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Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )
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Is there a reason trams work all around the world in the city centre but that it won't work in Dublin?
To me if the line gets to passenger capacity quickly (which is kind of expected) that's a sign of a strong demand for more tram lines.
Generally, cities with good tram networks use them as short distance services with frequent stops to intensively serve city centres. These cities generally also have widespread commuter rail/metro services to rapidly serve the suburbs.
The Luas is expected to serve the city and the suburbs, and it's very noticeable that it's a fast, segregated light rail service until it hits Harcourt street, where speed dramatically slows. The green Luas is already very full, and demand will only increase when BXD means it will fully serve the city centre.
In the 1960's, German cities like Cologne and Stuttgart started putting the city centre portions of their tramways underground, called Statdbahn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtbahn.
For me, the way to develop Luas should be plenty of overground branches inside the M50, and an underground core inside the canals.0 -
Generally, cities with good tram networks use them as short distance services with frequent stops to intensively serve city centres. These cities generally also have widespread commuter rail/metro services to rapidly serve the suburbs.
The Luas is expected to serve the city and the suburbs, and it's very noticeable that it's a fast, segregated light rail service until it hits Harcourt street, where speed dramatically slows. The green Luas is already very full, and demand will only increase when BXD means it will fully serve the city centre.
In the 1960's, German cities like Cologne and Stuttgart started putting the city centre portions of their tramways underground, called Statdbahn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtbahn.
For me, the way to develop Luas should be plenty of overground branches inside the M50, and an underground core inside the canals.
Yeah, and there's loads of cities like Amsterdam which have surface trams in the city centre which reach far out into the suburbs. Sure, you also have some faster routes, and it does not really matter if you call those Dart or Metro or S-ban or whatever.metrostation wrote: »The line doesnt have to cut through the football pitch at st vincents, it could pass along side it and have its own exit point beside the school buildings as opposed to using st. Philomenas road.But this will be pending on the dept. playing ball with the RPA.
It would pass through a small section of the finglas road (not too much distruption) then onto prospect avenue, which currently has 3 lanes of traffic going one way.
On the botanic road there is very restricted space and this would require a certain level of traffic restriction (similar to the stretch of road between the flats and st James hospital on the luas red line)
Then on mobhi road you would be looking at taking a section of the footpath on either side of the road and cutting down some trees to make the road wider and take the width of two tram lines as well as two lanes of traffic.
Then onwards to the ballymun road you have ample space to run two lanes of traffic either side AND two luas lines.
I don't see the space for it to just go along side the pitch, but you have loads of space problems:
Between the school and where Botanic Road narrows, you have nearly 400m of just three lanes of traffic: Where are you putting two tram tracks? At least one track would have to be shared with traffic or you're putting trams down to just one track? Regardless, this is messy stuff in a heavily trafficked area with no alternative routes for traffic.
Then there's another 300m on Botanic Road where trams would have no choice but to share just two traffic lanes with trams. There's just two traffic lanes here, there's less room than at St James's Hospital. James's Street is nearly 20m wide near the hospital, while Botanic Road is generally under 15m wide.
There's nowhere else on the Luas where trams have to share anywhere near as lanes with traffic around main arterial roads. There's one or two short bits of 100-200m -- one of which is a chronic pinch point. There's nowhere near 700m of such problematic section of track and nowhere that brings the Luas two-way shared with two-way traffic in just the space of two lanes.
And then you want to cause an uproar among the good people of Glasnevin by not only the above traffic mess, but also suggesting that you knock down all of (or at least most of) the mature trees along Mobhi Road and you also narrow the footpaths. Have fun with that one.FreudianSlippers wrote: »Please excuse me if this is the craziest thing anyone has ever said... but I'm just throwing it out there...
The Luas is, effectively, somewhere between a tram and light rail - it is segregated at times, but integrated with traffic at times (and will be more-so with the BXD).
Now for the crazy: What about an airport spur through the port tunnel?
Or continue the BXD to Navan Road Parkway and run heavy rail from there along the M50 to the airport?
The Port Tunnel idea would likely cause safety issues but it would mainly affect the main function of the tunnel.0 -
I don't see the space for it to just go along side the pitch, but you have loads of space problems:
Between the school and where Botanic Road narrows, you have nearly 400m of just three lanes of traffic: Where are you putting two tram tracks? At least one track would have to be shared with traffic or you're putting trams down to just one track? Regardless, this is messy stuff in a heavily trafficked area with no alternative routes for traffic.
