Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

jd

Zebra3 wrote: »

Hopefully plenty of buses feeding into the line from east and west and even from towns further north of it.

I hope the locations of the metro stations and the routes of the orbital bus routes (post http://www.busconnects.ie/ network design) make transfers convenient!

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

Economists don't like rail based solutions full stop.

They fail however to ever factor in the wider benefits that they bring, looking solely at the financial performance of the operation itself.

Colm McCarthy is against everything. He makes a comfortable living by being against everything. In fact, I suspect he is against everything because he makes a comfortable living from being against everything.

He mentioned that the Metro North is just a tram, and that it is 17 times more expensive than the Red line (of about the same length). He also said it was expensive because it uses a tunnel.

He also praised the bus services to the airport that use the Port Tunnel. Now I am not sure, but I think he was against that at the time as were many of the established commertariat and chatterati.

Now the Red line was supposed to be tunneled but the tunnel section was abandoned be Mammy O'Rouke because 'people do not trust underground railways and would not use it'. Her interference delayed the Red line by five years.

The problem with the MN is how it will get through Ballymun - at grade, in a tunnel or on stilts. At grade would reduce its speed and reduce the benefits. It also needs to go into the Airport terminal area - I'm not sure what the current plan is on its route through the airport.

If Colm McCarthy is against it, it must be a good project.

LXFlyer

jd wrote: »

I hope the locations of the metro stations and the routes of the orbital bus routes (post http://www.busconnects.ie/ network design) make transfers convenient!

That will be an issue a long time after the bus network redesign takes place, which itself isn't likely to physically happen until 2019.

It would require another local area review at that stage. I wouldn't be getting too concerned about that until closer to the time.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

It would require another local area review at that stage. I wouldn't be getting too concerned about that until closer to the time.

It does need to be kept in mind when designing the stations and their exits.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

It does need to be kept in mind when designing the stations and their exits.

Oh absolutely - that's essential.

But I was just referring to the design of the new bus routes - I wouldn't be designing them now with MN in mind, but rather with the needs of the users right now. If and when MN becomes more of a reality then of course the route networks around it should be redesigned.

However, the real proof in the pudding in that respect is the ticketing. If cross-mode ticketing isn't reformed, people aren't going to use feeder buses where they have to pay twice! Usage of buses between LUAS in Dundrum and Ballinteer for example is undermined by people having to pay two fares. Most people walk to/from the LUAS as a result.

While there has been talk of ticketing reform, so far the only suggestion has been of bus-to-bus rather than cross-mode.

D.L.R.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now the Red line was supposed to be tunneled but the tunnel section was abandoned be Mammy O'Rouke because 'people do not trust underground railways and would not use it'.

Lol. This was actually an issue for Londoners building the first underground..... in 1860. Loathesome woman, thank christ she's off the stage now.

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

Economists don't like rail based solutions full stop.

What are you basing this on? The EIB for one has suggested we invest more in this kind of project

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What are you basing this on? The EIB for one has suggested we invest more in this kind of project

Look at virtually any Irish economist in recent times.

Most of them have rubbished any investment in rail projects.

BonnieSituation

jd wrote: »

I hope the locations of the metro stations and the routes of the orbital bus routes (post http://www.busconnects.ie/ network design) make transfers convenient!

The potential stations underwent another feasibility scoring review this week. I think it was submitted to teh NTA on Friday evening.

It will be a while before it goes out but, October was the last date I had heard for New MN.

Again there are a heap of options being considered.

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

Look at virtually any Irish economist in recent times.

Most of them have rubbished any investment in rail projects.

You're going to need to provide links to said comments.

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You're going to need to provide links to says comments.

Go to anything from Colm McCarthy or indeed Sean Barrett for starters. Two economists who get a lot of media coverage.

Over the years they have rubbished DART, LUAS, Metro etc and have always advocated buses instead.

Add to that a deep level of skepticism within the Dept of Finance for rail projects.

Getting these projects passed by government is an eternal uphill struggle.

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

Go to anything from Colm McCarthy or indeed Sean Barrett for starters. Two economists who get a lot of media coverage.

