Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Sponge Bob

Spending €100m on Ennis - Athenry is not what will derail MN or DU. What will derail them is that our bankers living along the DORT have demanded that the taxpayer subsidise their €100k a year average salaries ( in Anglo today) because they have private school fees to pay and appearances to maintain.

Lenny poured more money into the Howth to Dalkey professional classes EVERY MONTH than the ENTIRE WRC has cost to date. Sadly Kenny and Gilmore are continuing these subsidies.

We are only comparing relative wastes of money all the same.

OurLadyofKnock

DWCommuter wrote: »

We blew billions and billions in the good times and built little in terms of rail projects. Now we are blowing billions and billions of borrowed money just to keep the ship afloat. How can any of you possibly be positive about MN etc.???

Ireland is not so much a nation as a psycholoigical disorder.

BluntGuy

The document with regards to Metro North, is pretty much a re-iteration of what we already know and what has already been published. The only notable exception that I picked up on is that the attitude of the markets toward us has been acknowledged.

There is however external risk to the Metro North PPP given the current economic circumstances and the recent International Monetary Fund and EU intervention in Ireland. The current programme for Metro North envisages the project reaching financial close in late 2012 with engagement with debt funders required in late 2011 or early 2012.

I'm sure the financial close was "Late 2011" before, but the deadline keeps magically shifting. Now even in the best case scenario, construction on the project proper won't even have started before it was meant to be finished.

DWCommuter

Its over. I won't bother posting the video.:D

Lets all wake up tomorrow and stop smelling roses. Try some black pudding instead. Denny will do.;) Get the frying pans out. The RPA are heading for the NRA and vice versa. We have balls it up.

dermo88

I hold no grudges towards Fine Gael if they are forced down the road to cutbacks and make do and mend. We must never forget who inflicted this atrocity on the Irish people and its economy.

Varadkar may be right wing, but I hope he is honest and competent. He might not make popular decisions, but I hope they are the right decisions at the time.

If it means postponing, its because Fianna Fail STOLE the money. Its because Noel Dempsey handed over contracts to his brother - Lorcan Dempsey and other cronies. Martin Culllen did the same, and I'd say there was a lot of kickbacks and Kimchi going around. They are responsible, and are for the next 2 to 3 years until Fine Gael starts having an impact at cleaning the mess.

Make no bones about it. Generally, for urban travel, buses are a cheap, ugly, nasty means of travel. This perception is not helped by the pervasive presence of the anti social Anto Mc Thuggerty, and Skangerette Skrunchair with her 4 illegitimi by 4 different misbehaving on board. That can be handled on Luas or DART where there is a clear definition of WHEN the torture will end, but on a Bus - with jams etc, its unknown. They do nothing and less to get motorists out of cars. But that does not mean they should be completely replaced by rail.

Who was the glorified trainspotter Derek?

Zebra3

dermo88 wrote: »

I hold no grudges towards Fine Gael if they are forced down the road to cutbacks and make do and mend. We must never forget who inflicted this atrocity on the Irish people and its economy.

FG backed FF's theft from the Irish taxpayer.

dynamick

I think it is possible that Leo V will defer MN with the excuse that DU is a better project as advanced by Frank McDonald. This gives him a year or two of breathing space while DU continues through planning.

DWCommuter

As in this?

DWCommuter wrote: »

One final scenario that I wouldn't rule out (but highly unlikely) is the postponement of MN and in an attempt to look like they are prioritising projects, claim DU is to be brought forward. A real buying time exercise, because DU will suffer from the same problems.

dynamick

yup. pretend they are prioritising DU. It's what McDonald asked for.

right now I can't see how they can get any PPPs off the ground so unless the EIB comes up with an extra billion or two, it can't be financed out of the capital budget.

DWCommuter

dynamick wrote: »

yup. pretend they are prioritising DU. It's what McDonald asked for.

right now I can't see how they can get any PPPs off the ground so unless the EIB comes up with an extra billion or two, it can't be financed out of the capital budget.

Agreed.

And with todays news that the NRA are admitting that its a real struggle to get a road PPP off the ground, its only a matter of time until the Government and RPA fess up. If LV uses DU as an excuse, thats all it will be though, because the tunnel aspect of DU is PPP so will suffer the same financial shakes.

Pete_Cavan

DWCommuter wrote: »

Agreed.

And with todays news that the NRA are admitting that its a real struggle to get a road PPP off the ground, its only a matter of time until the Government and RPA fess up. If LV uses DU as an excuse, thats all it will be though, because the tunnel aspect of DU is PPP so will suffer the same financial shakes.

It will be two years before DU goes to tender, by which time we should be in a better financial situation. DU will be a lot more attractive to private investors because it draws on two existing transport corridors and greatly increases the capacity on all our Dart lines. The existance, and success, of DU would also strengthen the case for MN. IMO we have a better chance of seeing both DU and MN started within this decade if DU is built first.

