Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

yabadabado

Shurimgreat wrote: »

So they will be tearing up the Green Luas line extension to the Northside they spent hundreds of millions on in recent years?
What a complete waste of money so.

I think we can all agree the whole thing is an absolute shambles.

What are you raving about.

marno21

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Seriously.
All those people from Cherrywood and other stops will have to exit the LUAS at Sandyford and pile onto the metro. It would be mayhem in the morning. They would also have to exit the metro again at charlemont if they want to continue on to the city centre.
A person from cherrywood would have to travel on three different trams to get to the city centre and beyond under your suggestion.
With my proposal they would stay on the one tram all the way to the city centre, with only those heading on metro north having to get off once.

The alternative being Metro traffic (which will be a larger volume of people) piling onto a Luas tram.

Metro South is happening. It's not changing for your logic.

Shurimgreat

MJohnston wrote: »

A pretty big area is a bit of an exaggeration. Given the distances from Harcourt to Charlemont, or Dawson to SSG, or Westmoreland to Tara Street, people are going to walk rather than swap to a Luas for those last few metres. There's a balance between time spent transferring, and time gained on a faster mode of transport.



What do you mean by "after Charlemont"? That's a non-specific direction.

If the tunnel portal is where we expect it to be (as I outlined with an image in a very recent post), the Metro's Charlemont station will probably be an underground one, so the Luas Charlemont stop could be retained. The Metro tunnel tracks could then merge with the existing Green Line south of Charlemont without any destruction of tracks necessary. They would install turnback switches at Charlemont for the Luas to reverse direction from Charlemont back to the city centre.



What about it? It would be retained because it provides high value from Red and Green Line passengers from the North and West of the city.

Again you haven't thought it through.
Sandyford would be a mess for the reasons I said. Its not New York or London where you have numerous criss crossing lines and the trains are not doing a u turn.
Likewise Charlemont would be a mess. Those wanting to continue overground using your model would have to get off at Charlemont and continue. So those going from Cherrywood to a number of existant stops including on the current Green line to the north would need to travel on 3 different trams.

The simple solution is keep the existing green luas line as is and those wishing to use the metro north get off at Charlemont and go underground.

marno21

Metro coverage on the Last Word today.

https://www.todayfm.com/podcasts/83867/Dublin-Metro-Details-Revealed,-But-Will-It-Happen

I genuinely feel like repetitively banging my head against a wall after listening to that.

Why is there never an NTA/TII spokesman on air when they are talking about infrastructure projects? There always is when they are on about timetabling etc.

marno21

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Again you haven't thought it through.
Sandyford would be a mess for the reasons I said. Its not New York or London where you have numerous criss crossing lines and the trains are not doing a u turn.
Likewise Charlemont would be a mess. Those wanting to continue overground using your model would have to get off at Charlemont and continue. So those going from Cherrywood to a number of existant stops including on the current Green line to the north would need to travel on 3 different trams.

The simple solution is keep the existing green luas line as is and those wishing to use the metro north get off at Charlemont and go underground.

A minority compared to the volume that'll be using the Metro along its length.

donvito99

The route above uses hypothetically Hawkins House and the vacant site between Irish Life and Talbot St (at the existing Marlborough green line stop) as the possible Dart interchange and O'CS Stop.

donvito99

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Again you haven't thought it through.
Sandyford would be a mess for the reasons I said. Its not New York or London where you have numerous criss crossing lines and the trains are not doing a u turn.
Likewise Charlemont would be a mess. Those wanting to continue overground using your model would have to get off at Charlemont and continue. So those going from Cherrywood to a number of existant stops including on the current Green line to the north would need to travel on 3 different trams.

The simple solution is keep the existing green luas line as is and those wishing to use the metro north get off at Charlemont and go underground.

The three stops that you are weighing the entire project on are literally within 10 mins walk from Charlemont.

Shurimgreat

marno21 wrote: »

The alternative being Metro traffic (which will be a larger volume of people) piling onto a Luas tram.

Metro South is happening. It's not changing for your logic.

I'm afraid you will have to explain this one to me. The vast majority of Metro traffic will be getting off in the city centre, mostly city centre workers and tourists. A very few will be continuing to Sandyford.

The same will also apply in the opposite direction. Tourists and city centre workers returning towards the airport direction and green luas customers going south.

