Who, on this forum, is in favour of a 32 county Republic?

trapsagenius

Lets keep it civil here.Just as a matter of interest, who here is in favour of a united Ireland?I'm talking long term(i.e in 20/25 years or more)not in the next year or so.

I would describe myself as a republican but I despise the dissidents(criminals is a better word) as much as the next man.I also think a united Ireland should only come about with majority consent in NI.

Riddle101

I would love to have a United Ireland, but I'd first like us to fix our own problems first before considering unity, I wouldn't want to rush into anything we're not prepared to accept. I'd also like to know if we can indeed support a United Ireland, for instance how much would it effect us as a whole and could it lead to worse things in the future.

Liam Byrne

+1 to both of the above.

It's not up to us to lay claim to another "territory" - and in fact, we voted to relinquish such a claim.

I mean, I'd like if we owned Iraq and could have the oil reserves, but that's not my right either.

trapsagenius

Riddle101 wrote: »

I would love to have a United Ireland, but I'd first like us to fix our own problems first before considering unity, I wouldn't want to rush into anything we're not prepared to accept. I'd also like to know if we can indeed support a United Ireland, for instance how much would it effect us as a whole and could it lead to worse things in the future.

I assume from "worse things" you are referring to possible opposition from unionists...

So, next question-if a united Ireland came about, would there be a lot of opposition from unionists and how militant would that opposition be?

syklops

In our current state would they take us?

trapsagenius

syklops wrote: »

In our current state would they take us?

Read my first post.I said in 20/25 years or more.

syklops

trapsagenius wrote: »

Read my first post.I said in 20/25 years or more.

Your assuming things will be better in 20/25 years time? They werent terrific 20/25 years ago/

trapsagenius

syklops wrote: »

Your assuming things will be better in 20/25 years time? They werent terrific 20/25 years ago/

Yes, I am making that assumption.And you talk about things not being so good 20/25 years ago-for much of the 1990s and the 2000s they were more than "terrific" but you must have forgotten that...

amacachi

Barring massive changes in the psyche of a large minority in the North, if we became one nation/NI was made independent from the UK, I'd be booking to earliest ticket out of here I could.

trapsagenius

amacachi wrote: »

Barring massive changes in the psyche of a large minority in the North, if we became one nation/NI was made independent from the UK, I'd be booking to earliest ticket out of here I could.

Why so?You think the unionists would cause too much trouble?

crazyhorse88

Hello everyone! I am a student from Poland writing about the Trobles in Ireland at the beginning of the 20th century (it's a part of my diploma project so it is extremely important). Sorry for the off topic but I have a question. Which counties were the most Pro - Treaty and why? I know that this is not a thread about the Civil War but I couldn't find a closer one. Please help me because there is plenty of data about the Anti - Treaty counties on the net but nothing really good when it comes to the Pro - Treaty side. THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP! If You want You can e-mail me: bartek_kozub@onet.eu

bobbysands81

Of course I'm in favour of it.

Ireland belongs to it's people, no matter their creed or colour.

Having two administrations on such a small island makes no sense.

A united Ireland won't be about the 06 being subsumed into the Republic, everything will be up for grabs... flags, anthems, joining the commonwealth(sic) etc...

trapsagenius

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Of course I'm in favour of it.

Ireland belongs to it's people, no matter their creed or colour.

Having two administrations on such a small island makes no sense.

A united Ireland won't be about the 06 being subsumed into the Republic, everything will be up for grabs... flags, anthems, joining the commonwealth(sic) etc...

I have to say, given your username is Bobbysands81, I'm surprised you're even contemplating the commonwealth (That's an observation btw, not a criticism!).

leincar

Up to two years ago I would have said no as I have a deep mistrust of Republicans either here or the other version in the states.

However, the Twenty Six counties is in a mess economically and politically and I wonder if we had a United Ireland, where the Unionist community would make up approximately 20% of the population and therefore 20% of the Dail maybe we would see a political change for the better.

So for a different reason then the normal Republican agenda maybe a United Ireland might be a good idea.

syklops

trapsagenius wrote: »

Yes, I am making that assumption.And you talk about things not being so good 20/25 years ago-for much of the 1990s and the 2000s they were more than "terrific" but you must have forgotten that...

The 2000s were not 20 years ago. They were 1-9 years ago. 25 years ago it was 1985. Things were not terrific in 1985.

