Gender, going to jail, male victims, etc.: the Caroline Brennan case, etc.

CDfm

I dont imagine the jails in Cyprus are very nice- so the govt will have to do its bit. Love and regrets.

It would be nice to see some women post on jail sentences though.

Dublin Rape Crisis does not score high on false accusations-does it?

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

I dont imagine the jails in Cyprus are very nice- so the govt will have to do its bit. Love and regrets.

Countries can often apply for criminals to serve their sentence in their home country as far as I know.

Don't know anything about the conditions of the women's prison in Cyprus. Doubt they're as bad as what men have to put up with in Mountjoy.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

I am just a bit cynical about the use of the battered womans defence and how its used thats all especially in ireland and I feel that defense is open to abuse.

The jury had the opportunity to acquit but didnt so they must not have believed her.

Judging by the date, this appears to be new:
Domestic Violence - The Battered Woman - part 1 of 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEo4Ha4O_uM

iptba

Quote from Domestic Violence - The Battered Woman - part 2 of 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxsV1vhOENA&feature=related

An examination of homicide figures in Ireland* between 1992 and 1996 reports that the victim was male in 15 out of 20 cases committed by women.

And in 35% of cases, a female perpetrator killed her husband.

The report concludes that females are far more likely to kill a spouse than their male counterpart, and are also very unlikely to be punished.

But for some reason, we are never presented with facts like these on the news.

*HOMICIDE IN IRELAND 1992 – 1996, Dr. Enda Dooley, Director of Prison Medical Services, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform

CDfm

wow -even i thought it was the otheer way around.

maybe you should start a thread in tll

this would probably need a thread of its own somewhere as its a different subject and challenges the statistics

PopUp

Iptba - fair play to you for digging out a mention of a genuine academic study. I have just read both of Dooley's reports (you can find them here) and they are without a doubt the most relevant and meaningful studies yet mentioned in the thread. Finally some proper analysis! Thanks for digging them up.

Unfortunately I cannot say the same about the video you linked. Cherrypicked statistics and wild accusations. It's paranoid stuff and needless to say, it's totally misrepresented the actual findings of Dr Dooley.

Anyway, CDfm I think you'll want to hold off on that tLL thread because you've been misled. And I don't blame you because that video is basically presenting Dooley's study in a completely false manner. Here is the actual study, it's very short and I would highly recommend anyone with an interest in this reading it.

The report concludes that females are far more likely to kill a spouse than their male counterpart...

Reading this you would be forgiven for assuming that it means that the majority of domestic partner murders are committed by women against men. They are not. Quite the reverse. Male-on-female spouse murder is twice as common as female-on-male. As Dooley's study makes very clear (relevant stats are on pages 11-12), men commit more partner murders. In the four years for 1992-1996, there were 7 cases of women killing their male partners and 18 cases of men killing their female partners. So there were over twice as many male-perpetrator female-victim cases than vice versa. (This is the exact same ratio as in the earlier report, 1971-1991).

So where does the video get its very misleading statistic? Well in 1992-1996, there were 180 male murderers and 20 female murderers (there were an additional 5 murders where the gender of the perpetrator was unknown). 7 (35%) of the female murderers murdered their spouse. Only one female murderer murdered a stranger. Meanwhile, 134 of the male murderers murdered other men - and gangland, crime, and terrorism related killing all fell within this. So did drunken fights with acquaintances, etc etc - all behaviours that female murderers basically rarely or never engaged in.

So it's not the case that females are more likely to murder their spouse. It is the case that if you are a female murderer, you are more likely to have murdered your spouse than if you are a male murderer.

...and are also very unlikely to be punished.

Again very misleading. 10 of the 20 female murderers were nolle prosecui. But there is no suggestion in the report that female murderers are being 'let off' or that the decision not to prosecute is inappropriate or based on gender bias. 10 women were not prosecuted - but in the same timeframe neither were 19 men.

Anyway iptba thanks again for finding some stats. The reports were very interesting reads. The most recent one was published 2001 - I hope they are planning to commission more up to date ones at some point. In the "current economic climate" who knows though :rolleyes:. Really great for imploding a lot of the media frenzy - not just about the gender stuff but crime in Ireland in general. Strange to read a report on murder and come away with the impression that we are a safe old island all the same! Very interesting.

CDfm

Sorry Pop Up - I agree with you.

The Dooley reports are great and I am not so sure about the video and its iffy.

Factual studies are what are needed in these issues to bring reality to them and complel people to think straight.

