'Grade inflation' in exam results investigation

I did my LC in 2001. It was obvious enough even then judging by past papers that what we were doing was a lot easier. Past papers from more than 10 years ago were far, far more difficult and had most of us in shock. The course itself didn't even merit 2 years - not for the subjects I did. The only possible exception (again, only of the subjects I did) was physics, but our teacher told us they were tossing out a lot of the course the following year onwards (I don't know for certain?).
It was common knowledge among friends in uni that applied maths, for example, was getting easier year by year and they equated a B from one year to an A from the following year.
As for IT grads in universities, it was also generally agreed that standards had slipped a *lot*.

I know people are mentioning the free fees and saying they should be revoked, but I'm not entirely sure I agree. I do agree having students showing up for a couple years and wasting their time is a problem, but perhaps academic standards should be set higher to compensate for this. I don't think it should all come down to money and buying yourself a degree. If fees *have* to be re-introduced, standards still need to be higher, and at least increase the number of scholarships!

nothing

I don't know about the whole Leaving Cert situation, but from a stats point of view a hell of a lot of the information that's being thrown about is incredibly misleading. In 1994, 1.5% of degrees awarded got a 1st. In 2004, this was 11.1%. So this is a 640% increase (I think) in 1sts, if all you're comparing is the two figures. In fact the increase in students awarded this grade is less than 10% higher. In 1994, we had 670 degrees awarded, compared to 1175 in 2004.

There's also the fact that minimum CAO requirements have significantly risen for entry to degree courses in those 10 years.

{I've gotten all the figures from http://www.stopgradeinflation.ie/Gra...ity_Sector.pdf and all are based on NUIM since they seem to have the worst of the so called effects}

Anyway, this seems to be a retrospective study, not to mention the fact that it's observational, and the statistics are sketchy at best, and used purely in a misleading manner, I'd be very very skeptical about grade inflation overall. The percentages are thrown around willy-nilly (<- my favourite scientific term!), with no real explanation, no real statistical methods used to verify their "results". Simple frequencies, and playing around with them, making claims that, without context, to the lay person will sound bad/good, depending on the opinion of the researcher, do not give the whole picture.

And then there's the official response from the NUIM press office :

Statement re Grade Inflation

The awarding of first class honours degrees at NUI Maynooth today is fully in line with the Irish University sector.

The majority of students graduating from NUI Maynooth in 1994 were undertaking the more broadly based BA General and BSc General, which did not have honours classifications, and therefore first class honours degrees could not be awarded. The analysis produced by TCD did not take general degrees into account and is incorrect.

Today all undergraduate students admitted are enrolled in honours degree programmes. In 2009, the cut off entry points for Arts at NUI Maynooth was the highest of all NUI Universities and 13.6% of students graduating were awarded a first class honours degree. This accounts for the significant rise in first class honours degrees over the period under review. The comparison percentage is high because the college was starting from a low base in 1994.

The quality and standard of degrees awarded by NUI Maynooth are externally and independently validated by academics from leading international universities.

NUI Maynooth’s international standing is reflected in the fact that it is the global education partner for Intel, and home to IVI (The Innovation Value Institute) a joint research institute set up by Intel and NUI Maynooth, which was awarded to NUI Maynooth in 2006 over MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology).

If anyone can point me in the direction of a more reliable paper on the matter, or even more information, I'd appreciate it

dent

Anyone see figures for grade inflation in DIT (Haven't seen any in the papers)?

Cannibal Ox

Seems to me that people are taking this as a reason to increase difficulty in the hopes of cutting the wheat from the chaff and I don't really think that's the right way to look at it. If you simply raise the difficulty involved in getting in to university, and to stay in university, you aren't solving the problem. The problem isn't that students aren't facing high enough standards, it's that they aren't achieving the standards that we think, hope, and want, them to achieve. Why aren't they?

