'Grade inflation' in exam results investigation

The Saint · 02-03-2010 08:44AM

This crowd have been flagging this issue regarding ITs and universities since 2007 and have widely been dismissed. Although now when Intel state it attention must be paid. :rolleyes:

http://www.stopgradeinflation.ie/index.html

gizmo555 · 02-03-2010 11:33AM

The Saint wrote: »

This crowd have been flagging this issue regarding ITs and universities since 2007 and have widely been dismissed. Although now when Intel state it attention must be paid. :rolleyes:

http://www.stopgradeinflation.ie/index.html

Very interesting stuff. One of these guys, Dr Brendan Guilfoyle of Tralee IT was on Morning Ireland today (Tue Mar 2).

A key point from one of the papers on their website is that far too many people are going into 3rd level - this is a waste of these people's time and valuable educational resources which would be better used at 1st and 2nd level:

Wolf (2002) has explained how the UK has no economic use for a large proportion of the degree graduates generated each year by Universities there. Hesketh and Brown (2004) estimated that only one third of workers in the UK could be classified as having "knowledge based" jobs - the kind for which a degree might be necessary. They found that in the US, only a fifth of workers could be similarly categorised. In consequence, they argue that a great many university graduates are bound for disappointment. There will not be the number of high paying quality jobs they expect and their years in college will from an economic perspective be largely wasted. They estimate that only about 72,000 vacancies in the UK each year require a graduate, while there were over 300,000 graduates in 2005 with government plans to increase this number in the future. Employers in the UK seem to be in agreement with the view that there are too many graduates and that the expansion of higher education has adversely impacted on graduate quality (Association of Graduate Recruiters, 2004). Employers also believe that degrees have declined as a measure of ability in the previous ten years. A survey of employers carried out for a Channel 4 "30 Minutes" programme in May 2004 entitled "Dumbed Down Degrees" found that 70% of employers believed that degrees have declined as a measure of ability over the previous ten years (Channel 4 News, 2004).

http://www.stopgradeinflation.ie/The_Consequences_of_Grade_Inflation.pdf

Plowman · 02-03-2010 11:34AM

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anymore · 02-03-2010 11:44AM

gizmo555 wrote: »

Very interesting stuff. One of these guys, Dr Brendan Guilfoyle of Tralee IT was on Morning Ireland today (Tue Mar 2).

A key point from one of the papers on their website is that far too many people are going into 3rd level - this is a waste of these people's time and valuable educational resources which would be better used at 1st and 2nd level:
Wolf (2002) has explained how the UK has no economic use for a large proportion of the degree graduates generated each year by Universities there. Hesketh and Brown (2004) estimated that only one third of workers in the UK could be classified as having "knowledge based" jobs - the kind for which a degree might be necessary. They found that in the US, only a fifth of workers could be similarly categorised. In consequence, they argue that a great many university graduates are bound for disappointment. There will not be the number of high paying quality jobs they expect and their years in college will from an economic perspective be largely wasted. They estimate that only about 72,000 vacancies in the UK each year require a graduate, while there were over 300,000 graduates in 2005 with government plans to increase this number in the future. Employers in the UK seem to be in agreement with the view that there are too many graduates and that the expansion of higher education has adversely impacted on graduate quality (Association of Graduate Recruiters, 2004). Employers also believe that degrees have declined as a measure of ability in the previous ten years. A survey of employers carried out for a Channel 4 "30 Minutes" programme in May 2004 entitled "Dumbed Down Degrees" found that 70% of employers believed that degrees have declined as a measure of ability over the previous ten years (Channel 4 News, 2004).

http://www.stopgradeinflation.ie/The_Consequences_of_Grade_Inflation.pdf

These have comments have relevance for the arguement that PS salaries are higher than average private salaries becuse of the higher percentage of PS who have degrees.

murphaph · 02-03-2010 12:03PM

This isn't a uniquely Irish phenomenon. I do a German class once a week that helps me with my written German. As part of the class we have to read and analyse German newspaper articles, and write summaries of them etc.

Last week, the piece was about a dumbing down of the German Abitur over the past 20 years. Grades have improved year on year while employers have complained about a general lack of cop on among graduates. Sound familiar?

