Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

lucernarian

loyatemu wrote: »

looking at that map in the IT, it seems a missed (and relatively cheap) opportunity to continue into Donabate at the Northern end - you'd need a bridge over the M1 but other than that it's open countryside and you could build a Metro stop just south of the railway station.

This could work very well, although ridership may not be huge initially with the planning situation as-is. I hope the final proposal allows for a "phase 2", with the ability to develop towards Donabate on that phase.

loyatemu

lucernarian wrote: »

This could work very well, although ridership may not be huge initially with the planning situation as-is. I hope the final proposal allows for a "phase 2", with the ability to develop towards Donabate on that phase.

it would provide connections off the northern line (which is being upgraded to DART), so direct access to the Airport, north and south city, Sandyford etc from Skerries, Balbriggan, Drogheda and Dundalk.

It's an extra 4km, through flat open country. Wouldn't add much to the overall cost and probably only 5 mins to the end to end running time.

CatInABox

loyatemu wrote: »

it would provide connections off the northern line (which is being upgraded to DART), so direct access to the Airport, north and south city, Sandyford etc from Skerries, Balbriggan, Drogheda and Dundalk.

It's an extra 4km, through flat open country. Wouldn't add much to the overall cost and probably only 5 mins to the end to end running time.

Honestly, I'd prefer to just get the current Metro Link plan built first. Every other plan that could be added on to it is another possible delay. Once construction starts, then plans for extensions and modifications to existing Public Transport systems can be progressed.

I'd prefer to have this scheme started in 2021, rather than delayed for a "commission" to look into the best possible routing, etc.

lucernarian

loyatemu wrote: »

it would provide connections off the northern line (which is being upgraded to DART), so direct access to the Airport, north and south city, Sandyford etc from Skerries, Balbriggan, Drogheda and Dundalk.

It's an extra 4km, through flat open country. Wouldn't add much to the overall cost and probably only 5 mins to the end to end running time.

You don't need to sell the idea to me . I'd be completely in favour of it. I think it's not on the agenda right now, but all that's needed is protection of an alignment across those fields plus the ability to have it extended from the Estuary station, for a Phase 2 option. The scheme is quite big as it is, and I'm suspicious of the €3 billion budget with construction inflation the way it is.

MJohnston

strassenwo!f wrote: »

By far the biggest destination in Dublin is the city centre.

As you said yourself, about 4 pages back, it's only a 10 minute walk from the Cabra LUAS stop to this proposed Whitworth station. That sounds to me like quite a bit of overlap for lines on each of which the largest single group of users will be trying to get into and out of the city centre.

I hope it can also be taken as irrelevant that a part of the current LUAS line travels east-west near this area. The bulk of traffic on the Broadstone alignment will eventually be travelling to/from Finglas and beyond.

There thus needs to be an explanation of why these two lines into and out of the city are planned to be so close together.



Indeed, there's no obvious overlap at the Mater, and you would think that the Mater metro station and the Cabra LUAS stop should be sufficient for the needs of the residents and workers in and around Phibsboro. The proposed Whitworth station, just around 400 metres from the Mater, and 10 minutes walk from the Cabra LUAS stop, does seem a bit like overkill for rapid services into and out of the city centre, which, I repeat, is the most popular destination in Dublin.

Drumcondra, on the other hand, has a rail service, but it does take a rather circuitous route into the city and doesn't really hit the very busiest areas. A direct metro route via Drumcondra and the Mater (or somewhere near there) would seem, to me, to prevent this catchment area overlap, be nicely located almost halfway between the DART line and the Green LUAS, and would give more people (in more areas) a rapid route into and out of the city.

You use a lot of words to say very little, which gives me a headache reading your posts, like how can I be reading all these words and not actually finding any meaning in them?

I guess your complaints are two-fold: first that the Whitworth stop being close to the Cabra Luas stop means both those lines are too close together? That makes no sense, they approach that point from completely different directions, and move away from that point in completely different directions. Having individual stations nearby is actually considered a benefit in most other cities transport networks, as it provides vital service interchanges (ie. access to the airport for people living in Finglas or Royal Canal Park.

Your second point appears to be that Drumcondra is badly served by this Whitworth station, but I'd point out that Drumcondra train station is almost exactly the same walking distance from Whitworth as the Cabra Luas stop. A large amount of Drumcondra would be very well served by this station.

I'll also point out that in all your complaints about stations being too close together, you want Drumcondra and Mater stations for Metro, which would be closer together than any of the other combinations I've mentioned above.

D.L.R.

This is a vast improvement to the original plan. If we've learned nothing else from Luas Cross City, its that we should think very carefully about building boom era FF designed projects.

- Tara is a vast improvement over the extravagantly pointless O'Connell Bridge station. It will tie the network together nicely.

