Gender, going to jail, male victims, etc.: the Caroline Brennan case, etc.

CDfm

This deserves a thread of its own

There is something very wrong when a foreign Professor can come in and train social workers in this ideology and they in turn counsel women and tell womens groups that its right to kill.

Not only that but can go ahead and brag about it in the press.

The law of the land on reasonable force states there is a duty to retreat in these circumstances.

It is wrong and totally wrong that she is allowed to teach in an Irish University

We laugh at gender policies at US Colleges but what type of baggage is she bringing with her.

She needs to go and go now.


http://www.vanguard.edu/faculty/eleonard/

Is the course she is teaching being vetted

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

This deserves a thread of its own

There is something very wrong when a foreign Professor can come in and train social workers in this ideology and they in turn counsel women and tell womens groups that its right to kill.

Not only that but can go ahead and brag about it in the press.

The law of the land on reasonable force states there is a duty to retreat in these circumstances.

It is wrong and totally wrong that she is allowed to teach in an Irish University

We laugh at gender policies at US Colleges but what type of baggage is she bringing with her.

She needs to go and go now.


http://www.vanguard.edu/faculty/eleonard/

Is the course she is teaching being vetted

Good to hear I'm not the only one annoyed at her.

What do you mean by "vetted"?

CDfm

Its weird on lots of levels.

I mean she is teaching social workers and presumably future lawyers and others that its ok to kill in anger and how it can be justified.

Brenda Powers column that she replied to concerned mandatory jail sentences when someone is killed like this.She(brenda Power) is normally very extreme and pro-feminist so if she has concerns ,then it probably is a good idea to listen to them.

So yes I am concerned that social workers and others would be trained by her and come away with the idea that it is somehow right and correct to murder. So if she is teaching a course of course its content should be vetted. Its too serious. It must be out of control if Brenda Power says it is.

So if I look at the morals and ethics of it applied in other situations.

Let me see - honour killing is wrong no matter the provocation. I can see some people using warped logic to justify it.Am I to excuse honour killing and assisted suicide too.

Maybe its me, but I get the feeling that some of the newspaper crime reports are so samey that killers get coached in how to give evidence.What was the exception has now become the rule.

Do we to tell guys its ok to kill abusive wives. No we dont -we tell them to follow the legal route and keep control and jail them if they loose control.

We know from many international studies that women are as violent as men and the single sex studies she puts forward ignore that.Webalso know that females initiate violence in a lot of cases and mutual violence is common. So if we are training social workers, police.and lawyers we need to keep them up to date with the research so they can spot it and act.

So when I say vetted I mean that courses are thought with reference to the law and proper dual gender research and not an extreme gender feminist view. Its far too serious -someone could get killed.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

Its weird on lots of levels.

I mean she is teaching social workers and presumably future lawyers and others that its ok to kill in anger and how it can be justified.

Brenda Powers column that she replied to concerned mandatory jail sentences when someone is killed like this.She(brenda Power) is normally very extreme and pro-feminist so if she has concerns ,then it probably is a good idea to listen to them.

So yes I am concerned that social workers and others would be trained by her and come away with the idea that it is somehow right and correct to murder. So if she is teaching a course of course its content should be vetted. Its too serious. It must be out of control if Brenda Power says it is.

So if I look at the morals and ethics of it applied in other situations.

Let me see - honour killing is wrong no matter the provocation. I can see some people using warped logic to justify it.Am I to excuse honour killing and assisted suicide too.

Maybe its me, but I get the feeling that some of the newspaper crime reports are so samey that killers get coached in how to give evidence.What was the exception has now become the rule.

Do we to tell guys its ok to kill abusive wives. No we dont -we tell them to follow the legal route and keep control and jail them if they loose control.

We know from many international studies that women are as violent as men and the single sex studies she puts forward ignore that.Webalso know that females initiate violence in a lot of cases and mutual violence is common. So if we are training social workers, police.and lawyers we need to keep them up to date with the research so they can spot it and act.

