Cork - Waterford Rail Link

Son of Stupido

With the new rail v's road spending ratio to be imposed by the government, what do people think of this project?

The Cork to Middleton line has been re-opened. The line to Youghal will probably re-open in the future as part of the Cork subburban rail project.

A 20km new line could be built to connect to the old Dungarvan - Waterford line (substantially still intact). The red Iron bridge could be fixed and connect into Waterford North Station.

The result would be a direct 100km line from Cork to Waterford, which could offer 1 hour services.

Is this a project worth considering in the context of improving rail transport in this country?

thoughts?

mayordenis

Oh god I would kill to have this, quite literally I would kill, just tell me who.

L1011

Lets see how well (or more likely not) the Galway-Limerick services do first before planning other inter-regional city link-ups. Its not like Waterford-Limerick gets much traffic at the moment...

The missing section of the bridge is sitting on CIE property somewhere around Waterford city, so thats probably the most trivial bit.

trishw78

The Red Iron Bridge has some structural issues that need to be dealth with and the Suir Valley railway is using part of that track. There is a section of the track out near Kilmacthomas that is being converted to some sort of 'nature' rail walk like you find in the UK.

Judgement Day

Son of Stupido wrote: »

With the new rail v's road spending ratio to be imposed by the government, what do people think of this project?

The Cork to Middleton line has been re-opened. The line to Youghal will probably re-open in the future as part of the Cork subburban rail project.

A 20km new line could be built to connect to the old Dungarvan - Waterford line (substantially still intact). The red Iron bridge could be fixed and connect into Waterford North Station.

The result would be a direct 100km line from Cork to Waterford, which could offer 1 hour services.

Is this a project worth considering in the context of improving rail transport in this country?

thoughts?

Rubbish - one hour would just about bring you from Cork to Youghal. Who would use the service? What's wrong with buses?

Irish Railway News website this way...http://www.irishrailwaynews.com/

dowlingm

The Youghal-Dungarvan section has never existed to my knowledge (the previous railway went through Fermoy and Mallow along the Blackwater Valley). What route would you have it take, taking into account the present location of Youghal station and the topography of both Youghal town and the western approach to Dungarvan, both of which I for one am fairly familiar with by numerous trips along N25. I'm not saying this to crap all over the idea, I like it, but let's not pretend the geographic challenges are small ones.

Let's start small and ask: what should be the point at which an extension east of Midleton should happen (about 15 track miles, I don't have a railway atlas to confirm that). IE should be required to produce a plan for this to show a trigger ridership level at which an extension would happen, and Midleton Urban Council should be surveying those using the carpark to assist IE in identifying commuters better served by easterly station(s) since displacing car commuters from Midleton would help reduce congestion in the station vicinity. From what I understand business on the current service is brisk (although this may be because of people under the illusion that it's a free service).

The station location is a major problem as the current location on the Strand is ideal for Youghal itself but not an eastern extension and both parking and parking access congestion could be big issues. It's not convenient to the bypass but that's not a showstopper as people coming in from Ardmore could continue to a P&R/passing loop at Killeagh rather than go through the town. I would certainly advocate that train storage in Youghal be part of it to allow late service and early starts rather than deadheading all the way to/from Kent.

As for Waterford, I can't see the route via Kilmeaden being recreated when Waterford doesn't seem to have enough influence to get proper service on two out of the three lines that are actually open.

Son of Stupido

yes, the Youghal dungarvan section would be a new build of about 20km, with a reuse of the old lines from cork to youghal and dungarvan to waterford.

If the government are looking for rail projects to spend their money on, personally I think this is one to consider. Not only does it link two major cities, but it also connects to some commuter towns on the way.

There would be a significant bit of engineering involved, esp to cross the river at youghal.

The suir river valley railway could relocate to the new ross line or tramore line.

I think this project would attract far more customers than the WRC.

Zebra3

Son of Stupido wrote: »

I think this project would attract far more customers than the WRC.

