Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

plodder

bk wrote: »

Personally I don't see that much of a difference. SSG is a park and not even a tourist destination at that. Tara St. is much closer to actual modern business district of the city, the IFSC and down the docklands where all the Googles and Facebooks are.

I do agree that the pedestrian infrastructure needs to be improved around there and I assume that would be part of any plan.

Docklands has its own station also (hopefully) on DU. So, that's taken care of. Also, SSG is not really about the park as a destination, but it's the premier retail/entertainment area of the city and there are large amount of business, civil service offices, college of Surgeons etc all in the surrounding area. And Tara st. already has a station.

bk

plodder wrote: »

Docklands has its own station also (hopefully) on DU. So, that's taken care of. Also, SSG is not really about the park as a destination, but it's the premier retail/entertainment area of the city and there are large amount of business, civil service offices, college of Surgeons etc all in the surrounding area. And Tara st. already has a station.

Is it though?

Retail - yes of course
Entertainment - not really that is more the Temple Bar area and Tara would be closer
Business - as you say there are some offices there, but it is extremely limited. No room for expansion due to its historic nature. Nothing at all compared to Tara and the IFSC

So I think you are overstating the difference.

Anyway are we talking about DM or DU?

The new DM seems it might have a stop at both Tara and SSG so that is covered.

DU, is currently being redesigned too, I wouldn't be so sure that there will still be a stop at SSG and Docklands, we will have to wait and see.

D.L.R.

A Metro station at Tara doesn't necessarily rule out the original SSG option, but we've really hamstrung ourselves building the Cross City tram line first. I think that's what this is about, just avoiding that whole mess.

What a shambles.

A station on the north side of SSG seems possible in theory, I'd take that.

Grandeeod

I've considered the replies to what I posted recently. I will drop out for now because the amount of repetition based on assumptions and a viewpoint that the current Government are actually committed to MN or Metro Dublin:rolleyes: has no basis or credibility IMO. If it does come to pass, then I would happily hold my hands up and admit I was wrong.

However I feel that my views aren't welcome here and considering that I have been around the Metro project for over 12 years now in various guises, my opinions are perhaps going against the current grain, which is similar to the way things transpired 8 years ago. I have no wish to disrupt or cause any issues within the thread, despite holding opinions that are almost untenable with a different generation/set of posters.

Best of luck lads. If it happens, brilliant! If DU doesn't happen with it, you can forget about comimg close to sorting PT in Dublin.

murphaph

monument wrote: »

That's a bonkers reply to what I said.

Luas is successful because it serves the full route, not just to/from the city centre. The train lines don't go anywhere near or don't directly serve one of the largest shopping centres in the country (possablly the largest?), or most of the housing estates, the business / industrial estates, the third level college, the schools, the local hospital, etc etc.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Loads of cities have both trams and metros or s/u-Bahns serving in similar directions but also serving different areas and trip types.

The population in a walking radius of Luas stops makes the idea of Dart stops on the Kildare line look like a joke (I'm not saying it is).

It's as if you're talking about a city that already has good radial transport links. Dublin does not. Lucan Luas is most definitely in the "nice to have" category AFTER we build DU, MN and MS. It would be wholly inappropriate to build it while those 3 spines are missing, so to me it's not even worth discussing as we area long way from that.

plodder

D.L.R. wrote: »

A Metro station at Tara doesn't necessarily rule out the original SSG option, but we've really hamstrung ourselves building the Cross City tram line first. I think that's what this is about, just avoiding that whole mess.

What a shambles.

A station on the north side of SSG seems possible in theory, I'd take that.

Yes, we have to wait and see what comes out of both project reviews. My point was that SSG is the ideal place for an interchange between Metro and heavy rail DART U, much better than Tara St. Though perhaps it's a matter of opinion to an extent, but I hope someone is looking at it objectively.

monument

Grandeeod wrote: »

I've considered the replies to what I posted recently. I will drop out for now because the amount of repetition based on assumptions and a viewpoint that the current Government are actually committed to MN or Metro Dublin:rolleyes: has no basis or credibility IMO. If it does come to pass, then I would happily hold my hands up and admit I was wrong.