So when I say vetted I mean that courses are thought with reference to the law and proper dual gender research and not an extreme gender feminist view. Its far too serious -someone could get killed.

Ok, thanks.

Are there precedents for vetting what lecturers lecture on, especially in controversial areas? For example, you have to show the head of the department? I studied maths - no vetting for controversial matter needed there!

CDfm

iptba wrote: »

Ok, thanks.

Are there precedents for vetting what lecturers lecture on, especially in controversial areas? For example, you have to show the head of the department? I studied maths - no vetting for controversial matter needed there!

Maybe we should. We would vet a medical professor or a science professor. We retrain doctors whose skills are dated -so social workers should also be on the list.

If I have a social worker being paid by the state and a social worker trainer -I want to know that how they are being trained is correct and consistant and not makey upey.

They use their training to assess people at risk etc so need proper training and facts rather than biased training.

Its not controversial its fact-in maths one side of a simoltaneous equation is useles without the other,the information is there alright it just looks like she is not teaching it.

iptba

2 letter writers who appear to want women to be treated differently (the second one in particular). On the same day, the paper covered the appalling conditions in the male prison which are much worse than what is in the female prison http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0426/1224269092789.html:

Resignation of prison governor
• Madam, – If ever we needed proof that Ireland is, and always has been, a dysfunctional authoritarian patriarchy, then today’s article about the resignation of the governor of the women’s prison is surely it (Front page, April 26th). What kind of society imprisons women for failing to make credit union loan repayments while rewarding the men who have brought this country to their knees? – Yours, etc,
<name and address>

Madam, – I was saddened to hear of the resignation of Kathleen McMahon as governor of the Dóchas Centre in Dublin’s Mountjoy Prison and the worrying concerns she has brought to light.

I have been studying in London for the past six months and one of my courses, concerned with prisons, has shown statistical evidence from the UK that should give pause to managers intent on dismantling a system with a strong rehabilitative focus.

The Corsten Report, an extensive study of women’s prisons in the UK, showed the majority of women were serving short-term sentences for minor offences, however nearly two-thirds were re-convicted within two years. The majority were poor, one-fifth were foreign nationals, two-thirds had a drug problem, two-thirds had mental health issues and a third had suffered sexual abuse.

Out of the women who had dependent children when sentenced, only 5 per cent of those children stayed in the family home. While male prisoners with children more often have a partner to hold the home together, the same is not the case for a majority of women. Prison is a deeply destabilising place, but particularly so for women. If the approach and culture of the Dóchas Centre is changed from a rehabilitative to a punitive system, the possibility for many extremely vulnerable women to make a new start and not re-offend will be seriously diminished. It seems there may already have been a great loss in the resignation of Ms McMahon. – Yours, etc,
<name and address>.

This seems to merge a lot of issues together. If people want to not send people who commit minor offences to prison, that is fair enough but why only say this about women. As I recall, it was even conceded on this thread that women were less likely to be sent to jail for minor offences. It's easy to get confused by the figures - a bigger percentage of women in prison might be in there for minor offences but that's not the same as the total number of women in for "minor offences" being more than the figure for men (because the
total number of men in jail is much bigger).

CDfm

Its weird when you look at it that somehow punishments for men and women in the same institution conditions are so different.

Even the name The Dochas Centre sounds like a spiritual retreat -some kind of convent.

My head hurts when I try to get my head around the logic and theory of justice for women. Its very like the criminals are writting the rules on how they are held and gullable academics are acting on it.

On the resignation letter -the someone could get hurt tone -well its a prison with dangerous inmates.

I mean its a bit of a laugh isn't it that these ideas are bought into by otherwise intelligent people.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

Its weird when you look at it that somehow punishments for men and women in the same institution conditions are so different.

Even the name The Dochas Centre sounds like a spiritual retreat -some kind of convent.

My head hurts when I try to get my head around the logic and theory of justice for women. Its very like the criminals are writting the rules on how they are held and gullable academics are acting on it.