DWCommuter

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It will be two years before DU goes to tender, by which time we should be in a better financial situation. DU will be a lot more attractive to private investors because it draws on two existing transport corridors and greatly increases the capacity on all our Dart lines. The existance, and success, of DU would also strengthen the case for MN. IMO we have a better chance of seeing both DU and MN started within this decade if DU is built first.

I was always in favour of DU being built first, but I don't subscribe to your view that in 2 years time we'll be in a better position financially. Even if we settle the market nerves and get used to frugality, I believe the political intent to implement (which was never strong in the first place) will have disappeared completely.

dynamick

Today's article suggests no new transport projects - just maintenance and railway safety.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0405/1224293869961.html

Varadkar to review road and rail projects
A REVIEW of spending on new road and rail projects has been announced by Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar.

Mr Varadkar said he will review each new transport infrastructure project against the need to ensure existing roads and rail routes are properly maintained.

The review follows the publication by the National Roads Authority of a new report which found almost €3 billion is needed to make the State’s local regional and national secondary road network safe.

The Minister’s review could potentially halt key transport investment programmes including Metro North, the reopening of the Navan Railway line and new road building schemes in Clare, Galway, Longford and Wicklow, which were being progressed under the last government’s four-year plan.

In a statement last night Mr Varadkar told The Irish Times: “If we stuck to the plan left to us by the last government, not only would we be unable to keep up with the backlog of repairs, but the situation would actually get worse.”

The Minister who has in recent weeks been briefed by senior officials on key issues facing the department is understood to be concerned after the National Roads Authority put the cost of the backlog of urgent repairs to the non-primary routes at €2.7 billion. This figure was in advance of the severe weather conditions at the start of the year.

“Before we start work on any new infrastructure projects, we have to ensure that existing infrastructure is properly maintained. That is why I am conducting a full review of capital spending with a view to prioritising the investments that we already have,” Mr Varadkar said.

Last night a press spokesman for Mr Varadkar said he could not say which projects would “categorically not proceed” but emphasised there had been “a change in priorities” and that the thinking was moving towards maintenance of existing roads and railways.

Aard

Leo, you're killing me here.

OurLadyofKnock

“ That is why I am conducting a full review of capital spending with a view to prioritising the investments that we already have,” Mr Varadkar said.

Problem-Reaction-Solution. Classic Machiavellian fabricated "dangers"...

Create the Problem: "Our railways and roads are unsafe!" (forget that all of it brand new)

Generate a Reaction: "Jaysus Bridie, I am not getting on another train or using them mosherways...they are in bits! Death traps call Liveline now!!!"

Provide the Solution: "Before we start work on any new infrastructure projects, we have to ensure that existing infrastructure is properly maintained."


Do you still think you live in a democracy? Are you still deluded enough to believe that voting changes things? Do you actually still think people like me who refused to vote after the Lisbon 2 votes are "highly irresponible citizens who are not cherishing an important personal right..."

Get real folks. You have duped again.

dowlingm

Well, we know from Cahir, Broadmeadow and Limerick Junction that IE still have lots of stuff needing fixing.

monument

http://www.dublincity.ie/Press/dccPressPacks/YDYV/Pages/Results(1stSurvey).aspx

In spite of the high levels of media publicity (both positive and negative) about Metro north over 85% of panel members were positive about the impact this project could have on Dublin (with 47% strongly supporting the idea)

Jack Noble

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/varadkar-seeks-to-privatise-building-of-metro-2611216.html

THE Government yesterday raised the prospect of privatising the Metro North light-rail project in order to get it built.
Transport Minister Leo Varadkar said if the private sector fully funded the project, then he would allow it to retain all the fares for up to 100 years.

He also refused to sign off on enabling works over doubts about PPP funding for main contract.

Any views on this latest development?

Should the State give up all fare revenue from Metro for 50 to 100 years just to get the project built?

And if it succeeds, what will it mean for Dart Underground?

ei.sdraob

Jack Noble wrote: »

Should the State give up all fare revenue from Metro for 50 to 100 years just to get the project built?

Why not? if the company decides to raise prices then people will use alternatives like buses

its different to giving a monopoly to the m50 operator where there aint other alternatives to get around.

Jack Noble

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Why not? if the company decides to raise prices then people will use alternatives like buses

its different to giving a monopoly to the m50 operator where there aint other alternatives to get around.

But will a private company go for such a scheme? Is a 100-year franchise attractive enough to entice a private funder to take all the risk?

What will it mean for network integration? Will the State have to provide a subsidy to keep fares in line with Dart and Luas as part of an integrated PT ticket?

