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Gender, going to jail, male victims, etc.: the Caroline Brennan case, etc.

124

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I dont imagine the jails in Cyprus are very nice- so the govt will have to do its bit. Love and regrets.

    It would be nice to see some women post on jail sentences though.

    Dublin Rape Crisis does not score high on false accusations-does it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    I dont imagine the jails in Cyprus are very nice- so the govt will have to do its bit. Love and regrets.
    Countries can often apply for criminals to serve their sentence in their home country as far as I know.

    Don't know anything about the conditions of the women's prison in Cyprus. Doubt they're as bad as what men have to put up with in Mountjoy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    I am just a bit cynical about the use of the battered womans defence and how its used thats all especially in ireland and I feel that defense is open to abuse.

    The jury had the opportunity to acquit but didnt so they must not have believed her.
    Judging by the date, this appears to be new:
    Domestic Violence - The Battered Woman - part 1 of 2:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEo4Ha4O_uM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    Quote from Domestic Violence - The Battered Woman - part 2 of 2:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxsV1vhOENA&feature=related

    An examination of homicide figures in Ireland* between 1992 and 1996 reports that the victim was male in 15 out of 20 cases committed by women.

    And in 35% of cases, a female perpetrator killed her husband.

    The report concludes that females are far more likely to kill a spouse than their male counterpart, and are also very unlikely to be punished.

    But for some reason, we are never presented with facts like these on the news.

    *HOMICIDE IN IRELAND 1992 – 1996, Dr. Enda Dooley, Director of Prison Medical Services, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    wow -even i thought it was the otheer way around.

    maybe you should start a thread in tll

    this would probably need a thread of its own somewhere as its a different subject and challenges the statistics


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭PopUp


    Iptba - fair play to you for digging out a mention of a genuine academic study. I have just read both of Dooley's reports (you can find them here) and they are without a doubt the most relevant and meaningful studies yet mentioned in the thread. Finally some proper analysis! Thanks for digging them up.

    Unfortunately I cannot say the same about the video you linked. Cherrypicked statistics and wild accusations. It's paranoid stuff and needless to say, it's totally misrepresented the actual findings of Dr Dooley.

    Anyway, CDfm I think you'll want to hold off on that tLL thread because you've been misled. And I don't blame you because that video is basically presenting Dooley's study in a completely false manner. Here is the actual study, it's very short and I would highly recommend anyone with an interest in this reading it.
    The report concludes that females are far more likely to kill a spouse than their male counterpart...
    Reading this you would be forgiven for assuming that it means that the majority of domestic partner murders are committed by women against men. They are not. Quite the reverse. Male-on-female spouse murder is twice as common as female-on-male. As Dooley's study makes very clear (relevant stats are on pages 11-12), men commit more partner murders. In the four years for 1992-1996, there were 7 cases of women killing their male partners and 18 cases of men killing their female partners. So there were over twice as many male-perpetrator female-victim cases than vice versa. (This is the exact same ratio as in the earlier report, 1971-1991).

    So where does the video get its very misleading statistic? Well in 1992-1996, there were 180 male murderers and 20 female murderers (there were an additional 5 murders where the gender of the perpetrator was unknown). 7 (35%) of the female murderers murdered their spouse. Only one female murderer murdered a stranger. Meanwhile, 134 of the male murderers murdered other men - and gangland, crime, and terrorism related killing all fell within this. So did drunken fights with acquaintances, etc etc - all behaviours that female murderers basically rarely or never engaged in.

    So it's not the case that females are more likely to murder their spouse. It is the case that if you are a female murderer, you are more likely to have murdered your spouse than if you are a male murderer.
    ...and are also very unlikely to be punished.
    Again very misleading. 10 of the 20 female murderers were nolle prosecui. But there is no suggestion in the report that female murderers are being 'let off' or that the decision not to prosecute is inappropriate or based on gender bias. 10 women were not prosecuted - but in the same timeframe neither were 19 men.

    Anyway iptba thanks again for finding some stats. The reports were very interesting reads. The most recent one was published 2001 - I hope they are planning to commission more up to date ones at some point. In the "current economic climate" who knows though :rolleyes:. Really great for imploding a lot of the media frenzy - not just about the gender stuff but crime in Ireland in general. Strange to read a report on murder and come away with the impression that we are a safe old island all the same! Very interesting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Sorry Pop Up - I agree with you.

    The Dooley reports are great and I am not so sure about the video and its iffy.

    Factual studies are what are needed in these issues to bring reality to them and complel people to think straight.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭Tender Hoop


    sluts should do hard time too


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,399 ✭✭✭✭r3nu4l


    sluts should do hard time too

    Take St Patrick's day off from the forum. 24 hour ban.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I know its straying off topic a bit but take Joe O'Reilly's case.

    Now I am not saying he is not guilty - what I am saying is that their was no real evidence. The mobile phone technology used to convict is untested.

