Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Sam Russell

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LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Metro North in isolation is a wast of time. There are trains going North already.

Trains going south and north on the DART aswell.

Trains going west to Maynooth, plus the interchange on LUAS at Broombridge,

But very little anywhere else.

Say you live in Templeogue or Terenure for example. What are your options to connect with MN?

Or you live in Lucan and that corridor?

Integrated fast transport will not be solved with MN.

But I suppose there are adherents who will listen to nothing else.

I suppose if I say it's a connection to the Airport I will be called out as an idiot aswell. Oh well...

I'm sorry but your post is just daft.

I don't know anyone who is suggesting that MN alone will solve the city's congestion problems.

But it will offer a rapid connection to areas such as Drumcondra, Glasnevin, Ballymun, the Airport and Swords from the city centre. Apart from Drumcondra, none of those areas have any rail connection so I'm not sure what your point is.

With P & R in North Dublin it could benefit a wide number of areas.

It can connect into the rail network at Drumcondra, LUAS in the city centre, and the city bus network all along the route (which will have been redesigned and if ticketing is reformed might even provide feeder bus services).

It's one part of the solution, with DART Underground, BRT, and the BusConnects project forming the balance.

It's about creating a public transport network for the city.

It's not about building the line as a standalone isolated scheme.

For what it's worth, I personally believe that any further extension south should be towards Terenure, Rathfarnham, Templeogue, Firhouse/Knocklyon to Tallaght, an area plagued with congestion and roads that aren't wide enough to provide proper fully segregated on-street bus priority.

Spanish Eyes

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm sorry but your post is just daft.

I don't know anyone who is suggesting that MN alone will solve the city's congestion problems.

But it will offer a rapid connection to areas such as Drumcondra, Glasnevin, Ballymun, the Airport and Swords from the city centre. Apart from Drumcondra, none of those areas have any rail connection so I'm not sure what your point is.

With P & R in North Dublin it could benefit a wide number of areas.

It can connect into the rail network at Drumcondra, LUAS in the city centre, and the city bus network all along the route (which will have been redesigned and if ticketing is reformed might even provide feeder bus services).

It's one part of the solution, with DART Underground, BRT, and the BusConnects project forming the balance.

It's about creating a public transport network for the city.

It's not about building the line as a standalone isolated scheme.

For what it's worth, I personally believe that any further extension south should be towards Terenure, Rathfarnham, Templeogue, Firhouse/Knocklyon to Tallaght, an area plagued with congestion and roads that aren't wide enough to provide proper fully segregated on-street bus priority.

You could have omitted your first sentence.

thanks.

LeinsterDub

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Colm McCarthy on Newstalk Drive slating the Metro North project, comparing it to the Luas red line. It's annoying the way he has appointed himself as a transport expert.

I assume he said it will a massive success so?

marno21

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I assume he said it will a massive success so?

He was comparing it to Luas Red Line on cost grounds.

Apples and Oranges.

road_high

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Just about the only economist around town who came through the last 15 years with his credibility fully intact. He was calling the property bubble for years leading up to 2007.

Just because people don't like the medicine, that doesn't mean the doctor is wrong.

He was dead wrong on the Irish economy recovery also- used glance through his weekly articles of depression on the Irish Farmers Journal (he fits in well there of course) all through the height of the recession and his (always negative) message was that the Irish economy would take a decade to recover and the housing market would stay in the doldrums until the 2020s...The Irish economy starting pulling out of the recession middle 2011 and no thanks to the likes of him. I'm a total realist when it comes to economics, but can't stand listening to or reading him.

McAlban

Idbatterim wrote: »

its not just the airport, its Swords the largest town in Ireland not served by rail to the best of my knowledge. There is huge amount of greenfield that can be built to very high density along its route, which could go a long way towards solving the housing crisis. There was a plan to link it to the northern line. To the best of my knowledge, metro north would serve more passengers than the current green and red line combined!!!

The Development of LAP's around Swords are predicated by the Metro, Lissenhall (Where there will be P&R serving Lusk and Donabate etc.), Barrysparks (including Pavilions Phase 3) Fosterstown North and South.

Not to Mention the Development of Ballymun (Townland, rather than the Existing Suburb), and connection to DCU, Phibsborough (& NCR).

That's before you mention the Main International Airport on the Island with ever increasing passenger numbers.

I still can't believe people think MN will be a waste of money!

LeinsterDub

marno21 wrote: »

He was comparing it to Luas Red Line on cost grounds.

Apples and Oranges.