My logic is very sound. Unfortunately the planners' logic is not and their plan doesn't stand up to even the slightest scrutiny. Its got more holes in it than swiss cheese. And if they do go ahead with their Metro to Sandyford idiocy, the chances are it will cause untold frustration to green line commuters during the construction phase.

donvito99

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I'm afraid you will have to explain this one to me. The vast majority of Metro traffic will be getting off in the city centre, mostly city centre workers and tourists. A very few will be continuing to Sandyford.

You're aware that Sandyford is an enormous area of employment?

MJohnston

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Spoken like a true Dublin transport planner.
New York, London, Paris are multi-dimensional lines.
LUAS/Metro North is a SINGLE Line. That means EVERYONE gets off at the one stop.

So? Not everyone will be heading into the city for a start. Personally I'd have the whole line south of Sandyford converted to Metro too, but there are far too many crossings and at-grade sections for this.

So the question is do you want to provide as many people south of the city centre with the benefit of a faster, higher capacity Metro on a line that is already designed to be upgraded to it? Or do you deny it to them because some people will have to make an exceptionally simple transfer at Sandyford? To pick the latter option is extremely bizarre to me.

Then there is the question of space. LUAS lines will have to do a "U Turn" at Sandyford as will Metros. So two separate turning points for both. Plus platforms both ways for both. Meaning 4 platforms.

You're showing your ignorance now. Sandyford already has enough platforms to serve 3 different tracks, with plenty of extra space reserved to insert the 4th. Luas trams do not u-turn, they simply return the same way they came, using a simple switching track to swap to the correct track. Metro trains will undoubtedly be the same, but even if they aren't, there's a massive tram yard with a full set of loopback tracks that is already at Sandyford.

Underground works because you can put platforms and even lines at different heights. When you attempt transit stations above ground like that proposed at Sandyford you run into a myriad of problems.

If you can spell those problems out, maybe we'd have a good conversation going here, but you're just being vague (I suspect because the problems are largely imaginary).

As for magical fantasy land, its you who are living in it. Much like the average Dublin planner, you really haven't thought the whole thing through, the little details such as how Sandyford would work.

I despair at planners in this country. They take simple problems and turn them into the mother of all problems with the average commuter suffering.

I despair at Irish citizens with attitudes like yours, turning their noses up at a mostly very well thought through plan for a transport system purely because they have to alter their own commuting behaviour slightly to account for something new. You haven't pointed out 1 single even vaguely impactful problem that would exist at Sandyford.

Grandeeod

marno21 wrote: »

The alternative being Metro traffic (which will be a larger volume of people) piling onto a Luas tram.

Metro South is happening. It's not changing for your logic.

Wow there Cowboy! It's planned. When that TBM is under the canal to somewhere, you can talk like that.;)

MJohnston

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Again you haven't thought it through.

One of us hasn't anyway...

Sandyford would be a mess for the reasons I said. Its not New York or London where you have numerous criss crossing lines and the trains are not doing a u turn.

Already addressed above.

Likewise Charlemont would be a mess. Those wanting to continue overground using your model would have to get off at Charlemont and continue.

So? What is the problem with having to do this? Which hypothetical journeys are you talking about?

So those going from Cherrywood to a number of existant stops including on the current Green line to the north would need to travel on 3 different trams.

Again, so? Why is that a problem? Why is transferring so abhorrent?

The simple solution is keep the existing green luas line as is and those wishing to use the metro north get off at Charlemont and go underground.

That's not what I'd call a "solution", that's simply a vague maintenance of the status quo and nothing more. It wouldn't solve capacity issues on the Green Line south of the city at all, unlike the Metro upgrade.

NuMarvel

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Well Harcourt Street, Dawson and Westmoreland stops would be bypassed under the metro plan. A pretty big area.

The Charlemont stop is around the corner from Harcourt, Dawson is close to SSG East, and Tara Street would cover Westmoreland Street. Some passengers may have a little further to walk but the opposite holds true as well, plus the metro will be more frequent with more capacity meaning a more comfortable journey.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Do they plan to tear up the LUAS tracks after Charlemont? What about the new Luas line north? Its all a bit light on detail.

The fate of the LUAS tracks between Harcourt and Charlemont doesn't need to be decided now and is a minor operational detail in the grand scheme of things at this point. The new extension will continue operating and is the development plans include a further extension to finglas.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

To be honest its all over the place.

That's kind of the point of a public transport system, isn't it?

Shurimgreat

donvito99 wrote: »

The three stops that you are weighing the entire project on are literally within 10 mins walk from Charlemont.

There are other stops and you know it. Broombridge, Cabra, Phibsborough, Grangegorman, Broadstone, and possibly Parnel as well as the 3 I mentioned.