    He might be a dispicable human being and his mother in law didnt like him but that does not make him a murderer.

    My sympathy is with Rachels family and children on her death but I am not convinced that the evidence was there to convict.

    Joe O'Reilly vs Caroline Brennan.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    from ireland on line where the victim was put on trial.

    Woman to be sentenced for manslaughter of husband
    22/03/2010 - 13:50:50

    A mother of four who killed her husband by bludgeoning him over the head with a hammer 23 times is to be sentenced for his manslaughter today.

    Anne Burke, (aged 58) was cleared of the murder of Patrick Burke on grounds of diminished responsibility by a jury at the Central Criminal Court last December.

    She had admitted killing her husband, but had denied murdering him at their Co Laois home on August 19, 2007.

    At her sentence hearing today, Mrs Burke's four children said in their victim impact statements that they hoped their mother would not receive a prison sentence.

    Linda Burke (aged 22) said she understood why her mother had taken her father's life.

    She said her earliest memory was standing at the top of the stairs in her pyjamas, watching her father hold a shotgun to her mother's head and threatening to “blow her head off.”

    She said her mother is sorry for what she has done, and is living in a prison of her own making every day.

    “But I hope it will not be a prison made of bricks as this would break my heart...I love her unconditionally” she said.

    In their joint statement, her older siblings Natasha and Declan Burke, said they hoped their mother would not receive a jail sentence because “she has served a lifetime since the day she was married.”

    During her brief trial, the court heard that Mrs Burke, of Ballybrittas in Co Laois, was suffering from a mental disorder, namely severe depression, at the time of the killing which diminished her responsibility for her actions.

    The court was also told that the couple's 32-year marriage was marred by continuous and violent rows, fuelled by excessive drinking.

    Mrs Burke described her relationship as a “litany of abuse” and said her husband had “murdered her” on their wedding night, and the abuse had continued until the day he died.

    She recalled how once he had kicked her in the stomach when she was pregnant with her son, but that he would “deny it all in the morning.”

    In her interviews with gardaí, Mrs Burke said she started drinking at 10am on the morning of her husband's death.

    He was asleep in the bed when she said she picked up a hammer and hit him over the head. She only remembered hitting him twice, and afterwards she covered his body with a blanket before cutting her wrists.

    She had written a suicide note for her children, but her youngest son found her and rang an ambulance.

    In her statement, Linda Burke also said her father's death was shocking to her because she had always been convinced it would be he who would take her mother's life.

    She said she could never forgive her father, but she had stopped hating him now.

    Natasha and Declan Burke said they loved their mother and never blamed her. “Whatever the outcome of her sentence we will stand by her.”

    Victim impact statements were also read out on behalf of the deceased's brother and sisters who said Patrick Burke was “not the monster portrayed in the trial.”

    They said he was a loving brother who had great affinity with nature and wildlife, and had worked hard as a groundsman to provide for his family.

    They said they had not been able to come to terms with his untimely and horrific death and that they had more questions than answers following the trial.

    Defence lawyer, Mr Patrick Gageby SC, asked the trial judge, Mr Justice Patrick McCarthy to take into consideration Mrs Burke's genuine remorse.

    He said the most important mitigating circumstance was her mental disorder.

    He also said she is no longer drinking and that “all the signs for the future bode well” in that there is little risk of her re-offending, and she has very good interaction with the probation service.

    Mr Paddy McCarthy prosecuting said that the DPP was of the view that treatment for Mrs Burke should be the focus of her sentence.

    Mr Justice McCarthy adjourned the matter until this morning when he will hand down sentence
    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    I haven't caught up on this thread yet (have put it aside to do) but regard insanity and psychiatric disorders being a defence (in general), I know that the psychiatrist Thomas Szasz (for one) has some interesting things to say on that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 271 ✭✭Rebeller


    CDfm wrote: »
    from ireland on line where the victim was put on trial..

    Suspended sentence


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Rebeller wrote: »

    The way it is looking is that there was a different standard applied to the Joe O'Reilly case.

    Sorry but that seems amost reasonable conclusion. Since he is male and if he had been female he would never have been brought to trial.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    If he was such a bad husband, it might have been better if she didn't live with him for all those decades. She had choices.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Robbed this from the Gender quota thread and someone posted it from the Offally Express


    Different strokes
    Wednesday, 24th March 2010

    </DIV></DIV></DIV>estic and EU electoral politics. They were speaking following a forum on the issue organised by the European Parliament Office in Dublin.

    "If we don't have some proactive measures to push and pull women into politics it will never happen. I'm 50 now, and I don't see any significant change in politics since my twenties, it's still a boys' network," said Fine Gael MEP Mairead McGuinness.

    Just three of Ireland's 12 MEPs are women, giving Ireland one of the lowest levels of female representation in the European Parliament. In the Dáil, only 13 per cent of TDs are women, compared to 18 per cent globally.

    Labour MEP Nessa Childers encouraged the Irish government to follow the example of more than 100 other countries worldwide and legislate to improve women's political representation.