Then there's another 300m on Botanic Road where trams would have no choice but to share just two traffic lanes with trams. There's just two traffic lanes here, there's less room than at St James's Hospital. James's Street is nearly 20m wide near the hospital, while Botanic Road is generally under 15m wide.
There's nowhere else on the Luas where trams have to share anywhere near as lanes with traffic around main arterial roads. There's one or two short bits of 100-200m -- one of which is a chronic pinch point. There's nowhere near 700m of such problematic section of track and nowhere that brings the Luas two-way shared with two-way traffic in just the space of two lanes.
And then you want to cause an uproar among the good people of Glasnevin by not only the above traffic mess, but also suggesting that you knock down all of (or at least most of) the mature trees along Mobhi Road and you also narrow the footpaths. Have fun with that one.
I accept the angle you are coming from here, trying to keep everybody happy with very little distruption but this would only be achievable if you put the Luas undergroung for some sections as one poster has pointed out.I simply put a suggestion out there to see what good folk like yourself would think of it.
I also accept that there would be 3 major challenges with the route i have outlined.
1.Getting access through the school.
2.Traffic distruptions around lower Glasnevin and Botanic road areas.
3.Getting access through the airport.
Yes Botanic road would pose a bit of a traffic problem and i did wonder if there was a chance it could work with traffic sharing and signalling.
The widening of the road and removal of trees on mobhi road would have to be a necessary evil unfortunately trees get removed all the time to make way for public infrastructure projects.0 -
FreudianSlippers wrote: »Please excuse me if this is the craziest thing anyone has ever said... but I'm just throwing it out there...
The Luas is, effectively, somewhere between a tram and light rail - it is segregated at times, but integrated with traffic at times (and will be more-so with the BXD).
Now for the crazy: What about an airport spur through the port tunnel?
You would have to look at this as a heavy rail option branching off at docklands and then heading on through the tunnel.This would mean closing off one of the tunnels and possibly causing heavy traffic congestion at entrance and exit portals.
Where would you propose the line to go after it exits the tunnel?0 -
For me too. This is the only recipe likely to be really successful long term IMO.For me, the way to develop Luas should be plenty of overground branches inside the M50, and an underground core inside the canals.
It saddens me that the Red Line from Heuston to The Point wasn't built as cut and cover. People tend to forget but the longest time was spent on diverting and/or strengthening all the old services under that section before laying the track slab could actually begin. The track slab itself didn't take all that long to complete. For relatively little extra disruption we could have probably built that stretch as cut and cover tunnel (with fewer stops naturally). Yes it would have taken longer, perhaps 18 months longer, but it would have been so worth it.
If that had been done the Red Line would only share a small percentage of its total length with other traffic. That section from Heuston to Busaras really kills the Red Line's ability to ever be a mass mover of people.
We are making the same mistake again with BxD of course. It's alright for Berlin to extend its on street tram network as it is because these trams are replacing buses, not acting as a substitute for a proper U Bahn which the already have...same with trams in London and elsewhere. Dublin should not be looking to what German cities are doing today because we are 50 years+ behind them: we should be looking to what they began doing 50 years ago with their pre-metros.0 -
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metrostation wrote: »I accept the angle you are coming from here, trying to keep everybody happy with very little distruption but this would only be achievable if you put the Luas undergroung for some sections as one poster has pointed out.I simply put a suggestion out there to see what good folk like yourself would think of it.
I also accept that there would be 3 major challenges with the route i have outlined.
1.Getting access through the school.
2.Traffic distruptions around lower Glasnevin and Botanic road areas.
3.Getting access through the airport.
Yes Botanic road would pose a bit of a traffic problem and i did wonder if there was a chance it could work with traffic sharing and signalling.
The widening of the road and removal of trees on mobhi road would have to be a necessary evil unfortunately trees get removed all the time to make way for public infrastructure projects.
I don't know why I'm still bothering, but the airport isn't really that much of an issue -- tunnel or use fairly wide road access points -- nothing above Griffith Ave is an issue.
Between the canal and Griffith Ave on your route is politically untenable.0 -
Yeah, and there's loads of cities like Amsterdam which have surface trams in the city centre which reach far out into the suburbs. Sure, you also have some faster routes, and it does not really matter if you call those Dart or Metro or S-ban or whatever.
But Amsterdam's trams do not go far into the suburbs - all 16 of Amsterdam's tram lines combined only cover 80km of track. Suburban transport in Amsterdam is provided by an integrated network of commuter trains, a metro (with a new city centre line under construction) and connecting buses. Dublin would do well to copy it.0 -
But Amsterdam's trams do not go far into the suburbs - all 16 of Amsterdam's tram lines combined only cover 80km of track. Suburban transport in Amsterdam is provided by an integrated network of commuter trains, a metro (with a new city centre line under construction) and connecting buses. Dublin would do well to copy it.
