Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

cgcsb

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Sorry, Victor. Does St. Stephen's Green equal Dublin 2?

I don't live in Dublin at the moment, but anytime I visit the city I see several places which are consistently a lot busier than St. Stephen's Green. In fact, the two places which Monument mentioned (Colllege Green and O'Connell Street) are always busier than St. Stephen's Green. I think it is legitimate to ask why Monument's locations, and in particular the other Dublin 2 location (College Green - also in D2, believe it or not) were not considered as potential interchange locations. I await the figures from the LUAS link-up with interest. Do you reckon St. Stephen's Green will be the busiest stop?

Two Reasons come to mind:

1)College Green and O'Connell Street would be unsuitable for the construction phase, the disruption to the existing city would be unacceptable. Stephen's Green offers a central location with some green space to temporarily disrupt at relatively low cost.

2)Locating a major transport hub on the much busier college green/O'Connell street access could easily make metro and DARTu a victim of their own success. The pedestrian flow at peak times is causing problems for other road users and the area in general is very crowded. Adding in a major underground stations with several access points will no doubt worsen that situation.

strassenwo!f

So College Green and O'Connell Street would be too busy.

This must be the reason why Times' Square and Piccaddilly Circus (among many others) are, alas, waiting to be connected to their underground networks.

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

So College Green and O'Connell Street would be too busy.

This must be the reason why Times' Square and Piccaddilly Circus (among many others) are, alas, waiting to be connected to their underground networks.

Are you simply trolling now or are you really this obtuse?

Times Square and Piccadilly Circus stations were both built more than a century ago.

Just have a think about that.

strassenwo!f

Yes, built over a century ago. Not sure about Times Square back then, but Piccaddilly Circus was certainly a very busy location at that time. Didn't stop London building an underground station there. Why should busyness stop Dublin?

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, built over a century ago, when they were both very busy locations. As they are now.

Built when it was much easier to these things - and objections and concerns were simply ignored by the city/state authorities and private developers alike.

And it's precisely because of the existence of the transit stations that make TS and PC exponentially busier today than when they were built.

As for Dublin TODAY, SSG/GS is just as busy as OCS and CG - but SSG/GS is at the heart of a much busier area than both.

The whole point of DU and MN intersecting at SSG is to bring mass transit to the single busiest location in the State - by putting half a dozen major transit stations on the OCS-CG-SSG and Heuston-SSG-Docklands axes.

If you take a 1km radius from O'Connell Bridge, the existing, stalled, Metro and Dart plans put the following stations within that zone.

Parnell Square - Metro/Luas Green
O'Connell Street/Marlborough St - Luas Green
O'Connell Bridge - Metro/Luas Red/Luas Green
College Green - Luas Green
Stephens Green - Luas Green/Metro/Dart
Wood Quay - Dart
Tara St Dart
Pearse - Dart interchange
Connolly Dart/Luas Red
Four Courts - Luas Red
Jervis - Luas Red
Abbey Street - Luas Red/Luas Green/Metro (OCB)
Busaras - Luas Red
George's Dock - Luas Red

That's a lot of transit stations and options in a 1km radius, is it not?

SSG was chosen as the site for southside interchange station because of its location in the heart of the D2 CBD while it also offers plenty of space for a large scale construction site with minimum disruption to the commercial activity in the area.

College Green was never going to be chosen for a major underground station because it's the historic heart of the south city centre. There is simply no way any such plan would have got past the objections to digging out a giant hole under CG. It's not an engineering problem - it's a political issue.

You keeping ignoring the obvious merits and advantages of SSG as an interchange station simply because you don't like the DU and MN plans. I cannot see any other reason for it - certainly none that relate to transportation or the commercial, economic and social development of the city.

strassenwo!f

Jack, you have come up with absolutely no evidence that St. Stephen's Green is a busier location than the two alternatives which Monument suggested, namely College Green and O'Connell Street. You say above that it is as busy as those two locations, and you seem to know a lot about these plans, so I am forced to conclude that my eyes deceive me when I visit Dublin.

I can well believe that the authorities shied away from building an interchange in either College Green or O'Connell Street because of the likely disruption. But then, they were originally planning to build metro stops in both locations before the RPA came up with their flawed plan to "save" money with the O'Connell Bridge idea.

It was thus originally considered possible to build metro stations at both College Green and O'Connell Street, so no obvious reason why it would not have been possible to build a metro/DART interchange there.