- SSGE allows the butchering of priceless parkland to be avoided, and the DU interchange can simply be shifted eastward to meet it. Also opens up this part of the city centre to mass transit. Merrion Row, Baggot St, etc are hives of activity.

- O'Connell St also getting a station means these three stops cover the city centre more comprehensively than the original plan.

All in all very good news for the city. Now can we just build it, pretty please?

tom1ie

D.L.R. wrote: »

This is a vast improvement to the original plan. If we've learned nothing else from Luas Cross City, its that we should think very carefully about building boom era FF designed projects.

- Tara is a vast improvement over the extravagantly pointless O'Connell Bridge station. It will tie the network together nicely.

- SSGE allows the butchering of priceless parkland to be avoided, and the DU interchange can simply be shifted eastward to meet it. Also opens up this part of the city centre to mass transit. Merrion Row, Baggot St, etc are hives of activity.

- O'Connell St also getting a station means these three stops cover the city centre more comprehensively than the original plan.

All in all very good news for the city. Now can we just build it, pretty please?

How far away will the ssge stop be from the Luas stop in terms of walking?

Idbatterim

D.L.R. wrote: »

This is a vast improvement to the original plan. If we've learned nothing else from Luas Cross City, its that we should think very carefully about building boom era FF designed projects.

- Tara is a vast improvement over the extravagantly pointless O'Connell Bridge station. It will tie the network together nicely.

- SSGE allows the butchering of priceless parkland to be avoided, and the DU interchange can simply be shifted eastward to meet it. Also opens up this part of the city centre to mass transit. Merrion Row, Baggot St, etc are hives of activity.

- O'Connell St also getting a station means these three stops cover the city centre more comprehensively than the original plan.

All in all very good news for the city. Now can we just build it, pretty please?

It is an improvement, but to call it vast, the line should be automated and driverless! that would be a significant step in the right direction!

BonnieSituation

tom1ie wrote: »

How far away will the ssge stop be from the Luas stop in terms of walking?

The length of SSG North-ish.

loyatemu

tom1ie wrote: »

How far away will the ssge stop be from the Luas stop in terms of walking?

would there be any reason to transfer from Luas to Metro at SSG, when you could do it at OCS and Charlemont instead?

MJohnston

loyatemu wrote: »

would there be any reason to transfer from Luas to Metro at SSG, when you could do it at OCS and Charlemont instead?

No guarantees yet that you'll be able to transfer at Charlemont - ie. we don't know where exactly the north section of the Green Line will be truncated in a world where the Metro exists. Green Line might possibly end up terminating at SSG instead.

Angry bird

Hopefully we'll see both metro link and DART expansion in place by 2027. Also by 2027 it would be smart to have planning permission in place for the 4 luas extensions in place ready to roll past 2027 and DART Underground as originally envisaged. The 2016-2035 Dublin transport strategy references this for later years, not ditched it. And orbital bus routes or BRT, and cycle or greenways per the strategy.

CreativeSen

Im liking this plan for Phibsborough/Drumcondra. The interchange with the the station in Drumcondra was the smart idea for placing it there but moving it to Cross Guns (10 mins walk) is allowing for an interchange with 2 main rail lines, so a potential major interchange.

I assume they would close the current Drumcondra train station if they were to build a new interchange at Cross Guns?

Stephen15

If the metro was to be extended to the green line in order to maximise the potential and speed of the metro I believe it would be nessecary to ban passengers from crossing the tracks meaning a metro train wouldn't have to crawl into a station this would mean either footbridges or underpasses would have to be built at certain stops some stations like Ballally and Dundrum already have ways of crossing to the other side without needing to cross the tracks.

The one station I would consider closing is Stillorgan if the the Green Line becomes metro. It is very near Sandyford if you put a tunnel portal at Milltown it would mean you could build an overpass for the Luas over the road as it's the only road crossing between Sandyford and Milltown.

strassenwo!f

MJohnston wrote: »

You use a lot of words to say very little, which gives me a headache reading your posts, like how can I be reading all these words and not actually finding any meaning in them?

Perhaps you're not spending enough time reading them, allowing yourself to absorb the points made.

MJohnston wrote: »

I guess your complaints are two-fold: first that the Whitworth stop being close to the Cabra Luas stop means both those lines are too close together? That makes no sense, they approach that point from completely different directions, and move away from that point in completely different directions. Having individual stations nearby is actually considered a benefit in most other cities transport networks, as it provides vital service interchanges (ie. access to the airport for people living in Finglas or Royal Canal Park.

No, they don't approach from completely different directions.

The most popular location in Dublin is the city centre. On any train, tram or bus in Dublin, the largest group of people want to get to or from there.

Under the proposed new metro system, the Whitworth station, the Mater metro station and the Cabra LUAS stop are all going to or from the city centre. They may all be heading northward to different locations, but they are all approaching from or going to the most popular destination in the country. And they are effectively duplicating each other in that task.