On the resignation letter -the someone could get hurt tone -well its a prison with dangerous inmates.

I mean its a bit of a laugh isn't it that these ideas are bought into by otherwise intelligent people.

Good points.

Don't know if you say RTE's Six One on this story (26th April)http://www.rte.ie/news/6news/:

Governor of women's prison leaves role
Sharon Tobin reports that Kathleen McMahon has said she has a number of problems with the way the Dóchas Centre is being run

Eibhlin Byrne, Dóchas Centre Visiting Committee Chairperson, says rooms built for rehabilitation purposes are being used for accommodation

The Irish Penal Reform Trust last year supposedly made some sort of submission on women's offenders.

Talking about the prison, Eibhlin Byrne says it's not as bad as some regimes/similar - I think to myself finally they are going to point out that the men have it worse but no - she goes on to say there are worse in the US.

They make a huge fuss about people having to share cells in the Women's prison but men have to do the same in the men's prison and there is more than two in the cell some of the time.

CDfm

If i ever get in trouble I want to be a woman............:D

CDfm

I dont know if anyone saw this in the Herald


http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/sinead-ryan/sinead-ryan-one-raped-a-woman-one-killed-his-partner-both-will-be-out-in-less-than-six-years-not-a-good-day-in-our-courts-2153957.html

One killing and one rape of women and the guys are out in less than 6 years. I dont know about others but its not a keeping score thing but I feel weird about these sentences.A bit on the light side.

One point that the Governor of Dochas did say was that you have inmates in for "crimes" like non payment of debts like car loans and credit cards using places.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

I dont know if anyone saw this in the Herald


http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/sinead-ryan/sinead-ryan-one-raped-a-woman-one-killed-his-partner-both-will-be-out-in-less-than-six-years-not-a-good-day-in-our-courts-2153957.html

One killing and one rape of women and the guys are out in less than 6 years. I dont know about others but its not a keeping score thing but I feel weird about these sentences.A bit on the light side.

Technically, the rape sentence is an eight year sentence but with good behaviour he'll be out in six.

While it could be longer, an eight year sentence is not nothing in the Irish context.
There is a clear signal with both these sentences that they shouldn't have done what they did.

I don't think there was a clear signal in the two women in this thread where they got suspended sentences for killing a man. It's a very mixed message.


The death case is a manslaughter case between lovers who "had spent the afternoon of December 17, 2008 together drinking and smoking heroin."
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/im-evil-what-killer-who-stabbed-lover-six-times-in-the-back-told-999-operator-2153941.html

In his subsequent interviews with gardai, Butcher described a "violent struggle" after a row broke out over money for drugs.

He said Rebecca snatched up a bread knife and came towards him threatening to cut off his balls.

Butcher said he had pressed her up against the wall, and that's when the knife must have "went in".

"I'm sorry it happened, I loved the girl," he told gardai.

In handing down the sentence, Mr Justice George Birmingham said the two had lived a "chaotic lifestyle" together.

He said the killing was "desperate and serious" and that there were a number of aggravating factors he had to consider, including the extent of the violence, the six stab wounds and the use of a bread knife.

He said the killing was made all the more tragic by the fact that it happened when Butcher seemed to be getting his life back on track, taking part in the resettlement programme for homeless men.

CDfm

I genuinely feel the sentences were too lenient and thats on a human level -its not a competition -if a woman had killed her partner over money and drugs I would feel the same. An indiscriminate rape.

These guys should get 20-30 years.

The Governor Kathleen McMahon who resigned mentioned women imprisoned for non violent minor crimes in with the likes of the scissors sisters who are violent offenders (though she did not mention them specifically).

So if you need to incarcerate ordinary women criminals there are plenty of unused former boarding schools etc that could be adapted for open prison use for a different category of women prisoners-which may not be perfect but reasonanble -where the aim is to deprive them of liberty and rehabilitate.

We live in a fairly tabloid society when we cant decide whats right or wrong. Its either a famine or a feast.



