[Article] Galway to Limerick rail route to run at €2.4m loss

JHMEG

By Paul Melia

Thursday March 25 2010

JUST 320 passengers a day will use the €110m Galway-Limerick train service which opens for business next week.

And it will take longer to travel by rail than by road, with 30 minutes added to the journey time of commuters who choose to go green and leave the car at home.

The Irish Independent has learnt Iarnrod Eireann expects to lose €2.4m a year running the service, with just 100,000 passengers expected to make the switch from road to rail in the first five years.

Even by 2015 when passenger numbers are expected to double to 640 people a day, trains will run at less than 40pc capacity, an independent review of the state rail company's business reveals.

The first stage of the controversial Western Rail Corridor, the Limerick to Galway service opens next Tuesday.

It will serve Galway, Athenry, Craughwell, Ardrahan, Gort, Ennis, Sixmilebridge and Limerick -- linking the cities in just under two hours.

However, the journey by road takes just 90 minutes and is expected to be even shorter when the Gort--Crusheen dual carriageway opens next year.

The faster journey time means Iarnrod Eireann will face an uphill struggle to convince people to change to trains.

"The key issue will be the ability of the service to generate patronage in the context of a much improved road network and increasing bus competition," the company's business case says.

"A major element of risk associated with this project relates to the impact of the Transport 21 Atlantic Road Corridor and increasing car ownership levels. The business case suggests that the justification for the project is on grounds of its contribution to regional development."

It has also emerged:

* Five trains will run in each direction per day, two fewer than promised when the line was being planned.
* The interval between trains was to have been no more than three hours. For some services, however, it is almost four.
* A day return will cost €20, but fares will meet only €1m of operating costs per year, meaning the taxpayer will have to subvent the line by €2.4m.
* The maximum speed on the line is less than 100kmh.

Approved

But Iarnrod Eireann said it was confident it could increase passenger numbers, and that the service would be developed over time.

Spokesman Barry Kenny added the project was prepared under Department of Transport guidelines for capital funding, and approved. "This will be a deliverable and reliable city-to-city journey time."

Fine Gael Transport spokes- man Fergus O'Dowd said it would be "difficult" to make the project work. "It seems a very expensive operation," he said.

There are two phases left to complete on the Western Rail Corridor. Phase two will link Athenry to Tuam, and phase three will reopen the Tuam to Claremorris line.

However, both are dependent on capital funding, and a decision has not been made on when the rest of the project will proceed.

Rail passengers lobby group, Rail Users Ireland, criticised the lack of services, saying that people would not use the rail network unless frequent services were provided.

- Paul Melia

Irish Independent

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/galway-to-limerick-rail-route-to-run-at-836424m-loss-2110771.html

corktina

Old news on C&T...surely the other phases are dead now...

dynamick

JHMEG wrote: »

Fine Gael Transport spokes- man Fergus O'Dowd said it would be "difficult" to make the project work. "It seems a very expensive operation," he said.

The same Fine Gael that wrote this in their last election manifesto:

FG manifesto 1997 wrote:

Western Rail Corridor
• Fine Gael will support the reopening of the line from Ennis to Sligo and will re-open the WRC as far as Claremorris, during our first term in Government and instigate a Railway Order to Coolooney.

Every party was sold on the WRC.

As corktina says, the data in the report is old news in this forum.

I noticed this on the DoT site yesterday:

Dempsey announces €14 million in 2010 for bus priority and park & ride in the regional cities of Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford

I imagine that from a public transport point of view this will be money far better spent with a positive ROI and no ongoing annual losses. It should have been done years ago but it's good to see it at last.
http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=186

JHMEG

May be old news on the forum, but some of it is new news to me!

In light of the Rosslare-Waterford line being up for closure because of the loss it's making I find it ironic that the planned loss on this line is bigger.

I also fail to see the point in the tax-payer subsidising services that seem to be pointless - ie, slower and more expensive than every other service.

Judgement Day

Just like CIE to inaugurate the new service on such a positive note. Is it any wonder that the line is going to lose money hand over fist with an attitude like this? :rolleyes:

dynamick

JHMEG wrote: »

I also fail to see the point in the tax-payer subsidising services that seem to be pointless - ie, slower and more expensive than every other service.

The report detailing how the project made no sense would carry hardly any passengers , would lose money by the million and would be considerably slower and less frequent and less popular than the bus was obtained under a freedom of information request and reported in the newspapers. You can read the report here. This is laughably the most viable section of the WRC.

