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Who, on this forum, is in favour of a 32 county Republic?
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Comments
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Liam Byrne wrote: »+1 to both of the above.
It's not up to us to lay claim to another "territory" - and in fact, we voted to relinquish such a claim.
I mean, I'd like if we owned Iraq and could have the oil reserves, but that's not my right either.
We would not be laying claim to anything.
You only need do that when you're taking something that didn't previously belong to you.
We did vote, (not I, but still) and it was a shameful day.0 -
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From a historic point of view alone, I like to see ireland a a one united state. - but if Ireland is EVER to become a united island as one complete state - this (I suspect) will only come about when those of the unionist/minority section feel completely at easy with those they encompass as a community and country.
Acts of violence now and those doing it are only shooting themselves in the foot.
They do their long term goal no favours - just made it even longer to reach yet again.
Thats not called progression - thats called stupidity.
We are advanced creatures with possible levels of higher thinking and only by using our collective heads will the dream become reality.
That is a fairly simplistic view of it.
Personally Id like to see one country on this Island, and people get on with a normal life, raising their kids and doing well.
I really want to see sectarian, biggoted, gerrymander tactics in the past.
Thankfully the system in place is working - just. But it will really come under pressure if SF become the largest single party.
Dont forget that the Orange Order is a sectarian one, and who ensured an apartheid system for decades after partition.
The whole point of the Orange Order is to maintain Unionist supremicy.
The recent pressure over the marching commission is a means - IMHO - of reminding people they have not gone away you know.
The Sunningdale agreement was aimed at powersharing - that was broken by Paisley who - after all the murders by both sides - eventually agreed to much the same thing on the Good Friday Agreement.
I honestly do not know of a case in the Republic where someone has been discriminated against for being from a protestant heritage - it is unimportant to the vast majority of people as to which sect of the spacedaddy you follow.
In addition to ending violence in Northern Ireland the basic problem of bigotry needs to be dealt with0 -
I am in favour of a United Ireland, but not exactly the way most people see it.
I don't want to see the current Rep. of Ireland simply take-over administration of the North.
Rather, i would prefer to see the dissolution of both the Republic and Northern Ireland and a NEW all-island country formed, with the possibility of re-joining the Commonwealth.0 -
A history of being at war with each other, sports that large groups were barred from playing, music about ousting parts of the population / 'glorious' victories over the other side, assume you're referring to Irish dancing which is a fairly minor part of our culture when not being sold to the yanks, our common language is English and most northern dialects seem to have more in common with Scottish ones than those in the Republic (to my ear at least). Food and drink I'll grant you though I do still know people who castigate others for drinking Bushmills due to it's Unionist heritage.
I honestly find the attitude to life of the (non ETA supporting) Spanish to be more culturally similar to that of myself and my friends than that of the average northerner I've encountered socially.
Of all the cultural similarities between NI and the ROI that I listed you took the negative or dividing aspects of each one and none of the positive aspects so do you really think your original assessment that "we have more of a cultural kinship with the Spanish.." is a reasoned one.
I would say my attitude to life is closer to that of the average German or French person than the average Irish person but culturally, i.e the language I speak, the music I listen too, the books I read, the food I eat, my sense of humour is culturally closer to that of my fellow Irish (north or south).0 -
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And I can only hope that those that would put 'decency' over sense will never be elected. Annexing a foreign territory because you desire this island to be a single nation (something which has no historical precendence) isn't decent unless the vast majority of that territory's population want to be annexed and you're offering them something better than they currently have.Shea O'Meara wrote: »We can only hope that they put decency over economics
Unification would destroy this country and would be hardest felt north of the border as duplicated and unnecessary public sector departments/agencies were discarded. Those full time workers not affected by these job losses (a minority in the North, remember) would then be forced to pay huge taxes in an attempt to balance the books with the giant surge in unemployment benefit from both the current welfare beneficiaries of the north and the newly redundant tranche of public sector workers becoming a burden on the state.
Tax revenues brought to the point of diminishing returns (with the higher tax bracket in the mid 50 percent range), we'd still be running a defecit and would have to start cutting further into the public sector, reducing it to a skeleton crew where patients in hospitals would receive even worse treatment than they currently do, teacher-pupil ratios would sky-rocket, an under-funded police service would have to try and maintain control as disident unionists launched terrorists attacks across the land.