Awh right. Remember the Red Line was called an expensive white elephant? Simpler times

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

Bray Head wrote: »

Getting back to the point at hand, I generally agree with Colm McCarthy, but not on Metro North. From what I've observed him say over the years his opposition to it is 'instinctive' to say the least. I've never seen him roll out his own numbers on the topic.

Show me where either Colm McCarthy or Sean Barrett have ever factored in the wider benefits of LUAS, Metro North, DART Underground etc in any of their arguments?

All I have ever heard from either of them has been (what appears to me at least) a fundamental anti-rail bias.

I've helpfully bolded the parts of my OP where I say that:

-I disagree with Colm McCarthy on MN
-He has never to my knowledge supported his hunch with his own economic analysis

However Colm McCarthy and Sean Barrett are not all economists. The original MN business case was prepared in large part by economists using the techniques I set out above.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

I've helpfully bolded the parts of my OP where I say that:

-I disagree with Colm McCarthy on MN
-He has never to my knowledge supported his hunch with his own economic analysis

However Colm McCarthy and Sean Barrett are not all economists. The original MN business case was prepared in large part by economists using the techniques I set out above.

OK - I shouldn't have said all economists in my original post, but rather the ones in Ireland that get the most media coverage with regard to transport and have politicians' ears - namely Messrs McCarthy and Barrett. Clearly people working on the project itself aren't going to be putting it down.

The problem is that that pair in particular have a lot of influence and their ludicrous attitude gets believed. And the rest of us end up with mediocrity when it comes to public transport.

Grandeeod

lxflyer wrote: »

OK - I shouldn't have said all economists in my original post, but rather the ones in Ireland that get the most media coverage with regard to transport and have politicians' ears - namely Messrs McCarthy and Barrett.

The problem is that they have influence and their ludicrous attitude gets believed. And the rest of us end up with mediocrity when it comes to public transport.

"Celebrity/media driven" economists. I knew what you meant the moment I read your post. Any economist actually involved directly with a rail project, has absolutely no influence whatsoever in the greater scheme of things and we never hear their opinion. You can still stand over your post as I think the original challenging of it was really pedantic.

LeinsterDub

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Colm McCarthy on Newstalk Drive slating the Metro North project, comparing it to the Luas red line. It's annoying the way he has appointed himself as a transport expert.

https://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/81889/37404/10th_July_2017_-_Newstalk_Drive_Part_1/

For anyone who missed it . Starts at 16:24 so jump about half way into it.

LeinsterDub

To paraphrase him. The roads around Dublin are problem .... here's why I'm skeptical of MN.... let's build more roads.

He then went on to claim that MN is high risk because Dublin is a medieval city. Unlike Paris,London ....or most capitals in Europe.

BonnieSituation

Paris isn't medieval anymore. Haussman saw to that

murphaph

Dublin is a piece of cake to build an underground in. Good geology for the most part and no obstructions for the actual tunnels as they'd all be deep bore, well below any existing infrastructure.

BonnieSituation

murphaph wrote: »

Dublin is a piece of cake to build an underground in. Good geology for the most part and no obstructions for the actual tunnels as they'd all be deep bore, well below any existing infrastructure.

But people don't trust underground railways

Idbatterim

laugh out loud! I watch the discovery channels with the massive engineering projects, and the insane challenges, that leave your jaw on the floor in terms of engineering, the likes of crossrail etc! The logistical "challenges " of metro north are a joke. McCarthy hasnt got a clue on stuff like this!

But people don't trust underground railways

its so true, when I go to any reasonably sized european city, I wouldnt dream of using their underground. Sure dont you hear of so many cave ins etc!

Dublin is a piece of cake to build an underground in. Good geology for the most part and no obstructions for the actual tunnels as they'd all be deep bore, well below any existing infrastructure.

Did he reckon the port tunnel wouldnt be feasibly either, wouldnt surprise me!

marno21

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But people don't trust underground railways

Funny comment in retrospect given the reputation of the Luas Red Line

LeinsterDub

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But people don't trust underground railways

Irish Politicians don't trust area specific projects. A hypothetical 15 Billon euro road that impacts 20 constituencies sign them up who cares its a white elephant that's 40 seats we could buy

Dyr

LeinsterDub wrote: »

To paraphrase him. The roads around Dublin are problem .... here's why I'm skeptical of MN.... let's build more roads.

MN is high risk because Dublin is a medieval city unlike Paris ,London ....or most capitals in Europe.

Londons not a medieval city?

LeinsterDub

Bambi wrote: »

Londons not a medieval city?

