'Grade inflation' in exam results investigation

RonMexico

Donegalfella - good to hear your opinion on this. I remember a few months back we had a great discussion on this in the Literature forum. Somebody posted an article called - "Teaching students to hate literature". Lots of talk regarding dumbing down in that thread.

I could go on a right old rant here about first year college students and their inability to string a single coherant sentence together. I think you have all the points covered though!

PS: Do you lecture at a college here in Ireland?

CFlower

Still thinking about this one. I think its a mess. The problem with the Foreign Direct Investors is that we have not been producing enough IT/computer graduates, and that some ITs have not been teaching them well enough.

The FDI CEOs have gone blue in the face saying this over the last five years and have been ignored. Now they have gone public and our reputation for a "well educated young workforce" is being trashed.

The OECD however rank Ireland very high for literacy of school students and when there was a comparative study done recently between the UK and Irish Leaving/A-levels, they had to upgrade the number of "points" awarded for most leaving cert subjects, for Irish applicants to UK Universities.

CEOs are saying Irish graduates can't spell and write grammatically, but is this a general problem internationally now that people are using the internet more and reading less ...?

Government chose to make an assessment by looking at the numbers of firsts awarded and the numbers getting over 500 points at Leaving Cert.
The latter is risky statistically, as the numbers are small and it may be the case that in the boom parents could afford to pay for very good grinds teaching.

It is not a good situation. We are getting labelled internationally as crap at education, the CEOs can't get the staff they want (so why would they keep/bring jobs here) and Government is still worrying about upsetting teachers rather than raising standards where they need raising.

All of this was avoidable, and all of it could be dealt with. But what we have instead is a government that is letting science education at second level be run out of the curriculum in a lot of schools.

Permabear

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KevinVonSpiel

DJDC wrote: »

Its simple really. Modern capitalist societies only need say 20% of their workforce to be degree qualified and this demand constraint was matched well by graduate supply globally until around 1990. Since then, there has been a massive increase in the the number of graduates, participation in Ireland for example rising above 60%. The reasons for this are complicated and I will not discuss that here.

Can you provide a source or sources for your 20% figure there?

CFlower

donegalfella wrote: »

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Have you taught in an Irish University ?

The OECD rates Irish students' literacy highly.

In terms of your comparison between Irish and English Parliamentary Reps, the Irish would win hands down. I've had to listen to plenty of both and the Irish are able to deliver a speech with spontaneity, fluency and humour. The average English speech is stilted, dull and cliche ridden.

It may be that there has been a general decline in written English and in English grammar. I've noticed reduced use of plural forms of verbs in England and in Ireland (is instead of are, in particular). Miriam O'Callaghan is guilty of this as are plenty of other RTE presenters. I would put that down to them being so overpaid and self-satisfied that their brains have seized up.

CnaG

Kinski wrote: »

The Modernists seem to have fallen from favour - I studied Joyce, Eliot and Yeats for LC, I don't think any of those are on the syllabus now. However, much of the work of those writers may well be too complex for a bunch of 16/17-year-olds to study, so I wouldn't necessarily see that as a bad thing - while the expansion of the course to encompass film and visual imagery is a positive step.

I did my Leaving Cert in 2007 when Eliot and Yeats were most certainly still on the course. I always liked Eliot in his earlier work, though I wasn't mad about Yeats. We covered Kavanagh and Plath too. And Frost. We may have looked at one or two others though I can't remember.

Anyhow, that's slightly off-topic. I'm actually posting to say that my experience of the Leaving Cert was fairly horrendous in terms of the amount of learning off by heart we had to do. In physics particularly I could do the maths, but remembering the formulas (formulae?) was always a problem for me. So if this new log book really does have all the formulae in it then I actually think that's great.

To put this in context, I was quite good at maths in school (though far from brilliant). I qualified for CTYI in Maths and English, got an A in the Junior Cert, did the Maths Olympiad thing for a while in transition year and in the end got a B1 in Maths in my Leaving Cert. I worked far harder for those results than in any other subject. Was it dumbed down? I would like to think not...

I'm now in my final year in college in Maynooth. I don't think this report could have broken at a worse time for my year, as it will without doubt negatively affect our marks, even though they're sent to an external examiner for approval and as far as I know (in our department at least) the extern works in England...

Also, the 700% increase in Maynooth is somewhat misleading. Perhaps this has already been posted here, but this is partially why and I'm pretty sure they have higher numbers of people entering the college with 500+ CAO points since they started offering the entrance scholarship.

