Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Banjoxed

monument wrote: »

The RPA are pushing the idea of surface Luas to the airport (via Broombridge and Finglas) and Irish Rail are pushing their Dart spur idea, so I would not bet the price of a house on Metro North being built.

Irish Rail's plan is one thing but this is the first time since the original Luas proposals that I have heard it suggested that Luas Cross City be extended to the Airport. Where was this particular Kite flown from?

Edit: I can't see how the Metro West route would be of any practical use for a City Centre - Airport journey. In the DRRTS proposals there was a route to Ballymun via Walnut Grove and Griffith Avenue but presumably it went the same way as the once reserved busway to Tallaght via Mount Argus that got built on. Don't you just love Land Use and Transport Planning in Dublin?

richiek83

Victor wrote: »

Metro North isn't in the NTA's implementation plan, so it is unlikely to start before 2018, which means it won't be finished before about 2023.

the Mater stop box project was about making sure the Mater site was free for other uses.

That's the back-up plan, from the horse's mouth.
Indeed, north of Broadstone.

But it still very much forms part of their longer term plan for public transport in the Greater Dublin Area up until 2030. The 2030 Vision document includes Metro North and DU. This particular implementation plan runs until 2018 and takes into consideration the current economic circumstances. The Long Term plan hasn't changed.

monument

Re routes for Luas to Airport: it could go around Finglas, it could go along the N2, or a mix of the N2 and the green space in west Finglas.

The industrial estate north of Broombridge isn't really of high value and really is not that much of a barrier in any case.

richiek83 wrote: »

But it still very much forms part of their longer term plan for public transport in the Greater Dublin Area up until 2030. The 2030 Vision document includes Metro North and DU. This particular implementation plan runs until 2018 and takes into consideration the current economic circumstances. The Long Term plan hasn't changed.

Nor has it been approved. It's still in draft status last time I checked.

cgcsb

DebDynamite wrote: »

Apologies for bumping the thread.

We're thinking of putting a bid in on a house which is beside one of the proposed Metro North stops, so just wondering if anyone has any idea of the likelihood of the Metro North ever going ahead? It would really influence our decision to buy if there's a good possiblity it will be happening.

I see the RPA will be reviewing the project in 2015 but that enabling works at the Mater stop have already begun (possibly already finished?), so that seems hopeful enough.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

In the upcoming budget you'll get a good indication of what you need to know. Basically if the budget is as harsh as planned, that means that the 2015 budget is likely to be more generous. The next election is in 2016, meaning that the government will be looking for votes, assuming that all goes to plan economy wise. I can see the FG government reviving their capital expenditure plan and going ahead with the development.

Even if in 2015, the decision is to defer construction again, I believe the project will still go ahead at a later date, simply because necessity demands it.

cgcsb

monument wrote: »

The RPA are pushing the idea of surface Luas to the airport (via Broombridge and Finglas) and Irish Rail are pushing their Dart spur idea, so I would not bet the price of a house on Metro North being built.

This is incorrect. Check your sources.

cgcsb

monument wrote: »

Yes, they are. Quietly.

The minister did not come up with the idea him self -- he was fed it quietly the RPA.

Source?

monument

cgcsb wrote: »

Source?

I've heard the minister mention it, I think on Radio One or possablly on The Last Word.

It's also mentioned online here as something the minister wants to see going ahead: http://www.thestar.ie/star/new-luas-line-on-track-for-airport/

And long before all of the above I heard it from a good source that the RPA were looking at it.

I would say it would be madness if the RPA did not look at it as a possabe option when looking at extending BXD northwards.

TheBandicoot

jd wrote: »

You'd use the old Broadstone-Mullingar alignment between Broadstone and Liffey Junction. Where would you go North of here for airport?
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=53.363577,-6.2813&spn=0.003297,0.009238&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=53.363577,-6.2813&panoid=-BBlzGWYVPmY86Bejk75YA&cbp=12,173.84,,0,2.85

You seem to be behind the times, Luas BXD is using that alignment, is fully funded and is going ahead. It is proceeding north from the linked point, and then curving west along the railway line to terminate next to the Broombridge train station.

With some modification to the Broome Bridge itself, re alignment of the railway and CPOing some back gardens in Rathoath estate, it should be possible to claim some of the marshy/wasteland and thread the Luas just south of the railway, heading onto the new bridge at O'Reilly's crossing and then head north into Finglas. Or maybe there is an easier way. A new bridge over the railway and canal would do it, but then you would be leaving Broomebridge tram stop on a spur like Connolly.

jd

TheBandicoot wrote: »

You seem to be behind the times, Luas BXD is using that alignment, is fully funded and is going ahead. It is proceeding north from the linked point, and then curving west along the railway line to terminate next to the Broombridge train station.