However I feel that my views aren't welcome here and considering that I have been around the Metro project for over 12 years now in various guises, my opinions are perhaps going against the current grain, which is similar to the way things transpired 8 years ago. I have no wish to disrupt or cause any issues within the thread, despite holding opinions that are almost untenable with a different generation/set of posters

Translation: I don't want to engage with anybody here but I want the last word.

Your views are just as welcome as anybody else, but we're not going to agree with you views or your grandstanding.

Grandeeod wrote: »

Best of luck lads. If it happens, brilliant! If DU doesn't happen with it, you can forget about comimg close to sorting PT in Dublin.

I'm a huge supporter of Dart Underground and I'm probably overly optimistic about its transformation effect, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if it wasn't built. Some times it's hard to see that.

murphaph wrote: »

It's as if you're talking about a city that already has good radial transport links. Dublin does not. Lucan Luas is most definitely in the "nice to have" category AFTER we build DU, MN and MS. It would be wholly inappropriate to build it while those 3 spines are missing, so to me it's not even worth discussing as we area long way from that.

Not what you said in your other posts.

strassenwo!f

Hopefully the metro, if built, will be continued on toward the southwest of the city, to bring in areas where public transport is not great.

Under Camden Street, in that nice wide area between Grantham Street and the Bleeding Horse pub, might be a suitable location, providing very ready access (to the eventual network) for the Harcourt Centre, other workers in the vicinity, and all the teeming life that descends on the area after dark.

The road should certainly be wide enough to accomodate a station with a central platform for two northbound tracks (toward St. Stephen's Green) and a southbound platform.

I think that most of the northern part of this metro needs to be built pretty much in one go, encompassing at least a connection between the city and the airport - with Swords (a very large suburb) hopefully also being included at the same time - if it is to get built at all.

There is more scope for building gradually on the southside. I don't think it's unreasonable, if one were to look at examples from other European cities, to envisage an line between Camden Street and Walkinstown Cross via Harold's Cross (perhaps via the park between Harold's Cross Road and Kimmage Road Lower) and Kimmage, etc., hopefully at least some of it overground. And also between Camden Street and at least Templeogue (via Rathmines, Rathgar and Terenure, for example).

jamo2oo9

Just curious, I see Dublin Underground mentioned a few times lately and I'm just curious, what is it? Is it the combination of Metro North, South and West?

LeinsterDub

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

Just curious, I see Dublin Underground mentioned a few times lately and I'm just curious, what is it? Is it the combination of Metro North, South and West?

No on knows yet. There will be no west element for decades. What's currently rumoured is an underground from Stephen's Green, north to Glasnevin /Ballymun area possibly overground via Ballymun onwards to the airport and swords. Also converting the green line south of Charlemont to metro standard

thomasj

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

Just curious, I see Dublin Underground mentioned a few times lately and I'm just curious, what is it? Is it the combination of Metro North, South and West?

Dublin underground is an interconnector tunnel that is meant to connect the various Dublin rail lines and provide 2 high frequency DART services.

jamo2oo9

thomasj wrote: »

Dublin underground is an interconnector tunnel that is meant to connect the various Dublin rail lines and provide 2 high frequency DART services.

I thought that was the DART underground to connect Pearse with Heuston?

Sam Russell

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

Just curious, I see Dublin Underground mentioned a few times lately and I'm just curious, what is it? Is it the combination of Metro North, South and West?

Actually DU stands for Dart Underground and as originally suggested it is a rail Dart rail line that runs underground from Docklands Station, via Pearse, St Stephens Green, Christchurch, Heuston and onto Inchicore. It would allow fast connection from Hazlehatch and the Kildare side to the City centre.

It is part of the Dart expansion scheme that would also see the Dart expand out to Maynooth. This would give Bray Maynooth services, and Malahide to Inchicore.

marno21

Given the original Metro North has been dumped and the new one will be loosely based on the original, we don't fully know what the new one will be exactly yet.