Diemen, IJburg, Nieuw-West, Osdorp etc.
Buses also connect with a few of, if not all of, those tram stops.
Also: It's worth saying one metro line actually shares tracks with a tram line (the metro goes out further in this case and the stops have two platform levels).For me too. This is the only recipe likely to be really successful long term IMO.
It saddens me that the Red Line from Heuston to The Point wasn't built as cut and cover. People tend to forget but the longest time was spent on diverting and/or strengthening all the old services under that section before laying the track slab could actually begin. The track slab itself didn't take all that long to complete. For relatively little extra disruption we could have probably built that stretch as cut and cover tunnel (with fewer stops naturally). Yes it would have taken longer, perhaps 18 months longer, but it would have been so worth it.
If that had been done the Red Line would only share a small percentage of its total length with other traffic. That section from Heuston to Busaras really kills the Red Line's ability to ever be a mass mover of people.
We are making the same mistake again with BxD of course. It's alright for Berlin to extend its on street tram network as it is because these trams are replacing buses, not acting as a substitute for a proper U Bahn which the already have...same with trams in London and elsewhere. Dublin should not be looking to what German cities are doing today because we are 50 years+ behind them: we should be looking to what they began doing 50 years ago with their pre-metros.
Berlin has a far greater need for a large U-ban and S-ban network because Berlin is close to 8 times larger than Dublin.
For Dublin a surface tram network in the city centre is perfect for serving trip generators. For example, on the Red Line: A major hospital, a major train station, a large museum, a redevelopment area / struggling cultural area, a large courts complex, a major shopping area, the city's main street, an intercity bus station, another major train station, a major business area, a redevelopment area / a third level institution / more large employers, a large conference centre, and a large venue.0 -
I'm not comparing Dublin to Berlin at all. That's been my point all along!Berlin has a far greater need for a large U-ban and S-ban network because Berlin is close to 8 times larger than Dublin.
For Dublin a surface tram network in the city centre is perfect for serving trip generators. For example, on the Red Line: A major hospital, a major train station, a large museum, a redevelopment area / struggling cultural area, a large courts complex, a major shopping area, the city's main street, an intercity bus station, another major train station, a major business area, a redevelopment area / a third level institution / more large employers, a large conference centre, and a large venue.
We should compare Dublin to Cologne & Stuttgart, not Berlin. Cologne & Stuttgart had surface tram lines and still do, but they realised 50 years ago that for their tram network to be really effective, they'd need to underground the core city centre sections and to grade separate other selected locations such as at major road junctions.0 -
I'm not comparing Dublin to Berlin at all. That's been my point all along!
We should compare Dublin to Cologne & Stuttgart, not Berlin. Cologne & Stuttgart had surface tram lines and still do, but they realised 50 years ago that for their tram network to be really effective, they'd need to underground the core city centre sections and to grade separate other selected locations such as at major road junctions.
I have never been to those cities but it seems the problem is that Cologne and Stuttgart trams have a stronger need to be underground because of their large road networks on the ground in their city centers.
I'm not dismissing the usefulness of some cut and cover, we're just heading more towards the models adapted by other cities where more limited space on streets and urban roads is given over to walking, cycling and public transport.0 -
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I am totally in favour of giving over more road space to non-private car uses. If I were in charge the Quays and College Green would have been pedestrianised years ago-total shame that the riverfront is lost to traffic.I have never been to those cities but it seems the problem is that Cologne and Stuttgart trams have a stronger need to be underground because of their large road networks on the ground in their city centers.
I'm not dismissing the usefulness of some cut and cover, we're just heading more towards the models adapted by other cities where more limited space on streets and urban roads is given over to walking, cycling and public transport.
Having said that, trams passing through such pedestrianised spaces must do so at a snail's pace (Alexanderplatz in Berlin has such tram movements across an otherwise pedestrian only square and there are near misses all the time as the trams are just so quiet and people, especially tourists seem oblivious to them).
Trams need to move at a decent speed to fulfill a mass transit role, which they absolutely can in Dublin. we need the courage and commitment to underground trams in the most congested places to allow them to pass swiftly under the busy streets above-streets busy with people not necessarily private vehicles.0 -
If that had been done the Red Line would only share a small percentage of its total length with other traffic. That section from Heuston to Busaras really kills the Red Line's ability to ever be a mass mover of people.