That's not saying much.

Zoney

I'd say investing in Dublin-Waterford would take precedence in local terms (obviously there are also various projects around the country of greater importance). As regards Cork, well, an extension to Youghal would come first - but as it is the Midleton link is barely up an running any length of time. Plus it's not exactly going to be seaside traffic like of old, and is there much commuting across that distance?

What about Clonmel? It's quite large - is there much traffic between there and Waterford? If so focussing the existing Limerick-Waterford line on commuter services from Clonmel to Waterford might make sense (and the N24 isn't likely to see investment anytime soon).

That's just in the area of Cork/Waterford. There are various other rail projects I would draw attention to also, but that would be going off-topic a bit. Also there are the more major projects like speeding up Cork-Dublin, but it's probably more likely we would see smaller investments (and more likely than having none as well, especially if things do pick up in a couple of years time).

mike65

Whoever thought this could be a goer clearly knows nothing about the topography of land between Dungarvan and Yougal. Its very hilly and undulating, there is simply no way to run a line short of moving countless millions of tonnes of rock and earth. It would never pay for itself and the Waterford-Dunargavn line would need complete re-engineering - at least two bridges would need rebuilding.

hi5

mike65 wrote: »

Whoever thought this could be a goer clearly knows nothing about the topography of land between Dungarvan and Yougal. Its very hilly and undulating, there is simply no way to run a line short of moving countless millions of tonnes of rock and earth. It would never pay for itself and the Waterford-Dunargavn line would need complete re-engineering - at least two bridges would need rebuilding.

Which is probably the reason they didnt go that way in the first place.

Some interesting maps here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_Ireland

Son of Stupido

hi5 wrote: »

Which is probably the reason they didnt go that way in the first place.

In 1878......

engineering and construction have progressed a little in the interveening 140 years, as have demographics and travel

mike65

It would be cheaper to fly everyone from Cork to Waterford or vise-versa

Bards

Zoney wrote: »

I'd say investing in Dublin-Waterford would take precedence in local terms (obviously there are also various projects around the country of greater importance). As regards Cork, well, an extension to Youghal would come first - but as it is the Midleton link is barely up an running any length of time. Plus it's not exactly going to be seaside traffic like of old, and is there much commuting across that distance?

What about Clonmel? It's quite large - is there much traffic between there and Waterford? If so focussing the existing Limerick-Waterford line on commuter services from Clonmel to Waterford might make sense (and the N24 isn't likely to see investment anytime soon).

That's just in the area of Cork/Waterford. There are various other rail projects I would draw attention to also, but that would be going off-topic a bit. Also there are the more major projects like speeding up Cork-Dublin, but it's probably more likely we would see smaller investments (and more likely than having none as well, especially if things do pick up in a couple of years time).

Exactly, they would be better concetrating on the commuter value rail has over Cars especially coupled with Park & Ride.

Clonmel, Carrick-on-Suir, New-Ross to Waterford

They need to have a better timetable to suit commuters and shoppers, more frequent, don't arrive into waterford 10 minutes after the Dublin train has left etc., before embarking on long distance travel by rail which will not lead to a better service than the motorised transport, due to demographics.

Son of Stupido

The purpose of this discussion was of the merits of the proposed project.

Of course there would be more pressing things to concentrate (i.e. New Ross - Waterford services refd above).

This proposal is a capital project, one which should not be expected to make a return on (as is the case with 99% of roads). It should be seen in the context of the entire network across the country, i.e linking the 3rd most populous city with the 5th.

The WRC, whatever about the arguements of who will use it, connects Galway and Limerick. Next step should be to connect (improve) with Cork.

I think services from the major cities should be a goal, and we are inching towards this.

In the event of roads money being pumped into major rail projects (which is what is going to happen if you believe the greens) I think this is a project worthy of at least consideration.

dowlingm

You say that engineering has come a long way - in rail terms it really hasn't. Can I take it you have travelled on either or both of the Youghal bypass and the Dungarvan N25 western approach? The grades are substantial, especially in Dungarvan. Wheel-rail ability to negotiate grades really haven't come on all that much since the steam age, nowhere near what cars and buses can take on.

