[Article] Galway to Limerick rail route to run at €2.4m loss

wild handlin

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

Sickening isn't it - one of the largest commuting towns in the West of Ireland with a workable commuter potential and it is ignored completely and especially by the West on Track shower and their small army of Ryanaired Fruitcakes.

What about Tuam!?

DWCommuter

wild handlin wrote: »

What about Tuam!?

What about it? The point being made is that Oranmore is actually ON an operating railway where service frequency is being ramped up.

Judgement Day

Interesting point I just noticed on IRN. IE are so 'enthusiastic' about the WRC that on the first day of operation they have not bothered to offer FREE travel - unlike on the first day of the Midleton re-opening. :rolleyes:

DWCommuter

wild handlin wrote: »

Personally I think it's a disgrace the line speed which IE have set, the rubbish rolling stock it's putting on the line - and the COMPLETE lack of publicity on the opening of the line. The timetable and journey times are beyond a joke, and shows just how interested IE are in operating the line.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out it's the same standard of track, and same standard of enginering which has gone into the WRC as there has been on the Dublin - Cork mainline, regarding track, signalling etc. 50mph for much of thw way is utterly laughable.

Regardless of the type of track or signalling, the very nature of the line makes it impossible to offer higher speeds. It was poorly built in the first place all those years ago. No amount of window dressing can make it better.

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

Interesting point I just noticed on IRN. IE are so 'enthusiastic' about the WRC that on the first day of operation they have not bothered to offer FREE travel - unlike on the first day of the Midleton re-opening. :rolleyes:

Like with like JD.;)

Judgement Day

DWCommuter wrote: »

Like with like JD.;)

Well, given what the scale of the losses are likely to be on the WRC I wouldn't have thought that a FREE day would make much difference?

dowlingm

wild handlin wrote: »

Remember - that ALL railway lines in Ireland recieve a subsidy from the Govt. not just the "less used lines".

Given the manner in which rail is operated and funded, I think that might be a matter of opinion. Do you mean by train service or by kilometre of rail? If by kilometre of rail Drogheda-Connolly should be bringing in a ton of money, what with DART, Suburban, Enterprise and freight all over a mere two tracks.

Of course, separating this section of rail out from the network is a bit pointless but it goes to show that you can make a line out to be profitable or lossmaking depending on whether you account of system-wide overheads or not. IE executives won't reduce their salaries proportionate to the amount of rail they supervise, so sending a lifting train only reduces a fraction of the costs a line would normally be assigned.

dowlingm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Interesting point I just noticed on IRN. IE are so 'enthusiastic' about the WRC that on the first day of operation they have not bothered to offer FREE travel - unlike on the first day of the Midleton re-opening. :rolleyes:

That's because in Midleton they actually want to board the train whereas in the Wesht they just like to hear the toot of the horn as it goes by empty :D:D:D:D:D

monument

Will the train have any time advantage at any time of the week? Say, Fridays at peek times?

Last time I got a bus out of Galway (to Dublin), after missing the midday train, I regretted not waiting for the evening train. At least an hour before getting out of Galway on the bus, car journey time would have been the same or worse.

corktina

Don't forget the car also has a huge advantage in that it goes where you want to go, whereas with the train you have to get to it and from it...meaning the REAL time disadvantage is even bigger than 30 minutes....massively so I would say

monument

corktina wrote: »

Don't forget the car also has a huge advantage in that it goes where you want to go, whereas with the train you have to get to it and from it...meaning the REAL time disadvantage is even bigger than 30 minutes....massively so I would say

That would all depend on the journey. At one extrema you have somebody who lives within 10 mins of a station and is travelling to a destination close to another station. At another, both are far away from the stations.

Somewhere in between is the option of driving or getting a lift to the station near to where you live and, say, getting the train in and out of Galway.

So, words like massively start to apply to less and less journeys.

wild handlin

dowlingm wrote: »

Given the manner in which rail is operated and funded, I think that might be a matter of opinion. Do you mean by train service or by kilometre of rail? If by kilometre of rail Drogheda-Connolly should be bringing in a ton of money, what with DART, Suburban, Enterprise and freight all over a mere two tracks.


I mean in terms of each journey dowlingm. It's my understanding (unless someone can correct me?) that basically IE are given a lump sum each year from the Govt. to cover maintence, track renewals, etc, of which a certain percentage goes on each ticket price. For example, Dublin - Cork is what? €60 return?? If it wasn't subsidised then I recon it would be €90+.