In essence, then, in the absence of any hard figures about passenger numbers, you are saying that the plan is to build a longer interconnector route in order to avoid disruption in the centre of the city.

handlemaster

What bus actually been built at the moment

dsmythy

Arguing over southside versus northside locations is purely based on the divide of a river. Take the river out and all it means is a city's focal point moving southwards. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with this.

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Jack, you have come up with absolutely no evidence that St. Stephen's Green is a busier location than the two alternatives which Monument suggested, namely College Green and O'Connell Street. You say above that it is as busy as those two locations, and you seem to know a lot about these plans, so I am forced to conclude that my eyes deceive me when I visit Dublin.

I can well believe that the authorities shied away from building an interchange in either College Green or O'Connell Street because of the likely disruption. But then, they were originally planning to build metro stops in both locations before the RPA came up with their flawed plan to "save" money with the O'Connell Bridge idea.

It was thus originally considered possible to build metro stations at both College Green and O'Connell Street, so no obvious reason why it would not have been possible to build a metro/DART interchange there.

In essence, then, in the absence of any hard figures about passenger numbers, you are saying that the plan is to build a longer interconnector route in order to avoid disruption in the centre of the city.

I don't need to produce evidence - I already have. It's in every major study on Dublin transportation over the last 50 years and I've cited all those reports here. The evidence you seek is there and in the business cases for Metro North and Dart Underground. They are all available - go and read them.

What I can give you though is 20 years of being in and around the Green several times a week at different times of the day. And it is always busy - especially that point where SSG, Grafton Street and King Street meet and where the Metro-Luas-Dart interchange is planned.

My wife has worked on SSG for the last 15 years. I leave her into work every morning and often pick her up in the evenings when she works late. Anytime I'm around that SSG/GS/KS area it is thronged with people - workers, shoppers, tourists, people out for a meal or a drink.

I'm here now typing this in a cafe off the top of Grafton Street. It's a wet Sunday afternoon in November and the area is busy - I've just had a good dander around to have a look before I posted this after reading your reply.

I was on SSG/GS, CG and OCS/Henry St yesterday and all three were extremely busy - I saw no difference in the numbers on any of the three areas.

As for the OCB stop instead of stops at OCS and CG, I've no doubt the RPA compromised on cost and political grounds. That's the nature of planning. But it's a good compromise because it will put people within 300m and a few minutes walk of both CG and the GPO.

The SSG stop is also less than 400m from CG and GPO is one Metro or three Luas stops away for those travelling into town by Dart.

That is excellent by international standards.

But you fundamentally fail to grasp the point of MN and DU and the SSG interchange - it is to serve the busy south city centre area with high capacity, high frequency rapid rail to put people where they demand to go on a daily basis.

Until you grasp that point, I fear you'll be posting the same obtuse nonsense over and over again - and eejits like me will keep responding to try and put you right, all to no avail!

It's just a pity we can't get on and build both Metro and Dart now - though I'm hopeful DartU will get the green light and funding post-2015.

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Jack, you have come up with absolutely no evidence that St. Stephen's Green is a busier location than the two alternatives which Monument suggested, namely College Green and O'Connell Street

Please stop putting this across as my suggestion.

Due to the built, spacing, historical, and traffic issues, there's no way I'd suggest College Green and O'Connell Street or O'Connell Bridge as interchange locations. Single stations are a quite a different story.

Banjoxed

Jack Noble wrote: »

I don't need to produce evidence - I already have. It's in every major study on Dublin transportation over the last 50 years and I've cited all those reports here. The evidence you seek is there and in the business cases for Metro North and Dart Underground. They are all available - go and read them.

What I can give you though is 20 years of being in and around the Green several times a week at different times of the day. And it is always busy - especially that point where SSG, Grafton Street and King Street meet and where the Metro-Luas-Dart interchange is planned.

My wife has worked on SSG for the last 15 years. I leave her into work every morning and often pick her up in the evenings when she works late. Anytime I'm around that SSG/GS/KS area it is thronged with people - workers, shoppers, tourists, people out for a meal or a drink.

I'm here now typing this in a cafe off the top of Grafton Street. It's a wet Sunday afternoon in November and the area is busy - I've just had a good dander around to have luck before I posted this after reading your reply.

