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Pubs in Limerick to open on Good Friday

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    #62
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    drkpower wrote: »
    What do you think the constitution has to do with a law shutting pubs on Good Friday?

    I have already answered that for you. Seeing as how you refuse to acknowledge the origins and history of laws such as this one it is pointless to continue.


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    #63
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    drkpower wrote: »
    Mind you, with your honours LLB, perhaps you might have been able to appreciate the distinction :rolleyes:.....?

    No, if people are going to :pac: at my perceived lack of understanding something I assume they have a clear understanding of it themselves and don't see the need to anticipate errors in their use of language, and quite where you came to the conclusion that I was saying people looked at the Constitution to decide what laws to enact I have no idea, but like I said I'm out.


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    #64
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    prinz wrote: »
    I have already answered that for you. Seeing as how you refuse to acknowledge the origins and history of laws such as this one it is pointless to continue.

    So is your point that the pubs are prevented from opening on Good Friday because of the preamble to the constitution? Or that the preamble obligates pubs to close on Good Friday? Is that really your point?!!:D

    Come on now, you started waving the constitution around - and you have an honours LLB - so lets see the specific reason you think the reference to the Holy Trinity and Jesus in the preamble is relevent to this law....?


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    #65
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    prinz wrote: »
    No, if people are going to :pac: at my perceived lack of understanding something I assume they have a clear understanding of it themselves and don't see the need to anticipate errors in their use of language, and quite where you came to the conclusion that I was saying people looked at the Constitution to decide what laws to enact I have no idea, but like I said I'm out.

    So my use of the word 'source' in the colloquial sense was an 'error in my use of language' that you are using now to suggest I dont understand the constitution....?! Come on now, try a little bit of honesty! Ive clarified what I meant, so lets move onto the substance.

    I am trying to ascertain why you have raised the constitution as a reason why we have this law. What in the constitution gives you the idea that pubs need to be shut on Good Friday? You raised it - how about justifying it!!


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    #66
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    drkpower wrote: »
    So is your point that the pubs are prevented from opening on Good Friday because of the preamble to the constitution? Or that the preamble obligates pubs to close on Good Friday? Is that really your point?!!:D....

    No, and I assume you are not stupid enough to think so. I may have to reanticipate that assumption. That makes two.
    drkpower wrote: »
    Come on now, you started waving the constitution around - and you have an honours LLB - so lets see the specific reason you think the reference to the Holy Trinity and Jesus in the preamble is relevent to this law....?

    Christian albeit predominantly Catholic ethos of the State.... results in law which marks a Christian feast-day. Shocker. I didn't raise the Constitution as a "reason we have this law", I raised the Constitution so you can see the context in which we have this law as opposed to laws governing opening hours during Ramadan.

    Now why is talking about Ramadan relevant?


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    #67
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    mallet head wrote: »
    I have to go now but if he's gets back on where teachers can work on Easter Monday give me a shout :rolleyes:

    Oh, sorry, was that a serious point...?!:rolleyes:

    I would have thought it was self-evident. The State has chosen a number of State holidays - some are traditional religous festivals, others are not. Whether they were right to choose those specific days is another argument, but in any case, they have decided on those days. And it is reasonable, for many reasons, for the State to designate certain days as Bank Holidays, I think we would all agree. Your employer (the DoE) has decided to close schools on these days and on many others. And it is reasonable, for many reasons, for the DoE to close the schools on all of these days, I think we would all agree (maybe a few too many, but there you go...). Further, you have agreed to that (presumably in your contract). You really should be delighted.....

    The self employed (publicans) are generally free to work whenever they choose. There are certain regulated trades where restrictions are in place. For instance, publicans cant operate after certain hours. These are for reasonable reasons (protection of public health, public order etc). The closing of pubs on Good Friday is not justified on any reasonable grounds. It isnt for protection for public health, for preservation of public order etc.. It is because the day is a religous festival. That is not a reasonable juustifiable ground for restricting a publicans right to earn a living.

    Id have thought the above was self-evident. Thats why I thought you were joking.