Regarding the use of passengers using the Drogheda - Connolly line for example, I'm almost sure no matter what profit is collected from wherever, but it's put into the entire network, rather than 1 line.
Also - railfreight is a sector in it's own right as I understand, and any profits which are gained in running the flow stay in the sector, rather than going into the "pot" (unless anyone can correct me?) as freight by rail aint subsidised in this country. And anyway, as we all know how keen IE are to "develop" railfreight in this country very little of the traffic remains.

wild handlin

DWCommuter wrote: »

Regardless of the type of track or signalling, the very nature of the line makes it impossible to offer higher speeds. It was poorly built in the first place all those years ago. No amount of window dressing can make it better.

I wouldn't agree fully in what you say DWCommuter.

There are streches of the line where 60mph+ are capible, and with sufficent rolling stock those speeds could be easily achieved rather than the clapped out rubbish which is going on the line.

Also, you could say the same for the Ballybrohpy - Limerick line, which has had major track work doing (new rails and sleepers) from near Nenagh - Killonan Jctn, yet it's only (or was last time I was down there) 25mph!! Considering the line used to be 60mph in the days of jointed track says alot for IE in terms of interest of the line.
It takes the Nenagh Commuter service 62 mins to travel from Nenagh - Limerick. I could walk faster - (well, not literally, but you get my point...I hope!)

wild handlin

DWCommuter wrote: »

What about it? The point being made is that Oranmore is actually ON an operating railway where service frequency is being ramped up.

Then why is there nothing been done about it? I thought the plan was to have a P&R complete with Station come the opening of the WRC?

DWCommuter

wild handlin wrote: »

I thought the plan was to have a P&R complete with Station come the opening of the WRC?

So did I.

DWCommuter

wild handlin wrote: »

I wouldn't agree fully in what you say DWCommuter.

There are streches of the line where 60mph+ are capible, and with sufficent rolling stock those speeds could be easily achieved rather than the clapped out rubbish which is going on the line.

Also, you could say the same for the Ballybrohpy - Limerick line, which has had major track work doing (new rails and sleepers) from near Nenagh - Killonan Jctn, yet it's only (or was last time I was down there) 25mph!! Considering the line used to be 60mph in the days of jointed track says alot for IE in terms of interest of the line.
It takes the Nenagh Commuter service 62 mins to travel from Nenagh - Limerick. I could walk faster - (well, not literally, but you get my point...I hope!)

Re the WRC - I thought it had 70mph running where possible, but the majority of it was 50 mph. I've seen old timetables for it and know the line backwards. Even in its hey day 50 mph was lucky. Some of the curves and gradients are frightening.

I'd agree with you on the ballybrophy example though. Definite dirty campaign by IE down there. But that line was a much better build quality than the WRC.

As for the clapped out rubbish of rolling stock, well I wouldn't go that far, but its certainly not suitable for the journey time. Unfortunately this is the kind of residue that will linger when a rail project is built on the basis of political pressure imposed by a campaign that was based on the outdated whims of an old priest and bandwagoned by bored wannabe media types. The guys in WOT remind me of those lads that love MC'ing pub quizzes. They are big fish in a miniscule pond and have no real knowledge of what they are doing or its consequences.

WOT get a lot of credit here for being a very successful lobby. But their ignorance will ultimately cause more problems because the have fooled the west of Ireland by portraying this poor railway line as the panacea to social and economic development. They drove their campaign on the basis of getting the line reopened and with no regard for service standards. It can't even offer a train from Galway after half 5 in the evening. When people complain, WOT will blame IE, but that would be disingenuous, because if you can hold a Government to ransom over a lousy few miles of railway, then you should have enough cop on to make sure that the proposed operation of the line is in a manner that meets 21st century needs - and quite frankly this rail line isn't.

JHMEG

wild handlin wrote: »

Remember - that ALL railway lines in Ireland recieve a subsidy from the Govt. not just the "less used lines".

This must be one of the few that is slower than all the alternatives, and probably more expensive too.

I've no problem with subsidising genuine public services, ie where they greatly improve the journey times and therefore quality of life (eg DART), or where they provide a service that's out of hours to shift workers, etc.

I do have a problem using my money to subsidise white elephants tho.

wild handlin

DWCommuter wrote: »

Re the WRC - I thought it had 70mph running where possible, but the majority of it was 50 mph. I've seen old timetables for it and know the line backwards. Even in its hey day 50 mph was lucky. Some of the curves and gradients are frightening.

I'd agree with you on the ballybrophy example though. Definite dirty campaign by IE down there. But that line was a much better build quality than the WRC.