So now, you've taken people's jobs, raised taxes, cut public services and re-ignited the troubles because you fail to have any grasp of economics and you've done all that in the name of decency? :rolleyes:0 -
Heres my solution:
1. Get a giant fusion powered circular saw the size of the london eye ferris wheel
2. Carve along the border the whole way, east to west.
3. Get a few hundred massive oil tankers and push the entire 6 counties off into the mid atlantic
4. Nuke the crap out of it.
5. Problem solved
I dont care whether we have the 32 counties or NOT as long as the senseless mindless bigotted violence never ever again graces irish (north or south) shores.0 -
From a historic point of view alone, I like to see ireland a a one united state. - but if Ireland is EVER to become a united island as one complete state - this (I suspect) will only come about when those of the unionist/minority section feel completely at ease with those they encompass as a community and country.
Acts of violence now and those doing it are only shooting themselves in the foot.
They do their long term goal no favours - just made it even longer to reach yet again.
Thats not called progression - thats called stupidity.
We are advanced creatures with possible levels of higher thinking and only by using our collective heads will the dream become reality.That is a fairly simplistic view of it.
It may be a simplistic view maybe but the bolded part above is an accurate start in my opinion.
Peace and unity must begin somewhere. It will be the people now that will make this island one, not bombs and bullets.
I'm not disagreeing with your others points by the way.
I seek peace and nothing else.0 -
It will never happen, nor do i care either.
If the north was more akin to North Korea and we were South Korea, and the North wanted to Join, Yes.. good, id rather pay taxes to feed them than some european lad.
But the reality is that the Noth is part of the UK, the majority or the north see themselves as British or would prefer to remain in the UK. We of course are making the false assumption that all catholics want to join the republic, i dont believe this is the case.0 -
Heres my solution:
1. Get a giant fusion powered circular saw the size of the london eye ferris wheel
2. Carve along the border the whole way, east to west.
3. Get a few hundred massive oil tankers and push the entire 6 counties off into the mid atlantic
4. Nuke the crap out of it.
5. Problem solved
I dont care whether we have the 32 counties or NOT as long as the senseless mindless bigotted violence never ever again graces irish (north or south) shores.
But what you call for involves "senseless mindless bigotted violence".
Take away the reasons for war and there is no war.0 -
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It will never happen, nor do i care either.
If the north was more akin to North Korea and we were South Korea, and the North wanted to Join, Yes.. good, id rather pay taxes to feed them than some european lad.
But the reality is that the Noth is part of the UK, the majority or the north see themselves as British or would prefer to remain in the UK. We of course are making the false assumption that all catholics want to join the republic, i dont believe this is the case.
But the 06 is a gerrymandered statelet that came about intentionally so that it would retain a Unionist majority.
I would hazard a guess that the majority of people in Great Britain would prefer to be shot of the 06. I would also hazard a guess that a majority of people in the Republic would prefer a United Ireland.
A "United Ireland" will come about because it is the pragmatic thing to happen. Unionists will eventually realise that they've been shat on as well, as has been previously said it will involve the setting up of a "new" country with new flags/emblems/constitution etc... The 06 will not be subsumed into the Republic but a partnership of "States" will happen instead.
It is inevitable, there is no other logical response.0 -
No. We can't even run 26 counties properly, nevermind 32. I doubt if most Irish people would be prepared to pay extra taxes to fund the cost of reunification either.0
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bobbysands81 wrote: »But the 06 is a gerrymandered statelet that came about intentionally so that it would retain a Unionist majority.
You could turn that around and say that the 26 is a gerrymandered statelet that came about intentionally so that it would retain a separatist majority (from the UK). Countries are arbitrary divisions of land.0 -
No. Way too much historical baggage and undercurrents of hatred on both sides. NI needs to be its own devolved country. Maybe if they get on with each other, they may decide to unite as one country with us, but it will be a long time from now!0
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No.0
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bobbysands81 wrote: »But the 06...
I presume your calling what is officially titled Northern Ireland "the 06" out of some aversion to giving it full status?
If thats the amount of respect your willing to give Northern Ireland, and presumably the Unionists who support it, why would they want to enter into a political union with you?0 -
Devolved government up north is the only way forward that i can see.0
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A withdrawl of British occupation yes, annex no.And I can only hope that those that would put 'decency' over sense will never be elected. Annexing a foreign territory because you desire this island to be a single nation (something which has no historical precendence) isn't decent unless the vast majority of that territory's population want to be annexed and you're offering them something better than they currently have.
Of course it would need the approval of all concerned. If they decide to be repatriated are we to say, 'hold on a minute, what do we get out of this?'