Sorry, yes, I know that, should have been clearer. I meant what route would it take from Broombridge to Airport. Sure didn't Leo steal the nomenclature and was referring to the BXD route as the interconnector.

TheBandicoot

jd wrote: »

Sorry, yes, I know that, should have been clearer. I meant what route would it take from Broombridge to Airport. Sure didn't Leo steal the nomenclature and was referring to the BXD route as the interconnector.

I think the route Victor has a few posts up is reasonable, I just don't see how the line can be made to join up with that route from the planned Broombridge terminus, without some difficult engineering or CPO.

cabrasnake

monument wrote: »

Yes, they are. Quietly.

So quietly, you were the only person who heard it. Ignore those voices.

monument

cabrasnake wrote: »

So quietly, you were the only person who heard it. Ignore those voices.

Myself and Leo must me hearing the same voices!

Aard

Ok all the grapevining has me confused. Is the NTA really considering a Luas spur into Finglas? Not beyond the realms of reality, but certainly the first I've heard of it bar the very vague "possible extention to Finglas" arrow on the BXD maps. Furthermore, are the NTA considering extending this spur to the Airport as an alternative to MN? Seeing as how MN didn't get a look in recently, this rumour is very worrying. If it is true, why the sudden roll-back on MN? Cost?

What exactly is the rumour?

cgcsb

LUAS BXD being extended to the airport cannot, by it's very nature 'replace metro North because it'd only serve one of Metro North's trip generators, i.e. the airport and that service would be a slower one than existing bus services because of the indirect route. Extending BXD to the airport will only have a material benefit people travelling from/to the airport to/from Finglas and Cabra. Not a bad idea per say but you wouldn't be getting much benefit for the cost and it destroys the future probability of building sustainable suburban communities in North West Dublin along an extended BXD route.

BonkeyDonker

While the airport may not be truly cost effective - running as far as Finglas should be doable and only adds a short run at the end. Indeed you could say that ending in Finglas would be more effective than at Broombridge as you actually end in a major population base, rather than beside a industrial estate.

xper

TheBandicoot wrote: »

....With some modification to the Broome Bridge itself, re alignment of the railway and CPOing some back gardens in Rathoath estate, it should be possible to claim some of the marshy/wasteland and thread the Luas just south of the railway, heading onto the new bridge at O'Reilly's crossing and then head north into Finglas. Or maybe there is an easier way. A new bridge over the railway and canal would do it, but then you would be leaving Broomebridge tram stop on a spur like Connolly.

I don't think anything too convoluted is required to head north from Broombridge. It has been stated from the outset of route selection of the Broombridge route that a future extension to Finglas would be accommodated and the design of the Broombridge stop has the tram platforms at the east end of the rail platforms, pointedly leaving a landscaped area with no built infrastructure between the end of the tram lines and Broombridge Road (Map). I reckon a ramp similar to those used at Sandyford or Charlemont would fit there and take the tram up and over the rail line and canal. A little rearrangement of access roads for the industrial estate should be possible to allow the line to use the Broombridge Road alignment and then you have a clear run across Tolka Valley Park and through the green areas between the housing estates into central Finglas. Things get a bit sticky if you want to head further towards north Finglas but a short tunnel in the region of Mellowes Road to take you to the N2 alignment might be justified.

Given Finglas would be presumably be a significant trip generator, I've always thought it odd that the extension hasn't been fully part of the Route D plan from the outset or at least brought into it when the BX and D routes were combined into one project.

I would think that, if going further from Finglas, heading west to Blanchardstown would be far more useful long-term and leave the airport for Metro North. Either option would make the green line very long for a tram system, especially if the B2 extension (to Fassaroe/Bray) is ever constructed.

monument

Aard wrote: »

Ok all the grapevining has me confused. Is the NTA really considering a Luas spur into Finglas? Not beyond the realms of reality, but certainly the first I've heard of it bar the very vague "possible extention to Finglas" arrow on the BXD maps. Furthermore, are the NTA considering extending this spur to the Airport as an alternative to MN? Seeing as how MN didn't get a look in recently, this rumour is very worrying. If it is true, why the sudden roll-back on MN? Cost?

What exactly is the rumour?