Commuters from south of Sandyford to these locations will need 3 trams, a bit of walking as well as waiting/queuing for all 3 trams. A miserable commuting experience I would say.

SeanW

I just read today somewhere that the "Metro" will now avoid the interchange at Drumcondra train station in favour of a "Whitworth" stop in Phibsborough. (I suspect it will on Whitworth Road, for those that don't know the area, Whitworth Road is about half a mile long and runs from the old N1 just above Dorset St. Bridge in Drumcondra to a junction with the old N2 in Phibsboro)

And I thought "What the F@#%???" :mad:

No offense to Phibsborough, but rerouting away from Drumcondra is a mistake for two key reasons:

1. Abandoning a key interchange is in and of itself a questionable idea at any time.
2. The Drumcondra area itself is busier, the Drumcondra train station is in and of itself a key interchange with city roads and I've observed a double-peak usage pattern any time I'm in or near the station - as many people having a destination/interchange at Drumcondra (or more) than starting their journeys there like you would have at a purely suburban station.

If the idea is to provide better service to Phibsboro, great, but it cannot be at the expense of interchange at Drumcondra.

Shurimgreat

yabadabado wrote: »

What are you raving about.

Just pointing out the stupidity of Metro South and obvious flaws in it.

donvito99

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There are other stops and you know it. Broombridge, Cabra, Phibsborough, Grangegorman, Broadstone, and possibly Parnel as well as the 3 I mentioned.

Commuters from south of Sandyford to these locations will need 3 trams, a bit of walking as well as waiting/queuing for all 3 trams. A miserable commuting experience I would say.

This plan also includes an extension to Finglas.

there are other stops and you know it

Shurimgreat

donvito99 wrote: »

You're aware that Sandyford is an enormous area of employment?

Big not enormous and nowhere near the volume travelling in the opposite direction to the city. This is where the real congestion is in the morning. You have travelled both ways in the morning I take it?

donvito99

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Big not enormous and nowhere near the volume travelling in the opposite direction to the city. This is where the real congestion is in the morning. You have travelled both ways in the morning I take it?

Honestly why do I even bother.

marno21

SeanW wrote: »

I just read today somewhere that the "Metro" will now avoid the interchange at Drumcondra train station in favour of a "Whitworth" stop in Phibsborough. (I suspect it will on Whitworth Road, for those that don't know the area, Whitworth Road is about half a mile long and runs from the old N1 just above Dorset St. Bridge in Drumcondra to a junction with the old N2 in Phibsboro)

And I thought "What the F@#%???" :mad:

No offense to Phibsborough, but rerouting away from Drumcondra is a mistake for two key reasons:

1. Abandoning a key interchange is in and of itself a questionable idea at any time.
2. The Drumcondra area itself is busier, the Drumcondra train station is in and of itself a key interchange with city roads and I've observed a double-peak usage pattern any time I'm in or near the station - as many people having a destination/interchange at Drumcondra (or more) than starting their journeys there like you would have at a purely suburban station.

If the idea is to provide better service to Phibsboro, great, but it cannot be at the expense of interchange at Drumcondra.

Whitworth stop is at Cross Guns Bridge, at Des Kelly Interiors. Right beside both the Maynooth line and the North Wall/Docklands line.

Shurimgreat

MJohnston wrote: »

One of us hasn't anyway...



Already addressed above.



So? What is the problem with having to do this? Which hypothetical journeys are you talking about?



Again, so? Why is that a problem? Why is transferring so abhorrent?



That's not what I'd call a "solution", that's simply a vague maintenance of the status quo and nothing more. It wouldn't solve capacity issues on the Green Line south of the city at all, unlike the Metro upgrade.

You are right, you haven't. If you had you see'd some obvious problem areas. That's why I likened you to a Dublin transport planner. Full of fancy ideas, but completely lacking in the reality of implementation.
There is nothing wrong with leaving something as the status quo when it is significantly better than a proposed alternative.

I really hope for everyone's sake they don't proceed with metro south. It will be a calamity that makes the current city centre LUAS issues look like small fry. Hopefully someone somewhere sees sense.

On that note I am signing out for the night.

fionnsci

Shurimgreat wrote: »

So they will be tearing up the Green Luas line extension to the Northside they spent hundreds of millions on in recent years?
What a complete waste of money so.

I think we can all agree the whole thing is an absolute shambles.

They will categorically not be doing that. Finglas - Charlemont tram line linking with the DART at Broombridge, Metro and Red Luas Line at OCS/Marlborough, and Metro at SSG/Charlemont. Far from a mess.