Exactly. The realitvely high capacity of the outer suburban segregated parts of Dublin LUAS lines can be compromised by running these lines in amongst traffic and pedestrians in town. Likewise the Green line is segregated all the way into the canal, but will now be based on what is feasible to run through the city centre.0 -
But it's funny how those who are very pro-bus and those who are very pro-metro are both overly obsessed with lack of speed of the red line in the city centre, when the city centre section has been so successful.
The red line has flaws and it would have been lovely if anybody was willing to spend the extra on cut-and-cover in some key spots -- James's to Heuston (a nightmare to do); under O'Connell Street; and possibly from Abbey Street to the Docklands (would need a stop underground). At the time it was hard enough to justify the project which was built -- and the same goes for BXD.
Anyway, the plan for the red line is to split the line and have the section running more directly from James's Street to Dame Street -- that way the outer section potential capacity talked about can be, in a way, realised.
On the green line, if the section past St Stephen's Green can't take as much as south of it, then just send X amount of trams back from the Green southbound.0 -
Just to emphasise the slow speed of on-street LUAS.
Comparing LUAS times (per LUAS mobile website) with Dublin Bus times (as per the NTA timetables):
Red Cow-City Centre
LUAS - 30 minutes (to Abbey St)
69 Bus - 20-31 minutes (to Hawkins St)
Heuston Station-City Centre
LUAS - 11 minutes (to Abbey St)
145 Bus - 8-13 minutes (to D'Olier St)
The new BXD line is to take 24 minutes from Broombridge to St Stephen's Green. That is an average speed of just over 9.1mph. This frankly is pretty appalling.
Assuming that the section from Broombridge to Phibsborough stop takes 5 minutes, then that means that it will take 19 minutes from Phibsborough to St Stephen's Green.
Taking the 38 bus performs exactly that trip, and takes between 13 and 22 minutes depending upon the time of day.
One has to seriously wonder about the benefits of on-street trams when you compare these statistics.0 -
But it's funny how those who are very pro-bus and those who are very pro-metro are both overly obsessed with lack of speed of the red line in the city centre, when the city centre section has been so successful.
The red line has flaws and it would have been lovely if anybody was willing to spend the extra on cut-and-cover in some key spots -- James's to Heuston (a nightmare to do); under O'Connell Street; and possibly from Abbey Street to the Docklands (would need a stop underground). At the time it was hard enough to justify the project which was built -- and the same goes for BXD.
Anyway, the plan for the red line is to split the line and have the section running more directly from James's Street to Dame Street -- that way the outer section potential capacity talked about can be, in a way, realised.
On the green line, if the section past St Stephen's Green can't take as much as south of it, then just send X amount of trams back from the Green southbound.
Well, I certainly do think that the red line makes a difference, but there are a couple of general points to make here:
1) Politicians and the public in this country do tend to have somewhat blinkered vision when it comes to buses in this country - anything on rails "has" to be better - that's not necessarily always the case. Some of this is down to poor management over the years, but some of it is down to prejudice.
2) People tend to move like sheep - occasional users certainly will use LUAS over the bus. But, for example, if I am arriving at Heuston, I will use the Dublin Bus app - see when the next bus is from each stop, and get the first one - most other people go straight to the LUAS stop. Invariably I find I beat the tram. People need to become more intelligent about their travel.0 -
Just to emphasise the slow speed of on-street LUAS.
Comparing LUAS times (per LUAS mobile website) with Dublin Bus times (as per the NTA timetables):
Red Cow-City Centre
LUAS - 30 minutes (to Abbey St)
69 Bus - 20-31 minutes (to Hawkins St)
Heuston Station-City Centre
LUAS - 11 minutes (to Abbey St)
145 Bus - 8-13 minutes (to D'Olier St)
The new BXD line is to take 24 minutes from Broombridge to St Stephen's Green. That is an average speed of just over 9.1mph. This frankly is pretty appalling.
Assuming that the section from Broombridge to Phibsborough stop takes 5 minutes, then that means that it will take 19 minutes from Phibsborough to St Stephen's Green.
Taking the 38 bus which performs exactly that trip, and takes between 13 and 22 minutes depending upon the time of day.
One has to seriously wonder about the benefits of on-street trams when you compare these statistics.
This is exactly what I was taking about in my last point.
Anybody who looks at the amount of passengers transported by on-street trams should not have to seriously wonder at all.0 -
2) People tend to move like sheep - occasional users certainly will use LUAS over the bus. But, for example, if I am arriving at Heuston, I will use the Dublin Bus app - see when the next bus is from each stop, and get the first one - most other people go straight to the LUAS stop. Invariably I find I beat the tram. People need to become more intelligent about their travel.