I was on SSG/GS, CG and OCS/Henry St yesterday and all three were extremely busy - I saw no difference in the numbers on any of the three areas.

As for the OCB stop instead of stops at OCS and CG, I've no doubt the RPA compromised on cost and political grounds. That's the nature of planning. But it's a good compromise because it will put people within 300m and a few minutes walk of both CG and the GPO.

The SSG stop is also less than 400m from CG and GPO is one Metro or three Luas stops away for those travelling into town by Dart.

That is excellent by international standards.

But you fundamentally fail to grasp the point of MN and DU and the SSG interchange - it is to serve the busy south city centre area with high capacity, high frequency rapid rail to put people where they demand to go on a daily basis.

Until you grasp that point, I fear you'll be posting the same obtuse nonsense over and over again - and eejits like me will keep responding to try and put you right, all to no avail!

It's just a pity we can't get on and build both Metro and Dart now - though I'm hopeful DartU will get the green light and funding post-2015.

Don't forget the amount of opinion masquerading as fact over the years - the Luas project was delayed for years partly because of that.

Grandeeod

Wonderful to see the thread reinvigorated and based on absolutely nothing bar an apparently flimsy plan. I have no doubt that this could become a record breaking thread on Boards.ie:D

MN or DU will not be started or built within the next 20 years and the proof is somewhere in this thread if you care to look. I will not be showing you though.;)

strassenwo!f

monument wrote: »

Please stop putting this across as my suggestion.

Due to the built, spacing, historical, and traffic issues, there's no way I'd suggest College Green and O'Connell Street or O'Connell Bridge as interchange locations. Single stations are a quite a different story.

Sorry, Monument, I thought an interchange with the metro was implied in this post of yours:

monument wrote: »

If the east-west interconnector was shorter it would result in (a) a more expensive station in a location like College Green or at O'Connell Street or (b) less city centre stations.

If those stations were built as stand-alone stations, where else would this line interchange with the metro north line?

Anyway, I shall refrain from putting this across as your suggestion, forthwith.

strassenwo!f

Jack Noble wrote: »

But you fundamentally fail to grasp the point of MN and DU and the SSG interchange - it is to serve the busy south city centre area with high capacity, high frequency rapid rail to put people where they demand to go on a daily basis.

Until you grasp that point, I fear you'll be posting the same obtuse nonsense over and over again - and eejits like me will keep responding to try and put you right, all to no avail!

The Irish Rail presentation to ABP about their interconnector route included an analysis of two potential locations for an interchange with the metro. One was of Tara Street and the other was of St. Stephen's Green.

The Tara Street option was rejected, in part because if the interconnector was built through there, then it could not be built through St. Stephen's Green.

You, apparently, are privy to information that locations like College Green and O'Connell Street were examined, and were rejected on political grounds. This information was not made publicly available to ABP in the Irish Rail presentation. It certainly was not, and has never been, made generally available to members of the public.

Still you feel that questions about the location of this interchange represent 'obtuse nonsense'. The moderators here have certainly stepped in for less.

monument

It's this simple: If you're unwilling or unable to see a ton of offices, government buildings, cafés, pubs and restaurants around the St Stephens Green, then it's likely you'll also be unable to spot clear and obvious problems with the two locations you are suggesting.

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The Irish Rail presentation to ABP about their interconnector route included an analysis of two potential locations for an interchange with the metro. One was of Tara Street and the other was of St. Stephen's Green.

The Tara Street option was rejected, in part because if the interconnector was built through there, then it could not be built through St. Stephen's Green.

You, apparently, are privy to information that locations like College Green and O'Connell Street were examined, and were rejected on political grounds. This information was not made publicly available to ABP in the Irish Rail presentation. It certainly was not, and has never been, made generally available to members of the public.

Still you feel that questions about the location of this interchange represent 'obtuse nonsense'. The moderators here have certainly stepped in for less.

College Green has been suggested as a location for a major public transport interchange several times over the years but in the end it has always been ruled out because digging an enormous hole in CG simply will not be allowed because of the historic buildings in the area.

That is a political decision - not political in that it was made by politicians, although ultimately I doubt any ministers would ever approve such a move, but political in the sense that those behind the projects knew it would be impossible to overcome public opinion which would be overwhelmingly against digging up the historic heart of the city containing two of the most important 18th Century buildings in the State, Trinity College and the former Grattan Parliament.