What about expansion? Will this mean that whoever builds Metro North will also get to build and run Metro West, which runs into Metro North, on the same terms? And the planned extension on to the Green line Luas or the Tallaght line through Kimmage? Or any new Metro lines the private firm may suggest or the State may want to build in future?

I do think it appears attractive on the surface but there are an awful lot of questions to be answered from where I see it.

And, I stand to be corrected here, but isn't this exactly what Cormac Rabbitt and Rudi Monahan proposed in the mid-90s with the Japanese-funded project - and which was rejected by the FF-PD government of Bertie Ahern?

DWCommuter

Jack Noble wrote: »

And, I stand to be corrected here, but isn't this exactly what Cormac Rabbitt and Rudi Monahan proposed in the mid-90s with the Japanese-funded project - and which was rejected by the FF-PD government of Bertie Ahern?

Yup.

Jack Noble

DWCommuter wrote: »

Yup.

Slow learners indeed.

Jesus but the more I think of the mess FF made and the legacy they left us - and transport planning is but a tiny part of it - the more angry I get. It is not good for my health.

But the Irish people have only themselves to blame - they kept voting for them and the quick buck.

From today's Irish Times - Michael Collins had the people of this country well sussed out back in 1916:

“Too damn careful and cautious. A few old men aren’t too bad – but most of the young ones are the limit. The little bit of material prosperity has ruined them.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0406/1224294006509.html

DWCommuter

Jack Noble wrote: »

Slow learners indeed.

Jesus but the more I think of the mess FF made and the legacy they left us - and transport planning is but a tiny part of it - the more angry I get. It is not good for my health.

But the Irish people have only themselves to blame - they kept voting for them and the quick buck.

From today's Irish Times - Michael Collins had the people of this country well sussed out back in 1916:

Im amazed there isn't a lot more anger over this on the forum.

mgmt

Jack Noble wrote: »

And, I stand to be corrected here, but isn't this exactly what Cormac Rabbitt and Rudi Monahan proposed in the mid-90s with the Japanese-funded project - and which was rejected by the FF-PD government of Bertie Ahern?

These boys are still plugging away. http://www.darganproject.com/index_files/Dargan_Project.htm

Jack Noble

mgmt wrote: »

These boys are still plugging away. http://www.darganproject.com/index_files/Dargan_Project.htm

That's Cormac Rabbitt - Rudi Monahan passed away in 2004.

https://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2006/oct/29/we-cant-afford-to-ignore-this-project/

http://www.tribune.ie/article/2004/feb/15/rudi-monahan/

OurLadyofKnock

Jack Noble wrote: »

Slow learners indeed.

Jesus but the more I think of the mess FF made and the legacy they left us - and transport planning is but a tiny part of it - the more angry I get. It is not good for my health.

To be fair now the Dargan Metro Scheme had many flaws (mainly capacity) - but this could of been overcome if a major partner with the real technical experience had of come on board to add technical credibility.

But you are correct - the FF/PD/Greens governments of the last decade or so will be considered the greatest social and economic disaster since Dev's trade war with the UK in the 40's and 50's.

The BA government also refused to join up the Luas because a handful of city centre traders complained. Bertie also said something that Irish people culturally would never travel in trains inside tunnels.

bg07

I don't understand this proposal to have private companies building the project on their own. If such companies are unwilling to enter a PPP and share the risk and debt burden with the state why they would want to build it privately and take all the risk.

For example the Luas fare income covers the operation cost with a little to spare. It comes no where near to repaying the money it cost to build it. Metro north would cost a great deal more to build than Luas however even still it not be sustainable to have fares on it much higher than on the Luas therefore it would be impossible to recoup the cost of the project for a private investor without government money.

To be honest I think this is just another attempt to pretend the project is still alive and likely to happen when in fact the project died for the medium to long term the moment the government signed the bank guarantee in September 2008. Any large project that had not started by then will not see the light for day for at least 15 years i.e. the interurban motorways made it but MN and DU missed the boat. This was the choice made by previous political masters and there is little that can be done now about it.

monument

RTE -- on Front Line, I think -- the other night showed a clip of Leo saying there would be no further money going into the worst off banks when FG are in Government.

Yet, they are in Government and there is further money going into the two banks he mentioned. Even if they were to wind them down yesterday, they would have still needed further money.

Leo can be great with sound bites.

Jack Noble

Varadkar will be discussing his private Metro North plan on the Right Hook on Newstalk in the next few minutes - Shane Coleman, ex of Sunday Tribune, will be interviewing him. Coleman would be one of the few journalists I am aware of who is familiar with Metro.

He is wrote the two pieces on Cormac Rabbitt and Rudi Monahan that I linked to above.

Jack Noble

Leo was waffling his hole off on Newstalk re Metro, Dart and Luas.

Shocking stuff.

Either master your brief Leo or stay the f**k away from a microphone.

Jesus wept.:(