I think many countries are facing this debate. We can't all achieve firsts, so if the students are really working harder, then the exams need to be tougher to really single out the creme de la creme. I was always an average student and I make no bones about it. I got a first, barely, but I know there were smarter folks than me who deserved it more. There should be a way to differentiate these smarter folks, so they aren't lost in the ether and as a consequence, lost to our country!

Ireland is small and really needs to capitalise on any really smart people we have.

97i9y3941 · 02-03-2010 12:17PM

seen a man from google talking about the interviews and stateing that many of the candidates dont have experience solving some problems they might throw at them,now its like in every industry,how the hell you suppose to gain experience if you cant even get a job in first place,its just going around in a circle again and again back onto the dole queue you go?..

gizmo555 · 02-03-2010 12:20PM

anymore wrote: »

These have comments have relevance for the arguement that PS salaries are higher than average private salaries becuse of the higher percentage of PS who have degrees.

Well, of course we have seen "performance inflation" in the highest levels of the public service, where the bonuses which were supposed to reward excellent performance were awarded almost without exception to everyone who asked for one.

By retrospectively counting the bonus scheme as pay, the government has also contradicted its earlier position that the scheme was for rewarding high performance and was not a salary top-up. In effect, the scheme had been treated as a top-up since it began in 2002.

About 200 senior public servants participated in the scheme, which allowed them to apply for a bonus of up to 20 per cent of their salaries every year.

In practice, almost everyone who applied for a bonus received one; most were paid a bonus of around 10 per cent of salary, although in some years a small number were refused.

The bonus was not pensionable. In effect, virtually all of Ireland’s most senior public servants were adjudged to be exceeding the normal requirements of their jobs. Remarkably, they were all judged to be exceeding the requirements by a very similar degree - as the ‘‘performance related’’ bonuses nearly all came in around the same level, of 10 per cent of salary.

Leading by example, indeed!

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2010/01/10/story46666.asp

Permabear · 02-03-2010 01:08PM

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97i9y3941 · 02-03-2010 01:21PM

i think its great that theres more people getting to third level,its a option not many of our parents have,i think problem lies in too many qualfied people around not enough work that suit them,"only the jobs that the min skill would be suitable for :mad:"*so much so not many people are doing the jobs but rather sit and draw welfare..

gizmo555 · 02-03-2010 01:33PM

Fred83 wrote: »

i think its great that theres more people getting to third level,its a option not many of our parents have

I also think it's great that more people have the option of going to 3rd level. However, the point is that many of the people who are currently exercising that option will not benefit from it, which is wasting both their time and scarce educational resources.

(Great article, by the way, DF - one which should be mandatory reading for pushy south Dublin and Montenotte mothers!)

Permabear · 02-03-2010 01:37PM

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jmayo · 02-03-2010 01:37PM

I was part time working as a TA/lab assistant in a university in 1994 and even then some junior lecturers could tell you that they were being told to increase the grades and not fail so many people.
It was seen as a way of making sure our unemployment figures didn't increase.

I was one of those doing computer labs with certain second year computer related degree students who couldn't tell how an if ... then statement worked or how a for loop worked. :rolleyes:
These were second years who had supposedly passed a couple of computer programming courses and projects the preceeding year.
How these people made it through to second year was truly mind boggling.

The quality of some of the IT related graduates that arrived into the workforce during the dotcom bubble was poor to say the least.
Even worse a lot of them had no interest and couldn't give a toss becuase they had the luxury of not having to try hard to get or keep a job.
That was reason that some companies tried to source good staff in the likes of South Africa.

Look how many more people started going to thrid level college from the mid 90s onwards.
The only major break on this was the number of young men who decided to enter construction trades from 2002 onwards.
Did we suddenly become very intelligent or was it a case that there were loads of third level places on offer as there was a drive to get everyone a third level qualification of some sort ?

It appeared to be quantity over qaulity, so that the IDA or whoever could tell a prospective FDI that we were so well educated.

Amtmann · 02-03-2010 02:24PM

There's no doubt that many third level students have been dumbed down. More worrying, though, is that these students seem to revel in it. Articulateness in speech or prose is frequently derided and met with scorn by people who literally gape their ignorance at you. Post something with the words 'epitome' or 'recalcitrant' in the UCC forum for instance, and you'll be booed out of the place for not "speaking normally".

The amount of semi-literate gibberish I've encountered from third-level students is very surprising. The ability to use a semi-colon or a colon is now a rare thing; and, what's worse, many graduates with these deficiencies are now in the process of becoming primary and secondary school teachers.