In my opinion, the internet helps people get better grades as well. If there was only one copy of a book useful to an essay in the library in the past not every student could use it, but now lots of texts are being made available online which means they can. Also, search engines like google scholar and online databases like JSTOR can turn up very relevant articles for assignments, so I would argue that the standard of CA material in particular could quite concievably have raised over the past number of years. We generally joke that we couldn't pass our degrees without wikipedia, but really the student still needs to do the work, it's just that information is more readily available (we don't really use wikipedia for essays, by the way. There is literally no easier way to get done for plagarism than to copy from its pages!)

I can't really comment on the standard of people going into science and engineering degrees and the like, being an arts student but I will say that I know science students work twice as hard as Arts students on a daily basis.

Also, I am I right in saying free fees were introduced around 1994? Perhaps people started getting to college who hadn't been/wouldn't have been able to get there before, despite being fairly intelligent?

nesf

Multinationals reluctant to recruit from certain colleges: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0303/1224265501148.html from the Irish Times.

US MULTINATIONAL companies are reluctant to recruit graduates from many Irish third-level colleges because of concern about declining standards, Minister for Education Batt O’Keeffe was told at a recent meeting with representatives of Google, Intel and other major companies.

The meeting was told that while some companies were delighted with the calibre of graduates from UCD, TCD and UCC, they had concerns about other colleges.

There are reports in education circles that some colleges – one university and some institutes of technology – have been “black-listed” by US multinationals.

But this was denied yesterday by senior industrialists contacted by The Irish Times .

Last night, John Herlihy of Google Ireland said the December meeting with the Minister was confidential and he refused to give any details.

Asked about Google’s recruitment policies in Ireland he said: “We recruit from all seven universities but we recruit principally from three universities – UCD, UCC and Trinity. All three are producing outstanding graduates across the range.’’

Mr Herlihy is general manager and vice-president, global advertiser operations, with Google.

It was the December meeting with Mr O’Keeffe which prompted the Department of Education inquiry into grade inflation in the Leaving Cert and in higher education. Mr O’Keeffe is expected to give details of the findings to the Dáil tomorrow.

The Minister has hinted that some Irish third-level colleges are operating below the expected quality threshold.

But he has stressed that he is not engaged in a witch-hunt. His focus is on challenging colleges to go to the next level.

It is understood that the chief executive of the Higher Education Authority, Tom Boland, was also alerted to concerns about grade inflation during a meeting with a US multinational company six months ago.

Last year, Mr Boland also voiced fears of declining academic standards, where what he termed “spoon-fed’’ Leaving Cert students were struggling to cope at third level.

On RTÉ radio on Monday, Mr Herlihy expressed dismay about the standard of CVs prepared by graduates from some colleges. Many, he said, were littered with basic spelling and grammatical errors.

Yesterday, the president of NUI Maynooth , Prof John Hughes, disputed claims of widespread grade inflation.

Interviewed on RTÉ’s News at One, he said the cut in resources for higher education represented a much more serious threat to academic standards.

He was responding to reports that the rate of first-class honours degrees awarded by most Irish universities has increased by more than 100 per cent since 1994,.

The study shows an increase of more than 700 per cent in the number of firsts awarded by NUI Maynooth over this period.

Prof Hughes said the awarding of first-class honours degrees at NUI Maynooth today is fully in line with the Irish university sector. The quality and standard of degrees awarded by NUI Maynooth are externally and independently validated by academics from leading international universities.

In another reaction, the president of Dublin City University, Ferdinand von Prondzynski, said Irish education faced a series of problems. “We have a school system that is offering an education that, while staffed by dedicated teachers, is largely out of date, with questionable learning methods and with a syllabus that is not sufficiently adapted to society’s changing needs.”

Apparently, very happy with Trinity, UCD and UCC. Less so with other colleges and rumours of one college being "blacklisted" by multinationals.

gizmo555

KevinVonSpiel wrote: »

Can you provide a source or sources for your 20% figure there?

Here you go:

gizmo555 wrote: »

Wolf (2002) has explained how the UK has no economic use for a large proportion of the degree graduates generated each year by Universities there. Hesketh and Brown (2004) estimated that only one third of workers in the UK could be classified as having "knowledge based" jobs - the kind for which a degree might be necessary. They found that in the US, only a fifth of workers could be similarly categorised. In consequence, they argue that a great many university graduates are bound for disappointment. There will not be the number of high paying quality jobs they expect and their years in college will from an economic perspective be largely wasted. They estimate that only about 72,000 vacancies in the UK each year require a graduate, while there were over 300,000 graduates in 2005 with government plans to increase this number in the future. Employers in the UK seem to be in agreement with the view that there are too many graduates and that the expansion of higher education has adversely impacted on graduate quality (Association of Graduate Recruiters, 2004).

http://www.stopgradeinflation.ie/The_Consequences_of_Grade_Inflation.pdf

Is there any reason to suppose Ireland needs a significantly higher proportion of 3rd level graduates than the UK or US?

jmayo

I think a lot of posters have gone off on tangent about the ability of our second level and indeed third levels with the English language.