The reason the project is being carried out despite it making as much sense as a chocolate teapot is that it has an effective lobby group, it obtained cross party support at local and central government level and in the eyes of the locals the project couldn't fail as it was being built with money from Dublin.

invinciblePRSTV

Judgement Day wrote: »

Just like CIE to inaugurate the new service on such a positive note. Is it any wonder that the line is going to lose money hand over fist with an attitude like this? :rolleyes:

It's the Irish Independent who ran the story, they are not Irish rail.

loyatemu

Indo wrote:

But Iarnrod Eireann said it was confident it could increase passenger numbers, and that the service would be developed over time.

like they've done with Limerick - Rosslare, eh?

Cookie_Monster

what a joke

DWCommuter

While I'm not a fan of the WRC, I'd be confident enough in saying that its not the only line subsidised. It was obvious since 2003 that a subsidy would be required and the recent stories on the proposed services don't strengthen its case either.

However to be fair to the line and many others, one would wonder if the infrastructure costs were taken out of the equation (like the Luas) would the pax numbers generate an operating profit or at least cover costs. I continue to be amazed at the different accounting techniques applied to IE/RPA/Luas/Veolia.

Judgement Day

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

It's the Irish Independent who ran the story, they are not Irish rail.

Who do you think supplied theIndo with the info regarding expected passenger loading/losses etc - West on Track?? :rolleyes:

munchkin_utd

DWCommuter wrote: »

While I'm not a fan of the WRC, I'd be confident enough in saying that its not the only line subsidised. It was obvious since 2003 that a subsidy would be required and the recent stories on the proposed services don't strengthen its case either.

However to be fair to the line and many others, one would wonder if the infrastructure costs were taken out of the equation (like the Luas) would the pax numbers generate an operating profit or at least cover costs. I continue to be amazed at the different accounting techniques applied to IE/RPA/Luas/Veolia.

Its as transparant and mud.

in an ideal world it should be made know publicly what each line costs in terms of infrastructure upkeep and separately in terms of subsidy for services on the line.

If anything that would make railways seem (maybe) less expensive, as the main cost of a railway is that it has its own "roads" and bridges to maintain, and the subsidy for services themselves mightnt be that bad(???)

I still maintain that rail and bus should work in tandem as a system, rather than compete with each other in a way that only leads to achieving an even higher need for government (rail) subsidies.

dynamick

DWCommuter wrote: »

However to be fair to the line and many others, one would wonder if the infrastructure costs were taken out of the equation (like the Luas) would the pax numbers generate an operating profit or at least cover costs. I continue to be amazed at the different accounting techniques applied to IE/RPA/Luas/Veolia.

The projects were measured in a similar way. The projected loss is an operational loss and is in adition to the capital cost.

WRC ennis-athenry
capital cost 106m
pax 100K-200K
fare €5
revenue: €500k-1m
annual operational cost €3m
op loss: 2m-2.5m
repayment on capital* = 6.8m
total subsidy per passenger journey: €45-90


luas
capital cost 775m
pax: 27.4m
fare €1.46
revenue: 42.2m
annual operational cost 40m
op profit: 2.2m
repayment on capital* = 50m
total subsidy per passenger journey: €1.75

* over 30yrs @5%

datrias

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Its as transparant and mud.


I still maintain that rail and bus should work in tandem as a system, rather than compete with each other in a way that only leads to achieving an even higher need for government (rail) subsidies.

Agreed.

Surely this type of service does not provide a level playing field for all operators.

KevR

dynamick wrote: »

I noticed this on the DoT site yesterday:

Dempsey announces €14 million in 2010 for bus priority and park & ride in the regional cities of Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford

I imagine that from a public transport point of view this will be money far better spent with a positive ROI and no ongoing annual losses. It should have been done years ago but it's good to see it at last.
http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=186

It really depends on how you look at it. The long standing plans to upgrade the Seamus Quirke/Bishop O'Donnell road in Galway to Dual Carriageway have been hi-jacked by bus lane plans. The upgrade is supposed happen this year but there will be zero benefit to the majority of people who use this road because they are putting in bus lanes instead of extra lanes for all traffic.

Putting in bus lanes on the SQ/BOD road would be money well spent if there was a decent bus service running along this road.
However, buses towards the City Centre from Rahoon and Knocknacarra only use a small section of this road so there will be a long stretch of bus lane Eastbound with zero buses per day using it!!! I'm not aware of any plans to by Bus Eireann or City Direct to alter their routes to utilise the full bus lane..

I'm not against bus lanes at all but Galway has aweful traffic problems and some people seem to think throwing a few bus lanes in completely random places will solve the traffic nightmare. It's a crazy waste of money. The money could be much better spent.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I still maintain that rail and bus should work in tandem as a system, rather than compete with each other in a way that only leads to achieving an even higher need for government (rail) subsidies.

I can't believe the WRC is opening and there is still no station in Oranmore. Seems like a no brainer to me:

KevR wrote:

Oranmore station with a Park and Ride.


