Abortion .. but not the usual question

fuelinjection

Ok, I am just asking about abortion. But not in the way you would think. I don't want your choice for or against abortion. Instead I am asking why the abortion debate is generally argued by men.

I see in the newspapers and on internet forums that men battle men on the abortion issue. But it is rare that I find a women's point of view on it.
Now my thread is not to carry on the for/against arguments as there is another thread about it, but why are women not as passionate about abortion as men ? I suspect that women are as passionate about the subject as men.


(I could be wrong, it has happened before)

cynder

I would think its because they have no control over it, as it is not their body.

Women can do as they please without asking the daddy if it is ok.

The man may or maynot want to be a daddy and wants a say in the matter.

The_Minister

Last anti-abortion/pro-life march in Dublin had a fairly even female/male ratio so far as I could see.

fuelinjection

The_Minister wrote: »

Last anti-abortion/pro-life march in Dublin had a fairly even female/male ratio so far as I could see.

True, I was there. But the newspaper and internet arguements seem to be 100% male.

cch

Horrific simplistic generalisation coming up, but I think women are more compassionate and flexible in their opinion on this matter e.g. "well I'd like to think I'd never do it myself but I could understand if someone was in absolutely desperate circumstances why they would" and so not so many absolute arguments are thrown about on internet forums.
But for men it's more black and white.

I could probably phrase this better...

rainbow kirby

Because the idea that women might be entitled to make medical decisions for themselves tends to hit a nerve with many conservative men.

Nevyn

fuelinjection wrote: »

True, I was there. But the newspaper and internet arguements seem to be 100% male.

Seems is the problem with that most dicussion sites do not require a person to say what gender they are, I have been taking part in abortion debates in person and on the internet for the last 10 years and I am female but often mistaken for being male.

Also if you look for discussions which are sharing experiences and point of views on the topic you often find more women posting on the topic. Men and women often discuss matters in very different ways and the aggressive and at times antagonistic manner of point scoring debate is something men tend to take part in more then women.

The topic is also emotive for a lot of women and they don't seethe point of debating the issue when they have made up thier own minds even if that is not to judge until they are in that situation.

There is also that many women will know of at least one other woman who has had had an abortion as sisters and friends confide in each other were as very few men can think of a person that they know who has had an abortion.

So for a lot of men they are arguing non emotively over abstracts rather then engaging the other issues and that tends to put most women off taking part.

Boston

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Because the idea that women might be entitled to make medical decisions for themselves tends to hit a nerve with many conservative men.

True or false it still doesn't explain why it's seemingly mostly men on both sides.

Thaedydal wrote: »

The topic is also emotive for a lot of women and they don't seethe point of debating the issue when they have made up thier own minds even if that is not to judge until they are in that situation.

There is also that many women will know of at least one other woman who has had had an abortion as sisters and friends confide in each other were as very few men can think of a person that they know who has had an abortion.

So for a lot of men they are arguing non emotively over abstracts rather then engaging the other issues and that tends to put most women off taking part.

Pretty much this. It tends to be less personal for men, so theres a greater willingness to discuss the issues surrounding it in a black and white fashion.

Malari

Thaedydal wrote: »

The topic is also emotive for a lot of women and they don't seethe point of debating the issue when they have made up thier own minds even if that is not to judge until they are in that situation.

I think this is it too.

These debates always end up in trying to determine when a person becomes a person or where you should have a cut-off point for abortions. It's like saying you think adults should have the right to vote and then endlessly having to provide evidence for "what is an adult" and being constantly refuted. It's a side issue in my opinion. Just because I think that voting should be a universal privilege doesn't mean I have to determine what an adult is myself.

Sorry for the voting analogy - trying to keep away from actually dragging this into the abortion quagmire!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Because the idea that women might be entitled to make medical decisions for themselves tends to hit a nerve with many conservative men.

there is the small matter of a child growing inside of the pregnant woman too

panda100

fuelinjection wrote: »

True, I was there. But the newspaper and internet arguements seem to be 100% male.

Media outlets usually choose those in prominent positions to debate things. For the abortion debate this would be centralised around politicans,doctors and clergy, so It would be mainly men adding to media discussions. Those who have been affected or likely to be affected to a change in the law on abortion are quite excluded from the media debate.

I think If you go to a grassroots level then things are very different. You will see a lot more women involved in actively campaigning pro-choice and pro-life groups then men.