As can probably be seen from the state of my English, it probably would not be great and definetly would not rank up there with some of the posters gone before.

PS I suffer from a condition I label "dyslexic typing" where one finger types wrongly ahead of another.
Thus from becomes form, at becomes ta, etc.

Anyway I hated the second level language courses.
I destested poetry, prose, plays and I still believe reading it or rather memorising it was not really beneficial to my career or my general education.
Call me a philistine I have no interest in literature. :rolleyes:

I think we can lament all we want about people not reading poetry or prose, but I believe that is not the issue.
Yes it would increase peoples' vocabulary, but that's about it I believe.
Call me a philistine again I have no interest in literature. :rolleyes:

A bigger issue is that we do not really teach grammar, we do not teach the basic of English and that stems from very early on in the education process.
I have found Dutch people have a better understanding of the structure of the English language than I and probably most of my colleagues have.

I did very well at science, business and mathematical subjects, because I wanted to become an engineer and I duly did get a BE and a Masters in the area.
This was before the mid ninties when colleges like NIHE Limerick had no repeat structure (bar repeat the year), so you did it first time or you were screwed.

I think our biggest issue is in practical abilities in problem solving in the science, business and mathematical fields.
The leaving certificate is a memory test for most subjects with a few like Maths (honours in particular - since none of the easy theorems) being the ability to problem solve.
Thus notice how honours maths has both been dumped down and less students are taking it.

AFAIK the restrictions on having to have an honour in higher level maths has been removed for some third level course.
Perhaps one of our younger posters can clarify this statement ?
As an incentive in my day you not alone had to have an honour you got bonus points as well.

Even worse the colleges have now at last been found out for grade inflation and affectively running mickey mouse courses.

It will take time to rectify the situation and it will also take a mindset change from the government,dept of education and the general public that not everyone should get a third level education.

Sometimes I believe the barrier in this country to a third level education is a lack of funds rather than a lack of brains.

Plowman

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gizmo555

Plowman wrote: »

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3rd level fees were abolished by Labour's Niamh Bhreathnach during her term as Minister for Education from 1993 to 1997.

This was a scandalous decision which was rightly described by the then president of UCC, Michael Mortell, as a bribe to the middle classes by Labour in the hope that they could repeat the "Spring Tide" of the 1992 general election in 1997.

Labour spun it as a way to improve equality of access to education - the truth was and is that for really disadvantaged students, fees are not the main issue, the paltry level of grants is. As a lifelong Labour voter I was never so pleased to see any TD lose their seat as I was when Bhreathnach was shown the door in 1997 - she was a disgrace to her office and the Labour party.

"Free" 3rd level education (it's not free of course - it comes out of our taxes) also feeds into the issue of too many students at 3rd level doing courses of dubious value - you don't value what you get for nothing and if students were obliged to weigh up the cost of their course against their potential future worth, it would concentrate minds.

KevinVonSpiel

gizmo555 wrote: »

Here you go:

& quotes: http://www.stopgradeinflation.ie/The_Consequences_of_Grade_Inflation.pdf

This does not seem to have been published in any peer reviewed journal or anything. Isn't it just an opinion piece? The citation of Wolf (2002) doesn't inspire a lot of confidence either.

Plowman

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PeakOutput

jmayo wrote: »

Sometimes I believe the barrier in this country to a third level education is a lack of funds rather than a lack of brains.

seriously? it is stupidly cheap to go to univeristy in ireland even for what you are getting

if i didnt have to live away from home my entire university degree would cost me only 6,000euro + maybe another thousand for books and stuff

Permabear

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jmayo

PeakOutput wrote: »

seriously? it is stupidly cheap to go to univeristy in ireland even for what you are getting

if i didnt have to live away from home my entire university degree would cost me only 6,000euro + maybe another thousand for books and stuff

It is cheap in comparison to say the US, but if you don't happen to have the money to fund yourself, can't earn enough during the year, have difficulty getting a grant and folks aren't able to cough up then you need loans.

Now I went to college in an era when I as a student could not get a loan without a guarantor, which means the parents have to affectively take responsibility for the loan.
Sometimes they can't sign up for yet another loan.
Somehow I believe those days are back.