Lx you're posting here long enough to know what's not how it works. You made the claim, you back it up or withdraw it.

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Lx you're posting here long enough to know what's not how it works. You made the claim, you back it up or withdraw it.

I don't have the time to go searching for individual quotes.

If you don't want to believe it, that's up to you. But I'm certainly not withdrawing it. I'm also not in the habit of posting dud information or claims. And last time I checked this wasn't a court of law, and you're certainly not a judge.

Both of those gentlemen have been quoted at length on Boards and elsewhere over the years with very anti-rail views.

Try googling and I'm sure you will be illuminated.

markpb

Dublin's Luas system, due to commence operations in nine weeks time, needs to carry a similar amount of passengers as the city's DART system just to cover its operational costs, an economist has claimed.

However, a leading economist, Mr Colm McCarthy, of DKM Consultants, has cast doubt on the viability of the system based on its own projections, pointing out that projected passenger numbers for the two unconnected lines are similar to those for the entire DART system.

According to Mr McCarthy, the Luas lines are extremely unlikely to meet their target of 20 million passengers in their first year of operation.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/economist-casts-doubts-on-the-viability-of-luas-1.1309387

Economist and adviser to The Irish Government Colm McCarthy says that the Metro North rail line to Dublin Airport should not proceed as planned. Mr. McCarthy said there is more that enough public transport to the Airport already.

http://www.swords-dublin.com/metro-north.html

His disparaging reference to the western rail corridor as a “line to nowhere” echoes Prof Colm McCarthy’s description of it last year as a “toy railway” on RTÉ radio.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/future-of-western-rail-corridor-1.729014

Coincidentally, this year also marks the 175th anniversary of Irish railways. It would be ironic if the railway anniversaries this year were to be marked by a Government decision to accept the McCarthy Report’s recommendation to close three more lines, serving Ballina, Nenagh and every town between Limerick Junction and Rosslare, merely on the basis that they are “lightly used”.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/the-anniversary-of-the-dart-1.705956

All of this

He also objected to both the original dart and the extension to greystones. I can find references to that in the Irish Times archives but can't find the piece itself.

This is worth reading both for nostalgia and to get a sense of how little progress we've made in the 17 years since it was written.

D.L.R.

This twit seems to think a system has to make a profit to be beneficial to the state.

I guess there's more votes in subsidising an empty motorway network than a packed metro system.

road_high

Can't stand that Mcarthy idiot. A born misery gut, glass empty incessantly negative gob****e- if you were to listen to him then nothing would ever be done

Arthur Daley

road_high wrote: »

Can't stand that Mcarthy idiot. A born misery gut, glass empty incessantly negative gob****e- if you were to listen to him then nothing would ever be done

Just about the only economist around town who came through the last 15 years with his credibility fully intact. He was calling the property bubble for years leading up to 2007.

Just because people don't like the medicine, that doesn't mean the doctor is wrong.

LXFlyer

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Just about the only economist around town who came through the last 15 years with his credibility fully intact. He was calling the property bubble for years leading up to 2007.

Just because people don't like the medicine, that doesn't mean the doctor is wrong.

It doesn't mean that he's right about rail projects though.

marno21

Perhaps Colm McCarthy should educate himself a little here. Himself, Michael O'Leary and others seem to think this is some sort of vanity project to provide rail access to the airport. The Airport is just a tiny proportion of what this will serve.

Colm McCarthy is right about certain rail projects, particularly the Western Rail Corridor. That was a complete waste of money given its initial costs and the ongoing high operating subsidy.

Here's what he had to say on the WRC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KypTTQQDAlU

Idbatterim

honest to god, what a joke! I agree with a lot of what McCarthy said in that clip...

road_high

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Just about the only economist around town who came through the last 15 years with his credibility fully intact. He was calling the property bubble for years leading up to 2007.

Just because people don't like the medicine, that doesn't mean the doctor is wrong.

And the property bubble and rail infrastructure are the same thing?

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

Economists don't like rail based solutions full stop.

They fail however to ever factor in the wider benefits that they bring, looking solely at the financial performance of the operation itself.