    "Voluntary codes and the light-touch approach just don't work here," she said.</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,411 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    They are talking about this now on today fm

    ******



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    They are talking about this now on today fm
    Gender quotas or sentencing?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,411 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    iptba wrote: »
    Gender quotas or sentencing?


    Stentencing. I missed it as no radio in work

    ******



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    iptba wrote: »
    Gender quotas or sentencing?

    Definately an interesting idea to get equality into sentencing.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,411 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    Stentencing. I missed it as no radio in work


    Here is a link to it http://www.radioireland.ie/lastword/2432010-17.wmv

    Last 15 mins

    ******



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    Here is a link to it http://www.radioireland.ie/lastword/2432010-17.wmv

    Last 15 mins
    Thanks for that. (Just to save people a little time -no point waiting till after the ads as nothing then)

    Matt Cooper suggested that when somebody’s life is taken, a custodial sentence of some sort could be given to send out a message that a life is important/similar. Brenda Power agreed.

    They also mentioned a case of David Bourke from Castleknock. He was convicted of murdering his wife last. There was a lot of provocation supposedly and the judge expressed the opinion to somebody (when the jury was out) that a manslaughter verdict might be more appropriate. But the jury came back with a murder verdict. This was brought up in the context of whether crimes are treated differently depending on the gender of the plaintiff/defendent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    Catherine Nevin was mentioned earlier in this thread. People interested in that case might be interested in:
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0324/nevin.html
    Earlier, a newspaper journalist told the Court of Criminal Appeal that she was asked to 'spin' positive stories about Catherine Nevin in exchange for an exclusive interview on her release from prison.

    Sunday World journalist Niamh O'Connor refused to name the person who approached her on Catherine Nevin's behalf but agreed it was a 'professional person'.

    Ms O'Connor was questioned about an article she wrote in February 2008, which claimed William McClean was a garda informer with paramilitary links.

    Ms O'Connor said she saw a garda document called a 'suspect antecedent history form' containing information on Mr McClean and wrote an article saying it appeared to 'compromise the State's case' against Catherine Nevin.

    Ms O'Connor said she told the person who approached her that she would not spin stories.

    She told the court while she had tried once before, she now had no wish to interview Catherine Nevin.

    She said she had written a book on Mrs Nevin and believed she had murdered her husband.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    Just got around to reading the report and the reply. Reading what the 1992-1996 report says, the people who wrote the video overstate the evidence. That’s not the same as saying there is no difference and the 1971-1991 report gives some interesting info that isn't analysed in the 1992-1996 report.
    PopUp wrote: »
    Again very misleading. 10 of the 20 female murderers were nolle prosecui. But there is no suggestion in the report that female murderers are being 'let off' or that the decision not to prosecute is inappropriate or based on gender bias. 10 women were not prosecuted - but in the same timeframe neither were 19 men.

    This is what the report says on this (i.e. just noting that there is a statistically significant difference)
    Similar to the previous study finding was that female perpetrators were significantly more likely to have a nolle prosecui entered. Of the 20 cases involving a female perpetrator 10 (50%) had a nolle prosecui entered compared to 19 of the 180 where the gender of the perpetrator was known to be male (Chi-squared=19.52; p<0.0001).

    The figures were similar in the 1971-1991 report which also made an interesting observation about suspended sentences (the 1992-1996 report didn't give a gender breakdown of suspended sentences that I recall or much info on it)
    Female perpetrators were significantly more likely not to be charged or to have a Nolle Prosequi entered. In those cases involving a female perpetrator (42) no charge or prosecution occurred in 14 (33.3%) compared to 36 (6.6%) of the 545 cases involving male perpetrators (Chi-squared=35.75; p< 0.0001). In a further 10 (23.8%) cases a conviction resulted in a suspended sentence compared to 51 (9.4%) in cases involving male perpetrators (Chi-squared=8.75; p< 0.003).

    PopUp wrote: »
    Reading this you would be forgiven for assuming that it means that the majority of domestic partner murders are committed by women against men. They are not. Quite the reverse. Male-on-female spouse murder is twice as common as female-on-male. As Dooley's study makes very clear (relevant stats are on pages 11-12), men commit more partner murders. In the four years for 1992-1996, there were 7 cases of women killing their male partners and 18 cases of men killing their female partners. So there were over twice as many male-perpetrator female-victim cases than vice versa. (This is the exact same ratio as in the earlier report, 1971-1991).

    So where does the video get its very misleading statistic? Well in 1992-1996, there were 180 male murderers and 20 female murderers (there were an additional 5 murders where the gender of the perpetrator was unknown). 7 (35%) of the female murderers murdered their spouse. Only one female murderer murdered a stranger. Meanwhile, 134 of the male murderers murdered other men - and gangland, crime, and terrorism related killing all fell within this. So did drunken fights with acquaintances, etc etc - all behaviours that female murderers basically rarely or never engaged in.

