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Pubs in Limerick to open on Good Friday

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    #32
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    drkpower wrote: »
    If the supposed rational justification for a law closing public houses on Good Friday is that it is in respect for Jesus/Christian faith or something of that sort, why dont we close other institutions on particular days which are important for other religous faiths?

    Do you know the Constitution of this country?


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    #33
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Manach wrote: »
    I disagree. In General when judges are reviewing the consitution one of the modes of intrepretion is based on the history and ethos of the country. In Ireland there are numerous Supreme Court judgements mentioning that.

    Thats incredibly vague and irrelevent. What does it have to do with this law and whether this law is sustainable or justifiable?

    This law has nothing to do with the constitution.


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    #34
    mallet head
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭mallet head


    I presume all the people who think the bars should open Good Friday on anti-religious grounds will be volunteering to work Paddies day, Christmas day, St Stephens Day, Easter Sunday and every Sunday on a flat rate as a matter of principal. Don't forget to work on those lovely religion related bank holiday Mondays you get as well folks.

    The last thing we want is a lack of consistency surely?


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    #35
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    prinz wrote: »
    Do you know the Constitution of this country?

    Yes, very well.
    Point to me the bits are relevent to the shutting of public houses on Good Friday.


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    #36
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    mallet head wrote: »
    I presume all the people who think the bars should open Good Friday on anti-religious grounds will be volunteering to work Paddies day, Christmas day, St Stephens Day, Easter Sunday and every Sunday on a flat rate as a matter of principal. Don't forget to work on those lovely religion related bank holiday Mondays you get as well folks.

    The last thing we want is a lack of consistency surely?

    Pubs are already free to open on all of those days (bar one). And many people work on all of these days as a matter of course. In fact Good Friday is a regular working day for most. So all of the above is irrelevent.

    The State has chosen a number of 'religous' days as State holidays. Noone is restricted from working, or forced to shut on those days. Other than the similar arrangement vis-a-vis Christmas Day, it is irrlevent to this discussion.


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    #37
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    drkpower wrote: »
    Yes, very well.
    Point to me the bits are relevent to the shutting of public houses on Good Friday.

    The preamble should do nicely. Without it it is irrelevant to consider laws of the land without due notice to the social and cultural history of the State.


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    #38
    flames
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭flames


    EH why don't the pubs in Lourdes close on Good Friday.


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    #39
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    prinz wrote: »
    The preamble should do nicely. Without it it is irrelevant to consider laws of the land without due notice to the social and cultural history of the State.

    Before I entertain your views on the constitution and what the preamble has to say about shutting bars on Good Friday, lets just explore why you are waving the constitution around in this discussion?

    What do you think the constitution has to do with a law shutting pubs on Good Friday?


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    #40
    mallet head
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭mallet head


    drkpower wrote: »
    The State has chosen a number of 'religous' days as State holidays. Noone is restricted from working, or forced to shut on those days.

    Great I'm a school teacher I'll pop in Easter Monday, paddies day and St Stephens day. Handy few quid.


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    #41
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    drkpower wrote: »
    What do you think the constitution has to do with a law shutting pubs on Good Friday?

    Simply because you think the cultural, historical, and social background to the law itself is irrelevant. It isn't.

    I am indifferent on the law itself, over turn it, I don't care but writing the origins of the law off as a 'surplus to requirement history lesson' is idiotic, if you are then going to start bringing in hypothetical laws in relation to other religions.


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    #42
    sflemings
    Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭sflemings


    Does anyone here think that this is just all about making money? Most people here think all this debate is about a bunch of people in Limerick who have gotten one over on the catholic church and overturning the ban on alcohol sales.

    Magners picked Good Friday for the match. The publicans said "Ah s**t. we can't sell drink that day. We could make a fortune if we can change that. Let's go take it to court"

    I don't think they said now's our chance to beat the catholic church some more. IMO it's all about making money


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    #43
    Tea 1000
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    drkpower wrote: »
    Of course it does.

    If the supposed rational justification for a law closing public houses on Good Friday is that it is in respect for Jesus/Christian faith or something of that sort, why dont we close other institutions on particular days which are important for other religous faiths?
    Because 3,409,381 people according to the 2006 Census of population are Catholic.
    Now you can speculate that most don't go to mass or put it down out of habbit or what ever you like, but that's the figure. In a democracy, the majority should be catered for, don't you agree?
    Do you complain and moan when in a country that is mostly muslim when their feast days affect shops etc?
    Why are you so eager to stand up for other religious beliefs and at the same time so eager to slate Catholics?


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    #44
    Tea 1000
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    sflemings wrote: »
    Does anyone here think that this is just all about making money? Most people here think all this debate is about a bunch of people in Limerick who have gotten one over on the catholic church and overturning the ban on alcohol sales.