The physical state of some schools in this country can be appalling, and the resources those schools can draw on can be equally as appalling. The entire structure of secondary school, from the courses available to the content of those courses needs to be re-examined and improved. Literacy levels can be mind blowingly bad in certain areas of the country. Kids with special needs are being ignored and are having their funding cut. Kids with money can access grind schools and get an unfair advantage over other kids in the leaving cert based simply on their parents pockets. The education system in Ireland, in short, is awful. It needs to be seriously improved, and it needs to be more equal, more enabling, and more cultivating of individuals talents than it is now.

(Whether those talents are in IT or Art. The idea that some subjects are somehow more important than others strikes me as incredibly limiting to what people can achieve.)

I don't disagree with the general sentiment that Irish universities are too easy. I do agree with that, I'm flicking through an undergraduate curriculum for an english uni at the moment and I'm blown away by how much harder it is then my undergrad curriculum. I do disagree with taking grade inflation as an excuse to reduce access to third level by upping the ante. I wholeheartedly believe that given the right conditions, the right support, that a huge number of kids in Ireland have the capacity not only to get to third level, but to exceed at third level.

It's highly unlikely anybody is going to have to take exams monday to friday till the age of 65. Being able to pass an exam is supposed to show that you know what you're being asked, but exams can be circumvented. You can study one topic the night before and get lucky on the day. You can study four, and get screwed on the day with nerves. An exam isn't the be all and end all of a particular person's ability. It's their ability to take what they've learnt, and apply it that matters, and the best way to get a person to that level isn't through making life more difficult, but by teaching them better. Provide a better education to everyone in the country, and you will have a better qualified, and more capable, workforce that are able to apply what they've learnt in school and in university.

PeakOutput

it is very annoying to be stuck in an education system that is being so devalued

certain courses seem to have the right idea in this country by stating at the start how many firsts are available and if you want one you have to be in that top portion of the class but that you also have to reach a certain minimum standard(ie no curve to bring you up just to make up the numbers) but i dont understand why this isnt just the rule in all universities

it would make my life alot easier for applying to top post grad schools when i finish

sportz

donegalfella wrote: »

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If someone puts in the work, they deserve the grade to reflect that. Like it or not.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Again, what if that genuinely reflected the standard? Unless someone proves otherwise, all this is a storm in the tea cup fueled by envy against the high achievers.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I think theres 2 parallels that could be drawn there. First, students actually putting in the work (while at college) but when they graduate they need to have hands-on experience. Most third levels just focus on a 3-6 month placement- hardly enough to prepare one for the industry.....

nesf

sportz wrote: »

If someone puts in the work, they deserve the grade to reflect that. Like it or not.

It's not just about work. It's also about ability. Just because someone works hard doesn't mean they should get top marks etc. What matters is the quality of the answer, not how much work that went into it.

Permabear

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Lockstep

As an aside, one of my lecturers received an assignment which was mainly in text speak.

Permabear

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Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Honestly not joking. He was horrified.

Valmont

donegalfella wrote: »

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You're suspiciously fluent in text speak DF!

MaceFace

I think everyone should have a look at this.
It is without doubt one of the most thought provoking videos you are likely to see on education.

One of the topics Ken talks about is how 30 years ago a second level qualification was considered good. Then it was a degree, now its a masters or a PhD.

The entire model is just broken and needs serious rethinking.
Lets have a course that involves leaving cert students following the stock market or putting together a business plan or even writing a song in Irish.

Canis

seithon wrote: »

I don't want this to sound like I'm bragging here.. but my own experience is this.
I'm in collage as a mature student having left education before my junior cert of all things, I started in a class that started off with 30 young fresh leaving certified folk... when I enter 3rd year in my collage their will only be 6 of us, the rest having failed for some very stupid reasons.

A number of my classmates simply can't handle concepts of common sense or analytical thinking etc required by a computing course and it shows. I honestly get the feeling that their extra 4 or 5 years education in secondary school have not prepared them one iota for the course.