No, not just occasional, Luas moves a far larger amount of people across the day.0 -
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People need to become more intelligent about their travel.
I think that's more than a little unfair. There are many reasons, both real and imaginary, why people choose Luas over DB. It's a more trusted brand than DB, partly because it's rail and people, in general, automatically assume that rail is better than bus. Partly it's because it's seen as providing a more reliable service than DB - whether that's fair or true, it's a generally held belief in Dublin that Luas is reliable and predictable and DB is anything but.
For people who are unfamiliar with public transport in Dublin, Luas provides a better experience. The passenger information available at the Heuston stops is vastly better (route maps, stop information, ticket information, platform direction, etc). The ticketing system is simpler and the ticket machines take notes and credit card. Not all of those are DBs fault of course but for passengers, they're vital. Luas gets the simple things right while DB, in the main, get the simple things wrong.
Until DB start getting those things right, comparing the speed of the two modes is irrelevant. Trams can and will, sadly, trundle along at snails pace and continue to drag passengers away from Dublin Bus because the overall level of service is better.
Also, it's worth noting that trams in the city centre might be better if they were underground but being at street level has it's own advantages. Ease of access is a big thing, especially for older people, people with wheelchairs, buggies, heavy shopping bags, etc. It's also much faster for passengers taking relatively short trips if the platform is right there, at street level instead of having to locate the nearest entrance and descending to an underground platform.0 -
This is exactly what I was taking about in my last point.
Anybody who looks at the amount of passengers transported by on-street trams should not have to seriously wonder at all.
So we are spending €368m on a line that will:
1) Cause existing bus passengers all along the route (far greater in number) to have a longer journey due to being diverted
2) Take approximately the same time or longer than the existing bus service
3) Have a peak city centre frequency of every 3 minutes but will only be half that or more beyond Parnell Street.
I still remain to be fully convinced on BXD.
This has a far bigger impact than any of the other tram routes on existing bus passengers.0 -
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I think that's more than a little unfair. There are many reasons, both real and imaginary, why people choose Luas over DB. It's a more trusted brand than DB, partly because it's rail and people, in general, automatically assume that rail is better than bus. Partly it's because it's seen as providing a more reliable service than DB.
For people who are unfamiliar with public transport in Dublin, Luas provides a better experience. The passenger information available at the Heuston stops is vastly better (route maps, stop information, ticket information, platform direction, etc). The ticketing system is simpler and the ticket machines take notes and credit card. Not all of those are DBs fault of course but for passengers, they're vital. Luas gets the simple things right while DB, in the main, get the simple things wrong.
Until DB start getting those things right, comparing the speed of the two modes is irrelevant.
Mark - people need to use the tools that are provided - Irish people are like sheep. They tend to herd with everyone else.
There are big displays in the concourse of both Heuston and Connolly showing the next buses from every stop around the stations, as well as the signs at the stops themselves.
Frequently I have arrived into Heuston in the evening, checked the signs, boarded a bus alone, and have already left, while the rest of the people are herding themselves onto the platform still waiting for a tram.
This obsession that trams are necessarily better needs to be countered - it isn't always true.
People are just not using all of the tools available.
I have the option of bus or tram/bus home from the city. I take the fastest option depending on where I am and what the potential options are - I check the apps. Most people don't! That needs to change.0 -
2) Take approximately the same time or longer than the existing bus service
We are spending the money building a tram line which will:
- make public transport in Dublin more attractive
- join the Green line to the rest of the urban rail network
You are focusing too much on the city centre section when it's only a small part of the project.There are big displays in the concourse of both Heuston and Connolly showing the next buses from every stop around the stations, as well as the signs at the stops themselves.
How does a prospective passenger find out how much the bus trip will cost them? What time will the last bus return to the Heuston? Is that information available at the bus stop? Can they pay using the €20 note they just withdrew from the ATM? Can they buy a return or daily ticket? Can they buy a student ticket? Can the bus take them to the IFSC or O2 like the Luas can? These are all reasons why people would, sensibly, choose the Luas over the bus. Speed isn't everything.
I know you're right and that rail isn't always better but, in Dublin, it almost always is. Perhaps the odd bus is faster than the tram and might arrive first and yes, NTA/DCC/DB have made vast strides towards improving DB lately but the overall experience on Luas is vastly better than DB and that's what people remember. They forget that the 145 was 4 minutes faster than the Luas but they remember the day that the bus didn't show up and they were left wondering what was going on.0 -
We are spending the money building a tram line which will:
- make public transport in Dublin more attractive
- join the Green line to the rest of the urban rail network
You are focusing too much on the city centre section when it's only a small part of the project.