Tender Hoop

sluts should do hard time too

r3nu4l

Tender Hoop wrote: »

sluts should do hard time too

Take St Patrick's day off from the forum. 24 hour ban.

CDfm

I know its straying off topic a bit but take Joe O'Reilly's case.

Now I am not saying he is not guilty - what I am saying is that their was no real evidence. The mobile phone technology used to convict is untested.

He might be a dispicable human being and his mother in law didnt like him but that does not make him a murderer.

My sympathy is with Rachels family and children on her death but I am not convinced that the evidence was there to convict.

Joe O'Reilly vs Caroline Brennan.

CDfm

from ireland on line where the victim was put on trial.

Woman to be sentenced for manslaughter of husband
22/03/2010 - 13:50:50

A mother of four who killed her husband by bludgeoning him over the head with a hammer 23 times is to be sentenced for his manslaughter today.

Anne Burke, (aged 58) was cleared of the murder of Patrick Burke on grounds of diminished responsibility by a jury at the Central Criminal Court last December.

She had admitted killing her husband, but had denied murdering him at their Co Laois home on August 19, 2007.

At her sentence hearing today, Mrs Burke's four children said in their victim impact statements that they hoped their mother would not receive a prison sentence.

Linda Burke (aged 22) said she understood why her mother had taken her father's life.

She said her earliest memory was standing at the top of the stairs in her pyjamas, watching her father hold a shotgun to her mother's head and threatening to “blow her head off.”

She said her mother is sorry for what she has done, and is living in a prison of her own making every day.

“But I hope it will not be a prison made of bricks as this would break my heart...I love her unconditionally” she said.

In their joint statement, her older siblings Natasha and Declan Burke, said they hoped their mother would not receive a jail sentence because “she has served a lifetime since the day she was married.”

During her brief trial, the court heard that Mrs Burke, of Ballybrittas in Co Laois, was suffering from a mental disorder, namely severe depression, at the time of the killing which diminished her responsibility for her actions.

The court was also told that the couple's 32-year marriage was marred by continuous and violent rows, fuelled by excessive drinking.

Mrs Burke described her relationship as a “litany of abuse” and said her husband had “murdered her” on their wedding night, and the abuse had continued until the day he died.

She recalled how once he had kicked her in the stomach when she was pregnant with her son, but that he would “deny it all in the morning.”

In her interviews with gardaí, Mrs Burke said she started drinking at 10am on the morning of her husband's death.

He was asleep in the bed when she said she picked up a hammer and hit him over the head. She only remembered hitting him twice, and afterwards she covered his body with a blanket before cutting her wrists.

She had written a suicide note for her children, but her youngest son found her and rang an ambulance.

In her statement, Linda Burke also said her father's death was shocking to her because she had always been convinced it would be he who would take her mother's life.

She said she could never forgive her father, but she had stopped hating him now.

Natasha and Declan Burke said they loved their mother and never blamed her. “Whatever the outcome of her sentence we will stand by her.”

Victim impact statements were also read out on behalf of the deceased's brother and sisters who said Patrick Burke was “not the monster portrayed in the trial.”

They said he was a loving brother who had great affinity with nature and wildlife, and had worked hard as a groundsman to provide for his family.

They said they had not been able to come to terms with his untimely and horrific death and that they had more questions than answers following the trial.

Defence lawyer, Mr Patrick Gageby SC, asked the trial judge, Mr Justice Patrick McCarthy to take into consideration Mrs Burke's genuine remorse.

He said the most important mitigating circumstance was her mental disorder.

He also said she is no longer drinking and that “all the signs for the future bode well” in that there is little risk of her re-offending, and she has very good interaction with the probation service.

Mr Paddy McCarthy prosecuting said that the DPP was of the view that treatment for Mrs Burke should be the focus of her sentence.

Mr Justice McCarthy adjourned the matter until this morning when he will hand down sentence

.

iptba

I haven't caught up on this thread yet (have put it aside to do) but regard insanity and psychiatric disorders being a defence (in general), I know that the psychiatrist Thomas Szasz (for one) has some interesting things to say on that.

Rebeller

CDfm wrote: »

from ireland on line where the victim was put on trial..

Suspended sentence

CDfm

Rebeller wrote: »

Suspended sentence

The way it is looking is that there was a different standard applied to the Joe O'Reilly case.

Sorry but that seems amost reasonable conclusion. Since he is male and if he had been female he would never have been brought to trial.

iptba

If he was such a bad husband, it might have been better if she didn't live with him for all those decades. She had choices.