People are being educated beyond their capacity for analytical thought. It makes life a pain because more intelligent people have to keep correcting their errors - life would be easier if they weren't "educated".

Peter Medawar wrote: "the spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well-developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytic thought".

Canis

donegalfella wrote: »

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This finding is not surprising; There should be people in middle class areas with difficulties too though and we shouldn't expect an improvement unless genetic engineering is undertaken given that learning only plays a small role in reading ability.

nesf

Canis wrote: »

Peter Medawar wrote: "the spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well-developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytic thought".

Good quote.

RonMexico

I'm sick to death of the attitude of entitlement that exists in lot of students these days.

"I worked hard, I deserve a good grade."

Eh, no. I could go out and spend all day trying to build a boat in my back garden but it doesn't mean that the end result will look even remotely like a boat, let alone float. :pac:

Students forget that hard work+knowledge+ability/technique = a good grade.

Then again that "I'm entitled" attitude has spread to more than just students.

KevinVonSpiel

RonMexico wrote: »

I'm sick to death of the attitude of entitlement that exists in lot of students these days.

"I worked hard, I deserve a good grade."

Eh, no. I could go out and spend all day trying to build a boat in my back garden but it doesn't mean that the end result will look even remotely like a boat, let alone float. :pac:

Students forget that hard work+knowledge+ability/technique = a good grade.

Then again that "I'm entitled" attitude has spread to more than just students.

I suppose you're entitled to your opinion.

Fishtits

I worked as a lecturer in one of our capitals noted academic institutions for many years.

I once posted a fail for a student, was informed by the powers that be that this was unacceptable. Said student was obviously a fail. When I asked about external review of results I was told - "don't worry about it".

The phrase "they will grow into it" in terms of the award and subsequent industrial experience was widespread at the time, inherited from the US, I believe.

Reesy

I thought it deliciously ironic that the article in Saturday's Indo bemoaning the fall in student literacy standards managed to spell the word 'of' with two fs.

Hardly the most difficult word, eh?

PeakOutput

Fishtits wrote: »

I worked as a lecturer in one of our capitals noted academic institutions for many years.

I once posted a fail for a student, was informed by the powers that be that this was unacceptable. Said student was obviously a fail. When I asked about external review of results I was told - "don't worry about it".

The phrase "they will grow into it" in terms of the award and subsequent industrial experience was widespread at the time, inherited from the US, I believe.

wow

RonMexico

Fishtits wrote: »

I worked as a lecturer in one of our capitals noted academic institutions for many years.

I once posted a fail for a student, was informed by the powers that be that this was unacceptable. Said student was obviously a fail. When I asked about external review of results I was told - "don't worry about it".

The phrase "they will grow into it" in terms of the award and subsequent industrial experience was widespread at the time, inherited from the US, I believe.

+1 - I've heard the exact same phrase trotted out to explain away woeful exam results.

PS: Nice username:D

KevinVonSpiel

Reesy wrote: »

I thought it deliciously ironic that the article in Saturday's Indo bemoaning the fall in student literacy standards managed to spell the word 'of' with two fs.

Hardly the most difficult word, eh?

Well, the Indo is, at best, a Foundation Level Paper.

Byron85

donegalfella wrote: »

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A quote or two taken from that article,

The meeting was told that while some companies were delighted with the calibre of graduates from UCD, TCD and UCC, they had concerns about other colleges.

There are reports in education circles that some colleges – one university and some institutes of technology – have been “black-listed” by US multinationals.

I wonder if there is any truth to the above regarding the "blacklisting" of certain institutes. W.I.T or Limerick Uni maybe?

ongarite

It was suggested in the SBP at the weekend, that the blacklisted colleges were all the ITs, excluding DIT and an unnamed university.

Plowman

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KevinVonSpiel

"So as the Minister for Education Batt O’Keeffe investigates standards in our education system, let us hope he is asking the right questions."

I think we've got two hopes there, one being Bob & the other Sweet FA.

Lockstep

Hmm, any word on NUIG?