See this post. Needless to say, we're at "it's a possibility" stage, not a firm plan.

cgcsb wrote: »

LUAS BXD being extended to the airport cannot, by it's very nature 'replace metro North because it'd only serve one of Metro North's trip generators, i.e. the airport and that service would be a slower one than existing bus services because of the indirect route.

Sure, but the BRT route to Swords planned by the NTA will serve most of the Metro North route.

That the route to Swords is being pushed forward, when it was not on the original list of BRT routes to do first, is clearest sign that Metro North is at least long, long-fingered.

cgcsb wrote: »

Extending BXD to the airport will only have a material benefit people travelling from/to the airport to/from Finglas and Cabra. Not a bad idea per say but you wouldn't be getting much benefit for the cost

Funny, that sounds a lot like like the people who said that everybody would stick to the bus rather than use the red line because bus would be faster and because of this the line would fail. I'm talking about all along the line, but the city centre section is still the classic example of people on mass deifying the "the bus is quicker" thinking.

Let's looks at the numbers, I'm not great at numbers, so I'm open to corrections:

BXD is estimated at 21-24mins to/from the Green to Broombridge.

The Luas red line according to the journey planner takes 25min to get from the start of the Naas Road to Tallaght -- that's an average speed of 20km/h. Given just over half of any option of a route from Broombridge to the airport is over open ground with few places to stop, let's say an average speed of 25km/h.

So, that would be 24mins + 21-24mins for BXD. So, you're talking about a travel time of 45-48mins.

Aircoach is 41min to the airport from the closest stop to the Green and less frequent than Luas.

The 4-7min time difference would be ate up by walking time or time waiting for a less frequent service.

Conclusion: Direct Luas link via Broombridge to the airport could be attractive to the catchment area of most or all of the Green Line, compared to current bus services. It would be nothing like Metro North's killer estimated time, but attractive compared to current public transport options.

cgcsb wrote: »

and it destroys the future probability of building sustainable suburban communities in North West Dublin along an extended BXD route. You;d

Where exactly in North West Dublin are you talking about? And why would you rule out two branches after Broombridge?

cabrasnake

What Varadkar or Moonan think about Luas or even a more affordable Hornby scheme to the airport is irrelevant.
They are doomed and will be out on their ear in 2016.
Next Gov will be left of centre

donvito99

cabrasnake wrote: »

Next Gov will be left of centre

Which probably increases the chances of a rail connection with the airport?!

murphaph

cabrasnake wrote: »

Next Gov will be left of centre

Irrelevant. The deficit will remain.

I wish they could bite the bullet and tunnel from Stephen's Green to Broadstone. It's not THAT far. German cities the size of Dublin started tunneling under their city centres decades ago to route core tram routes through them and provide full segregation in the most congested inner cities. Dublin is set to build more surface lines that should be underground from the beginning really. I find it all quite depressing.

We should have looked at the Harcourt and Broadstone alignments and aimed to link them by tunnel for the Luas. We always pick the mickey mouse "solution" in Ireland. Imagine the Green Line being able to run more or less completely segregated from Finglas to Cherrywood. That's how it should be. The Airport should be served by MN as currently planned, with a future extension towards Tallaght being the ultimate goal.

cabrasnake

murphaph wrote: »

Irrelevant. The deficit will remain.

Clueless. EIB will be part of a PPP package.

monument

cabrasnake wrote: »

What Varadkar or Moonan think about Luas or even a more affordable Hornby scheme to the airport is irrelevant.
They are doomed and will be out on their ear in 2016.
Next Gov will be left of centre

The point is that Leo isn't coming up with Luas to the airport on his own. It's based on options outlined to him by the RPA.

Which "left if centre" party has Metro North high on their agenda?

cgcsb

monument wrote: »

Sure, but the BRT route to Swords planned by the NTA will serve most of the Metro North route.

That the route to Swords is being pushed forward, when it was not on the original list of BRT routes to do first, is clearest sign that Metro North is at least long, long-fingered.

The NTA report concluded that the Swords BRT route would have insufficient capacity for the demand and that it'd be a waste of money as a higher capacity option would then need to be constructed anyway.

monument

cgcsb wrote: »

The NTA report concluded that the Swords BRT route would have insufficient capacity for the demand and that it'd be a waste of money as a higher capacity option would then need to be constructed anyway.

I remember reading something along those lines but not quite as stark about it being a waste of money... Anyway...