As for the clapped out rubbish of rolling stock, well I wouldn't go that far, but its certainly not suitable for the journey time. Unfortunately this is the kind of residue that will linger when a rail project is built on the basis of political pressure imposed by a campaign that was based on the outdated whims of an old priest and bandwagoned by bored wannabe media types. The guys in WOT remind me of those lads that love MC'ing pub quizzes. They are big fish in a miniscule pond and have no real knowledge of what they are doing or its consequences.

I agree with what you are saying DWCommuter, and yes, there are some serious curves and gradients on the line from Limerick - Atherny, but with todays modern technology and infrastructer surely it could be upped to 60mph at least, with restrictions on the sharp curves.

Regarding the rolling stock - I presume it's the same stock which will be used on the Limerick - Waterford line. If so it is utter trash in my opinion!! Certainly not suitable for anything other than short commuter journeys. You have lots and lots of Mk3's parked up in Heuston - why not put 2 rakes of them out on the line - or better still, what about a 2x sets of 22000s units. Mind you - when they find it hard to put a set on the Wexford line, what hope is there of 1 being found spare for the WRC!! :rolleyes:

I'll probably be shot down in flames for saying this but if what is predicted (e.g low passenger numbers) come to fruition, I would say that it's not the end of the world. The line (once complete to Claremorris) could be used for freight traffic to the South East - and hopefully grow the existing service that is currently there, and entice new customers to using the freight service. What is really needed is a private freight operator over here paying IE for the use of the track - and then providing their own locos/stock/drivers etc for the service. That way the line would be getting revinue of some sort if passenger numbers are anticipated to being so low. (Which personally I hope not).

Although, thinking about it from my opinion. Ennis - Atherny's potential will only be realised when the Atherny - Tuam - Claremorris section opens, thus having a thru line (hopefully better speeds Atherny - Tuam - Claremorris than on Atherny - Ennis).

Also there should in theory be a very healthy commuter traffic running from Tuam - Galway in the mornings and evenings.

DWCommuter

wild handlin wrote: »

I agree with what you are saying DWCommuter, and yes, there are some serious curves and gradients on the line from Limerick - Atherny, but with todays modern technology and infrastructer surely it could be upped to 60mph at least, with restrictions on the sharp curves.

Regarding the rolling stock - I presume it's the same stock which will be used on the Limerick - Waterford line. If so it is utter trash in my opinion!! Certainly not suitable for anything other than short commuter journeys. You have lots and lots of Mk3's parked up in Heuston - why not put 2 rakes of them out on the line - or better still, what about a 2x sets of 22000s units. Mind you - when they find it hard to put a set on the Wexford line, what hope is there of 1 being found spare for the WRC!! :rolleyes:

I'll probably be shot down in flames for saying this but if what is predicted (e.g low passenger numbers) come to fruition, I would say that it's not the end of the world. The line (once complete to Claremorris) could be used for freight traffic to the South East - and hopefully grow the existing service that is currently there, and entice new customers to using the freight service. What is really needed is a private freight operator over here paying IE for the use of the track - and then providing their own locos/stock/drivers etc for the service. That way the line would be getting revinue of some sort if passenger numbers are anticipated to being so low. (Which personally I hope not).

Although, thinking about it from my opinion. Ennis - Atherny's potential will only be realised when the Atherny - Tuam - Claremorris section opens, thus having a thru line (hopefully better speeds Atherny - Tuam - Claremorris than on Atherny - Ennis).

Also there should in theory be a very healthy commuter traffic running from Tuam - Galway in the mornings and evenings.

Freight? Can't see it happening myself.

As for extending to Claremorris, well the population densities get even smaller and the line speeds do not improve at all. As for a "thru line", the whole Intercity mentality of Ennis-Athenry flies out the window when you add in Athenry - Claremorris. People may want this line open, but it looks like they want various services operating on it and all in a part of the country that has absolutely no population base to justify it.

As a piece of infrastructure, its useless in the 21st century. The only possible connection that has any kind of chance is Limerick - Galway but realistically it required a spanking new line as the existing one was never designed or built as an intercity route. The rest of the WRC is a joke and only has merit in a country that is awash with money. We aren't and actually never were.

Conclusion after years of debate: The WRC has no role in 21st century Ireland. Rail is struggling as it is between our larger cities. Roads can and will beat it hands down. It will never be extended north of Athenry and I reckon Ennis - Athenry will close within the lifetime of many posters on this forum.

Carawaystick

DWCommuter wrote: »

I reckon Ennis - Athenry will close within the lifetime of many posters on this forum.

Ah come on, as a member of the zoo I let your suggestion slide about that but there's none of us that old on here. the line'll close *long* before any of us is dancin with the reaper.

when ff get back into power they'll probably close it to annoy inda and eamonn.