    So it's not the case that females are more likely to murder their spouse. It is the case that if you are a female murderer, you are more likely to have murdered your spouse than if you are a male murderer.
    This looks a fair summary alright on that point alright.

    There are these quotes in the two reports but they don't get across the figures:
    1992-1996 report
    In the small proportion of cases involving a female perpetrator the victim is much more likely to be a partner or family member.

    1971-1991 report
    Females are significantly more likely to kill a spouse or relative than males.

    Here is something else from the 1971-1991 report:
    In the 205 cases which resulted in a Manslaughter conviction (Table 18) 193 cases resulted
    in an effective or suspended prison sentence. These cases involved 182 males and 11
    females. It was noticeable that the 11 females convicted received an average sentence of
    41.7 months whereas the 182 males received an average sentence of 63.9 months.
    (The 1992-1996 report doesn't give a gender breakdown on this)

    I dislike the way the figures don't distinguish between a suspended sentence and an effective sentence. In both the Caroline Brennan and Anne Burke case, the woman got a 5-year suspended sentence. That is really a totally different sentence than a 5-year effective sentence. The 1971-1991 report says overall women are much more likely to get a suspended sentence if convicted (see above) but doesn't give a breakdown for manslaughter specifically.

    Here's another quote from the 1971-1991 report
    Homicide is predominantly committed by men (over 90% of perpetrators are men ). The
    victims are more evenly distributed but are still predominantly male (72%). It is worth
    noting that homicide by females is predominantly a family affair (over 85% killed a spouse
    or family member). Female perpetrators are less likely to be indicted and more likely to
    receive a shorter sentence on conviction than males.

    Sorry this is a bit disorganised. I only read the 1992-1996 report. However, the other report talks about gender more.
    Here's some more info.
    During the twenty year period of the study there were only two convictions for Infanticide
    in Ireland. This study indicated that during that period a total of nine mothers killed
    their children under one year of age. In most of these cascs there was no apparent dispute
    that the mother was suffering from some form of mental disorder at the time of the
    killing (and therefore would have met the crite ria for infanticide under the Infanticide
    ACI 1949). Nevert heless, in seven of the nine cases no charge was brought or a Nolle
    Prosequi was entered on the instructions of the DPP. During the same period in
    England & Wales a total of 136 convictions for Infanticide occurred. Even when the
    relative populations of the two jurisdictions are taken into account the English rate is still
    approximately 4 to 5 times greater. This apparent hesitancy to lay charges and the lesser
    likel ihood of a homicide conviction for a female perpetrator has been noted in a number
    of studies" [22,30-31].

    Probably last extract. 1971-1991 report:
    Summary

    This study has reviewed all homicides occurring in the Republic of Ireland during the
    period 1972 to 1991 (inclusive). To date there has been no similar study examining the
    criminological aspects or Irish homicide with emphas is on any changes that have occurred
    over this period. Unlike other crime the number of homicides committed annually has
    shown no sustained increase. The rate of homicide in Ireland appears to be among the
    lowest in Europe.

    Homicides predominantly involve the killing of a male by another, somewhat younger,
    man. Most homicides occur at night and a high proportion involve intoxication in one or
    both parties. Most often the motive is some form of anger or rage and the incident occurs
    with out planning or premeditation, In the small number or homicides involving female
    perpetrato rs the victim is significantly more likely to be a spouse or family member.
    The vast majority of homicides are detected by the police and a conviction occurs in
    approximately two-thirds of all cases. The exception to this high detection rate are those
    cases considered due to subversive or terrorist motivation where planning and the availability
    of a support system contribute to low detection and conviction.

    Female perpetrators are significantly less likely to be convicte d, and if convicted they
    receive significantly shorter sentences than their male counterparts. There has been a
    significam increase in the length of discretionary sentences applied. In fanticide appears
    to be relatively rare. "Psychiatric" homicides show a significant temporal shirt from "normal"
    homicides in that they occur more often during the day-time period. In addition
    they show more pre-meditation and less involvement of alcohol. Victims are more likely
    to be young and also more likely to be family members.

    Unlike the case in othe jurisdictions there appears 10 have been little legal or public
    debate in relationn to the classification of homicide, the appropriateness or necessity for
    a mandatory life sentence for murder convictions, the need for legal provisions in relation
    to homicide committed under possible psychiatric disability to be updated to reflect
    develop ments in psychiatric practice, etc. It is hoped that the information contained in
    this study will provide a factual basis to assist those who might engage in such a debate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    iptba wrote: »
    Thanks for that. (Just to save people a little time -no point waiting till after the ads as nothing then)

    Matt Cooper suggested that when somebody’s life is taken, a custodial sentence of some sort could be given to send out a message that a life is important/similar. Brenda Power agreed.