A totally seperate Bus Park and Ride has been mooted for Oranmore - I think this would be a huge mistake.

• There will be 12 trains each way everyday going through Oranmore station.
• Galway City commuter traffic from the M6 and N18 has to pass Oranmore (in future it will be M6/M17/M18; projections of 26,000 each way/52,000 total daily!).

Build an integrated Bus & Rail Park and Ride at Oranmore. There would trains going to Galway City Centre anyway (it's not like they'll need to put on extra trains) and they could have some buses going to the industrial estates on the East Side.

The buses would have to be properly timetabled to meet commuter demand and to make interchanging with trains easy.

Ticketing would be entirely integrated - for example you could get the train from Athenry to Oranmore and then change onto a bus in Oranmore with a single ticket.

For special events, such as big matches at Pearse Stadium (where there is absolutely no parking available, the Park and Ride and buses could be used for getting people to/from the stadium. Buses could be sent to the racecourse during race week and there would be no need for the Christmas P&R at the racecourse.

I think between the towns of Oranmore, Athenry (both 12 trains each way), Craughwell, Gort (both 5 trains each way) and Ballinasloe (7 trains each way) and people parking in Oranmore, IE could get decent numbers of commuters on their trains and buses with an integrated service.

They should forget about trying attract long distance Galway-Limerick passengers; the train can't compete with buses and cars. Focus on commuter passengers at both ends.

munchkin_utd

KevR wrote: »

They should forget about trying attract long distance Galway-Limerick passengers; the train can't compete with buses and cars. Focus on commuter passengers at both ends.

Quite possibly thats the minimum they should be attempting, which would mean significant park and rides at the commuter rail stations at an affordable cost.

They should also add a stop at Renmore strand to allow the 1000s of GMIT students and 1000s of people working in Mervue access to commuter/ mainline rail without the need to go to town and come back out again
(probably needing integration with city bus service to bring people to the industrial estates but sure aren't Bus Eireann and Irish rail the same company so that wont be a problem, ahem.)

KevR

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Quite possibly thats the minimum they should be attempting, which would mean significant park and rides at the commuter rail stations at an affordable cost.

They should also add a stop at Renmore strand to allow the 1000s of GMIT students and 1000s of people working in Mervue access to commuter/ mainline rail without the need to go to town and come back out again
(probably needing integration with city bus service to bring people to the industrial estates but sure aren't Bus Eireann and Irish rail the same company so that wont be a problem, ahem.)

Agreed.

I personally would have the integrated Oranmore Rail and Bus Park and Ride as my immediate priority.

Renmore station and integration of city bus services in that area along with double tracking Galway-Athenry as medium term priorities.

Forget about the WRC going to Claremorriss.

dynamick

Improving commuter transport in Galway and Limerick should have been the priority. A few hundred people will want to travel between Galway and Limerick on any given day but tens of thousands will need to get to work or education each day. You do not build a train to carry a few hundred people a day and you do not prioritise the needs of the many over the needs of the few even if 4 bishops advise that you do.

invinciblePRSTV

Judgement Day wrote: »

Who do you think supplied theIndo with the info regarding expected passenger loading/losses etc - West on Track?? :rolleyes:

So you're saying that IR should keep the info private then, is that right?

dynamick wrote: »

Improving commuter transport in Galway and Limerick should have been the priority. A few hundred people will want to travel between Galway and Limerick on any given day but tens of thousands will need to get to work or education each day. You do not build a train to carry a few hundred people a day and you do not prioritise the needs of the many over the needs of the few even if 4 bishops advise that you do.

100 million would have paid for a whole bunch of QBCs in Galway & Limerick, this would have done far more for PT in those places then the WRC ever will

DWCommuter

dynamick wrote: »

The projects were measured in a similar way. The projected loss is an operational loss and is in adition to the capital cost.

WRC ennis-athenry
capital cost 106m
pax 100K-200K
fare €5
revenue: €500k-1m
annual operational cost €3m
op loss: 2m-2.5m
repayment on capital* = 6.8m
total subsidy per passenger journey: €45-90


luas
capital cost 775m
pax: 27.4m
fare €1.46
revenue: 42.2m
annual operational cost 40m
op profit: 2.2m
repayment on capital* = 50m
total subsidy per passenger journey: €1.75

* over 30yrs @5%

Apologies, I didn't articulate myself correctly. Im not talking about construction costs.

What Im trying to say is that Luas operators, Veolia, don't appear to carry the costs of maintaing the infrastructure for Luas. The RPA do. Where as Irish Rail have to account for maintaing their infrastructure. So in essence Luas can make a profit while its a lot harder for IR to do it.