Stinicker

Is there going to be a Cork - Mallow - Limerick - Ennis - Galway service?

Judgement Day

Stinicker wrote: »

Is there going to be a Cork - Mallow - Limerick - Ennis - Galway service?

Er No!! Unless you change trains at least twice and have a day to spend admiring the pines in Limerick Junction, savouring the delights of Hell Limerick Station and then a leisurely jaunt along the WRC. Then there is the matter of cost.
Bus Eireann run an hourly service between the two cities during the day which takes about 4 hours 20 minutes: http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1202290116-51.pdf

corktina

IE dont do joined up thinking (or joined up trains come to that!)

FlameoftheWest

wild handlin wrote: »

What about Tuam!?

The issue is Oranmore having trains pass through it constantly - the rail commuting town of the greatest potential West of the Shannon not currently served by rail remains so and most likely always will thanks to WestonTrack and their small army of tourists. It's certain people from places such as Tuam along with this Fantasy Railfreight Psychosis who are behind this whole campaign is the reason why we have this mess. Nothing against the Tuam people or their town - it's their local victim professional victim complex in all these places who are the problem.

KevR

wild handlin wrote: »

Then why is there nothing been done about it? I thought the plan was to have a P&R complete with Station come the opening of the WRC?

I did too.

There have been whispers of a totally seperate bus P&R for Oranmore and in Doughiska. I think either of these would be a massive mistake.

I love Galway which is why it's really hard for me to watch the city sabotage itself.

Stuff like this sickens me

The group said the construction of the next phase of the WRC from Tuam to Claremorris in Co. Mayo was "imperative"for the West of Ireland in term of "supporting balanced regional development," and would support a significant number of high-skilled jobs and boost tourism.

as it couldn't be further from the truth. The fact is a proper P&R setup in Oranmore and a station with connecting bus services in Renmore would contribute a lot more to balanced regional development and support a lot more highly skilled jobs than a Claremorris line ever would.

The main city in the West of Ireland (Galway) is choked with traffic and has dire public transport options, no solution to this is forthcoming. As a result, the regional development gap (between the East coast and West coast) is only going to get wider. Who in their right mind would setup a business in the West of Ireland when the East has much better transport options in and around it's main urban areas?

KevR

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

The issue is Oranmore having trains pass through it constantly - the rail commuting town of the greatest potential West of the Shannon not currently served by rail remains so and most likely always will thanks to WestonTrack and their small army of tourists. It's certain people from places such as Tuam along with this Fantasy Railfreight Psychosis who are behind this whole campaign is the reason why we have this mess. Nothing against the Tuam people or their town - it's their local victim professional victim complex in all these places who are the problem.

This can never be highlighted enough.

DWCommuter

KevR wrote: »

This can never be highlighted enough.

And just for the record KevR, Platform 11 (rail lobby) presented this to West on Track in 2005 and asked them to include it in their campaign and they said no.

Stinicker

Judgement Day wrote: »

Er No!! Unless you change trains at least twice and have a day to spend admiring the pines in Limerick Junction, savouring the delights of Hell Limerick Station and then a leisurely jaunt along the WRC. Then there is the matter of cost.
Bus Eireann run an hourly service between the two cities during the day which takes about 4 hours 20 minutes: http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1202290116-51.pdf

Surely it is via intercity like that which would have seen the biggest demand from service. There should be at least a twice daily Cork - Mallow - Limerick - Ennis - Galway service. It is on services like this the demand is especially from tourists and students. It looks to me like another unmitigated Irish rail disaster and they'd have been as well off putting the money into a Limerick - Cork motorway when they aren't going to be bothered running a proper service. I also suppose they never even bothered to electrify the route either.

FlameoftheWest

DWCommuter wrote: »

And just for the record KevR, Platform 11 (rail lobby) presented this to West on Track in 2005 and asked them to include it in their campaign and they said no.

Incredible mentality that. Yet on their website are images of trains with "KNOCK AIRPORT" on the destination signs.

corktina

Stinicker wrote: »

Surely it is via intercity like that which would have seen the biggest demand from service. There should be at least a twice daily Cork - Mallow - Limerick - Ennis - Galway service. It is on services like this the demand is especially from tourists and students. It looks to me like another unmitigated Irish rail disaster and they'd have been as well off putting the money into a Limerick - Cork motorway when they aren't going to be bothered running a proper service. I also suppose they never even bothered to electrify the route either.

i dont know about that...you would have thought the Kerry trains would be 14 coaches and packed if that was the case.

Where did this notion of electrification come from all of a sudden? there is absolutely no chance ever of that...probably not even for Duclin to Cork...