CDfm

Robbed this from the Gender quota thread and someone posted it from the Offally Express


Different strokes

Wednesday, 24th March 2010

</DIV></DIV></DIV>estic and EU electoral politics. They were speaking following a forum on the issue organised by the European Parliament Office in Dublin.

"If we don't have some proactive measures to push and pull women into politics it will never happen. I'm 50 now, and I don't see any significant change in politics since my twenties, it's still a boys' network," said Fine Gael MEP Mairead McGuinness.

Just three of Ireland's 12 MEPs are women, giving Ireland one of the lowest levels of female representation in the European Parliament. In the Dáil, only 13 per cent of TDs are women, compared to 18 per cent globally.

Labour MEP Nessa Childers encouraged the Irish government to follow the example of more than 100 other countries worldwide and legislate to improve women's political representation.

"Voluntary codes and the light-touch approach just don't work here," she said.</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>

citytillidie

They are talking about this now on today fm

iptba

citytillidie wrote: »

They are talking about this now on today fm

Gender quotas or sentencing?

citytillidie

iptba wrote: »

Gender quotas or sentencing?

Stentencing. I missed it as no radio in work

CDfm

iptba wrote: »

Gender quotas or sentencing?

Definately an interesting idea to get equality into sentencing.

citytillidie

citytillidie wrote: »

Stentencing. I missed it as no radio in work

Here is a link to it http://www.radioireland.ie/lastword/2432010-17.wmv

Last 15 mins

iptba

citytillidie wrote: »

Here is a link to it http://www.radioireland.ie/lastword/2432010-17.wmv

Last 15 mins

Thanks for that. (Just to save people a little time -no point waiting till after the ads as nothing then)

Matt Cooper suggested that when somebody’s life is taken, a custodial sentence of some sort could be given to send out a message that a life is important/similar. Brenda Power agreed.

They also mentioned a case of David Bourke from Castleknock. He was convicted of murdering his wife last. There was a lot of provocation supposedly and the judge expressed the opinion to somebody (when the jury was out) that a manslaughter verdict might be more appropriate. But the jury came back with a murder verdict. This was brought up in the context of whether crimes are treated differently depending on the gender of the plaintiff/defendent.

iptba

Catherine Nevin was mentioned earlier in this thread. People interested in that case might be interested in:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0324/nevin.html

Earlier, a newspaper journalist told the Court of Criminal Appeal that she was asked to 'spin' positive stories about Catherine Nevin in exchange for an exclusive interview on her release from prison.

Sunday World journalist Niamh O'Connor refused to name the person who approached her on Catherine Nevin's behalf but agreed it was a 'professional person'.

Ms O'Connor was questioned about an article she wrote in February 2008, which claimed William McClean was a garda informer with paramilitary links.

Ms O'Connor said she saw a garda document called a 'suspect antecedent history form' containing information on Mr McClean and wrote an article saying it appeared to 'compromise the State's case' against Catherine Nevin.

Ms O'Connor said she told the person who approached her that she would not spin stories.

She told the court while she had tried once before, she now had no wish to interview Catherine Nevin.

She said she had written a book on Mrs Nevin and believed she had murdered her husband.

iptba

Just got around to reading the report and the reply. Reading what the 1992-1996 report says, the people who wrote the video overstate the evidence. That’s not the same as saying there is no difference and the 1971-1991 report gives some interesting info that isn't analysed in the 1992-1996 report.

PopUp wrote: »

Again very misleading. 10 of the 20 female murderers were nolle prosecui. But there is no suggestion in the report that female murderers are being 'let off' or that the decision not to prosecute is inappropriate or based on gender bias. 10 women were not prosecuted - but in the same timeframe neither were 19 men.

This is what the report says on this (i.e. just noting that there is a statistically significant difference)

Similar to the previous study finding was that female perpetrators were significantly more likely to have a nolle prosecui entered. Of the 20 cases involving a female perpetrator 10 (50%) had a nolle prosecui entered compared to 19 of the 180 where the gender of the perpetrator was known to be male (Chi-squared=19.52; p<0.0001).

The figures were similar in the 1971-1991 report which also made an interesting observation about suspended sentences (the 1992-1996 report didn't give a gender breakdown of suspended sentences that I recall or much info on it)

Female perpetrators were significantly more likely not to be charged or to have a Nolle Prosequi entered. In those cases involving a female perpetrator (42) no charge or prosecution occurred in 14 (33.3%) compared to 36 (6.6%) of the 545 cases involving male perpetrators (Chi-squared=35.75; p< 0.0001). In a further 10 (23.8%) cases a conviction resulted in a suspended sentence compared to 51 (9.4%) in cases involving male perpetrators (Chi-squared=8.75; p< 0.003).