I genuinely have never noticed this. Maybe it's because I don't ever get involved in the debate myself. I have my opinion and that's that. I'm not going to fight it or argue it with anyone. I'm not going to force my opinion on someone else. Actually, maybe that applies to other women too?

shivvyban

Deleted User wrote: »

I genuinely have never noticed this. Maybe it's because I don't ever get involved in the debate myself. I have my opinion and that's that. I'm not going to fight it or argue it with anyone. I'm not going to force my opinion on someone else. Actually, maybe that applies to other women too?

I fully agree with you and I honestly never noticed this before. I refuse to get involved in these debates because no matter how different the question might be, how it might be asked, etc. it all ends up coming down to the same old story. Fair play, whoopsadaisydoodles, I'm gonna stick with you.

Orla K

Deleted User wrote: »

I genuinely have never noticed this. Maybe it's because I don't ever get involved in the debate myself. I have my opinion and that's that. I'm not going to fight it or argue it with anyone. I'm not going to force my opinion on someone else. Actually, maybe that applies to other women too?

That's the same way I feel about it. I've made up my own mind. Which is a very personal choice, I wouldn't let anyone sway me to one side or the other, I thought about it a lot. Basicly I just don't think I should try convince people what to do or think about this. If someone asks for my opinion on it I'll give it otherwise I won't say anything I don't think there's any point.



Oddly I did somehow end up on an abortion debate here on boards, the weird thing was when I said a friend of mine never once regreted hers, people didn't believe me (I've known this friend since I started school and can tell when she isn't honest) at that point I figured that everybody had their opinions on it and no matter what is said they won't change their minds.

fuelinjection

Interesting reading so far.
I don't want to say that women not commenting on something does not mean that they do not have an opinion or strongly held moral view, by the way.

Novella

I suppose at the end of the day a woman can decide to have an abortion whether or not the father of the child agrees with the decision. So perhaps it's a loss of power thing? Also, there seems to be a lot of, "Oh, men don't give a sh!t when it's an unplanned pregnancy", and a huge disregard of mens feelings concerning the subject.

Secondly, many women don't voice their feelings on abortion because they don't want to be judged for it etc. I'm sure there are a lot more women who have had abortions than who would openly admit it. There is still a stigma attached to abortion, it is still in many ways seen as immoral and heartless and just plain wrong. It can be hard for a woman to come out and say, "I've had an abortion", or, "Yeah, I support abortion.".
Perhaps it is just that little bit easier for a man to debate abortion because it will never physically be him having to deal with it.

shivvyban

fuelinjection wrote: »

I don't want to say that women not commenting on something does not mean that they do not have an opinion or strongly held moral view, by the way.

Ermmm, good....(?)

Nevyn

Novella wrote: »

Secondly, many women don't voice their feelings on abortion because they don't want to be judged for it etc. I'm sure there are a lot more women who have had abortions that who would openly admit it. There is still a stigma attached to abortion, it is still in many ways seen as immoral and heartless and just plain wrong. It can be hard for a woman to come out and say, "I've had an abortion", or, "Yeah, I support abortion.".
Perhaps it is just that little bit easier for a man to debate abortion because it will never physically be him having to deal with it.

I wrote a bit on this a few years aback.

http://thaedydal.wordpress.com/2005/08/16/taken-from-humanities/

IFPA Launches Campaign for Safe and Legal Abortion in Ireland

http://www.ifpa.ie/news/index.php?mr=111

Quote:
Between January 1980 and December 2004, at least 117,673 women traveled from Ireland for abortion services in Britain. There are no statistics to account for the number of women who travel to other countries for abortion services

http://www.ifpa.ie/abortion/iabst.html

These are not faceless numbers.

This is your sister, your friend, your work college, your aunt, your mother, your girl friend,
your ex girl friend, the person you see on the dart, luas, bus every morning,the girl in the newsagents,
or checkouts or the girl that was giving you the eye the last time you were in that bar.

Every one of them made that very hard choice made even harder
by having to travel and in years gone by not being able to get information.

And then you have those that could not get the money together.
Who say they love their kid but wished their life could have been different
but they did not have the money for flights ect.

Ideally every act of conception should be one that both people have planned
but life doesn’t work that way, esp with the lack of education and of cheap
contraception in this country.

So we ignore the big taboo.
Women don’t tell their stories.
They don’t share why they full of relief, guilt,sadness and happiness twice a year,
usually the date of their termination and that date the child would hve been born.