This is completely untrue. Economics provides the toolkit to take on board non-monetary benefits (reduction in congestion, pollution) that a standard financial analysis approach cannot.

It also allows you to attempt to calculate the wider economic benefits of a project that an accounting framework does not.

Getting back to the point at hand, I generally agree with Colm McCarthy, but not on Metro North. From what I've observed him say over the years his opposition to it is 'instinctive' to say the least. I've never seen him roll out his own numbers on the topic.

Sierra Oscar

Colm McCarthy on Newstalk Drive slating the Metro North project, comparing it to the Luas red line. It's annoying the way he has appointed himself as a transport expert.

Idbatterim

do newstalk want this as a totally one sided argument or is there a pro metro north person speaking too?

markpb

Idbatterim wrote: »

do newstalk want this as a totally one sided argument or is there a pro metro north person speaking too?

They've got an expert, no need for debate.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

This is completely untrue. Economics provides the toolkit to take on board non-monetary benefits (reduction in congestion, pollution) that a standard financial analysis approach cannot.

It also allows you to attempt to calculate the wider economic benefits of a project that an accounting framework does not.

Getting back to the point at hand, I generally agree with Colm McCarthy, but not on Metro North. From what I've observed him say over the years his opposition to it is 'instinctive' to say the least. I've never seen him roll out his own numbers on the topic.

Show me where either Colm McCarthy or Sean Barrett have ever factored in the wider benefits of LUAS, Metro North, DART Underground etc in any of their arguments?

All I have ever heard from either of them has been (what appears to me at least) a fundamental anti-rail bias.

Spanish Eyes

Metro North in isolation is a wast of time. There are trains going North already.

Trains going south and north on the DART aswell.

Trains going west to Maynooth, plus the interchange on LUAS at Broombridge,

But very little anywhere else.

Say you live in Templeogue or Terenure for example. What are your options to connect with MN?

Or you live in Lucan and that corridor?

Integrated fast transport will not be solved with MN.

But I suppose there are adherents who will listen to nothing else.

I suppose if I say it's a connection to the Airport I will be called out as an idiot aswell. Oh well...

D.L.R.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Metro North in isolation is a wast of time. There are trains going North already.

Trains going south and north on the DART aswell.

Trains going west to Maynooth, plus the interchange on LUAS at Broombridge,

But very little anywhere else.

Say you live in Templeogue or Terenure for example. What are your options to connect with MN?

Or you live in Lucan and that corridor?

Integrated fast transport will not be solved with MN.

But I suppose there are adherents who will listen to nothing else.

I suppose if I say it's a connection to the Airport I will be called out as an idiot aswell. Oh well...

You can't solve a city like Dublin with one single line <Mod:snip>

BonnieSituation

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Metro North in isolation is a wast of time. There are trains going North already.

Trains going south and north on the DART aswell.

Trains going west to Maynooth, plus the interchange on LUAS at Broombridge,

But very little anywhere else.

Say you live in Templeogue or Terenure for example. What are your options to connect with MN?

Or you live in Lucan and that corridor?

Integrated fast transport will not be solved with MN.

But I suppose there are adherents who will listen to nothing else.

I suppose if I say it's a connection to the Airport I will be called out as an idiot aswell. Oh well...

Metro North will act as an advert for increased services by rail elsewhere. It needs to go ahead because without it DU, Metro West (or their successors) etc will never ever happen.

With MN in full flight we get to see the benefits. You know how it works in Ireland. Until we see it we don't quite believe it.

Idbatterim

its not just the airport, its Swords the largest town in Ireland not served by rail to the best of my knowledge. There is huge amount of greenfield that can be built to very high density along its route, which could go a long way towards solving the housing crisis. There was a plan to link it to the northern line. To the best of my knowledge, metro north would serve more passengers than the current green and red line combined!!!

Estuary
Seatown
Swords
FosterstownParking
AirportAirport interchange
DardistownLuas Parking
Northwood
Ballymun
Dublin City University
Griffith Avenue
DrumcondraIarnród Éireann
Mater
O'Connell StreetLuas
SSG