I think this back-and-forth has gone on long enough. To answer your question I would absolutely be in favour of 32 counties. However I can't see it happening in our life time. By 'our' life time I am assuming your in roughly the same age group as me which is late twenties. So many lives have ended to get into the situation we are in now which is a power sharing government.

I would like to see it, but I would not push for it, as I have to ask my self, "At what cost?".

Joey the lips

A pole would have been nice. I do caution you on the majority consent rule... This was agree by all concerened and when it actually looking like happening the posts where changed...again by the unionist parties..... They wanted a majority of unionist consent.

Sleepy

Actively against the notion.

The north has been too dependent on an even more bloated public sector than we have for decades, there's more violent thugs on both sides of the fence than I'd care to have as countrymen and finally just because I couldn't stand to see all the armchair terrorists in the republic so happy.

Koloman

If I was living in Northern Ireland then I would have all the benefits of being in the UK like the NHS, cheaper prices, better governance etc...

I would also be allowed to proclaim my Irishness under the Good Friday agreement so the question should be "Why would you want a United Ireland?"

A unified island is probably out of the question for the next 50 years minimum, if ever.

Maybe we should have a 32 county Northern Ireland? We'd be all better off and no amount of misty eyed dreams could deny that fact.

syklops

crazyhorse88 wrote: »

Hello everyone! I am a student from Poland writing about the Trobles in Ireland at the beginning of the 20th century (it's a part of my diploma project so it is extremely important). Sorry for the off topic but I have a question. Which counties were the most Pro - Treaty and why? I know that this is not a thread about the Civil War but I couldn't find a closer one. Please help me because there is plenty of data about the Anti - Treaty counties on the net but nothing really good when it comes to the Pro - Treaty side. THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP! If You want You can e-mail me: bartek_kozub@onet.eu

Czesc,

I would strongly suggest you create your own thread on this issue. I should point out that all you will get is discussion on the issue, not facts. Hardly, the basis on which to form a college project.

For facts consult google, history textbooks, and dare I say it historical statistics. If you want peoples opinions, come here. Either way, dont hijack another persons thread.

Dobranoc.

trapsagenius

Sleepy wrote: »

Actively against the notion.

The north has been too dependent on an even more bloated public sector than we have for decades, there's more violent thugs on both sides of the fence than I'd care to have as countrymen and finally just because I couldn't stand to see all the armchair terrorists in the republic so happy.

The public sector problem could be remedies, there's violent thugs everywhere and isn't "armchair terrorist" a bit of a contradiction?

kev9100

Ina perfect world, I would a love a United Ireland. However, I think the risks in stirring up the same old problems that have plaged Ireland for centuries are just too great.

Sleepy

trapsagenius wrote: »

The public sector problem could be remedies, there's violent thugs everywhere and isn't "armchair terrorist" a bit of a contradiction?

We can't remedy our own public sector so let's not even consider taking on someone else's.

We've too many violent scumbags of our own without taking in more from families that have been engaged in generations of blood feuds and criminality.

And 'armchair terrorist' isn't exactly a new term - it's perfect description for the Wolfe Tones loving, Celtic Shirt wearing, Sinn Fein voting imbeciles that consider the murder of innocents acceptable and have absolutely no understanding of why the economic policies put forward by the party they vote for would leave them destitute.

trapsagenius

Sleepy wrote: »

We can't remedy our own public sector so let's not even consider taking on someone else's.

We've too many violent scumbags of our own without taking in more from families that have been engaged in generations of blood feuds and criminality.

And 'armchair terrorist' isn't exactly a new term - it's perfect description for the Wolfe Tones loving, Celtic Shirt wearing, Sinn Fein voting imbeciles that consider the murder of innocents acceptable and have absolutely no understanding of why the economic policies put forward by the party they vote for would leave them destitute.

Good to see you're not prone to stereotyping:rolleyes:.

Anyway, we're getting there with out own Public Sector-the last budget was a step in the right direction.And anyway, I said in 20/25 years time.

You talk about "taking in" more "scumbags"-what about the peaceful nationalists who want to be part of the Republic?And anyway, i don't think a fear of taking in what you deem to be scumbags a valid reason for opposing a 32 county republic.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

You talk about "taking in" more "scumbags"-what about the peaceful nationalists who want to be part of the Republic?And anyway, i don't think a fear of taking in what you deem to be scumbags a valid reason for opposing a 32 county republic.