Laminations · 02-03-2010 02:47PM

Furet wrote: »

There's no doubt that many third level students have been dumbed down. More worrying, though, is that these students seem to revel in it. Articulateness in speech or prose is frequently derided and met with scorn by people who literally gape their ignorance at you. Post something with the words 'epitome' or 'recalcitrant' in the UCC forum for instance, and you'll be booed out of the place for not "speaking normally".

The amount of semi-literate gibberish I've encountered from third-level students is very surprising. The ability to use a semi-colon or a colon is now a rare thing; and, what's worse, many graduates with these deficiencies are now in the process of becoming primary and secondary school teachers.

Stephen Fry would disagree with you using his 'evolution of language' argument.

http://boingboing.net/2009/01/07/stephen-fry-on-the-b.html

I'm not sure where I stand yet. Whatever about adherence to grammatical rules, I, like others feel that a verbose and wonderfully expressive english lexicon is being bastardised and diminished by younger generations but although I dont like it I agree with Fry and recognise this has always been the way language evolves with the times

Fry excoriates people who insist on "correctness" in language, and urges us all to speak in ways that entertain and please us, rather than adhering to some rigid, notional code (among other things, he has withering contempt for people who complain about the verbing of nouns, pointing out Shakespeare's proclivity for same, and the prevalence of verbed nouns such as "propositioning" in our everyday speech).

Kinski · 02-03-2010 02:48PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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To be fair, the old syllabus was badly in need of updating. When I sat my LC in 2000, the methods of textual analysis we encountered in the classroom were still largely derived from the New Criticism, a critical paradigm which had long-since passed its sell-by date. As such, reform was needed to make the LC course more relevant to the discipline of English at university level.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not defending the piece (that mark does seem far too high,) but I'd imagine the assessment criteria would concentrate on how well-written and internally-logical the compositions are - not how palatable the marker might find the views expressed therein. Polemic is a form of expression - as long as the student is conscious that that's what they're doing then I don't think it should be seen as a problem (bear in mind, Edmund Burke was once held up as an example of a great writer to second level students - his political views would hardly sit comfortably with many in contemporary Ireland.)

donegalfella wrote: »

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The Modernists seem to have fallen from favour - I studied Joyce, Eliot and Yeats for LC, I don't think any of those are on the syllabus now. However, much of the work of those writers may well be too complex for a bunch of 16/17-year-olds to study, so I wouldn't necessarily see that as a bad thing - while the expansion of the course to encompass film and visual imagery is a positive step.

Having said all that, I have heard from a couple of people who mark English at third level that the compositional skills of many new students aren't up to the expected standards. It wouldn't surprise me if the course has gotten easier, but I don't think the issues you raise here are the problem. Much as I hate the expression 'back to basics', that may well be what's needed here - a more rigorous approach to the teaching and marking of basic written expression.

Amtmann · 02-03-2010 04:06PM

Laminations wrote: »

Stephen Fry would disagree with you using his 'evolution of language' argument.

http://boingboing.net/2009/01/07/stephen-fry-on-the-b.html

I'm not sure where I stand yet. Whatever about adherence to grammatical rules, I, like others feel that a verbose and wonderfully expressive english lexicon is being bastardised and diminished by younger generations but although I dont like it I agree with Fry and recognise this has always been the way language evolves with the times

I don't think he would disagree. Of course language evolves. The best example in English that I can think of is the loss of 'thou' as the informal second person personal pronoun. Few people appreciate just how profound a development this was, and how it has affected the culture of English-speaking people everywhere.

But to get back to my point: What I'm talking about isn't evolution; it is simply a lack of fluency and an inability to understand many words that, although not particularly common, shouldn't cause people to stare agog at you when you use them.

Change is fine and natural, so long as it means that understanding is maintained or improved. Sadly this isn't the case today among a lot of Irish young people.

Question: What's one of the words you could use to describe someone who has abandoned or renounced a conviction which they had previously strongly believed in?

Answer: An apostate.

Previously 'apostate' was used solely in a religious context. Enter Fry's evolution, where the word can now be applied creatively to describe a person who has abandoned any formerly strongly held belief or preference. In this case, evolution works to enrich a language and improve articulateness. The same process is at work when nouns are turned into verbs (such as 'to text').