Thats what does my head in about lots of these debates.

coffee_cake

CDfm wrote: »

I dont know if anyone saw this in the Herald


http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/sinead-ryan/sinead-ryan-one-raped-a-woman-one-killed-his-partner-both-will-be-out-in-less-than-six-years-not-a-good-day-in-our-courts-2153957.html

One killing and one rape of women and the guys are out in less than 6 years. I dont know about others but its not a keeping score thing but I feel weird about these sentences.A bit on the light side.

One point that the Governor of Dochas did say was that you have inmates in for "crimes" like non payment of debts like car loans and credit cards using places.

There was an opinion piece in the irish times either yesterday or monday detailing the conditions, and they were appalling. Talking about rats and lice everywhere, sleeping in the showers, all sorts of carryon. I can't find the article though, hard to find previous ones on their website
I don't know about men's conditions but I don't think it's fair to say on this thread women have it easy in prison. imagine those conditions when you just couldn't afford to repay a debt.

CDfm

bluewolf wrote: »

There was an opinion piece in the irish times either yesterday or monday detailing the conditions, and they were appalling. Talking about rats and lice everywhere, sleeping in the showers, all sorts of carryon. I can't find the article though, hard to find previous ones on their website
I don't know about men's conditions but I don't think it's fair to say on this thread women have it easy in prison. imagine those conditions when you just couldn't afford to repay a debt.

Are you sure thats not the male wing of the prison you are talking about.

I had to reread some of the articles to make sense of them and on the rereading I realised that some of the points that Governor Kathleen MacMahon made were good ones and were lost in the reportage.

A person jailed for a minor offense should be able to be segregated away from a violent prisoner.We are appalled when a guy gets injured or killed in these circumstances so should not want it to happen to any prisoner male or female.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

I genuinely feel the sentences were too lenient and thats on a human level -its not a competition -if a woman had killed her partner over money and drugs I would feel the same. An indiscriminate rape.

Did you see that she went for him with a knife in the fight? That is a mitigating factor in my mind.

I can understand people want longer sentences.

But the sentence is nothing like a suspended sentence for killing somebody which, as I say, is not a very clear signal that the person did something they shouldn’t have done.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

A person jailed for a minor offense should be able to be segregated away from a violent prisoner.We are appalled when a guy gets injured or killed in these circumstances so should not want it to happen to any prisoner male or female.

I've no problem with this but the reportage gives the impression that this is only a problem for women prisoners.

coffee_cake

CDfm wrote: »

Are you sure thats not the male wing of the prison you are talking about.

Yes it was an opinion piece on the womens wing. I really can't find it though There are some other articles making reference to the conditions as well I think.

iptba

bluewolf wrote: »

There was an opinion piece in the irish times either yesterday or monday detailing the conditions, and they were appalling. Talking about rats and lice everywhere, sleeping in the showers, all sorts of carryon. I can't find the article though, hard to find previous ones on their website
I don't know about men's conditions but I don't think it's fair to say on this thread women have it easy in prison. imagine those conditions when you just couldn't afford to repay a debt.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0426/1224269092789.html

I have read quite a lot of the coverage and the complaints on RTE news. I never saw any suggestion that this was the complaint about the women’s prison.

Mountjoy Prison is a Victorian prison that is 160 years old this year. It is totally run down, unsuitable for present needs and overcrowded.

- the Dochas Centre was built in the late-1990s.

Prisoners in overcrowded cells sleeping on floors infested with cockroaches, mice, ants and other assorted vermin. Others sleeping in shower areas, reception areas and other unsuitable areas;

Prisoners forced to perform daily bodily functions in their cells in front of cell mates, and “slopping out” when cell doors are reopened;

Prisoners having to eat all their meals in the same confined cell area where they sleep and perform their bodily functions;

23-hour lockup for those on protection, with just one hour of possible association/recreation.

This doesn't sound like any of the complaints about the women's prison.