    They also mentioned a case of David Bourke from Castleknock. He was convicted of murdering his wife last. There was a lot of provocation supposedly and the judge expressed the opinion to somebody (when the jury was out) that a manslaughter verdict might be more appropriate. But the jury came back with a murder verdict. This was brought up in the context of whether crimes are treated differently depending on the gender of the plaintiff/defendent.

    Brenda Power: We must not allow abuse to excuse killing However mitigating the factors, the unlawful taking of a life should always attract a custodial sentence http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7078257.ece


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,411 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    After all the media coverage of Rhianna's fella Chris Brown beating her up. I never once heard of Mary J Blige beating up her husband.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/blige_hauls_off_on_husband_o32W7IKFja08UXzRipJiHI

    ******



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    After all the media coverage of Rhianna's fella Chris Brown beating her up. I never once heard of Mary J Blige beating up her husband.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/blige_hauls_off_on_husband_o32W7IKFja08UXzRipJiHI
    Link didn't work for me but if one puts:
    "mary j blige" husband inurl:nypost
    into Google and click "cached" it shows up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    After all the media coverage of Rhianna's fella Chris Brown beating her up. I never once heard of Mary J Blige beating up her husband.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/blige_hauls_off_on_husband_o32W7IKFja08UXzRipJiHI

    Thats alright -you shouldnt be hung up on celebrity but on how the perpetrators are treated.

    I have never heard of a member of an irish union complain about the gender based domestic violence policy of the ICTU or non members write to the irish newspapers highlighting it -as that is something you can influence.

    http://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/domestic_violence.pdf

    So if you are looking for change you should take action and not just moan.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,213 ✭✭✭Mrmoe


    CDfm wrote: »
    Thats alright -you shouldnt be hung up on celebrity but on how the perpetrators are treated.

    I have never heard of a member of an irish union complain about the gender based domestic violence policy of the ICTU or non members write to the irish newspapers highlighting it -as that is something you can influence.

    http://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/domestic_violence.pdf

    So if you are looking for change you should take action and not just moan.

    That article has just given me another reason to dislike trade unions. I am not too sure that I am surprised by it to be honest. I would like to hear them comment on the disparity in the article but I doubt that they will.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    Letter in Sunday Times where a sociologist appears to be justifying women killing men in domestic situations.
    Abusive relationships
    Brenda Power laments that a woman can take the life of her abusive husband with impunity ("We must not allow abuse to excuse killing", Comment, last week).

    She observes that a woman who suffered a "litany of brutal incidents" made no serious attempt to leave her husband.

    As a sociologist with years of research on domestic violence, I know many women try to leave but are forced back into violent relationships due to threats and economic straits. Some women do not even try to escape as they know their departure will trigger an escalation of violence. Indeed women are at increased risk of being killed after they leave.

    So the only alternative to taking an abuser's life may be a woman's own death - not an acceptable alternative.

    Dr. Elizabeth Dermody Leonard

    If anyone wants to write a letter in reply, it should be E-mailed to Ireland@sunday-times.ie with your full address and telephone number (and name) by midday Thursday. Sunday Times letters tend to be quite short.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    This deserves a thread of its own

    There is something very wrong when a foreign Professor can come in and train social workers in this ideology and they in turn counsel women and tell womens groups that its right to kill.

    Not only that but can go ahead and brag about it in the press.

    The law of the land on reasonable force states there is a duty to retreat in these circumstances.

    It is wrong and totally wrong that she is allowed to teach in an Irish University

    We laugh at gender policies at US Colleges but what type of baggage is she bringing with her.

    She needs to go and go now.


    http://www.vanguard.edu/faculty/eleonard/

    Is the course she is teaching being vetted


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    This deserves a thread of its own

    There is something very wrong when a foreign Professor can come in and train social workers in this ideology and they in turn counsel women and tell womens groups that its right to kill.

    Not only that but can go ahead and brag about it in the press.

    The law of the land on reasonable force states there is a duty to retreat in these circumstances.

    It is wrong and totally wrong that she is allowed to teach in an Irish University

    We laugh at gender policies at US Colleges but what type of baggage is she bringing with her.

    She needs to go and go now.


    http://www.vanguard.edu/faculty/eleonard/

    Is the course she is teaching being vetted
    Good to hear I'm not the only one annoyed at her.

    What do you mean by "vetted"?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Its weird on lots of levels.

    I mean she is teaching social workers and presumably future lawyers and others that its ok to kill in anger and how it can be justified.

    Brenda Powers column that she replied to concerned mandatory jail sentences when someone is killed like this.She(brenda Power) is normally very extreme and pro-feminist so if she has concerns ,then it probably is a good idea to listen to them.

    So yes I am concerned that social workers and others would be trained by her and come away with the idea that it is somehow right and correct to murder. So if she is teaching a course of course its content should be vetted. Its too serious. It must be out of control if Brenda Power says it is.

    So if I look at the morals and ethics of it applied in other situations.

    Let me see - honour killing is wrong no matter the provocation. I can see some people using warped logic to justify it.Am I to excuse honour killing and assisted suicide too.