PopUp wrote: »

Reading this you would be forgiven for assuming that it means that the majority of domestic partner murders are committed by women against men. They are not. Quite the reverse. Male-on-female spouse murder is twice as common as female-on-male. As Dooley's study makes very clear (relevant stats are on pages 11-12), men commit more partner murders. In the four years for 1992-1996, there were 7 cases of women killing their male partners and 18 cases of men killing their female partners. So there were over twice as many male-perpetrator female-victim cases than vice versa. (This is the exact same ratio as in the earlier report, 1971-1991).

So where does the video get its very misleading statistic? Well in 1992-1996, there were 180 male murderers and 20 female murderers (there were an additional 5 murders where the gender of the perpetrator was unknown). 7 (35%) of the female murderers murdered their spouse. Only one female murderer murdered a stranger. Meanwhile, 134 of the male murderers murdered other men - and gangland, crime, and terrorism related killing all fell within this. So did drunken fights with acquaintances, etc etc - all behaviours that female murderers basically rarely or never engaged in.

So it's not the case that females are more likely to murder their spouse. It is the case that if you are a female murderer, you are more likely to have murdered your spouse than if you are a male murderer.

This looks a fair summary alright on that point alright.

There are these quotes in the two reports but they don't get across the figures:
1992-1996 report

In the small proportion of cases involving a female perpetrator the victim is much more likely to be a partner or family member.

1971-1991 report

Females are significantly more likely to kill a spouse or relative than males.

Here is something else from the 1971-1991 report:

In the 205 cases which resulted in a Manslaughter conviction (Table 18) 193 cases resulted
in an effective or suspended prison sentence. These cases involved 182 males and 11
females. It was noticeable that the 11 females convicted received an average sentence of
41.7 months whereas the 182 males received an average sentence of 63.9 months.

(The 1992-1996 report doesn't give a gender breakdown on this)

I dislike the way the figures don't distinguish between a suspended sentence and an effective sentence. In both the Caroline Brennan and Anne Burke case, the woman got a 5-year suspended sentence. That is really a totally different sentence than a 5-year effective sentence. The 1971-1991 report says overall women are much more likely to get a suspended sentence if convicted (see above) but doesn't give a breakdown for manslaughter specifically.

Here's another quote from the 1971-1991 report

Homicide is predominantly committed by men (over 90% of perpetrators are men ). The
victims are more evenly distributed but are still predominantly male (72%). It is worth
noting that homicide by females is predominantly a family affair (over 85% killed a spouse
or family member). Female perpetrators are less likely to be indicted and more likely to
receive a shorter sentence on conviction than males.

Sorry this is a bit disorganised. I only read the 1992-1996 report. However, the other report talks about gender more.
Here's some more info.

During the twenty year period of the study there were only two convictions for Infanticide
in Ireland. This study indicated that during that period a total of nine mothers killed
their children under one year of age. In most of these cascs there was no apparent dispute
that the mother was suffering from some form of mental disorder at the time of the
killing (and therefore would have met the crite ria for infanticide under the Infanticide
ACI 1949). Nevert heless, in seven of the nine cases no charge was brought or a Nolle
Prosequi was entered on the instructions of the DPP. During the same period in
England & Wales a total of 136 convictions for Infanticide occurred. Even when the
relative populations of the two jurisdictions are taken into account the English rate is still
approximately 4 to 5 times greater. This apparent hesitancy to lay charges and the lesser
likel ihood of a homicide conviction for a female perpetrator has been noted in a number
of studies" [22,30-31].

Probably last extract. 1971-1991 report:

Summary

This study has reviewed all homicides occurring in the Republic of Ireland during the
period 1972 to 1991 (inclusive). To date there has been no similar study examining the
criminological aspects or Irish homicide with emphas is on any changes that have occurred
over this period. Unlike other crime the number of homicides committed annually has
shown no sustained increase. The rate of homicide in Ireland appears to be among the
lowest in Europe.

Homicides predominantly involve the killing of a male by another, somewhat younger,
man. Most homicides occur at night and a high proportion involve intoxication in one or
both parties. Most often the motive is some form of anger or rage and the incident occurs
with out planning or premeditation, In the small number or homicides involving female
perpetrato rs the victim is significantly more likely to be a spouse or family member.
The vast majority of homicides are detected by the police and a conviction occurs in
approximately two-thirds of all cases. The exception to this high detection rate are those
cases considered due to subversive or terrorist motivation where planning and the availability
of a support system contribute to low detection and conviction.