When you look at the landscape of passenger transportation needs in Ireland, sure Cork-Waterford by rail would be great to have - but it would require heroic engineering when the country badly needs really boring engineering (Pace-Navan, >90mph on the Belfast route, bypass tracks on the North Dublin commuter) and can't get it.

If you're looking for an Irish megaproject to benefit rail users, consider how to reroute IE away from Bray Head, or even drain the Limerick-Athenry hinterland.

Victor

Of course, there is an existing railway between Cork and Waterford. Instead of spending perhaps €500-750 million your suggestion, why not upgrade Limerick Junction-Waterford and Waterford-Cherryville Junction (Kildare) and provide decent rolling stock, which would better connect Waterford to pretty much everywhere. Sure it won't serve Youghal or Dungarvan, but its not as if they have material population weights anyway. Clonmel and Carrick-on Suir would benefit much more.

liogairmhordain

Perhap when the time comes for a new N25 road bridge to be built over the Blackwater (the existing Youghal Bridge is nearly 50 years old and wont last forever) consideration should be given to the feasibility/desirability of running a railway line over the Blackwater as part of the same scheme??

Judgement Day

liogairmhordain wrote: »

Perhap when the time comes for a new N25 road bridge to be built over the Blackwater (the existing Youghal Bridge is nearly 50 years old and wont last forever) consideration should be given to the feasibility/desirability of running a railway line over the Blackwater as part of the same scheme??

Perhaps consideration should also be given to establishing an Irish Space Centre at Sally Perks Funfair too?

Son of Stupido

A Cork Waterford link via limerick junction wouldn't work, too much of a diversion, and would take too long.

A 100km link could see 1 hours services, and make it attractive. Also it would be a hit with the tourists.

Judgement Day

Son of Stupido wrote: »

A Cork Waterford link via limerick junction wouldn't work, too much of a diversion, and would take too long.

A 100km link could see 1 hours services, and make it attractive. Also it would be a hit with the tourists.

What tourists, and coming from where? CIE and the rail operators in the UK have managed to deter foot passengers so successfully that the ferries hardly carry any at all. Even when this situation eventually changes, due to the disappearance of cheap air travel, such a line will never be needed or built.

Roryhy

Judgement Day wrote: »

What tourists, and coming from where? CIE and the rail operators in the UK have managed to deter foot passengers so successfully that the ferries hardly carry any at all. Even when this situation eventually changes, due to the disappearance of cheap air travel, such a line will never be needed or built.

The disappearance of cheap air travel? Its here to stay, what would cause you to make such a statement? I take it you are referring to high oil prices, these will hit ferry travel every bit as hard as air travel.

Judgement Day

Roryhy wrote: »

The disappearance of cheap air travel? Its here to stay, what would cause you to make such a statement? I take it you are referring to high oil prices, these will hit ferry travel every bit as hard as air travel.

Cheap air travel will eventually have to end and domestic tourism (within the British Isles) will return and that is where the ferries will once again come into their own. I don't have an exact date for when sanity is going to sink in regarding cheap air travel but it will. What do you think the planes are going to fly once demand exceeds supply? I love your optimism when you state that cheap air travel is here to stay - how do figure that?

L1011

Roryhy wrote: »

I take it you are referring to high oil prices, these will hit ferry travel every bit as hard as air travel.

Fast cats, yes. Cruise ferries, nowhere near as much as air.

Even when that does happen, people are unlikely to take the multi-hour Wales->Rosslare or Wales->Cork (should it survive) routes as foot passengers due to the sheer time involved. Any increase in foot passenger traffic due to oil prices is going to be on cruise ferries on Holyhead->Dublin/DL should that ever restart.