    Maybe its me, but I get the feeling that some of the newspaper crime reports are so samey that killers get coached in how to give evidence.What was the exception has now become the rule.

    Do we to tell guys its ok to kill abusive wives. No we dont -we tell them to follow the legal route and keep control and jail them if they loose control.

    We know from many international studies that women are as violent as men and the single sex studies she puts forward ignore that.Webalso know that females initiate violence in a lot of cases and mutual violence is common. So if we are training social workers, police.and lawyers we need to keep them up to date with the research so they can spot it and act.

    So when I say vetted I mean that courses are thought with reference to the law and proper dual gender research and not an extreme gender feminist view. Its far too serious -someone could get killed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    Its weird on lots of levels.

    I mean she is teaching social workers and presumably future lawyers and others that its ok to kill in anger and how it can be justified.

    Brenda Powers column that she replied to concerned mandatory jail sentences when someone is killed like this.She(brenda Power) is normally very extreme and pro-feminist so if she has concerns ,then it probably is a good idea to listen to them.

    So yes I am concerned that social workers and others would be trained by her and come away with the idea that it is somehow right and correct to murder. So if she is teaching a course of course its content should be vetted. Its too serious. It must be out of control if Brenda Power says it is.

    So if I look at the morals and ethics of it applied in other situations.

    Let me see - honour killing is wrong no matter the provocation. I can see some people using warped logic to justify it.Am I to excuse honour killing and assisted suicide too.

    Maybe its me, but I get the feeling that some of the newspaper crime reports are so samey that killers get coached in how to give evidence.What was the exception has now become the rule.

    Do we to tell guys its ok to kill abusive wives. No we dont -we tell them to follow the legal route and keep control and jail them if they loose control.

    We know from many international studies that women are as violent as men and the single sex studies she puts forward ignore that.Webalso know that females initiate violence in a lot of cases and mutual violence is common. So if we are training social workers, police.and lawyers we need to keep them up to date with the research so they can spot it and act.

    So when I say vetted I mean that courses are thought with reference to the law and proper dual gender research and not an extreme gender feminist view. Its far too serious -someone could get killed.
    Ok, thanks.

    Are there precedents for vetting what lecturers lecture on, especially in controversial areas? For example, you have to show the head of the department? I studied maths - no vetting for controversial matter needed there!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    iptba wrote: »
    Ok, thanks.

    Are there precedents for vetting what lecturers lecture on, especially in controversial areas? For example, you have to show the head of the department? I studied maths - no vetting for controversial matter needed there!

    Maybe we should. We would vet a medical professor or a science professor. We retrain doctors whose skills are dated -so social workers should also be on the list.

    If I have a social worker being paid by the state and a social worker trainer -I want to know that how they are being trained is correct and consistant and not makey upey.

    They use their training to assess people at risk etc so need proper training and facts rather than biased training.

    Its not controversial its fact-in maths one side of a simoltaneous equation is useles without the other,the information is there alright it just looks like she is not teaching it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    2 letter writers who appear to want women to be treated differently (the second one in particular). On the same day, the paper covered the appalling conditions in the male prison which are much worse than what is in the female prison http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0426/1224269092789.html:
    Resignation of prison governor
    • Madam, – If ever we needed proof that Ireland is, and always has been, a dysfunctional authoritarian patriarchy, then today’s article about the resignation of the governor of the women’s prison is surely it (Front page, April 26th). What kind of society imprisons women for failing to make credit union loan repayments while rewarding the men who have brought this country to their knees? – Yours, etc,
    <name and address>

    Madam, – I was saddened to hear of the resignation of Kathleen McMahon as governor of the Dóchas Centre in Dublin’s Mountjoy Prison and the worrying concerns she has brought to light.

    I have been studying in London for the past six months and one of my courses, concerned with prisons, has shown statistical evidence from the UK that should give pause to managers intent on dismantling a system with a strong rehabilitative focus.

    The Corsten Report, an extensive study of women’s prisons in the UK, showed the majority of women were serving short-term sentences for minor offences, however nearly two-thirds were re-convicted within two years. The majority were poor, one-fifth were foreign nationals, two-thirds had a drug problem, two-thirds had mental health issues and a third had suffered sexual abuse.

    Out of the women who had dependent children when sentenced, only 5 per cent of those children stayed in the family home. While male prisoners with children more often have a partner to hold the home together, the same is not the case for a majority of women. Prison is a deeply destabilising place, but particularly so for women. If the approach and culture of the Dóchas Centre is changed from a rehabilitative to a punitive system, the possibility for many extremely vulnerable women to make a new start and not re-offend will be seriously diminished. It seems there may already have been a great loss in the resignation of Ms McMahon. – Yours, etc,
    <name and address>.
    This seems to merge a lot of issues together. If people want to not send people who commit minor offences to prison, that is fair enough but why only say this about women. As I recall, it was even conceded on this thread that women were less likely to be sent to jail for minor offences. It's easy to get confused by the figures - a bigger percentage of women in prison might be in there for minor offences but that's not the same as the total number of women in for "minor offences" being more than the figure for men (because the
    total number of men in jail is much bigger).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Its weird when you look at it that somehow punishments for men and women in the same institution conditions are so different.