I think in many cases we are seeing the opposite of that process in Ireland today, mainly because of a contemptuous attitude towards many words. In short, we are seeing a declining standard in vocabulary, not to mention grammar.

Permabear · 02-03-2010 04:12PM

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gizmo555 · 02-03-2010 04:44PM

My favourite piece on using language "properly" is Orwell's essay Politics and the English Language - as he wrote, "the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts".

almostnever · 02-03-2010 06:15PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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This irritates me on a profound level. I'm currently repeating my Leaving Cert, and I got an A1 in English last year. I hope to get another one this year. But I think that it is an absolute disgrace that mechanics is worth a mere ten percent of any given answer. When you see people getting A1s for learning off some essay that they got at the Institute or at grinds and you know they can't differentiate between "your" and "you're", it is enough to make you lose faith. Correct grammar is not seen as an important aspect of the exam, the course, or the answer. It can be impossible to distinguish between the best students and those who don't have a clue but manage to get respectable grades on the back of a memorised essay.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Eliot and Yeats are both on the poetry course this year.

BillyBoyBad · 02-03-2010 07:54PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Over 2/3 of students at Trinity??? :eek: That's crazy

Valmont · 02-03-2010 08:07PM

Time Magazine wrote: »

I've heard a few people going to some private colleges and they claim you basically only have to pay your fees and show up to get a nice grade.

That seems to be a common opinion of private colleges although I have yet to see any stats to back it up. All I can offer is that in 2008, my course of choice in a private university had 0% of students earning a first and in 2009 it was 1.2%. This is notably less than the 13% levels you will see in Trinity or UCD.
Hardly comprehensive but it shows you that you don't just have to turn up and pay the fees to get a 1.1. That is an unfair assertion especially considering that it is based on hearsay.

DJDC · 02-03-2010 09:00PM

Its simple really. Modern capitalist societies only need say 20% of their workforce to be degree qualified and this demand constraint was matched well by graduate supply globally until around 1990. Since then, there has been a massive increase in the the number of graduates, participation in Ireland for example rising above 60%. The reasons for this are complicated and I will not discuss that here.

However the conseqeunces of this rise in graduates has serious implications for the 2 in 3 "extra" graduates who are released into a world where their qualifications are essentially worthless. The harsh reality is that the value added by their diploma/degree is tiny (purely in an economic rather than holistic sense) and they have wasted 3-4 years at a crucial stage of their career development.

In essence nothing as really changed. In 1980s, the 20% of the workforce who went to university all had a realistic chance of good graduate jobs either in Ireland or abroad upon graduating. Now only 33% of graduates (so 20% of the 60% participation, therefore the same as 1980) face that same opportunity.

The solution is simple yet politically impossible. All college courses that fail to attract applicants of a certain standard defined my minimum LC points (e.g. 300 points) should be closed down. This would lead to huge conslidation in the IoT sector saving vast amounts of money for the govt and allowing the students involved to concentrate on vocational education rather than wasting their time on a qualification that has little merit upon qualification.

rainbowtrout · 02-03-2010 09:43PM

Furet wrote: »

I think in many cases we are seeing the opposite of that process in Ireland today, mainly because of a contemptuous attitude towards many words. In short, we are seeing a declining standard in vocabulary, not to mention grammar.

Many students in second level do not spend any time reading books for pleasure any more, and have a very poor vocabulary.

About three years ago I was teaching a fifth year class and there was one particular student (the class clown) who liked to ask stupid questions on anything but the topic in question, to disrupt the class and get a few laughs.

One day I stopped him as he was about to open his mouth and said

'Kevin, is your question relevant to the topic we are studying?'

I was met with a vacant look, not only from him but also the rest of the students in the class. I asked what the confused expressions were all about only to hear the following: 'What does relevant mean?'

I was amazed, and I find myself explaining very basic vocabulary and spelling words more and more each year. My current fifth years were up in arms a few months ago when I wrote the word raspberry on the board. I should really know by now what to expect, but there were students who were outraged at my spelling of raspberry. Not one of them knew there was a 'p' in the middle and all 20 of them thought I had lost the plot completely and that I was wrong.