The fact the College Green stop on Metro North was replaced by the OCB stop is testament to that thinking.

But once again, you miss the point - by a spectacularly wide margin.

You keep asking why CG was not chosen rather than looking at why SSG was selected. Myself and other posters have explained that to you but you blatantly ignore what we have said.

Earlier in the thread, you said this:

Originally Posted by strassenwo!f
You also mention a large office district. This can't be St. Stephen's Green itself, as most of that is a park.

To which Victor replied:

Stop being so facetious. The vast majority of Dublin 2 is commercial, much more so than surrounding areas.

Moderator

I don't think you were being facetious, I think you actually believe SSG is nothing more than a park because you are completely ignoring what makes SSG - and particularly that point where SSG meets Grafton Street and where the Luas-Metro-Dart interchange is to be located - the epicentre of Dublin 2 and why it was selected for the major interchange.

As I said earlier, that alone puts the rest of your posts on the Metro and Dart projects in context.

And that context is this - you fail to grasp the most basic logic behind the projects, and the alignments and stop locations, that have been carefully chosen after decades of detailed studies and revisions based on the way the city has developed since the mid-1970s, the consequent population and economic growth, and the demand-driven public transport needs of the population.

Throughout your posts on various Metro and Dart threads you have failed to understand the fundamentals premises behind:

The Interconnector/Dart Underground
Metro North
Metro West
Luas BXD
The city centre stops on both MN and DU
The Mater stop on MN
The integrated system the projects will provide
The detailed work that has gone on to plan these projects based on the current and future needs of PT needs of the people of the city, suburbs and commuter towns, as well as vistors, both domestic and foreign.

You repeatedly state that certain options that you favour haven't been considered by IE, RPA, DTO, NTA, DCC, etc - when all the evidence from 50 years of study and planning is that all options have been considered, and reconsidered, and the most suitable for Dublin's needs have been selected by the authorities involved within the planning, engineering, financial and political parameters that exist in Dublin and Ireland.

I would contend that the failure here is yours - a failure to understand, a failure to accept points made by others and failure to move beyond your own narrow, tunnel-vision view of how you believe things should be - rather than that of IE, RPA, DTO, NTA, etc.

In that context, describing your posts and arguments as 'obtuse nonsense' is being kind.

cgcsb

strassenwo!f wrote: »

So College Green and O'Connell Street would be too busy.

This must be the reason why Times' Square and Piccaddilly Circus (among many others) are, alas, waiting to be connected to their underground networks.

Both times square and picadilly were constructed a century ago. College Green and OCS will be connected to the underground network, they just won't have a major underground interchange, which would be difficult to construct

cgcsb

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, built over a century ago. Not sure about Times Square back then, but Piccaddilly Circus was certainly a very busy location at that time. Didn't stop London building an underground station there. Why should busyness stop Dublin?

because when picidilly circus was being dug up, the disruption caused resulted in chaos for months, we now have a more sensitive approach to the existing environment when it comes to construction projects.

strassenwo!f

monument wrote: »

It's this simple: If you're unwilling or unable to see a ton of offices, government buildings, cafés, pubs and restaurants around the St Stephens Green, then it's likely you'll also be unable to spot clear and obvious problems with the two locations you are suggesting.

No, no, Monument. I can see all of those things around St. Stephen's Green, but I can also see just as many of them (and more) around College Green and, perhaps to a lesser extent around O'Connell Street.

That's why I was asking why it should be necessary to build this interchange in St. Stephen's Green, necessitating a big southerly loop for the interconnector, rather than just building it straight through the middle.

It has now been explained to me that building it through the middle would cause disruption, and that appears to not be on. Other cities might be able to build underground stations, and indeed interchanges, in central, sensitive areas. Not, apparently, Dublin.

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

No, no, Monument. I can see all of those things around St. Stephen's Green, but I can also see just as many of them (and more) around College Green and, perhaps to a lesser extent around O'Connell Street.

That's why I was asking why it should be necessary to build this interchange in St. Stephen's Green, necessitating a big southerly loop for the interconnector, rather than just building it straight through the middle.

It has now been explained to me that building it through the middle would cause disruption, and that appears to not be on. Other cities might be able to build underground stations, and indeed interchanges, in central, sensitive areas. Not, apparently, Dublin.

That is only one consideration which you seem to take as the only consideration.