Being in the enviable position of having to think about an abortion is hard.
Having to make that choice is hard.
Having to make an appointment to get information or a referral is hard.
Keeping that appointment and talking out loud about your choice is hard.
Booking flights and traveling over, knowing that the mid morning flights
carry other women like you and the air stewards can spot them is hard.
Having to get into a taxi and give the name of the clinic and seeing the look of sympathy or shock hard.
Facing the dr and the counselor in the clinic in th UK and having then ask
you if you are sure even after you have traveled all the way there is hard.
Traveling home, telling no one, having to go through the mental , emotional,
hormonal and physical aftermath of a termination and most people not knowing what is up with you and you can’t tell them is hard.
Having this topic bandied about by people who have never been through it is hard.
Seeing pro lifer nuts on the streets of our city condemning so many women is hard.
Having it used as a political foot ball is hard.
Having it said that it is political foot ball is hard.
Having people make moral judgment about who would or could have a termination is hard.

And they say we DON’T punish women for having abortions in this country don’t make me laugh.

Being able to be there for a friend and travel with them and offer solace
and waiting for their call or text on those two days a year is hard also
but nothing compared to what they have been through.

Ickle Magoo

fuelinjection wrote: »

Ok, I am just asking about abortion. But not in the way you would think. I don't want your choice for or against abortion. Instead I am asking why the abortion debate is generally argued by men.

I see in the newspapers and on internet forums that men battle men on the abortion issue. But it is rare that I find a women's point of view on it.
Now my thread is not to carry on the for/against arguments as there is another thread about it, but why are women not as passionate about abortion as men ? I suspect that women are as passionate about the subject as men.


(I could be wrong, it has happened before)

I've never noticed a lack of women ready to debate abortion and there has certainly never been a lack of passion from either men or woman on the subject in my experience. I would think the lack of females cited in articles in relation to abortion is down to the fewer numbers of women in professions that are asked their views on abortion ie politics, medicine, etc.

panda100

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I would think the lack of females cited in articles in relation to abortion is down to the fewer numbers of women in professions that are asked their views on abortion ie politics, medicine, etc.

There's a lot more women in medicine than there is men!
However their not in prominent positions, and the media usually wants opinions from "experts" and those in authority,so thats why men are more vocal in the media about abortion.

Ickle Magoo

panda100 wrote: »

There's a lot more women in medicine than there is men!

Really? I thought that far more men study medicine than women...

panda100

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Really? I thought that far more men study medicine than women...

Nope,other way around, so much so that medical schools brought in new entry regulations into medicine last year to help restore a more equal gender balance.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0818/1224252774788.html

Ickle Magoo

Yes but I mean historically study medicine, are there not more male doctors than female? I hardly think the papers are going to 2009 med students for their views on abortion for the Sunday papers. I thought there was a greater percentage of the medical professionals for journalistic interview or quote purposes who are male, hence why those are the professionals the OP is reading about?

panda100

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Yes but I mean historically study medicine, are there not more male doctors than female? I hardly think the papers are going to 2009 med students for their views on abortion for the Sunday papers. I thought there was a greater percentage of the medical professionals for journalistic interview or quote purposes who are male, hence why those are the professionals the OP is reading about?

Women have been outnumbering med into medical school since the 1970's in this country. However, its a profession that promotional structures very much favour a man's lifestyle and a women who want a family will have to sacrifice a hell of a lot to make it to consultant or expert level. Most of those interviewed about abortion are usually consultants and at very senior level,which many women don't get too as they choose family over career.

Ickle Magoo

Yep, that's what I'm trying to say - not as concisely or as accurately as you!

WesforPres

Cos it's an ethical debate.Just because you're not directly involved in it does not mean you can't debate in it.By that logic a man murdering his child is something which women should shut up about.

alex73

fuelinjection wrote: »

Ok, I am just asking about abortion. But not in the way you would think. I don't want your choice for or against abortion. Instead I am asking why the abortion debate is generally argued by men.

I see in the newspapers and on internet forums that men battle men on the abortion issue. But it is rare that I find a women's point of view on it.
Now my thread is not to carry on the for/against arguments as there is another thread about it, but why are women not as passionate about abortion as men ? I suspect that women are as passionate about the subject as men.


(I could be wrong, it has happened before)

Strange, I am a man, but I have only ever heard women debate or denounce abortion.