    Even the name The Dochas Centre sounds like a spiritual retreat -some kind of convent.

    My head hurts when I try to get my head around the logic and theory of justice for women. Its very like the criminals are writting the rules on how they are held and gullable academics are acting on it.

    On the resignation letter -the someone could get hurt tone -well its a prison with dangerous inmates.

    I mean its a bit of a laugh isn't it that these ideas are bought into by otherwise intelligent people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    Its weird when you look at it that somehow punishments for men and women in the same institution conditions are so different.

    Even the name The Dochas Centre sounds like a spiritual retreat -some kind of convent.

    My head hurts when I try to get my head around the logic and theory of justice for women. Its very like the criminals are writting the rules on how they are held and gullable academics are acting on it.

    On the resignation letter -the someone could get hurt tone -well its a prison with dangerous inmates.

    I mean its a bit of a laugh isn't it that these ideas are bought into by otherwise intelligent people.
    Good points.

    Don't know if you say RTE's Six One on this story (26th April)http://www.rte.ie/news/6news/:
    Governor of women's prison leaves role
    Sharon Tobin reports that Kathleen McMahon has said she has a number of problems with the way the Dóchas Centre is being run

    Eibhlin Byrne, Dóchas Centre Visiting Committee Chairperson, says rooms built for rehabilitation purposes are being used for accommodation

    The Irish Penal Reform Trust last year supposedly made some sort of submission on women's offenders.

    Talking about the prison, Eibhlin Byrne says it's not as bad as some regimes/similar - I think to myself finally they are going to point out that the men have it worse but no - she goes on to say there are worse in the US.

    They make a huge fuss about people having to share cells in the Women's prison but men have to do the same in the men's prison and there is more than two in the cell some of the time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    If i ever get in trouble I want to be a woman............:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I dont know if anyone saw this in the Herald


    http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/sinead-ryan/sinead-ryan-one-raped-a-woman-one-killed-his-partner-both-will-be-out-in-less-than-six-years-not-a-good-day-in-our-courts-2153957.html

    One killing and one rape of women and the guys are out in less than 6 years. I dont know about others but its not a keeping score thing but I feel weird about these sentences.A bit on the light side.

    One point that the Governor of Dochas did say was that you have inmates in for "crimes" like non payment of debts like car loans and credit cards using places.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    I dont know if anyone saw this in the Herald


    http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/sinead-ryan/sinead-ryan-one-raped-a-woman-one-killed-his-partner-both-will-be-out-in-less-than-six-years-not-a-good-day-in-our-courts-2153957.html

    One killing and one rape of women and the guys are out in less than 6 years. I dont know about others but its not a keeping score thing but I feel weird about these sentences.A bit on the light side.
    Technically, the rape sentence is an eight year sentence but with good behaviour he'll be out in six.

    While it could be longer, an eight year sentence is not nothing in the Irish context.
    There is a clear signal with both these sentences that they shouldn't have done what they did.

    I don't think there was a clear signal in the two women in this thread where they got suspended sentences for killing a man. It's a very mixed message.


    The death case is a manslaughter case between lovers who "had spent the afternoon of December 17, 2008 together drinking and smoking heroin."
    http://www.herald.ie/national-news/im-evil-what-killer-who-stabbed-lover-six-times-in-the-back-told-999-operator-2153941.html
    In his subsequent interviews with gardai, Butcher described a "violent struggle" after a row broke out over money for drugs.

    He said Rebecca snatched up a bread knife and came towards him threatening to cut off his balls.

    Butcher said he had pressed her up against the wall, and that's when the knife must have "went in".

    "I'm sorry it happened, I loved the girl," he told gardai.

    In handing down the sentence, Mr Justice George Birmingham said the two had lived a "chaotic lifestyle" together.

    He said the killing was "desperate and serious" and that there were a number of aggravating factors he had to consider, including the extent of the violence, the six stab wounds and the use of a bread knife.

    He said the killing was made all the more tragic by the fact that it happened when Butcher seemed to be getting his life back on track, taking part in the resettlement programme for homeless men.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I genuinely feel the sentences were too lenient and thats on a human level -its not a competition -if a woman had killed her partner over money and drugs I would feel the same. An indiscriminate rape.

    These guys should get 20-30 years.

    The Governor Kathleen McMahon who resigned mentioned women imprisoned for non violent minor crimes in with the likes of the scissors sisters who are violent offenders (though she did not mention them specifically).

    So if you need to incarcerate ordinary women criminals there are plenty of unused former boarding schools etc that could be adapted for open prison use for a different category of women prisoners-which may not be perfect but reasonanble -where the aim is to deprive them of liberty and rehabilitate.