SSG was chosen because it's at the centre of the area where large numbers of people want to go because it contains large numbers of offices, retail area, restaurants, cafes and bars, tourist sites, the national parliament and a majority of government departments, a major university and several smallers colleges. There are also considerable residential clusters within a short walk of the site of the planned interchange on SSG.

College Green is 5 minutes walk from the SSG station - and will be two stops away on the Luas when BXD/Cross City is completed.

Those are the points you keep ignoring in your obsession to reinvent the wheel with regard to Metro North and Dart Underground.

maninasia

Grandeeod wrote: »

Wonderful to see the thread reinvigorated and based on absolutely nothing bar an apparently flimsy plan. I have no doubt that this could become a record breaking thread on Boards.ie:D

MN or DU will not be started or built within the next 20 years and the proof is somewhere in this thread if you care to look. I will not be showing you though.;)

The proof is, that having mentioned finance is the problem and where to get the money, twice, it's completely ignored and dismissed, and they'd rather go back to mapjerking about whether the Northside/Southside deserves a bigger station.

Enjoy your maps lads.

Jack Noble

maninasia wrote: »

The proof is, that having mentioned finance is the problem and where to get the money, twice, it's completely ignored and dismissed, and they'd rather go back to mapjerking about whether the Northside/Southside deserves a bigger station.

Enjoy your maps lads.

Finance is not the only problem but current lack of political will.

If the government really wanted to proceed with Metro or Dart or both, then the finance via long-term PPPs could be sourced alongside State resources and revenues raised on the back of the projects, eg planning levies and a guaranteed share of fare revenue.

However, the current govt has shown it is not interested in large scale infrastructure projects as it is concentrating on smaller local projects around the country and the maintenance of existing infrastructure. Also, current spending commitments have been prioritised over capital spending since FG-Lab came to power in Feb 2011 and that will remain the case for the next two years, at least.

That said, there is a quiet effort going on to progress Dart Underground in the next capital spending round post 2015/16 via exchequer funding, EU funds, and PPP given the more favourable market sentiment towards Ireland.

But ultimately it's down to an improved econonic environment in 2015/16 and Cabinet approval - and there is no guarantee of either, never mind both.

Victor

From this document: www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/population/profile/workpoptowns.pdf - there doesn't seem to be a 2011 equivalent. Ther ewill have been changes in the north and south docklands, at East Point and Heuston. I've marked SSG in green.

strassenwo!f

Jack Noble wrote: »

College Green has been suggested as a location for a major public transport interchange several times over the years but in the end it has always been ruled out because digging an enormous hole in CG simply will not be allowed because of the historic buildings in the area.

That is a political decision - not political in that it was made by politicians, although ultimately I doubt any ministers would ever approve such a move, but political in the sense that those behind the projects knew it would be impossible to overcome public opinion which would be overwhelmingly against digging up the historic heart of the city containing two of the most important 18th Century buildings in the State, Trinity College and the former Grattan Parliament.

OK, so the reason that College Green was ruled out was that there would be too much disruption and, it would be too sensitive, despite the experiences in other cities with nice architecture (Rome, Paris, London, etc). I've got it, and I fully understand that there probably isn't the expertise in Dublin to deal with a situation like this, yet.

Jack Noble wrote: »

The fact the College Green stop on Metro North was replaced by the OCB stop is testament to that thinking.

But once again, you miss the point - by a spectacularly wide margin.

Well, Jack, in fairness, the only reason which the RPA ever actually produced for coming up with the OCB idea was cost. If there were other reasons, you can't really blame me if the RPA are bull****ting the public about their reasons for taking a particular course of action.

Jack Noble wrote: »

You keep asking why CG was not chosen rather than looking at why SSG was selected. Myself and other posters have explained that to you but you blatantly ignore what we have said.

Jack, I follow closely what you and other posters say. As I said to Monument above, I am aware of what great things there are in St. Stephen's Green. I am also aware that I see those same things in or around College Green and (probably to a lesser extent) O'Connell Street. Offices, Government Departments, pubs, restaurants, cafes, etc.

The interconnector can't serve everywhere in the city. My question was why it is necessary to spend a lot more money building a longer route to serve the offices, shops, cafes, bars, etc, around St. Stephen's Green, rather than just build a straight route through the city to serve the offices, shops, cafes and bars around, say, College Green/Dame Street/Temple Bar.

You have answered this question. There would be too much disruption. Thank you.