    Magners picked Good Friday for the match. The publicans said "Ah s**t. we can't sell drink that day. We could make a fortune if we can change that. Let's go take it to court"

    I don't think they said now's our chance to beat the catholic church some more. IMO it's all about making money
    The reason was money driven. The attitude by some seems to be getting one over on the Catholic Church.
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/novelty-tshirts-rub-salt-in-wounds-of-the-faithful-2112514.html
    At the end of the day they should have just changed the date and avoided all this time wasting and arguements.


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    #45
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    prinz wrote: »
    Simply because you think the cultural, historical, and social background to the law itself is irrelevant. It isn't.

    I am indifferent on the law itself, over turn it, I don't care but writing the origins of the law off as a 'surplus to requirement history lesson' is idiotic, if you are then going to start bringing in hypothetical laws in relation to other religions.

    Oh I see, when you pointed to the constitution, you werent making any legal point...?!:eek: The constitution doesnt have any other standing other than legal standing. So pointing to it is irrelevent unless you were making a legal point. Which you werent.....:rolleyes:

    So lets move on to cultural, historical and social background then..... Does the mere fact that we have done something for years and years mean we should enshrine it in law and punish others if they dont want to continue doing something? Or should there be something more to what laws we enact? If so, please tell me what the rational justification is for this law.


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    #46
    mallet head
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭mallet head


    Tea 1000 wrote: »
    At the end of the day they should have just changed the date and avoided all this time wasting and arguements.


    You probably said that unintentionally but it kinda throws a light on our relationship with drink in this country. Why should a sporting event have to be changed due to an alcohol supply issue?


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    #47
    Tea 1000
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    mallet head wrote: »
    You probably said that unintentionally but it kinda throws a light on our relationship with drink in this country. Why should a sporting event have to be changed due to an alcohol supply issue?
    Because it's obviously important enough to find exemption from the law for.


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    #48
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    drkpower wrote: »
    Oh I see, when you pointed to the constitution, you werent making any legal point...?!:eek: The constitution doesnt have any other standing other than legal standing. So pointing to it is irrelevent unless you were making a legal point. Which you werent.....:rolleyes:.


    And this law has no other standing other than a legal standing.... any time you want to start making sense, I'm available. For now, I will continue... the Constitution is the primary legal reference point in this State. The preamble to our Bunreacht includes reference to Jesus Christ, and Christianity. All laws enacted in this state must defer to the Bunreacht. Any law examined in this State must be examined in light of the Constitution.

    Any laws enacted which have a relationship to Christianity have to be looked at in this context. Therefore hypothesizing as you were about laws dealing specifically with other religions is pointless in this debate.
    drkpower wrote: »
    So lets move on to cultural, historical and social background then..... Does the mere fact that we have done something for years and years mean we should enshrine it in law and punish others if they dont want to continue doing something?

    No. Neither does it mean we should get rid of it just because it's been on the statute books for years and years.


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    #49
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Tea 1000 wrote: »
    Because 3,409,381 people according to the 2006 Census of population are Catholic.
    Now you can speculate that most don't go to mass or put it down out of habbit or what ever you like, but that's the figure. In a democracy, the majority should be catered for, don't you agree?

    In a democracy, the majority and the minority should be catered for. Catering for the majority does not involve punishing the minority for doing what they want to do. If pubs were open on Good Friday, how would it affect the free will and choices of the majority?
    Tea 1000 wrote: »
    Do you complain and moan when in a country that is mostly muslim when their feast days affect shops etc?

    Ive never been in a 'Muslim' country but I disagree with imposing Muslim laws on any country without an 'opt-out' for those who disagree. Naturally, given I live in this country, I have more of an interest in the laws that govern us here.
    Tea 1000 wrote: »
    Why are you so eager to stand up for other religious beliefs and at the same time so eager to slate Catholics?
    What other beliefs am I standing up for?


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    #50
    mallet head
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭mallet head


    Tea 1000 wrote: »
    Because it's obviously important enough to find exemption from the law for.


    I know, Ridiculous what one day without gargle will do. We have to amend the laws of the land for drink.


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    #51
    Tea 1000
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    drkpower wrote: »
    In a democracy, the majority and the minority should be catered for. Catering for the majority does not involve punishing the minority for doing what they want to do. If pubs were open on Good Friday, how would it affect the free will and choices of the majority?
    You think 2 days in the year that pubs must close is punishment? Maybe publicans families might like the fact that they have a full family day out twice per year!
    And it's not often you can cater for both a majority and a minority at the same time, so in that case I believe you should cater for the majority.


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    #52
    Fizman
    Registered Users Posts: 6,605 ✭✭✭Fizman


    bleg wrote: »
    Won't get to watch it either, no Setanta for me. :(

    Have a look in the rugby forum when the game is starting. You should get a few links to live streams so you can watch the game. They're usually pretty ok.