You're being a little glib with regards to my use of the word decency. And you assume to know of my grasp on economics. Simply put, if the people of the north wish to re-unite with the rest of their country, we should do all in our power to make that happen. It's the decent thing to do.Unification would destroy this country and would be hardest felt north of the border as duplicated and unnecessary public sector departments/agencies were discarded. Those full time workers not affected by these job losses (a minority in the North, remember) would then be forced to pay huge taxes in an attempt to balance the books with the giant surge in unemployment benefit from both the current welfare beneficiaries of the north and the newly redundant tranche of public sector workers becoming a burden on the state.
Tax revenues brought to the point of diminishing returns (with the higher tax bracket in the mid 50 percent range), we'd still be running a defecit and would have to start cutting further into the public sector, reducing it to a skeleton crew where patients in hospitals would receive even worse treatment than they currently do, teacher-pupil ratios would sky-rocket, an under-funded police service would have to try and maintain control as disident unionists launched terrorists attacks across the land.
So now, you've taken people's jobs, raised taxes, cut public services and re-ignited the troubles because you fail to have any grasp of economics and you've done all that in the name of decency? :rolleyes:0 -
NO0
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Appalled at yesterday's events in Newry. And it will have done nothing to help the peace process.0
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What on earth are you talking about? There has never been a single state on the island of Ireland. There are presently two states here. One of these states being subsumed by the other is therefore an annexation.Shea O'Meara wrote: »A withdrawl of British occupation yes, annex no.
They were never part of the Republic of Ireland so it's not a matter of repatriation. No matter how much you'd like to consider it so, it's still a falsehood.Of course it would need the approval of all concerned. If they decide to be repatriated are we to say, 'hold on a minute, what do we get out of this?'
And hang the consequences? If your assertion is right that you have a grasp of economics, then am I to conclude you're a masochist or just insane?You're being a little glib with regards to my use of the word decency. And you assume to know of my grasp on economics. Simply put, if the people of the north wish to re-unite with the rest of their country, we should do all in our power to make that happen. It's the decent thing to do.0 -
If you are seriously writing a thesis on this, the answer is "no-one knows", because there was no referendum on the question. What you have to do is research possibly reliable accounts about some people's views and weed out a lot of invective and real hatred for those who did terrible things at that time.crazyhorse88 wrote: »Hello everyone! I am a student from Poland writing about the Trobles in Ireland at the beginning of the 20th century (it's a part of my diploma project so it is extremely important). Sorry for the off topic but I have a question. Which counties were the most Pro - Treaty and why? I know that this is not a thread about the Civil War but I couldn't find a closer one. Please help me because there is plenty of data about the Anti - Treaty counties on the net but nothing really good when it comes to the Pro - Treaty side. THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP! If You want You can e-mail me: bartek_kozub@onet.eu
The war for independance was fought and won in the south-west and had only it's stimulus from Dublin. At this remove, it is difficult to avoid attributing a large part of the credit for the final victory in getting a treaty document agreed by the british to Michael Collins, who was a pragmatic, intelligent, courageous man of principle. His machievellian opponent, De-Valera, ( a "borrowed" surname )was a clever but unscrupulous person, driven by many demons, not least his own shame at his illegitimate birth, which drove him into the arms of the roman catholic church for guidance and succour.
De-Valera had given Collins a "wish-list" to try to wring from the brits. Collins at first refused to go and was a reluctant representative. However, serious and honest historians and others were aware that Collins wrested far more from the Brits than De-Valera could have hoped for, creating a serious long-term political problem for the self-interested De-Valera. This is the nub of the Treaty Debate, not what you will read in accounts tainted by De-Valera's years of re-writing the facts once in office.
My mother's parent's family were deeply involved in the war effort on the ground in Cork/ Limerick. We were raised on true accounts of incredible bravery, terrible suffering and great hatred for the traitors who betrayed us all when they betrayed Collins.
The Anti-Treaty side were misled and the people responsible carry the blame for that most terrible of crimes, causing a civil war.0 -
trapsagenius wrote: »Lets keep it civil here.Just as a matter of interest, who here is in favour of a united Ireland?I'm talking long term(i.e in 20/25 years or more)not in the next year or so.
I would describe myself as a republican but I despise the dissidents(criminals is a better word) as much as the next man.I also think a united Ireland should only come about with majority consent in NI.
I would not be in favour of a so called united Ireland. As a true republican, I want the Republic of Ireland, my country to stay as it is and dont want or see the point of another country such as Northern Ireland joining us.
I don't understand why anyone in the Republic would want change, we have a brillant country, I don't want it to change. My traditions and culture come from my country, I don't have any link to NI.0 -
Sorry to deflate an obviously sincere position, but this is not a true republic.sparkling sea wrote: »I would not be in favour of a so called united Ireland. As a true republican, I want the Republic of Ireland, my country to stay as it is and dont want or see the point of another country such as Northern Ireland joining us.