In my view, it is a mistake.

You also seem worried, in your above comment, that people from Finglas and elsewhere may have to wait to have a local interchange to get to the Airport. It would, of course, be lovely if Dublin could magic up a Munich-Style transport system right now, but it can't. It's not a priority now to try to provide such things..

MJohnston wrote: »

Your second point appears to be that Drumcondra is badly served by this Whitworth station, but I'd point out that Drumcondra train station is almost exactly the same walking distance from Whitworth as the Cabra Luas stop. A large amount of Drumcondra would be very well served by this station.

It's important to look at the area both west and east of Drumcondra

In all my time on boards.ie, I had never read any stuff from MJohnston about Whitworth Road, until the last couple of days, and now it's the truth, according to him.

sameoldname

Stephen15 wrote: »

If the metro was to be extended to the green line in order to maximise the potential and speed of the metro I believe it would be nessecary to ban passengers from crossing the tracks meaning a metro train wouldn't have to crawl into a station this would mean either footbridges or underpasses would have to be built at certain stops some stations like Ballally and Dundrum already have ways of crossing to the other side without needing to cross the tracks.

The one station I would consider closing is Stillorgan if the the Green Line becomes metro. It is very near Sandyford if you put a tunnel portal at Milltown it would mean you could build an overpass for the Luas over the road as it's the only road crossing between Sandyford and Milltown.

I was thinking about this myself. Would closing the pedestrian crossings that aren't near stations be an issue I wonder?

Also, will they close the Beachwood level crossing and the entrance to Alexandra College from Richmond Avenue? I think your suggestion of removing the Stillorgan stop would work and there's only one house there right beside the track that would have their surroundings negatively affected.

Neworder79

The high profile announcement of the Metro Link project without ANY detail from NTA has left a vacuum for lazy media, naysayers and vested interests to fill with misinformation. After recent Luas problems, it's in danger of turning into a PR mess that will turn more people off PT investment.

Just listened to another clueless debate on Today FM:
Irish Times Frank McDonell who should be better informed putting out scare story about Luas and Metro sharing track south of Charlemont and having to close Green line for months to "tear up tracks" and putting "sardine cans in a tunnel".

No mention of what a Metro is, benefits of speed frequency and capacity
No mention of the benefits of underground avoiding disruption of on-street works
No mention of integration with Dart / IE Rail / Luas, creating a network
No mention of Green Line capacity limits / always planned for Metro
No mention of P&R plans to free up pressure on busses/roads

yabadabado

Agree TFI really need to get out in front of this. Seems to only be negative stories about Metro.

CarlosHarpic

Neworder79 wrote: »

The high profile announcement of the Metro Link project without ANY detail from NTA has left a vacuum for lazy media, naysayers and vested interests to fill with misinformation. After recent Luas problems, it's in danger of turning into a PR mess that will turn more people off PT investment.

Just listened to another clueless debate on Today FM:
Irish Times Frank McDonell who should be better informed putting out scare story about Luas and Metro sharing track south of Charlemont and having to close Green line for months to "tear up tracks" and putting "sardine cans in a tunnel".

No mention of what a Metro is, benefits of speed frequency and capacity
No mention of the benefits of underground avoiding disruption of on-street works
No mention of integration with Dart / IE Rail / Luas, creating a network
No mention of Green Line capacity limits / always planned for Metro
No mention of P&R plans to free up pressure on busses/roads

Every since his fetish for the colonial monument on STG became his number one infrastructure priority, I have suspected that McDonald is completely insane. He reminds of the officer in The Bridge Over the River Kwai who ends up proud to serve the enemy.

Idbatterim

Neworder79 wrote: »

The high profile announcement of the Metro Link project without ANY detail from NTA has left a vacuum for lazy media, naysayers and vested interests to fill with misinformation. After recent Luas problems, it's in danger of turning into a PR mess that will turn more people off PT investment.

Just listened to another clueless debate on Today FM:
Irish Times Frank McDonell who should be better informed putting out scare story about Luas and Metro sharing track south of Charlemont and having to close Green line for months to "tear up tracks" and putting "sardine cans in a tunnel".

No mention of what a Metro is, benefits of speed frequency and capacity
No mention of the benefits of underground avoiding disruption of on-street works
No mention of integration with Dart / IE Rail / Luas, creating a network
No mention of Green Line capacity limits / always planned for Metro
No mention of P&R plans to free up pressure on busses/roads

why do they have mornons like frank mcdonald and colm mccarthy on. Didnt mccarthy say luas would be a white elephant?

tom1ie

Ffs! The horrendously lazy level of journalism and research just produced by frank McDonald on the last word. He really should educate himself on the project before he goes on a national radio station and start scaremongering people about metro.
Whoever is in charge of PR in nta or whatever the hell they're called has a lot to be answering for. They should be all over the radios calming people down and setting the record straight.
This crap annoys me.