Im open to correction on this.

dowlingm

DWCommuter wrote: »

However to be fair to the line and many others, one would wonder if the infrastructure costs were taken out of the equation (like the Luas) would the pax numbers generate an operating profit or at least cover costs. I continue to be amazed at the different accounting techniques applied to IE/RPA/Luas/Veolia.

This is why Ireland needs to conform to the relevant EU directive which it is currently derogating from and separate track and infrastructure. At the present time it's as if Aer Rianta and Aer Lingus were the same company, with no idea how much was being charged to Aer Lingus in landing fees.

The critical point is this - when BE doesn't want to run Expressway from point A to point B any more, it doesn't get to close the road before Aircoach or Citylink can apply to run the route. We can talk about other operators running scheduled trains on Irish rails all we like but until the network operations are transferred to a neutral company (in State ownership) no-one will seriously apply to do so.

DWCommuter

dowlingm wrote: »

This is why Ireland needs to conform to the relevant EU directive which it is currently derogating from and separate track and infrastructure. At the present time it's as if Aer Rianta and Aer Lingus were the same company, with no idea how much was being charged to Aer Lingus in landing fees.

The critical point is this - when BE doesn't want to run Expressway from point A to point B any more, it doesn't get to close the road before Aircoach or Citylink can apply to run the route. We can talk about other operators running scheduled trains on Irish rails all we like but until the network operations are transferred to a neutral company (in State ownership) no-one will seriously apply to do so.

Indeed.

Ive always been in favour of seperating the service and infrastructural aspects of our rail network. But I'm still curious about the Luas set up. Is it correct that Veolia run the service while the state picks up the tab for maintaining the infrastructure?

KevR

Galway City Council are now going to look into a Park and Ride at Doughiska. :rolleyes: :mad:

So we will have:

• An under-used Galway-Limerick rail service because there is no desire to tap into the commuter market at either end.
• A standalone Bus P&R in Doughiska which will not get much use. Bear in mind there are huge levels of employment in the vicinity of Doughiska (Parkmore, Ballybrit and Ballybane industrial estates). If someone has battled their way as far as Doughiska in the traffic they are not going to pay to use a P&R for the last kilometre or two of their journey.
• Possibly even another standalone Bus P&R at Oranmore.
• A disjointed/unreliable/infrequent city bus service.
• No Railway station or Rail P&R at Oranmore and no station at Renmore.
• A few bus lanes in random places which don't have an adequate service running on them.

In roughly 3 years there will be 26,000 cars passing Oranmore in each direction (52,000 total) on the M6 everyday. 12 trains will be running through the Oranmore area in each direction everyday; but it looks like there will be no station and no proper P&R....

A station in the Oranmore area would be within walking distance the Oranmore Business Park which is pretty big/busy. It would be impossible for a train station to not be walking distance - if it's far from the business park, it's too far from the town!

The trains will be useful for people going to Galway City Centre. So for those going to the industrial estates on the East Side, there should be buses provided. Integrated ticketing and proper timetabling to allow easy interchanging would be essential.

The development plan of Oranmore town should involve curtailment of the town expanding to the South. Future development should be to the North of the town near the railway station. Oranmore could become a hugely attractive place to set up a business/industry or to live in - near the M6, complete avoidance of Galway City traffic, a train station giving easy access to Galway City Centre, reliable buses to East Galway industrial estates.

Judgement Day

KevR - agree with a lot of your post but too much joined up thinking is required. I still can't believe that Oranmore station hasn't been reopened - there again actually I can! :rolleyes:

JHMEG

Judgement Day wrote: »

KevR - agree with a lot of your post but too much joined up thinking is required. I still can't believe that Oranmore station hasn't been reopened - there again actually I can! :rolleyes:

ColdChon have a platform in their depot in Oranmore, yet send up to 20 lorries a day to Dublin port to collect bitumen etc. I don't blame ColdChon - they're doing it for the commercially right reasons.

Ham'nd'egger

DWCommuter wrote: »

Indeed.

Ive always been in favour of seperating the service and infrastructural aspects of our rail network. But I'm still curious about the Luas set up. Is it correct that Veolia run the service while the state picks up the tab for maintaining the infrastructure?

This is my understanding of the arrangement. Veolia just run the trams and network; the RPA have to incur the costs in running it and that. It sure will be fun in about 10 years when track work etc need to be replaced:rolleyes:

KevR

Correction, there will be 14(!) trains passing through the stationless Oranmore every weekday. I said 12 in my post yesterday.

FlameoftheWest

The good old Indo, putting this stuff out there when the line is already built after years of issuing WoT/Anorak Press Releases as indisputable fact, while ignoring anyone who stated what Paul Melia has written below. Such journalistic and editorial integrity. The facts always come before potentially damaging their sales West of the Shannon... Yep, that the "Independent" alright!