The NTA have since confirmed that Swords is now on their list of the first few BRT routes which are to be advanced. Google "Swords BRT" for a reference on that.

strassenwo!f

murphaph wrote: »

Irrelevant. The deficit will remain.

I wish they could bite the bullet and tunnel from Stephen's Green to Broadstone. It's not THAT far. German cities the size of Dublin started tunneling under their city centres decades ago to route core tram routes through them and provide full segregation in the most congested inner cities. Dublin is set to build more surface lines that should be underground from the beginning really. I find it all quite depressing.

We should have looked at the Harcourt and Broadstone alignments and aimed to link them by tunnel for the Luas. We always pick the mickey mouse "solution" in Ireland. Imagine the Green Line being able to run more or less completely segregated from Finglas to Cherrywood. That's how it should be. The Airport should be served by MN as currently planned, with a future extension towards Tallaght being the ultimate goal.

Linking the Harcourt and Broadstone alignments is absolutely the right idea.

A Harcourt line - Broadstone line tunnel, together with eventually building the metronorth and extending it towards the southwest of the city would give, essentially, two diagonal alignments of largely unimpeded metro/luas lines linking, respectively, the south-east and north-west, and the south-west and north/north-east of the major population area in county Dublin. Only, at most, one change needed to get to any of them.

The major problem is that there is still an influential body of opinion which feels that the metronorth (after it is eventually built) should be extended out to Cherrywood by means of an upgrade of the luas green line - to some extent (but not totally) because the green line is already there.

It is obvious that this idea, which would essentially involve building a north to south-east metro parallel to the DART, would be a disaster in the long-term for Dublin commuters, as it would render a very large number of potential one-change journeys well nigh impossible.

The authorities seem set on this cross-city luas line, presumably because of lack of cash at the moment, and they want to do something to improve Dublin's transport. But it would be good if it is planned in such a way that an eventual upgrade to what you suggest would be feasible.

monument

You see how hard it is for MN to progress but you think both MN and a Broadstone-Harcourt tunnel are possible?

Where would the tunnel portals for this Broadstone-Harcourt tunnel be? A bus depot area which is at least partly -- the middle of it -- up for redevelopment? And the golf club at Milltown? Or is anybody suggesting a tunnel portal at the green???

If it's Milltown the distance isn't all that short after all, if it's the green the suggestion is madness.

Exactly which line-to-line one connection transfers would a green line upgrade stop? You'd be still connecting Luas, Dart and Metro at a good few points.

cabrasnake

monument wrote: »

The point is that Leo isn't coming up with Luas to the airport on his own. It's based on options outlined to him by the RPA.

Which "left if centre" party has Metro North high on their agenda?

Which one hasn't?
MN is a political decision. During construction it'll be a net income for the Gov.
Finance is available. Inda is opposed to MN. But FG will be gone in 2016. Infrastructure will be a high priority for the new Gov.

Luas to the airport is idle talk to look busy.

TheBandicoot

I would much rather see Metro North extended by heading South-West and tunnelling under the likes of Rathmines, Harold's Cross, Terenure, Templogue out to Tallaght, but this is all blue sky stuff.

monument

cabrasnake wrote: »

Which one hasn't?
MN is a political decision. During construction it'll be a net income for the Gov.
Finance is available. Inda is opposed to MN. But FG will be gone in 2016. Infrastructure will be a high priority for the new Gov.

Luas to the airport is idle talk to look busy.

I don't know of any party which has Metro North high on their agenda, so could you please share with us which ones you're talking about?

It's only been mentioned in 7 Dail debates this year and the bulk of those mentions are from FG or FF: http://www.kildarestreet.com/search/?s=%22Metro+north%22

TheBandicoot wrote: »

I would much rather see Metro North extended by heading South-West and tunnelling under the likes of Rathmines, Harold's Cross, Terenure, Templogue out to Tallaght, but this is all blue sky stuff.

That is mainly blue sky because that route is mainly areas with a far from ideal population density to support the cost of an underground metro. And there's very few trip generators along the route.

At least MN more density and trip generators such as the airport, major hospitals, a rail/Dart connection, a university, a large stadium etc.

TheBandicoot

Yeah, fair enough, perhaps Luas and BRT is a better option for those areas. When I lived there if you got the right bus going up Clanbrassil St/Patrick St it was a very quick journey into town. I've read the feasibility study into a Luas line down the Harold's Cross road, I think the conclusion was it doesn't pass a cost/benefit analysis.

I fully support building MN as currently designed, BTW, it is badly needed.