So far we have greenfield running from north of Swords via the Airport, Ballymun/Santry to the City Centre and on to the SSG area, before emerging from the tunnel at Charlemont and continuing along what is currently the Green Line from Charlemont

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

Actually DU stands for Dart Underground and as originally suggested it is a rail Dart rail line that runs underground from Docklands Station, via Pearse, St Stephens Green, Christchurch, Heuston and onto Inchicore. It would allow fast connection from Hazlehatch and the Kildare side to the City centre.

It is part of the Dart expansion scheme that would also see the Dart expand out to Maynooth. This would give Bray Maynooth services, and Malahide to Inchicore.

It would be Drogheda Hazelhatch, rather than Malahide Inchicore, further electrification on the Kildare and Northern lines is part of the overall project.

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

It would be Drogheda Hazelhatch, rather than Malahide Inchicore, further electrification on the Kildare and Northern lines is part of the overall project.

Well, yes, but the DU project only went as far as Inchicore, but various plans were drawn up to extend it as far as anyone had the imagination to take it. It has been planned many times. It was originally known as the 'Interconnector'.

xper

Ste.phen wrote: »

In a hypothetical world where Luas green line south of harcourt is integrated into a slightly heavier metro line, is there an idea for where the Luas could be extended in a south east or south west direction from SSG/harcourt instead of terminating there?

I haven't seen much mention of the issue at any stage of what becomes of the remainder of the Luas Green Line after Metro North is tied into it south of the city cente.

Firstly, it had occurred to me that north of Charlemont always made more sense than the frequently stated assumption that the portal would be further south near Ranelagh. The existing Green Line's 90 degree turns and ramp just north of Charlemont actually lend themselves to construction of the tunnel portal alongside that location leaving a straighter metro route. I wonder was this always a consideration in the deciding the current twisting route of the Luas. There'll be displacement/CPOs in any solution.


With that location chosen as the mtero tie-in, it does leave multiple options for what to do with the remaining Luas line. The options as I can think of are:

1) Leave it as a shortened line running from Broombridge (eventually extedned to Finglas) to Harcourt

2) Extend west from Harcourt along a modified version of the Line F proposal through The Coombe to link to the red line around Fatima

3) Extend east along Adelaide Road, through Donnybrook (tricky) and out along the N11 ... but is this really needed, the bus service works very well on this alignment.

4) Head south west through some combination of Harold's Cross, Rathmines, Rathgar towards Kimmage or Terenure ... though pushing a Luas line through these areas at stret level was previously analysed (Line E?) and thought to be impractical.

Maybe we should just hope to see the metro built first!

D.L.R.

xper wrote: »

Firstly, it had occurred to me that north of Charlemont always made more sense than the frequently stated assumption that the portal would be further south near Ranelagh. The existing Green Line's 90 degree turns and ramp just north of Charlemont actually lend themselves to construction of the tunnel portal alongside that location leaving a straighter metro route. I wonder was this always a consideration in the deciding the current twisting route of the Luas. There'll be displacement/CPOs in any solution.

Not nearly enough room for a portal there. It has to be around Ranelagh.

Difficult to see the Harcourt-Ranelagh elevated section surviving because there'll be nowhere for it to go. Unless they just keep it and terminate at Ranelagh. It'd make more sense to break the line after Harcourt and follow a new street route.

This is the mess we've inherited from the p_ss poor planning of the Celtic Tiger days and we should have gone underground from day 1.

Grandeeod

monument wrote: »

Translation: I don't want to engage with anybody here but I want the last word.

Your views are just as welcome as anybody else, but we're not going to agree with you views or your grandstanding.



I'm a huge supporter of Dart Underground and I'm probably overly optimistic about its transformation effect, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if it wasn't built. Some times it's hard to see that.




Not what you said in your other posts.

Ive engaged here for donkeys years, but it just gets a little tiresome reading the same old guff. I wasn't seeking the last word, nor do I expect anyone to agree with my opinions and I object to your opinion that I "grandstand". I simply have more knowledge and experience about DU, Metro and the political association than you and many others on the thread.

What actually spurred my post was your fellow mod BK, who has made several posts based on assumption/opinion that is factually incorrect. Its tiresome. Therefore I decided to bow out of the thread for now rather that stick around and risk infractions, bans etc. by tackling the issues on thread. I would have thought that suited things rather than your post that comes across as an attempt to inflame matters. I'd prefer not to take the bait and wish all of you well in the debate.