WesforPres

WesforPres wrote: »

Cos it's an ethical debate.Just because you're not directly involved in it does not mean you can't debate in it.By that logic a man murdering his child is something which women should shut up about.

That doesn't explain why there are more men than women debating it though.

enda1

There are more men on the internet, simples.

sorrywhat

For me the reason why I wouldnt enter into a debate on this subject is because I am a woman and the fear of being judged by other women on what my opinion is.

If I was for abortion I may be perceived by other women as a baby killer.
If I was against abortion I may be perceived as giving up the rights to my body.

I just prefer to sit on the fence and keep the opinion to myself.

opinion guy

cch wrote: »

Horrific simplistic generalisation coming up, but I think women are more compassionate and flexible in their opinion on this matter e.g. "well I'd like to think I'd never do it myself but I could understand if someone was in absolutely desperate circumstances why they would" and so not so many absolute arguments are thrown about on internet forums.
But for men it's more black and white.

I could probably phrase this better...

Yes that is a horrific simplistic generalisation and I find it a bit offensive to be honest.

grindelwald wrote: »

I would think its because they have no control over it, as it is not their body.

Women can do as they please without asking the daddy if it is ok.

The man may or maynot want to be a daddy and wants a say in the matter.

Actually, I think there is something to this.

Obviously, male here, I rarely if ever will debate this issue. Mainly because I have a complex in the middle viewpoint and it a highly polarised argument so I usually can enrage both sides and frankly - noone ever listens on this topic.

goose2005

cch wrote: »

Horrific simplistic generalisation coming up, but I think women are more compassionate and flexible in their opinion on this matter e.g. "well I'd like to think I'd never do it myself but I could understand if someone was in absolutely desperate circumstances why they would" and so not so many absolute arguments are thrown about on internet forums.
But for men it's more black and white.

But it IS black and white - the foetus is either human or not, killing it/him/her is either murder or it isn't. The "woman's comment" you made is a lazy copout.

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Because the idea that women might be entitled to make medical decisions for themselves tends to hit a nerve with many conservative men.

But anti-abortionists don't see it as a "medical decision", but as a serious crime.

WindSock

It's mostly a philosophical debate on when life begins. If pregnant women considering abortion were to engage in this debate, they would probably have given birth 5 times before they come to a decision.

IT-Guy

Novella wrote: »

I suppose at the end of the day a woman can decide to have an abortion whether or not the father of the child agrees with the decision. So perhaps it's a loss of power thing? Also, there seems to be a lot of, "Oh, men don't give a sh!t when it's an unplanned pregnancy", and a huge disregard of mens feelings concerning the subject.

Secondly, many women don't voice their feelings on abortion because they don't want to be judged for it etc. I'm sure there are a lot more women who have had abortions than who would openly admit it. There is still a stigma attached to abortion, it is still in many ways seen as immoral and heartless and just plain wrong. It can be hard for a woman to come out and say, "I've had an abortion", or, "Yeah, I support abortion.".
Perhaps it is just that little bit easier for a man to debate abortion because it will never physically be him having to deal with it.

This post is spot on, fair play Novella. I've come across that attitude before whereby some women instantly assume a man doesn't want anything to do with the pregnancy. In my eyes they're as responsible for the creation of the baby as the women is so man up and speak your mind, whether you want to keep the baby or not.

The second highlighted bit really hit home as I personally experienced this with an ex. At the time I was anti-abortion and quite vocal about it. She defended the right to have an abortion and I remember being really surprised by this as she had a child by her previous ex. Turned out after the first child her and the ex split, they had a drunken fling around Xmas time a few years later (ex was involved with the child's life and still on the scene as such) and ended up pregnant. Not wanting to have another child by her ex she made plans for the trip across the water, the ex went with her, he was a good guy thankfully. I remember her telling me she was scared sh**less to tell me as she knew how I felt about abortion. Took me a while to sort out what I felt, I couldn't reconcile the image I had in my head of someone who had an abortion with the woman I knew to be a good mother and loved for it, standing in front of me, crying her eyes out in fear of being dumped for having had an abortion.

Kinda brought home the huge difference between abstract and reality, she still remains the only woman I know to have had an abortion, the lesson learned there was her fear of saying it is probably shared by a lot more women than I'll ever know and not to judge people simply on having had an abortion. Totally changed my opinion on the right to have an abortion in this country.