    We live in a fairly tabloid society when we cant decide whats right or wrong. Its either a famine or a feast.



    Thats what does my head in about lots of these debates.


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Benjamin Kind Tonsil


    CDfm wrote: »
    I dont know if anyone saw this in the Herald


    http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/sinead-ryan/sinead-ryan-one-raped-a-woman-one-killed-his-partner-both-will-be-out-in-less-than-six-years-not-a-good-day-in-our-courts-2153957.html

    One killing and one rape of women and the guys are out in less than 6 years. I dont know about others but its not a keeping score thing but I feel weird about these sentences.A bit on the light side.

    One point that the Governor of Dochas did say was that you have inmates in for "crimes" like non payment of debts like car loans and credit cards using places.
    There was an opinion piece in the irish times either yesterday or monday detailing the conditions, and they were appalling. Talking about rats and lice everywhere, sleeping in the showers, all sorts of carryon. I can't find the article though, hard to find previous ones on their website :confused:
    I don't know about men's conditions but I don't think it's fair to say on this thread women have it easy in prison. imagine those conditions when you just couldn't afford to repay a debt.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    bluewolf wrote: »
    There was an opinion piece in the irish times either yesterday or monday detailing the conditions, and they were appalling. Talking about rats and lice everywhere, sleeping in the showers, all sorts of carryon. I can't find the article though, hard to find previous ones on their website :confused:
    I don't know about men's conditions but I don't think it's fair to say on this thread women have it easy in prison. imagine those conditions when you just couldn't afford to repay a debt.

    Are you sure thats not the male wing of the prison you are talking about.

    I had to reread some of the articles to make sense of them and on the rereading I realised that some of the points that Governor Kathleen MacMahon made were good ones and were lost in the reportage.

    A person jailed for a minor offense should be able to be segregated away from a violent prisoner.We are appalled when a guy gets injured or killed in these circumstances so should not want it to happen to any prisoner male or female.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    I genuinely feel the sentences were too lenient and thats on a human level -its not a competition -if a woman had killed her partner over money and drugs I would feel the same. An indiscriminate rape.
    Did you see that she went for him with a knife in the fight? That is a mitigating factor in my mind.

    I can understand people want longer sentences.

    But the sentence is nothing like a suspended sentence for killing somebody which, as I say, is not a very clear signal that the person did something they shouldn’t have done.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    A person jailed for a minor offense should be able to be segregated away from a violent prisoner.We are appalled when a guy gets injured or killed in these circumstances so should not want it to happen to any prisoner male or female.
    I've no problem with this but the reportage gives the impression that this is only a problem for women prisoners.


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Benjamin Kind Tonsil


    CDfm wrote: »
    Are you sure thats not the male wing of the prison you are talking about.
    Yes it was an opinion piece on the womens wing. I really can't find it though :( There are some other articles making reference to the conditions as well I think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭iptba


    bluewolf wrote: »
    There was an opinion piece in the irish times either yesterday or monday detailing the conditions, and they were appalling. Talking about rats and lice everywhere, sleeping in the showers, all sorts of carryon. I can't find the article though, hard to find previous ones on their website :confused:
    I don't know about men's conditions but I don't think it's fair to say on this thread women have it easy in prison. imagine those conditions when you just couldn't afford to repay a debt.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0426/1224269092789.html

    I have read quite a lot of the coverage and the complaints on RTE news. I never saw any suggestion that this was the complaint about the women’s prison.

    Mountjoy Prison is a Victorian prison that is 160 years old this year. It is totally run down, unsuitable for present needs and overcrowded.

    - the Dochas Centre was built in the late-1990s.
    Prisoners in overcrowded cells sleeping on floors infested with cockroaches, mice, ants and other assorted vermin. Others sleeping in shower areas, reception areas and other unsuitable areas;

    Prisoners forced to perform daily bodily functions in their cells in front of cell mates, and “slopping out” when cell doors are reopened;

    Prisoners having to eat all their meals in the same confined cell area where they sleep and perform their bodily functions;

    23-hour lockup for those on protection, with just one hour of possible association/recreation.
    This doesn't sound like any of the complaints about the women's prison.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Yes it was an opinion piece on the womens wing. I really can't find it though :( There are some other articles making reference to it as there was a committee visiting it recently.

    Well if you come across it post a link. I found the coverage confusing.

    @ipta 2 wrongs dont make a right. If Governor MacMahon thinks some women should be housed seperately for their safety or the safety of others then she should be listened to and it should be factored into the prison building programme and not ignored.

    I dont want to see anyone woman having to sleep with rats or cockroches because a man does it and I dont want to see a woman killed by a violent woman either.


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Benjamin Kind Tonsil


    I finally found it as well and re-read it. Yes it doens't sound liek the womens prison - I must have muddled the two :o Sorry!
    In that case let me express my disgust at the conditions the men have !!!


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