I didn't see anything in the post you're referring to that refutes the existence of both decent, peaceful nationalists and decent, peaceful unionists.

But there's no denying that we would also be taking in the violent, self-interested, violent scum as well.

Let's put it this way.....if you were thinking of adopting a family, would you think twice if one or two of them were violent criminal thugs ?

amacachi

trapsagenius wrote: »

Why so?You think the unionists would cause too much trouble?

Yes. It would be an absolute disaster.

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I didn't see anything in the post you're referring to that refutes the existence of both decent, peaceful nationalists and decent, peaceful unionists.

But there's no denying that we would also be taking in the violent, self-interested, violent scum as well.

Let's put it this way.....if you were thinking of adopting a family, would you think twice if one or two of them were violent criminal thugs ?

I know the post doesn't refute it but the post only seems to deal with "scumbags" if there was an integration of NI-that's why I'm asking about what his views on peaceful nationalists are.

As for the adoption question-well if there was 10 normal people in the family for every one thug then I probably would take them in-especially if i had historical bonds of kinship.And if there was already a few thugs in my own family it wouldn't really matter to me.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

And if they're was already a few thugs in my own family it wouldn't really matter to me.

I can see and appreciate what you're getting at, but if your resources and time were already being taken up trying to stop those from - shall we say (for the sake of the analogy) - "misbehaving", then it might be a step too far.

Particularly if some of those were likely to misbehave even more because they liked their existing family and didn't want to be adopted.

mike65

To quote someone or other when asked about German unification - "I like Germany so much, I'm glad there are two of them" If it happens it'll be cos a strong majority on both sides of the border want it and that won't be today or tomorrow. Right now NI means a cheap day out for the ROIs hard pressed shoppers so keep it has it is.

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I can see and appreciate what you're getting at, but if your resources and time were already being taken up trying to stop those from - shall we say (for the sake of the analogy) - "misbehaving", then it might be a step too far.

Particularly if some of those were likely to misbehave even more because they liked their existing family and didn't want to be adopted.

Ok, we have to stop this analogy!:P

Anyway, I suppose you're right and it would depend on how hostile the unionists are to be integrated before we can have a 32 county republic.That said, I think in a fair world, it should be up to the majority in NI, not what would be the vocal minority.

SLUSK

Why would anyone in ROI want a united Ireland? Germany is still suffering financially from reuniting east and west Germany. The old West Germany would have been much more prosperous today if they did not reunite with East Germany.

Northern Ireland would just be a financial burden which the ROI cannot afford.

goose2005

crazyhorse88 wrote: »

Hello everyone! I am a student from Poland writing about the Trobles in Ireland at the beginning of the 20th century (it's a part of my diploma project so it is extremely important). Sorry for the off topic but I have a question. Which counties were the most Pro - Treaty and why? I know that this is not a thread about the Civil War but I couldn't find a closer one. Please help me because there is plenty of data about the Anti - Treaty counties on the net but nothing really good when it comes to the Pro - Treaty side. THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP! If You want You can e-mail me: bartek_kozub@onet.eu

Here's a list of which TDs voted yes/no: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Treaty_D%C3%A1il_vote

m@cc@

Sleepy wrote: »

Actively against the notion.

The north has been too dependent on an even more bloated public sector than we have for decades, there's more violent thugs on both sides of the fence than I'd care to have as countrymen and finally just because I couldn't stand to see all the armchair terrorists in the republic so happy.

What an utterly ignorant post! Want to hazard a guess at why the public sector is the main source of jobs? Might it have something to do with a 30-year bombing campaign making NI look as attractive for investment as Damn Edna without make-up. It's still bloated, but give it time and it'll be back on it's feet. Furthermore, as a offshore state of the UK, of course it's going to be more difficult to manage. Unification would solve a lot of these problems.

Plus you're living in dreamland if you think there are more scumbags in Belfast than in Dublin or Limerick. Only difference is that in the North, they plant a flag on it.


To answer the OP's question, I am in favour of it but only when the will of both countries is there (I believe that will come).

Sea Sharp

No, I don't want a 32 county Ireland.
I wouldn't wish our government on anybody else.
I hope that we will be reunited by means of a United States of Europe.

I can't see any real benefit to a United Ireland. Vague, romantic, republican dreams don't agree with practicality or reality.

seanybiker

Government cant run 26 counties properly. Cant see how having another 6 on top of it being any help at all to be honest.