Roryhy

There are replacements for jet fuel already developed, that along with airplane efficiency improvements will keep planes in the air. Ferries are too slow and only operate to coasts, peoples lives are getting faster and faster, ferries are for freight, planes are for people.

Judgement Day

Roryhy wrote: »

There are replacements for jet fuel already developed, that along with airplane efficiency improvements will keep planes in the air. Ferries are too slow and only operate to coasts, peoples lives are getting faster and faster, ferries are for freight, planes are for people.

While not wishing to go on, it seems to have escaped your attention that while people may be living faster and faster lives, since the demise of Concorde they have been travelling slower for the first time in the evolution of powered transport - a portent of things to come?

L1011

Roryhy wrote: »

There are replacements for jet fuel already developed, that along with airplane efficiency improvements will keep planes in the air. Ferries are too slow and only operate to coasts, peoples lives are getting faster and faster, ferries are for freight, planes are for people.

Modern security plus baggage handling for 500-people planes (as well as JD's point) means that air travel is slower than ever before.

Roryhy

Points taken but i still don't see a competitive alternative. We'll have to agree to disagree:D

hi5

Judgement Day wrote: »

While not wishing to go on, it seems to have escaped your attention that while people may be living faster and faster lives since the demise of Concorde they have been travelling slower for the first time in the evolution of powered transport - a portent of things to come?

A great example of a sentence to show the importance of punctuation:D.

Judgement Day

hi5 wrote: »

A great example of a sentence to show the importance of punctuation:D.

You have little to amuse you. There must be hundreds of thousands of posts on boards and I'm sure it will keep you busy until eternity nitpicking over grammar and other typos as you examine them all. How about contributing to the discussion instead of going off topic?

Son of Stupido

Cork - Waterford via Limerick Junction = c.190km
Cork - Waterford via Mallow = c.150Km
Cork - Waterford via Youghal = c.100km

Judgement Day

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Cork - Waterford via Limerick Junction = c.190km
Cork - Waterford via Mallow = c.150Km
Cork - Waterford via Youghal = c.100km

I take it your distances on estimated just by drawing straight lines on maps? This takes no account of the topography of the landscape and the difficulty in constructing a line from Youghal to Waterford. Who would use it apart from the RPSI/ITG and the occasional GAA special?

mike65

Son of Stupido are you at all familair with the route between Dungarvan and Youghal?

Son of Stupido

get out your measuring tape guys!

mike65

Fancy answering the question? We'd hate to think you a fool.

Son of Stupido

Son of Stupido wrote: »

yes, the Youghal dungarvan section would be a new build of about 20km, with a reuse of the old lines from cork to youghal and dungarvan to waterford.

There would be a significant bit of engineering involved, esp to cross the river at youghal.

see above

mike65

That doesn't answer any question I put.

This thread needs a map showing elevation between Dungarvan and Youghal so here is one. If you can plot a course for a railway (max gradient of about 1/100) you are a better man than I.

nordydan

mike65 wrote: »

That doesn't answer any question I put.

This thread needs a map showing elevation between Dungarvan and Youghal so here is one. If you can plot a course for a railway (max gradient of about 1/100) you are a better man than I.

Tunnel? :rolleyes:

Victor

Mike, you are really showing your age with that map - it still has the old bridge at Youghal.

nordydan wrote: »

Tunnel? :rolleyes:

€100m+ per km?

Son of Stupido

you have obviously never seen how they built the motorways in Sicily!

You don't need a big tunnel. Viaduct along the valley would do it.

mike65

Victor wrote: »

Mike, you are really showing your age with that map - it still has the old bridge at Youghal. €100m+ per km?

I still have several 1963 maps, quite hopeless for in car naviagtion but interesting to browse.

Sully

Moving aside from Youghal idea, are we saying its not financially reasonable to create a track from these two cities? Not talking specific routes but obviously a more direct route then we have at the moment.