JHMEG wrote: »

By Paul Melia

Thursday March 25 2010

JUST 320 passengers a day will use the €110m Galway-Limerick train service which opens for business next week.

And it will take longer to travel by rail than by road, with 30 minutes added to the journey time of commuters who choose to go green and leave the car at home.

The Irish Independent has learnt Iarnrod Eireann expects to lose €2.4m a year running the service, with just 100,000 passengers expected to make the switch from road to rail in the first five years.

Even by 2015 when passenger numbers are expected to double to 640 people a day, trains will run at less than 40pc capacity, an independent review of the state rail company's business reveals.

The first stage of the controversial Western Rail Corridor, the Limerick to Galway service opens next Tuesday.

It will serve Galway, Athenry, Craughwell, Ardrahan, Gort, Ennis, Sixmilebridge and Limerick -- linking the cities in just under two hours.

However, the journey by road takes just 90 minutes and is expected to be even shorter when the Gort--Crusheen dual carriageway opens next year.

The faster journey time means Iarnrod Eireann will face an uphill struggle to convince people to change to trains.

"The key issue will be the ability of the service to generate patronage in the context of a much improved road network and increasing bus competition," the company's business case says.

"A major element of risk associated with this project relates to the impact of the Transport 21 Atlantic Road Corridor and increasing car ownership levels. The business case suggests that the justification for the project is on grounds of its contribution to regional development."

It has also emerged:

* Five trains will run in each direction per day, two fewer than promised when the line was being planned.
* The interval between trains was to have been no more than three hours. For some services, however, it is almost four.
* A day return will cost €20, but fares will meet only €1m of operating costs per year, meaning the taxpayer will have to subvent the line by €2.4m.
* The maximum speed on the line is less than 100kmh.

Approved

But Iarnrod Eireann said it was confident it could increase passenger numbers, and that the service would be developed over time.

Spokesman Barry Kenny added the project was prepared under Department of Transport guidelines for capital funding, and approved. "This will be a deliverable and reliable city-to-city journey time."

Fine Gael Transport spokes- man Fergus O'Dowd said it would be "difficult" to make the project work. "It seems a very expensive operation," he said.

There are two phases left to complete on the Western Rail Corridor. Phase two will link Athenry to Tuam, and phase three will reopen the Tuam to Claremorris line.

However, both are dependent on capital funding, and a decision has not been made on when the rest of the project will proceed.

Rail passengers lobby group, Rail Users Ireland, criticised the lack of services, saying that people would not use the rail network unless frequent services were provided.

- Paul Melia

Irish Independent

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/galway-to-limerick-rail-route-to-run-at-836424m-loss-2110771.html

FlameoftheWest

KevR wrote: »

I personally would have the integrated Oranmore Rail and Bus Park and Ride as my immediate priority.
.

This is just the typical anti-west...

Seriously, you are making too much sense. Your solution fails on the following counts:

A) No Mayo Priest Has a Improved Chance of Sainthood.
Nobody in Hemel Hempstead Would be Excited by this.

FlameoftheWest

KevR wrote: »

Correction, there will be 14(!) trains passing through the stationless Oranmore every weekday. I said 12 in my post yesterday.

Sickening isn't it - one of the largest commuting towns in the West of Ireland with a workable commuter potential and it is ignored completely and especially by the West on Track shower and their small army of Ryanaired Fruitcakes.

wild handlin

Remember - that ALL railway lines in Ireland recieve a subsidy from the Govt. not just the "less used lines".

It appears to me that some posters in the past seem to have thought that the DART (for example) is not subsidised.

Prove me wrong, but every journey taken in Ireland run by IE is subsidised, and it's not just the "West Rail Corridor".

Personally I think it's a disgrace the line speed which IE have set, the rubbish rolling stock it's putting on the line - and the COMPLETE lack of publicity on the opening of the line. The timetable and journey times are beyond a joke, and shows just how interested IE are in operating the line.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out it's the same standard of track, and same standard of enginering which has gone into the WRC as there has been on the Dublin - Cork mainline, regarding track, signalling etc. 50mph for much of thw way is utterly laughable.

IF and I say the word if, the line does get built from Atherny - Tuam - Claremorris and the freight trains currently running from the West = South east use the line, then surely the line will make up some of the "lost revinue" from "no-one using the line" except train spotters. Remember, in the IE annunal report freight made up 1.3% of trains running during the past year, yet made 10% of the revinue!! I say build the line from Atherny - Claremorris and grow the existing freight traffic and use the line predominatly for freight.