Zambia

I would love to see the island of Ireland united but the price is too high.

Joey the lips

SLUSK wrote: »

Why would anyone in ROI want a united Ireland? Germany is still suffering financially from reuniting east and west Germany. The old West Germany would have been much more prosperous today if they did not reunite with East Germany.

Northern Ireland would just be a financial burden which the ROI cannot afford.

ehhh.... the same reason that germany wanted unification...

SLUSK

Joey the lips wrote: »

ehhh.... the same reason that germany wanted unification...

There are many people both from the east and from the west who are not very happy about the unification.

Joey the lips

SLUSK wrote: »

There are many people both from the east and from the west who are not very happy about the unification.

How many 100, 150, 200 yes these are all members of the nationalist front i reckon. This is rubbish. or have you actual stats.

There is people in the west that did not want east germanys debt, there is people in the east that did not want to loose there soviet previllages.

I am sure it will be the same with ireland

however there is an over whelming majority as television pictures showed that supported east and west unification and i cannot see the political elite being any different with ireland.

If it happened in the morning I forcast Eamonn Gilmore saying he was instramental, enda kenny would have to think about it and Brian Cowen well he held secret talks.

When it all boils down anyone who does not want a united ireland is in the minority. A pole would have proved this.

Blazer

I couldn't give a rat's arse whether we've 26 or 32 counties.
To me it is meaningless..I'd much rather people realize the world over that we should all be united rather than killing each other but the chances of that happening are practically nil.
At the end of the day if people cared less about their land boundaries we (human race) might actually get off our asses and do some proper good in the world.

Sleepy

m@cc@ wrote: »

What an utterly ignorant post! Want to hazard a guess at why the public sector is the main source of jobs? Might it have something to do with a 30-year bombing campaign making NI look as attractive for investment as Damn Edna without make-up. It's still bloated, but give it time and it'll be back on it's feet. Furthermore, as a offshore state of the UK, of course it's going to be more difficult to manage. Unification would solve a lot of these problems.

And exactly what am I ignorant of?

You admit the public sector up there is hugely bloated. Unification would result in one of two things:

Keeping the bloated public sector and ignoring any overlaps with our own costing billions a year.

or

Culling most of the public sector in NI leading to mass unemployment.

Both options bring a fairly heavy likelihood of Ireland having to default on it's debts.

Just this morning we had another car bombing in Northern Ireland, do you think we wouldn't have "dissident unionists" in a united Ireland?

Finally, I don't feel any more of a 'cultural kinship' with northerners than I do with the English. To be quite honest, I feel we have more of a cultural kinship with the Spanish.

I'm not ignorant of the situation in the north at all m@cc@, I'm just not as blinded by ex-pat romanticism as you are.

bobbysands81

trapsagenius wrote: »

I have to say, given your username is Bobbysands81, I'm surprised you're even contemplating the commonwealth (That's an observation btw, not a criticism!).

I'm not. It would mean subservience to a sectarian, outdated, unelected incestuous monarchy - how could anyone deem that a step forward?

I would be in favour of a "Council of the Isles" or some such thing where closer ties could be established between ourselves and Great Britain. We need to be practical and realise that GB is our biggest trading partner, we need a relationship based on friendship not the one we currently have whereby we play the battered wife always seeking approval from the abusive husband.

EDIT:

This post backs my assertion up nicely...

Koloman wrote: »

If I was living in Northern Ireland then I would have all the benefits of being in the UK like the NHS, cheaper prices, better governance etc...

I would also be allowed to proclaim my Irishness under the Good Friday agreement so the question should be "Why would you want a United Ireland?"

A unified island is probably out of the question for the next 50 years minimum, if ever.

Maybe we should have a 32 county Northern Ireland? We'd be all better off and no amount of misty eyed dreams could deny that fact.

bobbysands81

Sleepy wrote: »

We can't remedy our own public sector so let's not even consider taking on someone else's.

We've too many violent scumbags of our own without taking in more from families that have been engaged in generations of blood feuds and criminality.

And 'armchair terrorist' isn't exactly a new term - it's perfect description for the Wolfe Tones loving, Celtic Shirt wearing, Sinn Fein voting imbeciles that consider the murder of innocents acceptable and have absolutely no understanding of why the economic policies put forward by the party they vote for would leave them destitute.

But a United Ireland would remove the biggest gangsters and murderers from the equation.