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    #68
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    prinz wrote: »
    No, and I assume you are not stupid enough to think so. I may have to reanticipate that assumption. That makes two.



    Christian albeit predominantly Catholic ethos of the State.... results in law which marks a Christian feast-day. Shocker. I didn't raise the Constitution as a "reason we have this law", I raised the Constitution so you can see the context in which we have this law as opposed to laws governing opening hours during Ramadan.

    Now why is talking about Ramadan relevant?

    So the reason why pubs are banned (and publican punished) from opening is because of the need to 'mark' a feast day of a 'Catholic State'.

    First, is it reasonable that this feast day be 'marked' by the prevention of the sale of alcohol, and no other State-enforced restriction on anything else? Where is the objective justification for that (particularly where no other citizens are prevented from trading/earning a living)? Indeed, where is the objective justification for that where no other 'Catholic State' engages in such a practice?

    Second, Im sure you are ware of the 5th amendment to the Constitution. Why is it that this Catholic feast should be so marked by the State in light of that?

    Finally, I simply asked why, if Catholic rituals are given the force of law in this state, why Muslim rituals should not be similarly enshrined, particularly given the 5th amendment to our constitution.


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    #69
    pavcro10
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭pavcro10


    I agree with this, the church doesnt deserve to have any relavance in irish life anymore after all the scandel. hopefully taking away its holidays is a step in wiping it out altogether


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    #70
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    drkpower wrote: »
    So the reason why pubs are banned (and publican punished) from opening is because of the need to 'mark' a feast day of a 'Catholic State'. First, is it reasonable that this feast day be 'marked' by the prevention of the sale of alcohol, and no other State-enforced restriction on anything else? Where is the objective justification for that (particularly where no other citizens are prevented from trading/earning a living)? Indeed, where is the objective justification for that where no other 'Catholic State' engages in such a practice? Second, Im sure you are ware of the 5th amendment to the Constitution. Why is it that this Catholic feast should be so marked by the State in light of that?.

    For some reason you are expecting me to defend a law I already noted as silly and see no issue with over turning.
    drkpower wrote: »
    Finally, I simply asked why, if Catholic rituals are given the force of law in this state, why Muslim rituals should not be similarly enshrined, particularly given the 5th amendment to our constitution.

    For this I'll refer you back to the Preamble. There's no mention, rightly or wrongly, of Islam in it.


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    #71
    mallet head
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭mallet head


    pavcro10 wrote: »
    I agree with this, the church doesnt deserve to have any relavance in irish life anymore after all the scandel. hopefully taking away its holidays is a step in wiping it out altogether

    The people how perpetuated the crimes you talk about are very far removed from Christian values and Christianity in general.
    Why should millions suffer because of the crimes of a few?


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    #72
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    prinz wrote: »
    For some reason you are expecting me to defend a law I already noted as silly and see no issue with over turning. .

    When you raised the constitution as a 'rational justification' for this law some pages ago, it seemed you were in some agreement with it. But Im glad that that is clear. It is, indeed, a silly law.
    prinz wrote: »
    For this I'll refer you back to the Preamble. There's no mention, rightly or wrongly, of Islam in it.

    Im sure that, in your LLB, which you did very well in, you would have learned of the relative position, the relative 'weighting', given to the preamble and that given to the actual constitution proper. And im sure you are aware of the provisions of A. 44 and the freedoms that that provides. Dont you think that those freedoms 'trump' the references to the Trinity and Jesus in the preamble? Do you not think that being prohibited from earning a livelihood (a constitutional right) on the basis of the teachings of one religon is acceptable?

    Oh, and by the way, what does the preamble have to do with banning alcohol on Good Friday?


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    #73
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    mallet head wrote: »
    The people how perpetuated the crimes you talk about are very far removed from Christian values and Christianity in general.
    Why should millions suffer because of the crimes of a few?

    What millions are you refering to? If its catholics I dont see how the removal of the power base, pomp, wealth and corruption of The Vatican and the institutuion of the church would cause suffering. It would be the best thing that could happen to Catholicism... or do Catholics really need their hands held so much that to not have them held would be a form of suffering?