I don't understand why anyone in the Republic would want change, we have a brillant country, I don't want it to change. My traditions and culture come from my country, I don't have any link to NI.
Stop ! I am certainly not in agreement with those cretins from SF/IRA whose little green book decries us as the "Free State"
I merely point out that we are a mix between a theocracy and other hybrids, favouring a political wealthy caste who control the strings of power. Proof? Read against the tide by Dr. Noel Browne and research other couragous writers on church-state collusion.
Our sectarian constitution ( special position of RC Church etc. ) was ghost-written for de Valera by Archbishop John McQuaide. That omni-powerful bullying prelate, is now often reported as having been accused ( I do not say further ) by said Noel Browne of being a violent paedofile who raped the son of a publican in dublin, who was later treated by browne as a GP.
All social legislation goes to the bishops for comment and approval before being passed.
The banks, developers and politicians who obtained enormous loans to speculate on property deals are now being bailed out by poor tax-payers.
Do the courts treat people differently depending on status and connections?
Republican ideals, are enshrined in the three values of French republicanism, Liberty, Equality, Fraternity.
Wolfe Tone was a true republican. What would he say about the current political, social and economic policies and values of Saerstat Eireann??0 -
If you are seriously writing a thesis on this, the answer is "no-one knows", because there was no referendum on the question. What you have to do is research possibly reliable accounts about some people's views and weed out a lot of invective and real hatred for those who did terrible things at that time.
The war for independance was fought and won in the south-west and had only it's stimulus from Dublin. At this remove, it is difficult to avoid attributing a large part of the credit for the final victory in getting a treaty document agreed by the british to Michael Collins, who was a pragmatic, intelligent, courageous man of principle. His machievellian opponent, De-Valera, ( a "borrowed" surname )was a clever but unscrupulous person, driven by many demons, not least his own shame at his illegitimate birth, which drove him into the arms of the roman catholic church for guidance and succour.
De-Valera had given Collins a "wish-list" to try to wring from the brits. Collins at first refused to go and was a reluctant representative. However, serious and honest historians and others were aware that Collins wrested far more from the Brits than De-Valera could have hoped for, creating a serious long-term political problem for the self-interested De-Valera. This is the nub of the Treaty Debate, not what you will read in accounts tainted by De-Valera's years of re-writing the facts once in office.
My mother's parent's family were deeply involved in the war effort on the ground in Cork/ Limerick. We were raised on true accounts of incredible bravery, terrible suffering and great hatred for the traitors who betrayed us all when they betrayed Collins.
The Anti-Treaty side were misled and the people responsible carry the blame for that most terrible of crimes, causing a civil war.
I hate to get sidetracked here but this is one of the most biased pieces of nonsense I've heard in a long time.The bit in a bold is complete rubbish-"shame at his illegitimate birth", "a borrowed surname", what in gods name is this-anti-Dev propaganda?You should point out that this is your own take on the Devs situation and many others would have a completely different view.Also describing one of the greatest statesman Ireland has ever seen as "self interested" is BS.
I have no doubt Collins was a great man but he was not a man without sin.He was completely ruthless and while he did well at the Treaty, part of the opposition to it was that from signing the treaty Collins had committed treason as he had sworn an oath to the republic and was now willing to swear an oath to the British king.In the 21st century it is hard to see what the fuss is about, but in 1920s Ireland , when nationalist sentiment in the country was at fever pitch, it is easy to understand how young men who had watched their friends and family die for a republic could oppose the Treaty.Accusing Dev of rewriting the facts is also utter nonsense-didn't Dev himself accept that Collins greatness would be recorded at his own expense?
I also take issue with you blaming the anti-treaty side for the whole civil war-the ruthlessness and sometimes even sadism among the Free state forces is often strengthened republicans resolve to fight on even when the war seemed lost.Killing 4 innocent prisoners is a war crime, but interestingly there's no mention of that in your post.I accept there were wrongs done on both sides, so the issue is not black and white as you try to paint it.sparkling sea wrote: »I would not be in favour of a so called united Ireland. As a true republican, I want the Republic of Ireland, my country to stay as it is and dont want or see the point of another country such as Northern Ireland joining us.
I don't understand why anyone in the Republic would want change, we have a brillant country, I don't want it to change. My traditions and culture come from my country, I don't have any link to NI.
Is that what you'd define as a "true" republic-only 26 counties?Sorry to deflate an obviously sincere position, but this is not a true republic.