The reason the public sector up there is so bloated is because of Unionism and attempts to appease it by "jobs for the boys".

gandalf

Theoretically yes I am of course in favour of a 32 county Ireland.

Practically at the moment we are not ready on either side. The vast majority will have to want to become united and its going to take at least several more generations before we come close to that situation.

stakey

So if a "United Ireland" came about based on the wishes of the majority, I assume the North can opt out again and unite with the UK if the majority swings in the Unionist favour again?

sirromo

I would love to see a united Ireland. I couldn't bear the thought of my country being permanently partitioned.

Dannyboy83

No way, we have enough crap to pay for, without another 1.5million dolites to shoulder.
We should be sending our dolites packing, not annexing foreign ones.

Government spending in the North is something like 67% of GDP - thats higher than Cuba FFS!

Scary thing is that it may happen.
UK is near bankrupt, Tory win on the cards, massive public sector layoffs, good chance for Salmond/SNP to pull off Scottish independence.

Who knows where that may lead.........more taxes for yours truly probably.
The incentive for the middle class to stay here diminishes by the day.

Deedsie

In a perfect world I would welcome it. I actually think the solution is joint rule, the UK and Ireland both having an influence. It would bring Northern nationalist under the government of the country they wish to associate with, would stop the waste of money that is stormont. I think its very easy to say from an ROI point of view that why would we want to reunite, financial burden, social division etc.

But there are 700,000 people in the North who recognise themselves as Irish as the rest of us. Which they are. I would like to see our government offer more support to these people and all the people of the North.

maggy_thatcher

The only way I could see a "United Ireland" work is the formation of a new country altogether -- neither the current 26-county republic, nor the 6-county colony could absorb the other. This new country would have to inherit the national debts of ROI (plus potentially approx. 1/28th the national debt of the UK), and have a newly drafted constitution directly voted with a 66% supermajority of all citizens of the island.

Would I vote yes? To me, it would mainly depend on how the constitution was written.

m@cc@

Sleepy wrote: »

And exactly what am I ignorant of?

You admit the public sector up there is hugely bloated. Unification would result in one of two things:

Keeping the bloated public sector and ignoring any overlaps with our own costing billions a year.

or

Culling most of the public sector in NI leading to mass unemployment.

Both options bring a fairly heavy likelihood of Ireland having to default on it's debts.

Just this morning we had another car bombing in Northern Ireland, do you think we wouldn't have "dissident unionists" in a united Ireland?

Finally, I don't feel any more of a 'cultural kinship' with northerners than I do with the English. To be quite honest, I feel we have more of a cultural kinship with the Spanish.

I'm not ignorant of the situation in the north at all m@cc@, I'm just not as blinded by ex-pat romanticism as you are.

Choose what you want to read, eh? As I already stated, the private sector will improve and hopefully it will lead to less reliance on the public sector. But the public sector is bloated in most European countries, they are run on bureaucracy and waste.

Of course there will be dissent unionists and they will have to be addressed before any unification. It cannot happen without the will of both countries and it will be a long-term plan. But I don't see either issue that you've mentioned as anything like terminal.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Government spending in the North is something like 67% of GDP - thats higher than Cuba FFS!

A large proportion of that would be on defence. You'd hope that as time goes on, the need for that spending will decrease (granted, recent events don't help). I'd hazard a guess that it's still a lot less than it was 20 years ago.

bobbysands81

stakey wrote: »

So if a "United Ireland" came about based on the wishes of the majority, I assume the North can opt out again and unite with the UK if the majority swings in the Unionist favour again?

Isn't that what democracy is???

If a majority of people on the island of Ireland want "X" then "X" happens.

When there's an artificially created gerrymandered statelet then things are different though. You have to remember that the 06 was created in an effort to falsely create a Unionist majority - that majority seems to be eroding over time. Whether that continues and whether the majority want to re-unite with the rest of the Republic remains to be seen though...

bobbysands81

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

The only way I could see a "United Ireland" work is the formation of a new country altogether -- neither the current 26-county republic, nor the 6-county colony could absorb the other. This new country would have to inherit the national debts of ROI (plus potentially approx. 1/28th the national debt of the UK), and have a newly drafted constitution directly voted with a 66% supermajority of all citizens of the island.

Would I vote yes? To me, it would mainly depend on how the constitution was written.

I disagree with the 66% - we live in a democracy. 50%+1 vote is all that's needed for something to carry.

1/28th of the debt of Britain? Not a hope...