Judgement Day

Yes. Any money thus spent would better invested in improving the Limerick Junction/Waterford line which would provide an adequate connection between the two cities. Alternatively, reopening the Mallow/Waterford route would also be a much better option.

Zoney

Son of Stupido wrote: »

you have obviously never seen how they built the motorways in Sicily!

You don't need a big tunnel. Viaduct along the valley would do it.

Of course you could go to whatever lengths are necessary if it was of any importance. It's not!

Besides, I would not look to Southern Italy for best practice in sensible use of government funds.

ForiegnNational

Sorry guys, whilst being a fan of railways, this is a bit of an exercise in futility.

For the cost of building a new line from Dungarvan to Youghal, (even if you were to avoid the tunnel option and take a much more sensible "go round the mountain" option), you could upgrade the existing Cork to Limerick Junction / Limerick Junction to Waterford lines to high speed lines with proper interconnections (we are talking pipe dreams all round here).

But as we all know, neither is going to happen.

Although a great exercise in academic hot air, I think this thread is dead.

Next thread "Why not build a bridge to America" will also be vetoed...

loyatemu

the railways which closed in the 60s were largely the ones that cost the most to run, the slowest, the least direct, and which had the least passengers.

As can be seen with the WRC if you merely reopen an old line without major re-engineering you end up with a sh!t service.

Even ignoring the big issue of linking Youghal to Dungarvan, the original Waterford - Dungarvan stretch was a bad railway:

This 43 mile stretch of railway was the most expensive line to be built in Ireland at the time, as it followed the most difficult route of any railway in the South. It was a very hilly line with a series of sharp curves, a tunnel 418 feet long near Durrow and two viaducts, one at Durrow and the other at Ballyvoyle. It also included a great number of under and over bridges and three road crossings at Dungarvan.

As other have pointed out there is already a railway between these 2 cities (and Waterford is really just a big town) there is no justification in building another one.

Rodfromabroad

Not in Ireland; across the 'water' and just noticed this site for the first time. But for long had an interest in Ireland and its railways.

On Dungarvan to Youghal, the sceptics are probably right, especially given the crash in your economy. Probably other more deserving rail investments. However, if a new Dungarvan-Youghal, as part of a direct Waterford-Cork line was ever seriously considered, I would think that a line proceeding north of Youghal (once the river there was bridged) up the river valley to near Cappoquin (right spelling?) and joining the former Blackwater line, and relaying that to Dungarvan, would be the feasible (certainly far more than going direct between the towns) way to go. Probably by far the most cost-effective.

Then, one could have a (second) direct line, Dublin, Wicklow, Wexford, Waterford, Dungarvan, Youghal, Cork. Seems like it might be a good, competitive idea to me. But, then, I am a foreigner; what do I know? Maybe it still wouldn't be worth the cost.

Victor

Again impractical due to the steep-sided river valley that cuts through a series of ridges, which would mean extra distance, tight curves and lots of tunnel.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.98636,-7.874107&spn=0.039327,0.092697&t=p&z=13

RoundyMooney

Very perceptive post Rod.

I can't find it documented anywhere-but one proposal back in the 19th century was to tunnel under youghal, emerging roughly at the location of the present N25 roadbridge. The line would then run with presumably some considerable engineering work, but not as much as attempting to link Youghal directly to Dungarvan, linking up to the station on the old Dungarvan Mallow line at or near Cappagh (not Cappoquin).

This would have been a somewhat indirect route, but not as much as going directly to Mallow along the old alignment and then on to Cork.

If I had a wishlist-it would be to see the old line reopened to Youghal, (possible), and the Waterford Mallow link reinstated (highly unlikely).

There are many factors working against the latter-the curves and grades on the old line, the inability of IE to run a competitive, cost effective service, or carry out works in an economic manner (the Midleton line, although very well finished-the stations are a joy to behold, was ridiculously expensive, as with the WRC), as evidenced by yet again, Waterford-Rosslare being at death's door, closely followed by Waterford-Limk Jnctn.