Jack Noble wrote: »

Earlier in the thread, you said this:...
To which Victor replied:...

I don't think you were being facetious, I think you actually believe SSG is nothing more than a park because you are completely ignoring what makes SSG - and particularly that point where SSG meets Grafton Street and where the Luas-Metro-Dart interchange is to be located - the epicentre of Dublin 2 and why it was selected for the major interchange.

I'm open to correction, but for the moment I will stand by that comment. Comparing the footprint of the buildings around St. Stephen's Green and the footprint of the park itself, isn't it mostly a park?:)

But it leads on to a very serious issue related to the proposed interconnector. And this is the capacity issue related to the southside of this line between St. Stephen's Green and Pearse. You talk of the epicentre of the city being the place where St. Stephen's Green meets Grafton Street. Almost all of the places which you two (you and Monument) have mentioned lie North of that location. The Government departments, the bars, cafes, etc. Unfortunately, there is very little to the south to sustain this line over an 18-hour operational day. Go twenty metres south of where you were sitting in your cafe on Sunday, and it dies out very quickly.

After about 10 in the morning, there is effectively no demand to go to places south of the Fusiliers' Arch. If this line is built through St. Stephen's Green, most of the custom will come from those wishing to head north of the line, or changing onto the LUAS to head south (which they could also do from College Green or O'Connell Street). In the evening, the reverse will be true.

Unfortunately, outside of those times on weekdays (and, also, the whole weekend), there will be minimal demand on one whole side of the line.

The situation would, to some extent be different at O'Connell Street, but would be particularly noticeable at College Green, where there would be a consistently busy catchment area on both sides of the line, including many of the Government departments, offices, cafes, etc. in the area between St. Stephen's Green and College Green mentioned by you and Monument.

But, sadly, that can't happen because of the fear of disruption.:mad:

OssianSmyth

Metro North would cost about €200m/year out of a gross national spend of €70bn.

In the last budget, a tax break for tourism was announced at an annual cost of €350m while an air travel tax was repealed at an annual cost of €36m. A TV licence tax of €200m per year is collected and used principally as a welfare payment for RTE. These are the freely made spending choices of the government.

ESRI estimated that cutting hotel VAT would give a negative return on investment to the state, but this was ignored.

Now that ten year borrowing rates have fallen to 3.5%, the National Development Finance Agency's PPP programme has reopened for business with €1.4bn of projects announced including three major roads projects, Grangegorman DIT and bottler's primary care centres.

Meanwhile, the capital budget for transport projects fell €300m in 2013 compared to 2012. Fine Gael clearly sees public transport as a cost to be shorn rather than a place to invest. Rightly or wrongly, the government sees little value in public transport and is running it down. This is not for lack of money but a consequence of their value system.

Sam Russell

I would think the argument relating to SSG could be better made re the Docklands end of the interconnector. There is little there but a Luas line. No cafe society, night clubs, offices (that are occupied), or much of anything. However, there might be in 20 years time.

Build it and they will come.

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

But it leads on to a very serious issue related to the proposed interconnector. And this is the capacity issue related to the southside of this line between St. Stephen's Green and Pearse. You talk of the epicentre of the city being the place where St. Stephen's Green meets Grafton Street. Almost all of the places which you two (you and Monument) have mentioned lie North of that location. The Government departments, the bars, cafes, etc. Unfortunately, there is very little to the south to sustain this line over an 18-hour operational day. Go twenty metres south of where you were sitting in your cafe on Sunday, and it dies out very quickly.

After about 10 in the morning, there is effectively no demand to go to places south of the Fusiliers' Arch. If this line is built through St. Stephen's Green, most of the custom will come from those wishing to head north of the line, or changing onto the LUAS to head south (which they could also do from College Green or O'Connell Street). In the evening, the reverse will be true.

Unfortunately, outside of those times on weekdays (and, also, the whole weekend), there will be minimal demand on one whole side of the line.

The situation would, to some extent be different at O'Connell Street, but would be particularly noticeable at College Green, where there would be a consistently busy catchment area on both sides of the line, including many of the Government departments, offices, cafes, etc. in the area between St. Stephen's Green and College Green mentioned by you and Monument.

But, sadly, that can't happen because of the fear of disruption.:mad:

Will you please stop talking uninformed nonsense -- there'd be loads of demand "south of the Fusiliers' Arch" after 10am.