Also, I note here that many folks seem to be saying that "most of the people using the line will be UK train spotters for the first day or two".
Is there any evidence to back up this claim, I sometimes take a look at an "Irish Railway Enthusiast" forum (no it's not IRN) which has a large percentage of UK trainspotters on it. And I can tell you, virtually no-one really cares about the line to the extent that they will be on the first train on the line opening!!
Infact, if anything it will only be a handful of Irish spotters who will be out by my reconing.

Comments, thoughts?

wild handlin

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

Sickening isn't it - one of the largest commuting towns in the West of Ireland with a workable commuter potential and it is ignored completely and especially by the West on Track shower and their small army of Ryanaired Fruitcakes.

What about Tuam!?

DWCommuter

wild handlin wrote: »

What about Tuam!?

What about it? The point being made is that Oranmore is actually ON an operating railway where service frequency is being ramped up.

Judgement Day

Interesting point I just noticed on IRN. IE are so 'enthusiastic' about the WRC that on the first day of operation they have not bothered to offer FREE travel - unlike on the first day of the Midleton re-opening. :rolleyes:

DWCommuter

wild handlin wrote: »

Personally I think it's a disgrace the line speed which IE have set, the rubbish rolling stock it's putting on the line - and the COMPLETE lack of publicity on the opening of the line. The timetable and journey times are beyond a joke, and shows just how interested IE are in operating the line.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out it's the same standard of track, and same standard of enginering which has gone into the WRC as there has been on the Dublin - Cork mainline, regarding track, signalling etc. 50mph for much of thw way is utterly laughable.

Regardless of the type of track or signalling, the very nature of the line makes it impossible to offer higher speeds. It was poorly built in the first place all those years ago. No amount of window dressing can make it better.

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

Interesting point I just noticed on IRN. IE are so 'enthusiastic' about the WRC that on the first day of operation they have not bothered to offer FREE travel - unlike on the first day of the Midleton re-opening. :rolleyes:

Like with like JD.;)

Judgement Day

DWCommuter wrote: »

Like with like JD.;)

Well, given what the scale of the losses are likely to be on the WRC I wouldn't have thought that a FREE day would make much difference?

dowlingm

wild handlin wrote: »

Remember - that ALL railway lines in Ireland recieve a subsidy from the Govt. not just the "less used lines".

Given the manner in which rail is operated and funded, I think that might be a matter of opinion. Do you mean by train service or by kilometre of rail? If by kilometre of rail Drogheda-Connolly should be bringing in a ton of money, what with DART, Suburban, Enterprise and freight all over a mere two tracks.

Of course, separating this section of rail out from the network is a bit pointless but it goes to show that you can make a line out to be profitable or lossmaking depending on whether you account of system-wide overheads or not. IE executives won't reduce their salaries proportionate to the amount of rail they supervise, so sending a lifting train only reduces a fraction of the costs a line would normally be assigned.

dowlingm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Interesting point I just noticed on IRN. IE are so 'enthusiastic' about the WRC that on the first day of operation they have not bothered to offer FREE travel - unlike on the first day of the Midleton re-opening. :rolleyes:

That's because in Midleton they actually want to board the train whereas in the Wesht they just like to hear the toot of the horn as it goes by empty :D:D:D:D:D

monument

Will the train have any time advantage at any time of the week? Say, Fridays at peek times?

Last time I got a bus out of Galway (to Dublin), after missing the midday train, I regretted not waiting for the evening train. At least an hour before getting out of Galway on the bus, car journey time would have been the same or worse.

corktina

Don't forget the car also has a huge advantage in that it goes where you want to go, whereas with the train you have to get to it and from it...meaning the REAL time disadvantage is even bigger than 30 minutes....massively so I would say

monument

corktina wrote: »

Don't forget the car also has a huge advantage in that it goes where you want to go, whereas with the train you have to get to it and from it...meaning the REAL time disadvantage is even bigger than 30 minutes....massively so I would say

That would all depend on the journey. At one extrema you have somebody who lives within 10 mins of a station and is travelling to a destination close to another station. At another, both are far away from the stations.

Somewhere in between is the option of driving or getting a lift to the station near to where you live and, say, getting the train in and out of Galway.

So, words like massively start to apply to less and less journeys.

wild handlin

dowlingm wrote: »

Given the manner in which rail is operated and funded, I think that might be a matter of opinion. Do you mean by train service or by kilometre of rail? If by kilometre of rail Drogheda-Connolly should be bringing in a ton of money, what with DART, Suburban, Enterprise and freight all over a mere two tracks.


I mean in terms of each journey dowlingm. It's my understanding (unless someone can correct me?) that basically IE are given a lump sum each year from the Govt. to cover maintence, track renewals, etc, of which a certain percentage goes on each ticket price. For example, Dublin - Cork is what? €60 return?? If it wasn't subsidised then I recon it would be €90+.

