes

Cionád wrote: »

I'd expect it to have its sirens blaring, and be driven by a qualified driver to see the indicating car in advance.

I think you may be taking too much for granted, we don’t know at what point the green car indicated, it could have been whilst the black car was parallel, and regardless, indicators do nothing other than confirm that the blub is working, they should never be taken for anything more.

Regarding the sirens; it's not always easy to hear a siren - your radio could be too loud, you could be deaf or your car could be just extremely noisy..

Cionád

PauloMN wrote: »

I think we're getting lost in semantics here. What exactly do you mean by "hatched lines"? Do you mean simple broken white lines i.e. overtaking allowed?

I think its just hatched lines in the road, i.e. without any slip for turning right

stimpson

Rules of the road is up here is you need a refresher:

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/pdf-downloads/english/rules-of-the-road%20eng.pdf

Page 44:

You must not overtake when

• You are at or near a pelican crossing, zebra crossing or at pedestrian signals.
• A traffic sign or road marking prohibits it.
• You are approaching a junction.
• You are on the approach to a corner, bend, dip in the road, hump-back bridge, brow of a hill or on a narrow road.
• You are in the left-hand lane of a dual carriageway or motorway when traffic is moving at normal speed.

cormie

I think he means just a broken white line as in - - - - - (where overtaking is fine). It must have been a very minor road that the green car was going into (or perhaps a driveway to a house etc), or maybe just a badly planned road.

It's a hard one to judge in the case of it being a broken white line

---

, where overtaking is allowed as it could be the case that the green car didn't give enough indication and just pulled out immediately while the black car was going too fast (but possibly still within the speed limit) to react with enough time to totally clear the car, but instead reacted with what time they had and hit the front.

Cionád

jameshayes wrote: »

I think you may be taking too much for granted, we don’t know at what point the green car indicated, it could have been whilst the black car was parallel, and regardless, indicators do nothing other than confirm that the blub is working, they should never be taken for anything more.

Regarding the sirens; it's not always easy to hear a siren - your radio could be too loud, you could be deaf or your car could be just extremely noisy..

Sure, we only know certain details, but from what I gather from the story I would put the majority of the blame on the black car, with a lesser amount of blame on the green car. They both made mistakes. We don't know when he indicated, we also don't know alot about the black car. He may have been going 140km/h and was unable to react to the unexpected.

jameshayes

stimpson wrote: »

Rules of the road is up here is you need a refresher:

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/pdf-downloads/english/rules-of-the-road%20eng.pdf

Page 44:

You must not overtake when

• You are at or near a pelican crossing, zebra crossing or at pedestrian signals.
• A traffic sign or road marking prohibits it.
• You are approaching a junction.
• You are on the approach to a corner, bend, dip in the road, hump-back bridge, brow of a hill or on a narrow road.
• You are in the left-hand lane of a dual carriageway or motorway when traffic is moving at normal speed.

I'm too lazy to look now, but the rules of the road also say that you should not do anything (move position, speed up etc) while being overtaken

cormie

stimpson wrote: »

Rules of the road is up here is you need a refresher:

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/pdf-downloads/english/rules-of-the-road%20eng.pdf

Page 44:

You must not overtake when

• You are at or near a pelican crossing, zebra crossing or at pedestrian signals.
• A traffic sign or road marking prohibits it.
• You are approaching a junction.
• You are on the approach to a corner, bend, dip in the road, hump-back bridge, brow of a hill or on a narrow road.
• You are in the left-hand lane of a dual carriageway or motorway when traffic is moving at normal speed.

There's nothing to indicate thus far that the side road was a junction

stimpson

What to do when somebody overtakes you

• Continue at the same pace.
• Keep as near to the left as is safe to do so.
• Do not accelerate.
• Be alert in case the overtaking vehicle suddenly pulls back in front of you.

And for good measure..

Turning right from a major road onto a minor road

• Check your mirrors and blind spots well in advance for traffic following behind you and give a right turn signal.
• As soon as you can do so safely, take up a position just left of the middle of the road or in the space provided for right-turning traffic.
• Where possible, leave room for other vehicles to pass on the left.
• Do not turn the steering wheel until you are ready to make the turn.
• When a safe gap occurs in oncoming traffic, finish your turn so that you enter the left-hand side of the road into which you are turning.
• Do not cut the corner when you turn. Do not make a ‘swan neck’ by passing the correct turning point and then having to turn back into the road you want to enter.

It's possible that the car turning did check their mirrors before the other car started to overtake.

stimpson

cormie wrote: »

There's nothing to indicate thus far that the side road was a junction

How does a side road join a main road without a junction? A ramp through a flaming hoop perhaps?

vbunse

The person in the Green car should bring their car to a hault, apply the hazzard lights, get out when safe and administer a serious beating to the person in the Black car using the wheel brace from the green car. This in turn should therefore also serve as a lesson to onlookers. SLOW DOWN.

Stench Blossoms

jameshayes wrote: »

I'd say the person in the green car is in the wrong, you should never change lane position without checking your mirrors, it could have been the case that a motorcyclist was overtaking you within the white line and the green car could have killed him rather than denting the black car. Check yer mirrors greeny

I don't think the green car is in the wrong here.

It's probably bad practise on my behalf but if I was coming off a main road and turning right I would be looking ahead of me to see if any cars where coming towards me, not checking my mirrors to see if something was driving on the wrong side of the road.

Henry Ford III

Both were at fault, but the green car to a much lesser degree imho.

The black car went to overtake approaching a sideroad, and didn't get back in/stopped when the green car indicated right.

The green car didn't use his mirror.

Maybe 90%/10%?

cormie

stimpson wrote: »

How does a side road join a main road without a junction? A ramp through a flaming hoop perhaps?

I don't think it's viewed as a junction. I think all "junctions" are marked:



Note the "side road" one. This wouldn't be marked if it was just a drive way etc. This hasn't been clarified yet but it appears there were no markings at all

jameshayes

orla wrote: »

It's probably bad practise on my behalf but if I was coming off a main road and turning right I would be looking ahead of me to see if any cars where coming towards me, not checking my mirrors to see if something was driving on the wrong side of the road.

If you done this whilst doing your test you'd fail instantly.

Stench Blossoms

jameshayes wrote: »

If you done this whilst doing your test you'd fail instantly.

Really? Lucky I passed my test first time then isn't it? And lucky in my 5 years driving experience I haven't ever been in a situation where someone overtaking was being careless.

Regardless if the road allows overtakening, the driver of the black car shouldn't have over taken if the road was not clear.

And if the road was clear when the driver of the black car began to overtake, I'd like to know what speed they were travelling at that they didn't notice a car ahead of them which was about to turn.