How does a prospective passenger find out how much the bus trip will cost them? What time will the last bus return to the Heuston? Is that information available at the bus stop? Can they pay using the €20 note they just withdrew from the ATM? Can they buy a return or daily ticket? Can they buy a student ticket? Can the bus take them to the IFSC or O2 like the Luas can? These are all reasons why people would, sensibly, choose the Luas over the bus. Speed isn't everything.
I know you're right and that rail isn't always better but, in Dublin, it almost always is. Perhaps the odd bus is faster than the tram and might arrive first and yes, NTA/DCC/DB have made vast strides towards improving DB lately but the overall experience on Luas is vastly better than DB and that's what people remember. They forget that the 145 was 4 minutes faster than the Luas but they remember the day that the bus didn't show up and they were left wondering what was going on.
I am not arguing about the whys and wherefores of the Red line - it's there already - but I still think people need to be more intelligent in terms of using public transport and looking at all the options. I would strongly suggest Mark that in the case of Heuston, it's certainly far more than the odd bus that is faster.
However where BXD really falls down for me versus Metro North (which I certainly was in favour of) is not just the lack of speed - it is the serious (and I do think that this is constantly not given the proper analysis) disruption to the existing bus users.
As for linking with the train at Broombridge - that was virtually ignored by the business case for this project (as were any transfers between red and green lines).
Taking off-peak, would you take a not particularly frequent tram to Broombridge (appx every 10 minutes) to connect into an hourly train? Or would you board in the city?
As for waiting for a bus - there are 3 routes on St John's Road, 1 outside the station, and 6 on Parkgate Street - you are never going to be waiting very long!0 -
(and I do think that this is constantly not given the proper analysis) disruption to the existing bus users.
It's fairly clear that the NTA's draft City Centre Transport Assessment Study has given the issue proper analysis.
Basically it suggests what I have suggested some time ago on here -- divert a lot of buses away from College Green using strong bus priority.As for linking with the train at Broombridge - that was virtually ignored by the business case for this project (as were any transfers between red and green lines).
Because the business case is restricted?
But does that not just means we have extra benefits which were not accounted for?Taking off-peak, would you take a not particularly frequent tram to Broombridge (appx every 10 minutes) to connect into an hourly train? Or would you board in the city?
The real benefits of Broombridge will be when it is served by Dart.
But if I lived on or near the green line, looked up the the train time (which you have to do anyway), and know the general travel time from my stop to the Broombridge:
All stops north of O'Connell Street would seem to make some sense to head to Broombridge; and all stops stops south of that it would be dependent on cost and where the train you're connected with is leaving from -- if its passing Tara, it might be worth getting off the tram and walking to Tara, but if the train is leaving from Connelly, it'd be easier to head to Broombridge.As for waiting for a bus - there are 3 routes on St John's Road, 1 outside the station, and 6 on Parkgate Street - you are never going to be waiting very long!
I used to live on Parkgate Street and off-peak I'd often played a game of stand on the tram tracks where I can see a bus or tram approaching. Trams won 60/40.
Real time would have been nice on Parkgate Street, but even with a real time app I don't think I'd fancy playing a game of spot the next bus at those three locations. An extra while waiting for a tram that's more likely to arrive sounds better.0 -
It's fairly clear that the NTA's draft City Centre Transport Assessment Study has given the issue proper analysis.
Basically it suggests what I have suggested some time ago on here -- divert a lot of buses away from College Green using strong bus priority.
Indeed - lets just divert all the buses away from where people actually want to go to!Because the business case is restricted?
But does that not just means we have extra benefits which were not accounted for?
We have a business case that performed very little meaningful analysis of the impact on existing bus users.The real benefits of Broombridge will be when it is served by Dart.
But if I lived on or near the green line, looked up the the train time (which you have to do anyway), and know the general travel time from my stop to the Broombridge:
All stops north of O'Connell Street would seem to make some sense to head to Broombridge; and all stops stops south of that it would be dependent on cost and where the train you're connected with is leaving from -- if its passing Tara, it might be worth getting off the tram and walking to Tara, but if the train is leaving from Connelly, it'd be easier to head to Broombridge.
I think you mean if that line ever becomes a DART. That is anything but certain in our lifetimes.I used to live on Parkgate Street and off-peak I'd often played a game of stand on the tram tracks where I can see a bus or tram approaching. Trams won 60/40.