Regarding the use of passengers using the Drogheda - Connolly line for example, I'm almost sure no matter what profit is collected from wherever, but it's put into the entire network, rather than 1 line.
Also - railfreight is a sector in it's own right as I understand, and any profits which are gained in running the flow stay in the sector, rather than going into the "pot" (unless anyone can correct me?) as freight by rail aint subsidised in this country. And anyway, as we all know how keen IE are to "develop" railfreight in this country very little of the traffic remains.

wild handlin

DWCommuter wrote: »

Regardless of the type of track or signalling, the very nature of the line makes it impossible to offer higher speeds. It was poorly built in the first place all those years ago. No amount of window dressing can make it better.

I wouldn't agree fully in what you say DWCommuter.

There are streches of the line where 60mph+ are capible, and with sufficent rolling stock those speeds could be easily achieved rather than the clapped out rubbish which is going on the line.

Also, you could say the same for the Ballybrohpy - Limerick line, which has had major track work doing (new rails and sleepers) from near Nenagh - Killonan Jctn, yet it's only (or was last time I was down there) 25mph!! Considering the line used to be 60mph in the days of jointed track says alot for IE in terms of interest of the line.
It takes the Nenagh Commuter service 62 mins to travel from Nenagh - Limerick. I could walk faster - (well, not literally, but you get my point...I hope!)

wild handlin

DWCommuter wrote: »

What about it? The point being made is that Oranmore is actually ON an operating railway where service frequency is being ramped up.

Then why is there nothing been done about it? I thought the plan was to have a P&R complete with Station come the opening of the WRC?

DWCommuter

wild handlin wrote: »

I thought the plan was to have a P&R complete with Station come the opening of the WRC?

So did I.

DWCommuter

wild handlin wrote: »

I wouldn't agree fully in what you say DWCommuter.

There are streches of the line where 60mph+ are capible, and with sufficent rolling stock those speeds could be easily achieved rather than the clapped out rubbish which is going on the line.

Also, you could say the same for the Ballybrohpy - Limerick line, which has had major track work doing (new rails and sleepers) from near Nenagh - Killonan Jctn, yet it's only (or was last time I was down there) 25mph!! Considering the line used to be 60mph in the days of jointed track says alot for IE in terms of interest of the line.
It takes the Nenagh Commuter service 62 mins to travel from Nenagh - Limerick. I could walk faster - (well, not literally, but you get my point...I hope!)

Re the WRC - I thought it had 70mph running where possible, but the majority of it was 50 mph. I've seen old timetables for it and know the line backwards. Even in its hey day 50 mph was lucky. Some of the curves and gradients are frightening.

I'd agree with you on the ballybrophy example though. Definite dirty campaign by IE down there. But that line was a much better build quality than the WRC.

As for the clapped out rubbish of rolling stock, well I wouldn't go that far, but its certainly not suitable for the journey time. Unfortunately this is the kind of residue that will linger when a rail project is built on the basis of political pressure imposed by a campaign that was based on the outdated whims of an old priest and bandwagoned by bored wannabe media types. The guys in WOT remind me of those lads that love MC'ing pub quizzes. They are big fish in a miniscule pond and have no real knowledge of what they are doing or its consequences.

WOT get a lot of credit here for being a very successful lobby. But their ignorance will ultimately cause more problems because the have fooled the west of Ireland by portraying this poor railway line as the panacea to social and economic development. They drove their campaign on the basis of getting the line reopened and with no regard for service standards. It can't even offer a train from Galway after half 5 in the evening. When people complain, WOT will blame IE, but that would be disingenuous, because if you can hold a Government to ransom over a lousy few miles of railway, then you should have enough cop on to make sure that the proposed operation of the line is in a manner that meets 21st century needs - and quite frankly this rail line isn't.

JHMEG

wild handlin wrote: »

Remember - that ALL railway lines in Ireland recieve a subsidy from the Govt. not just the "less used lines".

This must be one of the few that is slower than all the alternatives, and probably more expensive too.

I've no problem with subsidising genuine public services, ie where they greatly improve the journey times and therefore quality of life (eg DART), or where they provide a service that's out of hours to shift workers, etc.

I do have a problem using my money to subsidise white elephants tho.

wild handlin

DWCommuter wrote: »

Re the WRC - I thought it had 70mph running where possible, but the majority of it was 50 mph. I've seen old timetables for it and know the line backwards. Even in its hey day 50 mph was lucky. Some of the curves and gradients are frightening.

I'd agree with you on the ballybrophy example though. Definite dirty campaign by IE down there. But that line was a much better build quality than the WRC.