I'm saying that being a medieval city isn't a excuse . Nearly every European capital is medieval and has an underground

CatInABox

Bambi wrote: »

Londons not a medieval city?

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm saying that being a medieval city isn't a excuse . Nearly every European capital is medieval and has an underground

I believe that your sarcasm has been missed, LeinsterDub!

It's absolutely incredible to me that people think the solution to Dublins traffic problems lie with more roads. It's not the roads that are at fault, it's the number of cars on them. Build an outer ring road beyond the M50, and the problem will move from being on the M50 to being on the roads that connect the two. It'll encourage more car usage, which will only cause the problem to get worse.

And then once people decide to drive into Dublin city, they leave the M50 and enter a medieval city designed back when a horse and cart was state of the art. Any traffic problems within the city soon spill out to effect the major routes in and out of the city, and eventually hit the M50 as well. A small crash that takes less than an hour to clear has an effect on traffic hours afterwards. A medium crash will result in traffic problems that reach into the evening rush hour traffic. A major crash means people should just walk home.

If McCarthys belief is that we shouldn't build underground rail because Dublin is a medieval city, he inadvertently makes the argument that roads won't solve Dublin's problems because it's a medieval city.

mickmmc

An Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, was out in Swords Castle last night. I am sure Fingal County Council were lobbying him with regard to speeding up Metro North. I don't remember Enda Kenny ever visiting Swords.

Metro North will not just benefit Swords; the President of DCU has been out in Swords lobbying for Metro North.

Colm Mc Carthy has argued the point in his articles that the Dublin Port Tunnel is underutilised. However, the problem with increasing the usage of the Port Tunnel, as an alternative to MN, is that the surrounding roads will not be able to deal with the extra traffic.

Example of a trip on Aircoach 704x:
Dublin Airport to Aston Quay via Port Tunnel - Leaving the Airport on a Wednesday 7.30am - arrival at Aston Quay 8:05.

Dublin Airport to Aston Quay - Aircoach via Swords Road, Drumcondra & O' C street - leaving on a Wednesday at 7:30am - arrival at Aston Quay 8:07.

Reducing the Toll at peak times on the Port Tunnel and directing more buses to the Port Tunnel is not a viable alternative to Metro North.

MJohnston

I think we've got to be honest with ourselves and admit we're at the point where anyone seriously advocating for increased road usage, as a solution to Dublin's infrastructure problems, either has a compromised opinion (or a vested interest), or is just not very smart.

marno21

Under the last Taoiseach we heard repeatedly that there was no money for transport capex, and big projects like the M20 were unaffordable.

So far, the new Taoiseach has mentioned several times about progressing Metro North and others, and this is in the space of a few weeks. This is a marked contrast to the previous administration.

This Taoiseach, being 38, will still be in politics in 20 years time. It's a different mentality to the horizon for an older Taoiseach who will be retiring at the next election.

All we need now is a Minister for Transport who isn't a total incompetent charlatan.

Zebra3

McAlban wrote: »

The Development of LAP's around Swords are predicated by the Metro, Lissenhall (Where there will be P&R serving Lusk and Donabate etc.), Barrysparks (including Pavilions Phase 3) Fosterstown North and South.

Not to Mention the Development of Ballymun (Townland, rather than the Existing Suburb), and connection to DCU, Phibsborough (& NCR).

That's before you mention the Main International Airport on the Island with ever increasing passenger numbers.

I still can't believe people think MN will be a waste of money!

Add in the high usage from off-peak events in Croke Park too.

MJohnston

We've also got Donohoe at Finance too, and he's bound to be chomping at the bit to get Metro North done. He mentions it in every newsletter he drops through our letterbox.

BonnieSituation

MJohnston wrote: »

We've also got Donohoe at Finance too, and he's bound to be chomping at the bit to get Metro North done. He mentions it in every newsletter he drops through our letterbox.

Pity he wasn't so eager for DU when Minister for transport.

Idbatterim

I think we've got to be honest with ourselves and admit we're at the point where anyone seriously advocating for increased road usage, as a solution to Dublin's infrastructure problems, either has a compromised opinion (or a vested interest), or is just not very smart.

I think eventually the m50 ring should be completed. But at the moment, get original metro north built, shelve the ridiculously expensive rubbish BRT routes...

Its typical here, divide it up amount loads of rubbish instead of going with serious game changers like MN and DU...

LeinsterDub

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think eventually the m50 ring should be completed.

As in a tunnel under Dublin Bay? From where to where?