Real time would have been nice on Parkgate Street, but even with a real time app I don't think I'd fancy playing a game of spot the next bus at those three locations. An extra while waiting for a tram that's more likely to arrive sounds better.
I'm assuming that was prior to the Network Direct changes as it obviously prior to RTPI?
Just because things were a particular way then doesn't mean they still are!
I don't think it would be unfair to say that in your posts over the years, you've particularly been a fan of Dublin Bus, but I don't think that's a reason to advocate a project that will cause significant disruption to more people than it will benefit, and effectively suggest that the greater number of bus passengers should just be sent on a longer route!
For the record I think Dublin Bus management do have to shoulder some of the blame for the obvious negative perception of the bus service that a lot of people still have, but so do the politicians and civil servants who persistently interfered with any proposed changes, and were completely inept in developing a relevant bus network.0 -
I think you mean if that line ever becomes a DART. That is anything but certain in our lifetimes.
The Dart plan is the most likely major public transport which will go ahead.
But, hey, maybe Dublin residents will never wake up and shout. Maybe next big ticket project money for Dublin will go to the Eastern Bypass? Who knows the way Irish politics goes?Indeed - lets just divert all the buses away from where people actually want to go to!
... but I don't think that's a reason to advocate a project that will cause significant disruption to more people than it will benefit, and effectively suggest that the greater number of bus passengers should just be sent on a longer route!
Just to be clear here: My first suggestion was to put BXD around TCD. I only switched to pushing buses around there when it was clear the current BXD route was not going to change. Thinking BXD is going to be rerouted now is pointless.
Regardless of mode, the principal of going around TCD, with strong priority, is a solid one.
It's 1.7km vs 1.1/1.3km, but when you go around the km difference advantage of the shorter route is quickly eaten away by the slowness (more so if no buses are moved off College Green).
Going via College Green means mixing with far higher amounts of pedestrian, and in one direction buses are using a tiny street and crossing a junction from a leg of that junction with less priority than the other traffic sequence.
Going around you could stick a two-way bus way on the TCD side of all streets so that that bus traffic flow is only interrupted by one vehicular access point to TCD and pedestrian crossings - but nothing else, the bus way can be segregated from junctions.
Some passengers will be walking a little further and some will have a shorter walk.I don't think it would be unfair to say that in your posts over the years, you've particularly been a fan of Dublin Bus,
For the record I think Dublin Bus management do have to shoulder some of the blame for the obvious negative perception of the bus service that a lot of people still have, but so do the politicians and civil servants who persistently interfered with any proposed changes, and were completely inept in developing a relevant bus network.
Two things:- I'm not a fan of the overall low level and quality of service provided.
- I'm not a fan of having a DoT, RPA, Dublin Bus, Irish Rail, Bus Eireann, NTA, etc. Ireland has the population of Greater Manchester and cities both larger and smaller than Dublin manage to have a unified transport company / agency controlling and/or running most of urban transport.
0 - I'm not a fan of the overall low level and quality of service provided.
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I am not arguing about the whys and wherefores of the Red line - it's there already - but I still think people need to be more intelligent in terms of using public transport and looking at all the options. I would strongly suggest Mark that in the case of Heuston, it's certainly far more than the odd bus that is faster.
However where BXD really falls down for me versus Metro North (which I certainly was in favour of) is not just the lack of speed - it is the serious (and I do think that this is constantly not given the proper analysis) disruption to the existing bus users.
As for linking with the train at Broombridge - that was virtually ignored by the business case for this project (as were any transfers between red and green lines).
Taking off-peak, would you take a not particularly frequent tram to Broombridge (appx every 10 minutes) to connect into an hourly train? Or would you board in the city?
As for waiting for a bus - there are 3 routes on St John's Road, 1 outside the station, and 6 on Parkgate Street - you are never going to be waiting very long!
Hourly trains? You are being both disingenuous and political about your favourite mode. Of course no chat about electrification plans that would rightly soak pax away from cars in a way meandering buses stuck in Chapelizod etc can never do.0 -
Hourly trains? You are being both disingenuous and political about your favourite mode. Of course no chat about electrification plans that would rightly soak pax away from cars in a way meandering buses stuck in Chapelizod etc can never do.
Eh, check the the off peak timetable, which I clearly stated I was referring to. It is hourly on the Maynooth line.
I'm dealing with what is there rather than what might be there possibly in the future.
I do wonder where all this demand is going to come from? IE dropped frequency from half-hourly to hourly off-peak on the route.
There's a reason that the business case for BXD ignored rail passengers - even they don't expect people to switch in any great numbers.