KCAccidental

D.L.R. wrote: »

Not nearly enough room for a portal there. It has to be around Ranelagh.

Difficult to see the Harcourt-Ranelagh elevated section surviving because there'll be nowhere for it to go. Unless they just keep it and terminate at Ranelagh. It'd make more sense to break the line after Harcourt and follow a new street route.

This is the mess we've inherited from the p_ss poor planning of the Celtic Tiger days and we should have gone underground from day 1.

Always thought they'd CPO the small houses in Peter Place for the portal. It's a bit isolated there anyways!

strassenwo!f

If tunnelling is to eventually be involved to extend the Green line northwards, from around Ranelagh, I would be in favour of this happening to a station under Earlsfort Terrace, perhaps at the section between Hatch Street and Adelaide Road - plenty of road space there, and plenty of neighbouring locations with many workers.

It would then go around or under St. Stephen's Green (to another stop, at St. Stephen's Green North (the top of Grafton/Dawson Streets), with the platforms hopefully being arranged in such a way that an eventual extension from a route along the N11 can be accomodated, waaay down the line).

These platforms would be basically perpendicular to the platforms proposed in the original metro north plan, and probably to those which will appear in the new metro north plan, when it arrives.

This line would then continue more or less straight on, underground, to a station around Golden Lane (also plenty of space, plenty of development over recent years, and more to come), then curve around into a station under the Hill at Christchurch, or Winetavern Street.

It would need at this stage to be quite deep under Christchurch Hill - though not necessarily so under Winetavern Street - to get under the river, but it should not be difficult to provide a very good connection with Irish Rail's proposed interconnector (if that comes to pass), which seems to be proposed for the side of the hill.

That is, this metro line would go under the river, and under Irish Rail's plan for an E-W line.

Once across to north of the river, a number of options present themselves for a station which provides integration with the LUAS Red Line. Both the disused River House and the former Fish Market might be suitable for building an underground station which can integrate well with the Red Line.

From there, it should present very little obstacle to gradually raise the level of the line so that it comes above ground close to, or even in, Broadstone Station, to continue on northwards to locations which are eventually deemed to need a metro-level service.

Finglas, I would think, would be one.

I would hope that such a line would eventually be able to take over some of the burden of the Cross-City line -currently being completed -in the area between Broadstone and St. Stephen's Green.

(There might be a case for adding a station at or around the junction of North King Street and Church Street. Again, there is plenty of space around there to do so, and lots of potential to increase the numbers of passengers in the locality by development of vacant sites).

MJohnston

strassenwo!f wrote: »

If tunnelling is to eventually be involved to extend the Green line northwards

It isn't. You have misread.

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

It isn't. You have misread.

Isn't tunneling south towards the green line the same thing basically?

MJohnston

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Isn't tunneling south towards the green line the same thing basically?

Not really, he said Green Line was to be *extended* northwards, but it would just be subsumed by Dublin Metro southwards from a particular point. There's no extension involved.

bk

It is highly inaccurate to describe it as an extension of the Green Luas line for a few reasons.

Most importantly when Dublin Metro is built, the Green Luas line will continue to exist as a separate line. Operating from somewhere around Charlemont-Ranelagh to Broomfield and I assume will itself get extended to Finglas eventually.

Remember Luas Cross City is the Green Luas line.

Second the current Luas stations and infrastructure south of Renalgh will be upgraded from Luas/Tram standard to Metro standard.

So it is really poor to describe it as an extension of the Green Luas line.

monument

Can somebody please explain where a tunnel portal would fit between St Stephen's Green and Milltown?

The only clear place I can see is Milltown Golf Course.

If so, Rathmines is between St Stephen's Green and Milltown -- you could have an underground stop in Rathmines and leave the green line intact between Milltown Golf Course and Broombridge.

Re the green line going a different direction after that: If then you have a tunnel portal at Milltown Golf Course, you could put the tunnel borring machine back in the ground for 2km to Mountanville.