There's tones of offices which still get visitors and commuters on their return in the evening (there's most offices directly south than directly north from the archee). And at least two government departments off the top of my head are south of the arch.

The NCH, Pod, the Suger Club, the Village etc etc and a load of places to eat and drink are all south of the arch.

There's also a bunch of night clubs and a ton of hotels south of the arch. So, are a ton of homes.

You really don't seem to have a clue about the makeup of Dublin and due to this you are in a poor position to be claiming where the better location is.

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would think the argument relating to SSG could be better made re the Docklands end of the interconnector. There is little there but a Luas line. No cafe society, night clubs, offices (that are occupied), or much of anything. However, there might be in 20 years time.

Build it and they will come.

The Docklands would be fairly well served by Dart, Luas, the north quays QBC and an intercity and commuter train stations on its door step.

The city centre would still be the priority.

robd

OssianSmyth wrote: »

This is not for lack of money but a consequence of their value system.

vote buying system.

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

OK, so the reason that College Green was ruled out was that there would be too much disruption and, it would be too sensitive, despite the experiences in other cities with nice architecture (Rome, Paris, London, etc). I've got it, and I fully understand that there probably isn't the expertise in Dublin to deal with a situation like this, yet.

I think it's safe to add 'disingenuous' to 'obtuse' to describe your posts and arguments.

Where did I suggest 'disruption' was the reason College Green was not selected?

What I said is it would not be acceptable to the public and public opinion very much matters these days when it comes to such projects.

Metro North is a project that received plenty of public opposition - much of it based on ignorance, plenty of it disingenuous and a large dollop of it based on downright lies - so that, in my opinion, made it very easy for the new government to kick it into the long grass when it came to power.

Look at the Children's Hospital at the Mater - public opposition helped kill that.

You have cited Times Square and Piccadilly Circus in New York and London - but both those projects were carried out in the early 20th century when public opinion was the last thing that influenced the powers that be.

You all cite Paris, London and Rome and in all three cities, latter day public opposition caused major delays in projects, led to redesigns and even deletions of parts of lines or stops.

Here's another major city for you - Amsterdam. Are you aware that public opposition actually killed the ambitious four-line Metro project planned from the mid-1960s because of the fears construction would damage the fabric of the historic city - in addition to the rising costs associated with delays due to archealogical discoveries and engineering difficulties. New underground lines in Amsterdam remained off the agenda for another 30 years until the North-South line - originally part of the 1960s project - came back on the agenda and construction began in the 2000s. That too is facing the exact same opposition today - and the same delays due to the same reasons. Disruption is only one part of that equation and a relatively minor one that can be overcome with good planning and project management.

Public opinion matters in this day and age - whether we like it or not. And major projects survive or whither and die depending on the levels of support or opposition they get from the public.

Well, Jack, in fairness, the only reason which the RPA ever actually produced for coming up with the OCB idea was cost. If there were other reasons, you can't really blame me if the RPA are bull****ting the public about their reasons for taking a particular course of action.

Actually, cost was one factor in the RPA decision re OCB but there were others. One was that major opposition could be expected to construction on College Green and at the GPO. You only have to see the level of opposition to construction at SSG to work out what it would have been like for CG and OCS/GPO. But nother key factor was that the distances involved between the GPO, CG and SSG did not justify three stops and both CG and OCS/GPO could actually be served just as well by a single stop at OCB with station entrances on OCS and Westmoreland St - especially as Metro was to be complemented by a Luas line with stops at CG and OCS/GPO.

The OCB metro stop is a very good compromise which will serve Dublin city centre very well when built - but I'm not in the least surprised you cannot see that.

Jack, I follow closely what you and other posters say. As I said to Monument above, I am aware of what great things there are in St. Stephen's Green. I am also aware that I see those same things in or around College Green and (probably to a lesser extent) O'Connell Street. Offices, Government Departments, pubs, restaurants, cafes, etc.

The largest cluster of all of the above are within 1km of the SSG/Grafton Street junction. Just look at the map Victor posted above showing the employment density in central Dublin. SSG (the green bit in the middle of all that dark brown) is at the very heart of that area on the southside of the river.

The interconnector can't serve everywhere in the city. My question was why it is necessary to spend a lot more money building a longer route to serve the offices, shops, cafes, bars, etc, around St. Stephen's Green, rather than just build a straight route through the city to serve the offices, shops, cafes and bars around, say, College Green/Dame Street/Temple Bar

.