BowSideChamp

<snip>Back seat modding by original poster- SM

WTF are you moaning about? You don't get to decide who can express an opinion on the internet.

Elessar

pclive wrote: »

The park and ride needs to be multi story and easily added to if required

You are right but I guarantee you this won't be the case. The park and ride will be just a regular car park which will be completely full by 8am every morning, not to mention costing a fortune in rates. Fingal CoCo is planning a huge housing expansion around swords and the lissenhall area (7000 units) so this will further exacerbate demand. Don't get me wrong I welcome the metro link but by the time it's up and running demand will much higher than anticipate for things like park and ride.

Someone please tell me these trains will be automated and driverless?

plodder

Not helped by the premature "leak" to the Irish Times obviously. I didn't hear him today, but generally I find it hard to understand where Frank McDonald is coming from (unlike Colm McCarthy, who is a natural public transport sceptic). You'd think he'd be in favour of this. He sounds like such a crank and curmudgeon sometimes.

yabadabado

The trains should be automated but I doubt they will be.

orangerhyme

plodder wrote: »

Not helped by the premature "leak" to the Irish Times obviously. I didn't hear him today, but generally I find it hard to understand where Frank McDonald is coming from (unlike Colm McCarthy, who is a natural public transport sceptic). You'd think he'd be in favour of this. He sounds like such a crank and curmudgeon sometimes.

I'll have to listen to this but normally I agree with Frank McDonald - he's been right about so much.
The Metro is a no-brainer, it's not just about the airport or the green line in the south side, it benefits everyone in Dublin and by extension the whole country.
It opens up huge tracks of land for affordable housing, takes buses and cars off the city centre streets, other bus and luas lines can feed into it.
It's expensive but has to happen.
The north side needs it.

I'd like to hear more about Dublin Industrial Estate in Glasnevin. With the transport hub at Phibsborough connecting luas, Metro and commuter rail, it will be so well served by public transport.

It's an huge area, far bigger than Irish glass bottle site which people got excited about.

I'd like a master plan to be drawn up by the best planning agencies possible and a town center type development phased in over 10 years.
A mix of housing, affordable housing, downsize apartments for retirees, high density apartments, retail, office, commercial park etc...

Grandeeod

D.L.R. wrote: »

This is a vast improvement to the original plan. If we've learned nothing else from Luas Cross City, its that we should think very carefully about building boom era FF designed projects.

- Tara is a vast improvement over the extravagantly pointless O'Connell Bridge station. It will tie the network together nicely.

- SSGE allows the butchering of priceless parkland to be avoided, and the DU interchange can simply be shifted eastward to meet it. Also opens up this part of the city centre to mass transit. Merrion Row, Baggot St, etc are hives of activity.

- O'Connell St also getting a station means these three stops cover the city centre more comprehensively than the original plan.

All in all very good news for the city. Now can we just build it, pretty please?

A vast improvement? Its essentially a combo of all previous routes since the early/mid noughties. The RPA trimmed lots off it to save on the cost when the Celtic Tiger was roaring like a force 10 wind on the Irish Sea. So now FG believe we can do it at a reasonable cost?

Are we still curving from Tara Street to OCS?

BowSideChamp

Where will the the metro enter the tunnel at Charlemount?

D.L.R.

Grandeeod wrote: »

A vast improvement? Its essentially a combo of all previous routes since the early/mid noughties. The RPA trimmed lots off it to save on the cost when the Celtic Tiger was roaring like a force 10 wind on the Irish Sea. So now FG believe we can do it at a reasonable cost?

Are we still curving from Tara Street to OCS?

I think its more a case of FG realising (finally) that serious money has to be spent on infrastructure.

It looks similar in cost to original Metro North but much more efficient and therefore better VALUE. Tiger era govts had a habit of throwing money around but not very wisely.

If FF got their finger out 10 years ago and actually built Metro North then great, I'd have taken that. But they didn't, and here we are.

VeryOwl

Grandeeod wrote: »

A vast improvement? Its essentially a combo of all previous routes since the early/mid noughties. The RPA trimmed lots off it to save on the cost when the Celtic Tiger was roaring like a force 10 wind on the Irish Sea. So now FG believe we can do it at a reasonable cost?

Are we still curving from Tara Street to OCS?

Indeed. What was the whole point of the so-called transport study review to make it cheaper?

"Metro North" was "unaffordable" but Revised Metro North/New Metro North/Link North with more underground running than the "unaffordable" metro and extra underground stations is going to be done for less? Now we'll hear the 90 metre trains are back and we will quite literally be back at square zero for no reason at all.