Female perpetrators are significantly less likely to be convicte d, and if convicted they
receive significantly shorter sentences than their male counterparts. There has been a
significam increase in the length of discretionary sentences applied. In fanticide appears
to be relatively rare. "Psychiatric" homicides show a significant temporal shirt from "normal"
homicides in that they occur more often during the day-time period. In addition
they show more pre-meditation and less involvement of alcohol. Victims are more likely
to be young and also more likely to be family members.

Unlike the case in othe jurisdictions there appears 10 have been little legal or public
debate in relationn to the classification of homicide, the appropriateness or necessity for
a mandatory life sentence for murder convictions, the need for legal provisions in relation
to homicide committed under possible psychiatric disability to be updated to reflect
develop ments in psychiatric practice, etc. It is hoped that the information contained in
this study will provide a factual basis to assist those who might engage in such a debate.

iptba

iptba wrote: »

Thanks for that. (Just to save people a little time -no point waiting till after the ads as nothing then)

Matt Cooper suggested that when somebody’s life is taken, a custodial sentence of some sort could be given to send out a message that a life is important/similar. Brenda Power agreed.

They also mentioned a case of David Bourke from Castleknock. He was convicted of murdering his wife last. There was a lot of provocation supposedly and the judge expressed the opinion to somebody (when the jury was out) that a manslaughter verdict might be more appropriate. But the jury came back with a murder verdict. This was brought up in the context of whether crimes are treated differently depending on the gender of the plaintiff/defendent.

Brenda Power: We must not allow abuse to excuse killing However mitigating the factors, the unlawful taking of a life should always attract a custodial sentence http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7078257.ece

citytillidie

After all the media coverage of Rhianna's fella Chris Brown beating her up. I never once heard of Mary J Blige beating up her husband.

http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/blige_hauls_off_on_husband_o32W7IKFja08UXzRipJiHI

iptba

citytillidie wrote: »

After all the media coverage of Rhianna's fella Chris Brown beating her up. I never once heard of Mary J Blige beating up her husband.

http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/blige_hauls_off_on_husband_o32W7IKFja08UXzRipJiHI

Link didn't work for me but if one puts:
"mary j blige" husband inurl:nypost
into Google and click "cached" it shows up.

CDfm

citytillidie wrote: »

After all the media coverage of Rhianna's fella Chris Brown beating her up. I never once heard of Mary J Blige beating up her husband.

http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/blige_hauls_off_on_husband_o32W7IKFja08UXzRipJiHI

Thats alright -you shouldnt be hung up on celebrity but on how the perpetrators are treated.

I have never heard of a member of an irish union complain about the gender based domestic violence policy of the ICTU or non members write to the irish newspapers highlighting it -as that is something you can influence.

http://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/domestic_violence.pdf

So if you are looking for change you should take action and not just moan.

Mrmoe

CDfm wrote: »

Thats alright -you shouldnt be hung up on celebrity but on how the perpetrators are treated.

I have never heard of a member of an irish union complain about the gender based domestic violence policy of the ICTU or non members write to the irish newspapers highlighting it -as that is something you can influence.

http://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/domestic_violence.pdf

So if you are looking for change you should take action and not just moan.

That article has just given me another reason to dislike trade unions. I am not too sure that I am surprised by it to be honest. I would like to hear them comment on the disparity in the article but I doubt that they will.

iptba

Letter in Sunday Times where a sociologist appears to be justifying women killing men in domestic situations.

Abusive relationships
Brenda Power laments that a woman can take the life of her abusive husband with impunity ("We must not allow abuse to excuse killing", Comment, last week).

She observes that a woman who suffered a "litany of brutal incidents" made no serious attempt to leave her husband.

As a sociologist with years of research on domestic violence, I know many women try to leave but are forced back into violent relationships due to threats and economic straits. Some women do not even try to escape as they know their departure will trigger an escalation of violence. Indeed women are at increased risk of being killed after they leave.

So the only alternative to taking an abuser's life may be a woman's own death - not an acceptable alternative.

Dr. Elizabeth Dermody Leonard

If anyone wants to write a letter in reply, it should be E-mailed to Ireland@sunday-times.ie with your full address and telephone number (and name) by midday Thursday. Sunday Times letters tend to be quite short.