WalterMitty · 02-03-2010 10:31PM

i noticed in college that different streams of business grads got differnt proportions of first class amd second class honours. Those doing finance got higher amounts of first class honours than the accountancy stram despite both groups having near identical average ability. The only difference is that the accountancy degree gane significant professional exam exemptions so they seemed to be marked harder to enable the college maintain the integrity of the degree in eyes of the professional accountancy bodies. in other courses in college where there was no professional expetions from degrees there was much higher proportions of first class honours despite many of these degree having lower entry points than the degrees offering professional exemptions.

Eliot Rosewater · 02-03-2010 11:16PM

It will be interesting to see if the report has any impact. Unfortunately students - like so many people - bear no desire to look beyond the immediately obvious when judging an issue like this. Many students will be mildly supportive of grade inflation because they see it is a chance for them to get a better grade without any increased study. This is ignoring the many negative effects of grade inflation as demonstrated here.

At the end of the day it is the most talented and most determined students who are hurt the most. Those who would have gotten a first class honours in times past will now see others less deserving than themselves getting the same degree.

I think a part of the issue (for the LC) may be the CAO. The CAO system rewards only points, a superficial currency easily acquired through rote learning and exam specific study. Perhaps a system that rewarded real ability and learning would put the dampeners on this. At the moment entry into the UCC Maths course requires a B3 in honours maths. This allows the government a huge amount of freedom in that it can change the LC maths course to push grades up. However if UCC instead stipulated that the prospective candidate have knowledge of a certain list of topics and concepts, the department would have to teach those topics to the required level. There would be no opportunity to take the easy way out to look good on paper, as it were.

PeakOutput · 02-03-2010 11:56PM

grade inflation is great for average students but dire for students who want a good well renowned degree when they walk out after 4 years

i will get a first either way but id way prefer to put in the extra work and get it in a degree that marks hard and gives only a few (max10/15%) of students firsts

i still think i will be ok in the long run but its very serious when employers like google and intel say they wont even bother hiring form our its

dan_d · 03-03-2010 12:20PM

I have to say I am so glad that the realisation has finally sunk in that we have a problem. I got an A1 in english the whole way through school, but I'm a reader, I love books. It's appalling to think there are people out there with the same grade, and a lesser standard of english. And it's not a reflection on them - it's a reflection on the system that makes it okay to get high grades, but be unable to spell properly. The same applies to all other languages we study in this country - it's a very Irish attitude. Sure once you get your point across it doesn't matter what you've written.Ridiculous.

My degree was maths based, as is my job, and I am regularly horrified at the abysmal standard of english among some of my colleagues. There are those who keep dictionaries and thesaureses in their offices, because they know they're not great (and fair play to them) but there are also those who couldn't care less. I'm all for an intensive rehaul of the system, but it will have to be done over a number of years and gradually.

Permabear · 03-03-2010 01:21PM

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anymore · 03-03-2010 01:45PM

dan_d wrote: »

I have to say I am so glad that the realisation has finally sunk in that we have a problem. I got an A1 in english the whole way through school, but I'm a reader, I love books. It's appalling to think there are people out there with the same grade, and a lesser standard of english. And it's not a reflection on them - it's a reflection on the system that makes it okay to get high grades, but be unable to spell properly. The same applies to all other languages we study in this country - it's a very Irish attitude. Sure once you get your point across it doesn't matter what you've written.Ridiculous.

My degree was maths based, as is my job, and I am regularly horrified at the abysmal standard of english among some of my colleagues. There are those who keep dictionaries and thesaureses in their offices, because they know they're not great (and fair play to them) but there are also those who couldn't care less. I'm all for an intensive rehaul of the system, but it will have to be done over a number of years and gradually.

I and others went on to an ordinary degree at night after spending three years doing a Certificate in the subject area. A lecturer , who had been acknowledged as good in the Cert subjects, told us when he commenced the degree subjects he was doing with us " Lads you all did the hard work for the Cert, you can relax now". He was as good as his word and we didnt do a great deal work for his subject and he gave a fair indicator of the areas the exam questions would be focussed on. Education ?

AARRRGH · 03-03-2010 02:43PM

I've been saying this is a problem for years, but no one would listen to me.

College courses have been dumbed down (computer science courses without maths?!), and lecturers will do anything to help people pass (including overlooking blatent plagiarism). And because the standard is so low anyone who makes any sort of effort will do very well.

I found this very irritating when I was doing my masters a few years ago. I was in a class of mongos yet some of them got firsts based on their pathetic theses.

It makes my genuine firsts seem worthless.

'Grade inflation' in exam results investigation

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