As for the clapped out rubbish of rolling stock, well I wouldn't go that far, but its certainly not suitable for the journey time. Unfortunately this is the kind of residue that will linger when a rail project is built on the basis of political pressure imposed by a campaign that was based on the outdated whims of an old priest and bandwagoned by bored wannabe media types. The guys in WOT remind me of those lads that love MC'ing pub quizzes. They are big fish in a miniscule pond and have no real knowledge of what they are doing or its consequences.

I agree with what you are saying DWCommuter, and yes, there are some serious curves and gradients on the line from Limerick - Atherny, but with todays modern technology and infrastructer surely it could be upped to 60mph at least, with restrictions on the sharp curves.

Regarding the rolling stock - I presume it's the same stock which will be used on the Limerick - Waterford line. If so it is utter trash in my opinion!! Certainly not suitable for anything other than short commuter journeys. You have lots and lots of Mk3's parked up in Heuston - why not put 2 rakes of them out on the line - or better still, what about a 2x sets of 22000s units. Mind you - when they find it hard to put a set on the Wexford line, what hope is there of 1 being found spare for the WRC!! :rolleyes:

I'll probably be shot down in flames for saying this but if what is predicted (e.g low passenger numbers) come to fruition, I would say that it's not the end of the world. The line (once complete to Claremorris) could be used for freight traffic to the South East - and hopefully grow the existing service that is currently there, and entice new customers to using the freight service. What is really needed is a private freight operator over here paying IE for the use of the track - and then providing their own locos/stock/drivers etc for the service. That way the line would be getting revinue of some sort if passenger numbers are anticipated to being so low. (Which personally I hope not).

Although, thinking about it from my opinion. Ennis - Atherny's potential will only be realised when the Atherny - Tuam - Claremorris section opens, thus having a thru line (hopefully better speeds Atherny - Tuam - Claremorris than on Atherny - Ennis).

Also there should in theory be a very healthy commuter traffic running from Tuam - Galway in the mornings and evenings.

DWCommuter

wild handlin wrote: »

I agree with what you are saying DWCommuter, and yes, there are some serious curves and gradients on the line from Limerick - Atherny, but with todays modern technology and infrastructer surely it could be upped to 60mph at least, with restrictions on the sharp curves.

Regarding the rolling stock - I presume it's the same stock which will be used on the Limerick - Waterford line. If so it is utter trash in my opinion!! Certainly not suitable for anything other than short commuter journeys. You have lots and lots of Mk3's parked up in Heuston - why not put 2 rakes of them out on the line - or better still, what about a 2x sets of 22000s units. Mind you - when they find it hard to put a set on the Wexford line, what hope is there of 1 being found spare for the WRC!! :rolleyes:

I'll probably be shot down in flames for saying this but if what is predicted (e.g low passenger numbers) come to fruition, I would say that it's not the end of the world. The line (once complete to Claremorris) could be used for freight traffic to the South East - and hopefully grow the existing service that is currently there, and entice new customers to using the freight service. What is really needed is a private freight operator over here paying IE for the use of the track - and then providing their own locos/stock/drivers etc for the service. That way the line would be getting revinue of some sort if passenger numbers are anticipated to being so low. (Which personally I hope not).

Although, thinking about it from my opinion. Ennis - Atherny's potential will only be realised when the Atherny - Tuam - Claremorris section opens, thus having a thru line (hopefully better speeds Atherny - Tuam - Claremorris than on Atherny - Ennis).

Also there should in theory be a very healthy commuter traffic running from Tuam - Galway in the mornings and evenings.

Freight? Can't see it happening myself.

As for extending to Claremorris, well the population densities get even smaller and the line speeds do not improve at all. As for a "thru line", the whole Intercity mentality of Ennis-Athenry flies out the window when you add in Athenry - Claremorris. People may want this line open, but it looks like they want various services operating on it and all in a part of the country that has absolutely no population base to justify it.

As a piece of infrastructure, its useless in the 21st century. The only possible connection that has any kind of chance is Limerick - Galway but realistically it required a spanking new line as the existing one was never designed or built as an intercity route. The rest of the WRC is a joke and only has merit in a country that is awash with money. We aren't and actually never were.

Conclusion after years of debate: The WRC has no role in 21st century Ireland. Rail is struggling as it is between our larger cities. Roads can and will beat it hands down. It will never be extended north of Athenry and I reckon Ennis - Athenry will close within the lifetime of many posters on this forum.

Carawaystick

DWCommuter wrote: »

I reckon Ennis - Athenry will close within the lifetime of many posters on this forum.

Ah come on, as a member of the zoo I let your suggestion slide about that but there's none of us that old on here. the line'll close *long* before any of us is dancin with the reaper.

when ff get back into power they'll probably close it to annoy inda and eamonn.