Stop ! I am certainly not in agreement with those cretins from SF/IRA whose little green book decries us as the "Free State"
I merely point out that we are a mix between a theocracy and other hybrids, favouring a political wealthy caste who control the strings of power. Proof? Read against the tide by Dr. Noel Browne and research other couragous writers on church-state collusion.
Our sectarian constitution ( special position of RC Church etc. ) was ghost-written for de Valera by Archbishop John McQuaide. That omni-powerful bullying prelate, is now often reported as having been accused ( I do not say further ) by said Noel Browne of being a violent paedofile who raped the son of a publican in dublin, who was later treated by browne as a GP.
All social legislation goes to the bishops for comment and approval before being passed.
The banks, developers and politicians who obtained enormous loans to speculate on property deals are now being bailed out by poor tax-payers.
Do the courts treat people differently depending on status and connections?
Republican ideals, are enshrined in the three values of French republicanism, Liberty, Equality, Fraternity.
Wolfe Tone was a true republican. What would he say about the current political, social and economic policies and values of Saerstat Eireann??
That accusation from Browne against Mcquaid was almost certainly complete bollix by the way.Have you actually read it?It was in the end of the biography on Mcquaid and it was completely dubious.Lets not forget that Browne and Mcquaid despised each other.While I am definitely not a fan of Mcquaid, you should not be slandering someone with one of the worst accusations you can throw at them, especially when it most likely isn't true.
And while you rightfully criticise Dev for giving a "special place" to the Church in the constitution, surely you accept what a truly magnificent piece of work the constitution was on whole?0 -
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trapsagenius wrote: »Is that what you'd define as a "true" republic-only 26 counties?
The Republic of Ireland has 26 counties. Any more and wouldn't be the Republic of Ireland that I know and love - it would be something else. There would need to be be a fairly drastic reason to convince me that it needs to be changed. Historical reasons would not go anyway to convincing to me.
Long live the Republic.
Irlandese - I have no interest in in living in the past, although I fully appreciate it is necessary to research and dicuss it for historical and politcal accuracy. Its an emotive issue for some people but it happened many moons ago - I wasn't there I can't really comment with any degree of accuracy.
Don't no or if I am honest particularly care what Wolfe Tone would think or say.
The Republic surely following the principles laid down in Bunreacht na hEireann is more of a Rawlsian Egalitarian model but we have added our own ingredients such as corruption, narcissism, etc.
But still its my Republic with its 26 counties and thats how I hope its stays.
Why anyone would want to change it is beyond me.0 -
I have never understood this notion that we can somehow persuade the Unionists that they should throw their lot in with a united Ireland. As a challenge it would be about on a par in terms of difficulty with persuading folk that we would all fair better back under British rule. And in both cases, any pragmatic arguments in favor of a change wouldn’t even get a hearing. We can outbreed them, and hence play the democracy card. But we won’t convince them.
And can any of the pro UI folk give me a good argument (or even a bad one!) for pushing for unification? I don’t mean some vague misty eyed notion about building a new nation based on equality, justice, blah, blah. Can you identify any group, or even individual, who on the whole, will fare better in a UI than they do now?0 -
What on earth are you talking about? There has never been a single state on the island of Ireland. There are presently two states here. One of these states being subsumed by the other is therefore an annexation.
They were never part of the Republic of Ireland so it's not a matter of repatriation. No matter how much you'd like to consider it so, it's still a falsehood.
The Republic would cease to exist and the full complete island would become a country. I never said they'd join back with the republic, I said join back with rest of their country. This would not be an annex of any sort.
And hang the consequences? If your assertion is right that you have a grasp of economics, then am I to conclude you're a masochist or just insane?
Again you believe to know my knowledge of economics and take my previously pointing that out as a declaration claiming such knowledge.
If you don't wish to be part of a united Ireland, (the term itself refers to a joining of a divided Ireland, not two states with nothing in common other than geography), fine. There is no hanging of consequences, no masochistic insanity, (I've never voted Fianna Fail). My priorities are different, we seem to disagree and I would be willing to make sacrifices to help this happen. If it's easy and beneficial in some way, you too may come on board, fair play.0 -
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If one really wants a 32 county republic they could always lobby to have -say the six largest counties in the Republic split in two :pac:I have never understood this notion that we can somehow persuade the Unionists that they should throw their lot in with a united Ireland.
Surely if one could persuade Unionists they would be better off in a UI then they would no longer be "Unionists" ?
And could Unionists not just as easily attempt to persuade Nationalists that they would be better off remaining in the United Kingdom ?0
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