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    #53
    Tea 1000
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    mallet head wrote: »
    I know, Ridiculous what one day without gargle will do. We have to amend the laws of the land for drink.
    It's kind of sad really. Everything in this country revolves around the pub. I even remember under 12's matches victories being celebrated in pubs.


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    #54
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    prinz wrote: »
    And this law has no other standing other than a legal standing.... any time you want to start making sense, I'm available. For now, I will continue... the Constitution is the primary legal reference point in this State. The preamble to our Bunreacht includes reference to Jesus Christ, and Christianity. All laws enacted in this state must defer to the Bunreacht. Any law examined in this State must be examined in light of the Constitution..Any laws enacted which have a relationship to Christianity have to be looked at in this context. Therefore hypothesizing as you were about laws dealing specifically with other religions is pointless in this debate

    :pac:
    Im afriad you dont have much of an idea of the role of the constitution...! It is not a reference book! It is not a source of laws. It is not examined to see what laws might be a good idea....... Do you know what it is there for....??!!

    So, before we delve deeper into your 'knowledge' of the constitution, please tell me what you think the constitution has to do with a law shutting pubs on Good Friday? For instance, was yesterday's decision unconstitutional?

    So please, you were the one who asked me if I knew the constitution. I do. Lets see why you brought it up and what on earth it has to do with this law.:P
    prinz wrote: »
    No. Neither does it mean we should get rid of it.

    Perhaps you might explain why we should maintain it. I have explained clearly why we should get rid of it.


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    #55
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Tea 1000 wrote: »
    You think 2 days in the year that pubs must close is punishment? Maybe publicans families might like the fact that they have a full family day out twice per year!
    And it's not often you can cater for both a majority and a minority at the same time, so in that case I believe you should cater for the majority.

    Unreasonably and unjustifiably restricting people's choices is a 'punishment' of sorts. Unreasonably and unjustifiably restricting publicans ability to earn a living is a 'punishment' of sorts. Criminalising/fining publicans who go against an unreasonable and unjustifiable restriction is most certainly a punishment.

    Now, you answer me: how does allowing pubs to open on Good Friday punish a Catholic?


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    #56
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    drkpower wrote: »
    :pac:
    Im afriad you dont have much of an idea of the role of the constitution...! It is not a reference book! It is not a source of laws. It is not examined to see what laws might be a good idea....... Do you know what it is there for....??!
    The Irish Constitution of 1937 (also in print) is the primary source of statutory law in Ireland.

    http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/research/guides/int_foreign/ireland/index.html

    Harvard Law. What would they know.

    Hell what would I know, I only have an honours LLB. On that note, I will leave you to it.


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    #57
    Tea 1000
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    drkpower wrote: »
    Unreasonably and unjustifiably restricting people's choices is a 'punishment' of sorts. Unreasonably and unjustifiably restricting publicans ability to earn a living is a 'punishment' of sorts. Criminalising/fining publicans who go against an unreasonable and unjustifiable restriction is most certainly a punishment.

    Now, you answer me: how does allowing pubs to open on Good Friday punish a Catholic?
    That's an irrelevant question to me, because I don't think forcing them to close is any punishment at all.


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    #58
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Tea 1000 wrote: »
    That's an irrelevant question to me, because I don't think forcing them to close is any punishment at all.

    Isnt it about what they think? They are the one's facing the punishment.


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    #59
    mallet head
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭mallet head


    Tea 1000 wrote: »
    That's an irrelevant question to me, because I don't think forcing them to close is any punishment at all.



    I have to go now but if he's gets back on where teachers can work on Easter Monday give me a shout :rolleyes:


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    #60
    Cuddlytroll
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭Cuddlytroll


    mallet head wrote: »
    I know, Ridiculous what one day without gargle will do. We have to amend the laws of the land for drink.
    It is pretty ridiculous alright that we have to amend the laws of the land which relate to the selling of drink for drink.


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    #61
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    prinz wrote: »
    http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/research/guides/int_foreign/ireland/index.html
    .

    Perhaps I should re-phrase 'source of laws' - what I was referring to in this conversation is that legislators do not use the constitution to determine what new laws they should make or that they are obliged to make - i meant 'source' in the colloquial sense. It is not necessarily used as an idea, as inspiration, for laws, and was not a source of law in that respect.

    The 'Source of Laws', as a legal concept, is somewhat different. For instance, in the US, law is derived from four sources, constitutional, administrative, regulations, and the common law (including case law). It's a relatively fine point and I apologise that my phrasing caused some confusion.

    Mind you, with your honours LLB, perhaps you might have been able to appreciate the distinction :rolleyes:.....?
    prinz wrote: »
    Hell what would I know, I only have an honours LLB. On that note, I will leave you to it.

    Maybe before you head off, and since you brought the constitutiuon into this, you might actually answer the question I have asked a number of times now but which your honours LLB has failed to answer for you:

    What do you think the constitution has to do with a law shutting pubs on Good Friday?


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