CDfm

bluewolf wrote: »

Yes it was an opinion piece on the womens wing. I really can't find it though There are some other articles making reference to it as there was a committee visiting it recently.

Well if you come across it post a link. I found the coverage confusing.

@ipta 2 wrongs dont make a right. If Governor MacMahon thinks some women should be housed seperately for their safety or the safety of others then she should be listened to and it should be factored into the prison building programme and not ignored.

I dont want to see anyone woman having to sleep with rats or cockroches because a man does it and I dont want to see a woman killed by a violent woman either.

coffee_cake

I finally found it as well and re-read it. Yes it doens't sound liek the womens prison - I must have muddled the two Sorry!
In that case let me express my disgust at the conditions the men have !!!

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

@ipta 2 wrongs dont make a right. If Governor MacMahon thinks some women should be housed seperately for their safety or the safety of others then she should be listened to and it should be factored into the prison building programme and not ignored..

(my bold)
When did I say anything else? I think low risk offenders should get treated differently - I just don't think it should just be low risk, female prisoners.

CDfm wrote: »

I dont want to see anyone woman having to sleep with rats or cockroches because a man does it

Show me where it says that's a problem in the women's prison.

iptba

Here is another example of where people are pushing for a different sentencing pattern for women:

Resignation of prison governor

Madam, – Resignations on a point of principle are not common in our political culture; so when a senior public official resigns because she feels that she can no longer carry out her statutory functions, that gesture demands respect and attention. The resignation of Kathleen McMahon as governor of the Dóchas Centre women’s prison (Front page, April 26th) gives rise to serious questions about current conditions in that prison and, more generally, about the direction of policy towards women who come before the courts.

Since its establishment in 1999, the Dóchas Centre has been one of the success stories of the Irish prison system. Under Kathleen McMahon’s leadership, it has managed to provide a progressive and rehabilitative regime for many women, most of whom present with complex and multiple needs.
The prison has, rightly, been put forward as a model of best practice internationally.

Ms McMahon has expressed the fear that the achievements of the last decade at Dóchas are now being fundamentally undermined by chronic overcrowding at the prison and by an apparent acceptance by senior management that this level of overcrowding is likely to continue into the future.

Those who run our prisons know better than anyone else the impact of overcrowding on prisoners and staff. They know too that the origins of overcrowding lie in wasteful and counter-productive sentencing policies. Ms McMahon has rightly pointed out that a significant proportion of the women sent to our closed prisons could be more effectively and more cheaply be dealt with in the community or in open facilities. In England and Wales, there has been a move in this direction in recent years, with commitments from the UK government to reduce the numbers of women in prison. There have also been calls for the establishment of localised small-scale open facilities where lower-risk women offenders can be closely supervised, while retaining their relationships with their families and with their communities.

Last December, the Women in Prison Reform Alliance made a joint submission to the Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern for a review of policy towards women offenders.

We believe such a review could provide a blueprint for reducing overcrowding and developing more suitable alternatives to imprisonment for women who come before the courts. We are still awaiting a response to that submission. In the meantime, we hope this brave and principled act by the governor of the Dóchas Centre women’s prison will lead to serious engagement by Government with this issue. – Yours, etc,

On behalf of the Women in Prison Reform Alliance:

EOIN CARROLL, Acting Director, Jesuit Centre for Faith and Justice;

LIAM HERRICK, Executive Director, Irish Penal Reform Trust;

SUSAN McKAY, Director, National Women’s Council of Ireland;

ELLEN O’MALLEY DUNLOP, CEO, Dublin Rape Crisis Centre;

Dr CHRISTINA QUINLAN, DCU;

MARIAN TANNAM, Co-ordinator, Dominican Justice Office,

C/o Upper Ormond Quay,

Dublin 7.

CDfm

bluewolf wrote: »

I finally found it as well and re-read it. Yes it doens't sound liek the womens prison - I must have muddled the two Sorry!
In that case let me express my disgust at the conditions the men have !!!