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    #74
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    As an RC, I would like to see the ban maintained on religious grounds.

    This country is a Catholic country and alcohol can be sold 363 days of the year.
    The exception being Good Friday and Christmas Day.


    Separately, this country is obsessed with alcohol and alcohol consumption.
    You had the Vintners whingeing about the smoking ban and it's effect on alcohol sales.
    A couple of months back they were whingeing about below cost selling of alcohol.
    You also had them whingeing about the imposition of higher taxes on cider.

    I will observe Good Friday as I always do.
    I will attend services every three hours at St Johns Lane Church like I do each year and I will fast.


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    #75
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    hinault wrote: »
    As an RC, I would like to see the ban maintained on religious grounds.

    This country is a Catholic country and alcohol can be sold 363 days of the year.
    The exception being Good Friday and Christmas Day.


    Separately, this country is obsessed with alcohol and alcohol consumption.
    You had the Vintners whingeing about the smoking ban and it's effect on alcohol sales.
    A couple of months back they were whingeing about below cost selling of alcohol.
    You also had them whingeing about the imposition of higher taxes on cider.

    I will observe Good Friday as I always do.
    I will attend services every three hours at St Johns Lane Church like I do each year and I will fast.
    Correction. This is a republic. State and religion should not intermingle irrespective of whether a large majority of the population is obsessed with alcohol or not. Im not much of a drinker but I am an adult Irish citizen who pays tax and has the same responsibilities and rights as any other. You have the right to worship what when and how you want 365 days a year and I should have the right to do what is legal 365 days a year. Wheres the conflict?
    Yes the Vintners whinge but how is that relevant to a dwindling religion which thinks its beliefs should be forced onto others and enshrined in law?


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    #76
    blubloblu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭blubloblu


    For christians to be making a sacrifice and professing their religion, the temptation should be available, or else there's no challenge at all.


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    #77
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Correction. This is a republic. State and religion should not intermingle irrespective of whether a large majority of the population is obsessed with alcohol or not. Im not much of a drinker but I am an adult Irish citizen who pays tax and has the same responsibilities and rights as any other. You have the right to worship what when and how you want 365 days a year and I should have the right to do what is legal 365 days a year. Wheres the conflict?
    Yes the Vintners whinge but how is that relevant to a dwindling religion which thinks its beliefs should be forced onto others and enshrined in law?


    But it is not legal to sell alcohol on Good Friday and Christmas Day.
    The Limerick judgement excepted.

    I hope this State keep Good Friday and Christmas Day as they are.


    I guess we can agree to disagree.


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    #78
    flames
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭flames


    Religion should not be enshrined in law, legally it should be freedom of choice and if someone wants to go the pub on a good friday then thats their choice just like it's their choice to go to mass on a sunday and any other day of the year. by shutting pubs on a good friday you are also prohibiting other religions/atheists from going into a pub because it's a catholic holiday now i'm sure there is a great argument for the high courts there


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    #79
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    blubloblu wrote: »
    For christians to be making a sacrifice and professing their religion, the temptation should be available, or else there's no challenge at all.

    Nonsense. While I don't support the ban, I can't imagine why anyone would think that temptation must be put in a Christian's way (in this case under the lips of a Catholic) for there to be any value in abstaining. By the same logic Christians should advocate the legalisation of coke and hookers just so they can avoid them.

    While I'm disappointed that the annual furor is about a drug that we, as a nation, have a huge problem with, the law should go because it unduly forces non-Catholics (and I'm a Christian who happens to be one of them) to conform to a belief or practice that they don't subscribe to. The suggestion that it should go because it provides Catholics with an opportunity to show God just how good they are boggles the mind.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go back and finish my 19 year old single malt.


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    #80
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    hinault wrote: »
    But it is not legal to sell alcohol on Good Friday and Christmas Day.
    The Limerick judgement excepted.

    I hope this State keep Good Friday and Christmas Day as they are.


    I guess we can agree to disagree.
    Its illegal for religious reasons. A religion I dont subscribe to. Im an Irish citizen not an irish Catholic citizen.


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