It's designed to serve the busiest area in the city - the centre of which is SSG/GS. It's really that simple.

You have answered this question. There would be too much disruption. Thank you.

I never mentioned disruption re CG or OCS - anywhere.

I've used it regarding two other areas - Heuston Station and SSG.

Re Heuston, constructing the DU tunnel portals and tie-ins in the railyard at Heuston would have meant enormous disruption to rail services into HS, the busiest rail station in the State. It would have also been very expensive. Hence the decision to extend the tunnel to Inhicore and surface in IE property there.

Re SSG, there is plenty of space for construction on SSG which can be done in such a way as to minimise disruption in the area during the construction phase.

I'm open to correction, but for the moment I will stand by that comment. Comparing the footprint of the buildings around St. Stephen's Green and the footprint of the park itself, isn't it mostly a park?:)

That comment shows just how blind and ridiculous your argument is - smiley or no smiley.

But it leads on to a very serious issue related to the proposed interconnector. And this is the capacity issue related to the southside of this line between St. Stephen's Green and Pearse. You talk of the epicentre of the city being the place where St. Stephen's Green meets Grafton Street. Almost all of the places which you two (you and Monument) have mentioned lie North of that location. The Government departments, the bars, cafes, etc. Unfortunately, there is very little to the south to sustain this line over an 18-hour operational day. Go twenty metres south of where you were sitting in your cafe on Sunday, and it dies out very quickly.

The retail and hospitality cluster is north of the stop - between Georges Street and Kildare Street.

However, there are major office blocks - State and private sector - south, west and east of the stop on all four sides of the Green itself, on Leeson St, Harcourt St, Earlsfort Terrance, both Hatch streets, Cuffe St and Kevin St, Merrion Row and Merrion St and Lower Baggot St, Pemroke Street and Fitzwilliam Square. All those areas are within 10 mins walk of SSG/GS junction.

After about 10 in the morning, there is effectively no demand to go to places south of the Fusiliers' Arch. If this line is built through St. Stephen's Green, most of the custom will come from those wishing to head north of the line, or changing onto the LUAS to head south (which they could also do from College Green or O'Connell Street). In the evening, the reverse will be true.

This point shows you simply don't get what public transportation is about - never mind Dart or Metro.

The fundamental idea is to get the largest number of people to where they want to go when they want to go there. And that is the morning and evening peak - 7am to 10am and 4pm to 7pm. That accounts for roughly two-thirds of commuter traffic - the other third uses PT spread through the rest of the day and into the evening.

And the largest number of people commuting into and out of Dublin are headinto that area centred around SSG/GS.

Unfortunately, outside of those times on weekdays (and, also, the whole weekend), there will be minimal demand on one whole side of the line.

In your head maybe - but not in the real world.

The situation would, to some extent be different at O'Connell Street, but would be particularly noticeable at College Green, where there would be a consistently busy catchment area on both sides of the line, including many of the Government departments, offices, cafes, etc. in the area between St. Stephen's Green and College Green mentioned by you and Monument.

But, sadly, that can't happen because of the fear of disruption.:mad:

Once again, where did I suggest 'disruption' in the context of CG and OCS?

I've stated the reasons why SSG and OCB stops were selected for DU/MN and MN respectively - disruption was not one of them that I cited.

LXFlyer

I think it is apt to point out that prior to LUAS arriving, Dublin Bus operated two bus routes from Heuston Station.

One was the 90 to Connolly and the IFSC and the other was the 92 to St Stephen's Green and Leeson Street.

Post-Network Direct, there is now the 145 following the 92 route every 10 minutes, all of the Lucan Road buses (25/a/b, 26, 66/a/b, 67) have been extended cross-city to Merrion Square (half via St Stephen's Green) and all of the Navan Road buses (37, 38/a/b, 39/a, 70) have also been extended cross-city to Baggot Street via St Stephen's Green.

Now if that does not suggest that there is demand for public transport in the south city centre, I don't know what will. Are you seriously suggesting strassenwo!f that DB did that because there was no demand there?

There is clearly significant demand for public transport in that area of the city.

Also, routing the interconnector via the wide arc means that the intersection of the two DART lines can take place at Pearse - which is far better suited to such a facility than Tara Street due to it having a much bigger station area.