Luas can then takeover the Eastern Bypass alignment. It would link Dart - St Vincent's / new NMH, N11, UCD etc, to Metro at Windy Arbour -- it would serve people using the new St Vincent's - Windy Arbour - Broombridge Luas green line, and serve as a local Metro and Dart feeder service and a local east-west transport corridor in its own right.

strassenwo!f

Yes, I can see why there could be a misunderstanding, because of the nomenclature.

I should have used 'Green Line route' rather than 'Green Line' in the above post, referring mainly to the line south of Ranelagh.

It seems to me that the overall plan may well be to upgrade the Green Line route south of Ranelagh to metro level, to incorporate this in some way with a metro route going to other parts of the city, and to continue running the LUAS Green Line along this corridor.

It would probably be next to impossible to have on-street running of a 'metro' between Charlemont and St. Stephen's Green, with a meaningful connection with an underground metro from locations north of the river. So, in order to make a connection between the two sections of metro mentioned in the previous paragraph you would need to go underground at some stage along the current Green Line route.

Many people have suggested that the Green Line route on the metro part of the eventual service should go underground at Ranelagh and be extended northwards to meet with a metro line from the Northside. This could also be rephrased, if you will, as extending a metro from the Northside to meet with the current Green Line route at Ranelagh to form a longer metro line.

The current Green Line Luas would continue to operate all the way from Cherrywood to St. Stephen's Green (and, soon, beyond), with on-street sections.

I hope that clears things up.

I would envisage the Broadstone-St. Stephen's Green section (of the line mentioned in my previous post) having turnback platforms at both of those locations.

You might initially start with a metro every two minutes between them, with perhaps half of them continuing north of Broadstone and south of St. Stephen's Green. This, in combination with the LUAS Green line, should enable an approximate two-minute service along the parts which are shared by LUAS and metro.

redfacedbear

monument wrote: »

Can somebody please explain where a tunnel portal would fit between St Stephen's Green and Milltown?

I had assumed it would be in Ranelagh Gardens Park but looking at it, I would guess that there wouldn't be enough space to get the line up to overhead height in the space available.

Ranelagh

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Can somebody please explain where a tunnel portal would fit between St Stephen's Green and Milltown?

The only clear place I can see is Milltown Golf Course.

If so, Rathmines is between St Stephen's Green and Milltown -- you could have an underground stop in Rathmines and leave the green line intact between Milltown Golf Course and Broombridge.

Re the green line going a different direction after that: If then you have a tunnel portal at Milltown Golf Course, you could put the tunnel borring machine back in the ground for 2km to Mountanville.

Luas can then takeover the Eastern Bypass alignment. It would link Dart - St Vincent's / new NMH, N11, UCD etc, to Metro at Windy Arbour -- it would serve people using the new St Vincent's - Windy Arbour - Broombridge Luas green line, and serve as a local Metro and Dart feeder service and a local east-west transport corridor in its own right.

I've wondered about that for some time - how it could be done without closing the Green Line for an extended period.

Personally I have always believed that it makes far more sense to extend the Metro southwestwards, through Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham or Templeogue, and across via Knocklyon to Tallaght, rather than converting the Green Line LUAS.

That whole central area has little or no scope for above ground rapid transport due to the narrow roads that traverse it.

bk

strassenwo!f I think you are unnecessarily confusing yourself and getting tied up in knots. Obviously we need to wait and see what the proposed routes end up looking like, but based on what Bonnie said and based on previous reports, I think it will look something like this:

Note the following aren't all stops, just general overview of the route:

Dublin Metro: Swords - Airport - City Center - Stephens Green - Surface somewhere around Ranelagh - Bride's Glen
Luas Green Line: Broombridge - O'Connell St - Stephens Green - Ranelagh area

Probably see the Green Luas line extended north to Finglas eventually.

Two different lines. I would be shocked if Luas trams continue to operate south of where the Metro surfaces onto the existing Luas route, it would limit the Metro service and really no need for it. People could just change over at Ranelagh area or Stephens Green or Upper O'Connell St or even around Westmorland Street if the Metro ends up with a station at Tara St.