An awful shame-many old railways could never be competitive today, but hypothetically speaking, light railcars travelling at high speed could be a very viable option linking towns. Stuff of fantasy, maybe, but imagine an ultralight 2 car set bombing along at 90mph! Of course the rail wouldn't take it, and the present rolling stock is too heavy and slow for such an aspiration, but maybe someday

Rodfromabroad

RoundyMooney,

The curving nature of the route from Dungarvan westwards, including any potential extension down the Blackwater to Youghal, and across the river there to the Cork line, is appreciated. I suppose the only response I would have is that, as has been suggested, the modern earth moving/construction methods of today would certainly make such a line a more viable proposition than in the past.

Again, a great advantage of a joining up of Youghal and Dungarvan would be the realization of a new, through Dublin to Cork route via the coast, that would serve many more sizable cities and towns en route than is served by the present, inland main line. The disclosure that a tunnel under Youghal may have been seriously considered at some point surprises me. I would have thought that a bridge would be the logical and more cost-effective way of crossing the mouth of the Blackwater.

But, to repeat, like most, I think there are other priorities in Ireland more deserving of investment when it comes to reopening/rebuilding rail routes. Belfast-Portadown-Armagh-Monaghan-Clones-Enniskillen-Sligo, is one route that comes to mind, along with a reopened Derry line from that city to Portadown via Omagh.

And Mullingar-Inny Junction-Cavan, then linking up with a Belfast connection at Clones, would be a worthwhile reopening, I think - rail commuter service from Cavan to Dublin, and north to Belfast, as well as a new, more direct Galway-Belfast routing via Inny Junc. And Dublin to Navan and Kells is surely something deserving of priority.

Victor

Rodfromabroad wrote: »

The curving nature of the route from Dungarvan westwards, including any potential extension down the Blackwater to Youghal, and across the river there to the Cork line, is appreciated. I suppose the only response I would have is that, as has been suggested, the modern earth moving/construction methods of today would certainly make such a line a more viable proposition than in the past.

Possibly such equipment makes it more practical, but in no way more financially or operationally viable.

Again, a great advantage of a joining up of Youghal and Dungarvan would be the realization of a new, through Dublin to Cork route via the coast, that would serve many more sizable cities and towns en route than is served by the present, inland main line.

The only towns that would gain would be Youghal and Dungarvan, and presumably there would be a diversion of resources from the traditional inland railway towns. Surely Cahir, Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir, with a bigger combined population are more deserving of a proper railway? How would these Dublin-Waterford-Cork trains deal with the single track and manual level crossings where some gate keepers forget to get up in the morning? Remember you have spent all you money on Youghal-Dungarvan.

The disclosure that a tunnel under Youghal may have been seriously considered at some point surprises me. I would have thought that a bridge would be the logical and more cost-effective way of crossing the mouth of the Blackwater.

He means under the huge hill west of the town. Or would you rather demolish the town?

But, to repeat, like most, I think there are other priorities in Ireland more deserving of investment when it comes to reopening/rebuilding rail routes. Belfast-Portadown-Armagh-Monaghan-Clones-Enniskillen-Sligo, is one route that comes to mind, along with a reopened Derry line from that city to Portadown via Omagh.

And Mullingar-Inny Junction-Cavan, then linking up with a Belfast connection at Clones, would be a worthwhile reopening, I think - rail commuter service from Cavan to Dublin, and north to Belfast, as well as a new, more direct Galway-Belfast routing via Inny Junc. And Dublin to Navan and Kells is surely something deserving of priority.

Fantasy. Why do you think that Galway-Belfast needs a direct route? Few people have any need to make the journey and the money would be better spent improving the existing railways (track relay Belfast-border and extra tracks / passing loops Drogheda-Dublin and Portarlington-Galway) and services (e.g. better frequency, especially Dublin-Belfast).

Think hub and spoke, not direct route. Its how every railway, airline and shipping company in the world works.