As for the Lucan QBC - well peak hour buses use the Chapelizod bypass, while any buses that do serve Chapelizod have the benefit of new bus lanes that are making a big difference.0 -
The Dart plan is the most likely major public transport which will go ahead.
But, hey, maybe Dublin residents will never wake up and shout. Maybe next big ticket project money for Dublin will go to the Eastern Bypass? Who knows the way Irish politics goes?
Let's be honest here - the only reason BXD is going ahead is that the politicians needed to be seen to get one "big ticket" transport project under way - that doesn't necessarily mean it's the right one.Just to be clear here: My first suggestion was to put BXD around TCD. I only switched to pushing buses around there when it was clear the current BXD route was not going to change. Thinking BXD is going to be rerouted now is pointless.
Regardless of mode, the principal of going around TCD, with strong priority, is a solid one.
It's 1.7km vs 1.1/1.3km, but when you go around the km difference advantage of the shorter route is quickly eaten away by the slowness (more so if no buses are moved off College Green).
Going via College Green means mixing with far higher amounts of pedestrian, and in one direction buses are using a tiny street and crossing a junction from a leg of that junction with less priority than the other traffic sequence.
Going around you could stick a two-way bus way on the TCD side of all streets so that that bus traffic flow is only interrupted by one vehicular access point to TCD and pedestrian crossings - but nothing else, the bus way can be segregated from junctions.
Some passengers will be walking a little further and some will have a shorter walk.
Point to where I said BXD should now be re-routed - I may be many things, but I am a realist - the project is under construction. I'm resigned to the thing being built, but it doesn't mean that I am still very frustrated about the way existing bus users were not adequately considered in the business case, and how they are now going to be affected.
We're not just talking about any bus stops being affected here, we are talking about some of the busiest stops on the entire network - College Street, Grafton Street, Nassau Street, and Suffolk Street. This is where people wish to travel to and from and for a significantly greater number of people that will use the LUAS, they will not be able to do so anymore.
Even your choice of words "pushing buses around there" is an implied suggestion that they are being forced out to the "next best solution", despite the fact that they carry more people than the LUAS will.
As for your idea re Westland Row - while the NTA discussion document might have had it - it still would have to get past DCC, whose track record on implementing public transport priority measures is not exactly one painted in glory - viz. how long it took to get them to address the city centre traffic issues, the pandering to business re the College Green bus gate hours, the retention for years of the parking spaces on the south side of St Stephen's Green North (making access to bus stops difficult).
Unless DCC's attitude changes significantly (which would be surprising given they do not want to give up car parking revenue), I don't see it happening.
Instead, I honestly do believe that bus users will face longer journeys as a result of this.
I'm not sure how you are calculating your distances, but Dawson Street to Westmoreland Street via Suffolk Street is 500m. The route via Westland Row is 1.5km - a kilometre more.
It is utterly ludicrous that in designing a scheme like this, that the detailed effects of it on bus users was not required to be analysed, planned and explained clearly. Instead it is almost an afterthought - we still don't know what they are going to be.
Personally, what I think will happen is that some buses (particularly the Rathmines routes) may be re-routed via the much slower Camden Street/Georges Street corridor, while others will go via Westland Row.
If, for example, the 14 and 15/15a/15b end up being re-routed via Camden Street and Georges Street, then significant groups of people who currently board in Nassau Street, Kildare Street, St Stephen's Green and Earlsfort Terrace will have a not insignificant walk that they did not have before.
It's the lack of any proper public consideration of all of this in the planning process, in the assessment of the business case, coupled with the lack of any significant improvement in journey times, that really does lead me to the conclusion that this was primarily a political decision rather than one that has the best interests of the majority of public transport users in this city at it's core. Metro North clearly did deliver real improvements to a far greater number of people.
Until all of the powers that be in infrastructure planning start showing some realistic attitudes towards public transport development, meaning proper bus priority measures and not shifting buses away from the core city centre market (which will only make buses less attractive), then I really despair at where we are going.
Where specifically do you feel frequency is insufficient to meet demand levels?Two things:- I'm not a fan of the overall low level and quality of service provided.
- I'm not a fan of having a DoT, RPA, Dublin Bus, Irish Rail, Bus Eireann, NTA, etc. Ireland has the population of Greater Manchester and cities both larger and smaller than Dublin manage to have a unified transport company / agency controlling and/or running most of urban transport.
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lxflyer wrote:It is utterly ludicrous that in designing a scheme like this, that the detailed effects of it on bus users was not required to be analysed, planned and explained clearly. Instead it is almost an afterthought - we still don't know what they are going to be.
+1E100
This discussion has been closed.
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