Look at how many richer kids get grinds, sometimes repeat their leaving certs in dedicated institutions to get an advantage in the points race.
Are you saying money doesn't play a role in them getting leg up ?

BTW speaking of the modern generation and the inproper use of the English language, I notice it quiet a lot around there that people never seem to use capital letters

gizmo555

KevinVonSpiel wrote: »

This does not seem to have been published in any peer reviewed journal or anything. Isn't it just an opinion piece?

So what? The references you asked for are provided in it.

KevinVonSpiel wrote: »

The citation of Wolf (2002) doesn't inspire a lot of confidence either.

She's confidence-inspiring enough for me.

Alison Wolf is the Sir Roy Griffiths Professor of Public Sector Management [at Kings College, London], and specialises in the relationship between education and the labour market.

CFlower

The journalism and the politicians are appallingly lazy and slack in the way they are dealing with that.

The CEOs seem to be exclusively be referring to IT Grads. Or at least in the main. That should be clarified.

It would be ridiculous to accept the rubbishing of the entire Irish graduate population on this basis.

It is a matter of real urgency that the real problems should be properly identified, not by hearsay and ranting, and that they should be dealt with.

If there is one IT that is dragging the whole thing down, that could be turned around very quickly. Also courses should not be sold as something they are not.

CFlower

donegalfella wrote: »

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These underprivileged children don't go to University (another problem altogether).
Irish leaving certificate students have a good standard of literacy in comparative terms.

CFlower

KevinVonSpiel wrote: »

This does not seem to have been published in any peer reviewed journal or anything. Isn't it just an opinion piece? The citation of Wolf (2002) doesn't inspire a lot of confidence either.

It is a sloppy piece of work. It is full of interesting material and raises important issues, but conflates UK and Irish statistics and studies.

I would give it at best a C -.

Permabear

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KevinVonSpiel

gizmo555 wrote: »

So what? The references you asked for are provided in it.

Oh, I'm sorry... I was just looking for something a little more weighty than a reference to an apparently non-peer-reviewed apparently self-published paper that cites a book termed "controversial" by its publishers & that itself seems a bit of polemic.

How dash-ed critical reader-y of me.

sportz

Plowman wrote: »

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What if students GENUINELY DESERVE A FIRST CLASS DEGREE?

What you're saying is they should be unfairly cut down in their exams-pathetic. You obviously know little about the education system when you judge others that way.

Most students are hard workers and many never get the grades they aim for. This is because they are hard marked by Lecturers. Few people get an A in most Irish Universities because the exam board meetings aim to limit the number of A's.

The statistics don't lie, but Batt O'Keefe does not seem to like the fact the statistics didn't go his way. Now comes the witch hunt.

Permabear

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CnaG

donegalfella wrote: »

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It's clear that people here are saying that grading standards have been dropped in the past 15 years. But is it so impossible that the advent of the internet has let students write better essays, pushing up those marks? And if it's so different here to elsewhere, why then are external examiners (from international universities in Maynooth's case) upholding firsts and seconds?

I think this is being majorly hyped up. I'm actually going to try not to care any more. So long as it doesn't deprive me or my other hardworking classmates of our firsts and 2.1s I'm not going to let it bother me. If the witchhunt does deprive us of our grades, actively damaging our chances of being accepted onto postgrad courses, then heads will roll (figuratively and possibly literally...)

ei.sdraob

jmayo wrote: »

BTW speaking of the modern generation and the inproper use of the English language, I notice it quiet a lot around there that people never seem to use capital letters

yes :P

would you believe me if i tell you i got an A in honours English for the leaving

all them years of programming inside IDE's with auto complete have made me very lazy, and structure my sentences "programmatically"

sorry everyone

jmayo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes :P

would you believe me if i tell you i got an A in honours English for the leaving

all them years of programming inside IDE's with auto complete have made me very lazy, and structure my sentences "programmatically"

sorry everyone

Go sit in the corner and start using a case sensitive OS where there can be a big difference between i and I.

That'll teach you to type properly

Speaking of people with degrees and typing on computers.
A while back I had to give someone a password for a system and it had a zero, 0 in it.
I ended up talking them through it on the phone and could not figure out for the life of me why they could not get into system. I was able to get in using same account and password.
Then I went to see them and lo and behold they were hitting the "o" (oooh) key. :eek:
When I said that the password had a zero, they said yeah that's the key I am pressing.
I just changed the password, it was easier and less stressful.

sirromo

donegalfella wrote:

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Kevin Myers has a good article (here) on grade inflation in today's Irish Independent.

RonMexico

I have seen evidence of grade inflation with my own eyes so all I have to say is that this report, as expected, is a joke and a cover-up.

Permabear

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