I was a bit confused too when I read the initial reports of the resignation and must say that it is refreshing that a public servant actually talks as openly as she has done. Governor MacMahon for President (or the HSE):cool:

iptba

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0427/1224269153849.html
Editorial in Irish Times:

Paul MacKay, outgoing member of the Mountjoy Visiting Committee, has complained of inhumane conditions caused by overcrowding at the male prison. His representations have been met by official denial and political indifference. Last year, chairman of the committee, Stephen Langton made similar complaints.

CDfm

iptba wrote: »

Here is another example of where people are pushing for a different sentencing pattern for women:

But thats like saying anyone other than Lord Longford wanted Myra Hindley the Moors Murderess ( or co-killer wow I am PC Today ) released.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/14/ukcrime.weekend7

(its interesting to see her sister mentioned but not that it was her sister & husband who reported Hindley and Brady to the police)

There are only two womens groups the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre and the National Womens Council mentioned and two men signed and two organisations are religious groups.

EOIN CARROLL, Acting Director, Jesuit Centre for Faith and Justice;

LIAM HERRICK, Executive Director, Irish Penal Reform Trust;

SUSAN McKAY, Director, National Women’s Council of Ireland;

ELLEN O’MALLEY DUNLOP, CEO, Dublin Rape Crisis Centre;

Dr CHRISTINA QUINLAN, DCU;

MARIAN TANNAM, Co-ordinator, Dominican Justice Office,

I see where you are coming from but you will always get lobby groups connecting and supporting one another.

Its like the National Mens Council of Ireland (whoever they are) don't represent me -so these people do not represent all women..

Kournikova

At secondary school years ago we were taken on a tour of Mountjoy and that Dochas Centre and to be honest that Dochas centre is a complete holiday camp in comparison with Mountjoy. Nice clean rooms, a variety of classrooms to rehabilitate all the women and prison officers who are all very nicey nicey with the prisoners.

Then in Mountjoy it's dirty over crowded and the attitude of the officers to the prisoners is definatly more aggressive.

I have stayed in hotels that look as good as the Dochas Centre inside. Also why has it a waffly name, why not call it Mounjoy Women's Prison, after all they didn't get put there for saying their prayers.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

I see where you are coming from but you will always get lobby groups connecting and supporting one another.

Its like the National Mens Council of Ireland (whoever they are) don't represent me -so these people do not represent all women..

I never said they represented all women. But their lobbying and appeals in the media can have influence.

and what you point out:

There are only two womens groups the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre and the National Womens Council mentioned and two men signed and two organisations are religious groups.

shows in a way it won't just women who might be convinced.

iptba

It's a pretty simple pointing I'm making - if people want to say some people shouldn't be in jail, make the point on the type of crime they committed rather than mainly on the gender.

Some of these women committed serious crimes - something you're not reminded of much in the coverage:
(here is a breakdown from the RTE news
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0426/prison.html )

- 25% sentences for manslaughter, conspiring to murder and murder
- 20% serious drug charges
- 25% robbery, theft, criminal charges
- The rest are serial offenders.

Eibhlin Byrne says it does no one's mental health if they're in a bunk bed and they have another woman on top of them for five years - that point equally applies to men.

CDfm

iptba wrote: »

I never said they represented all women. But their lobbying and appeals in the media can have influence.

and what you point out:
shows in a way it won't just women who might be convinced.

I accept its media hype.

But look one guy pointed out NMCI

Nazi Mens Council of Ireland :rolleyes:

and which is hardly inclusive,representative and whoever heard of them.I know its OT but the one sector of men in Ireland that have the lobbying thing down is the gay community. Thats where the expertise is.

Wanting someone elses conditions to get worse does not make you better off.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

Wanting someone elses conditions to get worse does not make you better off.

I want equality and fairness in the eyes of the law, in the courtroom, etc.

There are people who claim that (equality and fairness) is their remit but sometimes they're not very good at it. Many are paid to do this. I'd prefer not to have to spend some time pointing this out and they'd do their jobs in a gender-blind way.