I think you've insinuated a number of times that we should all think this is a shambles which is not the case at all.. People do have some well-informed disagreements but on your part they don't appear to be well-informed.

dubhthach

marno21 wrote: »

Whitworth stop is at Cross Guns Bridge, at Des Kelly Interiors. Right beside both the Maynooth line and the North Wall/Docklands line.

Sure but is there any plans to build a train station on the Maynooth/Docklands line(s) at this point? If not than there is no interconnection other than a walk to Drumcondra station which Google puts at about 1km walking distance.

ted1

Shurimgreat wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

Where the third one coming from ?

The frequency will be higher, as will the speed so after taking in the change there wouldn’t be any delay.

Ever metro system in the world has changes. In many cities it’s not uncommon to get three different metros to get to where you want to go.

Well Harcourt Street, Dawson and Westmoreland stops would be bypassed under the metro plan. A pretty big area.
Do they plan to tear up the LUAS tracks after Charlemont? What about the new Luas line north? Its all a bit light on detail. To be honest its all over the place.

It’s a short walk from Dawson street to Stephens Green. And from Stephen’s green to harcourt Street .

It’s a short walk from Tara Street to westmorelsnd Street as is the walk to o Connell Street or Stephens green.

No need to switch.

SeanW

marno21 wrote: »

Whitworth stop is at Cross Guns Bridge, at Des Kelly Interiors. Right beside both the Maynooth line and the North Wall/Docklands line.

Which is kind of irrelevant unless they're also planning a heavy railway station at Glasnevin Junction ...

MJohnston

Shurimgreat wrote: »

You are right, you haven't. If you had you see'd some obvious problem areas. That's why I likened you to a Dublin transport planner. Full of fancy ideas, but completely lacking in the reality of implementation.
There is nothing wrong with leaving something as the status quo when it is significantly better than a proposed alternative.

I really hope for everyone's sake they don't proceed with metro south. It will be a calamity that makes the current city centre LUAS issues look like small fry. Hopefully someone somewhere sees sense.

On that note I am signing out for the night.

Good for you. I don't think you've made a compelling case at all for why the Metro upgrade would be a "calamity", but you're certainly entitled to hold your opinion. I think you're mostly on your own with it though. Thanks for completely ignoring all the substantive replies to your posts though!

ted1

MJohnston wrote: »

Grandeeod wrote: »

I nearly forgot. Anyone want to comment on the curve from Tara street to OCS, if the media reports are correct?

I think it's a bad idea myself (or not really a bad idea as such, just an unneeded one) , and I don't really see the necessity for OCS and Tara stations. I think OCS alone, presuming it's at lower OCS, would be very sufficient for passengers wanting to connect to Irish Rail services at Tara Street.

Tara Street is required for the Dart connection.

Dart to Tara Street and metro to the airport

Users will have more luggage than other stops

lucernarian

marno21 wrote: »

Whitworth stop is at Cross Guns Bridge, at Des Kelly Interiors. Right beside both the Maynooth line and the North Wall/Docklands line.

What evidence is there to say it's going to be right by cross guns bridge? The Irish Times seemed to extrapolate from one image of a "whitworth" stop.

There's barely enough room between the lines to swing a cat. The tennis courts are about 50-60 metres wide at best, that are beside the Porterhouse or whatever that pub is called.

MJohnston

ted1 wrote: »

Tara Street is required for the Dart connection.

Dart to Tara Street and metro to the airport

Sure, I mean I know what the Tara Street station is ostensibly for, but I certainly disagree that it's required. I think O'Connell Street is so close that it would serve the DART connection just fine by itself.

I don't disagree that it will be a useful connection, but I'm just wondering whether the negatives of having to fit that station onto the Metro line will outweigh the positives.

MJohnston

lucernarian wrote: »

What evidence is there to say it's going to be right by cross guns bridge? The Irish Times seemed to extrapolate from one image of a "whitworth" stop.

There's barely enough room between the lines to swing a cat. The tennis courts are about 50-60 metres wide at best, that are beside the Porterhouse or whatever that pub is called.

No evidence so far as with everything Metro, but it'd make a tonne of sense (of course CIE would have to enable the Whitworth stop on their lines, which may preclude sensible decisions occurring!).

I think there's enough room though, on the west side of the N2, on the side where Des Kelly currently is. Take a look on Google Maps, the section between the two rail lines is currently wide enough to house a car park, with room enough for two car lanes along the thinnest part. On the canal side, it's a bit more squeezed, but you could also stagger the platform on that side to be a slight bit further west.