Cork - Waterford Rail Link

Judgement Day

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Cork - Waterford via Limerick Junction = c.190km
Cork - Waterford via Mallow = c.150Km
Cork - Waterford via Youghal = c.100km

I take it your distances on estimated just by drawing straight lines on maps? This takes no account of the topography of the landscape and the difficulty in constructing a line from Youghal to Waterford. Who would use it apart from the RPSI/ITG and the occasional GAA special?

mike65

Son of Stupido are you at all familair with the route between Dungarvan and Youghal?

Son of Stupido

get out your measuring tape guys!

mike65

Fancy answering the question? We'd hate to think you a fool.

Son of Stupido

Son of Stupido wrote: »

yes, the Youghal dungarvan section would be a new build of about 20km, with a reuse of the old lines from cork to youghal and dungarvan to waterford.

There would be a significant bit of engineering involved, esp to cross the river at youghal.

see above

mike65

That doesn't answer any question I put.

This thread needs a map showing elevation between Dungarvan and Youghal so here is one. If you can plot a course for a railway (max gradient of about 1/100) you are a better man than I.

nordydan

mike65 wrote: »

That doesn't answer any question I put.

This thread needs a map showing elevation between Dungarvan and Youghal so here is one. If you can plot a course for a railway (max gradient of about 1/100) you are a better man than I.

Tunnel? :rolleyes:

Victor

Mike, you are really showing your age with that map - it still has the old bridge at Youghal.

nordydan wrote: »

Tunnel? :rolleyes:

€100m+ per km?

Son of Stupido

you have obviously never seen how they built the motorways in Sicily!

You don't need a big tunnel. Viaduct along the valley would do it.

mike65

Victor wrote: »

Mike, you are really showing your age with that map - it still has the old bridge at Youghal. €100m+ per km?

I still have several 1963 maps, quite hopeless for in car naviagtion but interesting to browse.

Sully

Moving aside from Youghal idea, are we saying its not financially reasonable to create a track from these two cities? Not talking specific routes but obviously a more direct route then we have at the moment.

Judgement Day

Yes. Any money thus spent would better invested in improving the Limerick Junction/Waterford line which would provide an adequate connection between the two cities. Alternatively, reopening the Mallow/Waterford route would also be a much better option.

Zoney

Son of Stupido wrote: »

you have obviously never seen how they built the motorways in Sicily!

You don't need a big tunnel. Viaduct along the valley would do it.

Of course you could go to whatever lengths are necessary if it was of any importance. It's not!

Besides, I would not look to Southern Italy for best practice in sensible use of government funds.

ForiegnNational

Sorry guys, whilst being a fan of railways, this is a bit of an exercise in futility.

For the cost of building a new line from Dungarvan to Youghal, (even if you were to avoid the tunnel option and take a much more sensible "go round the mountain" option), you could upgrade the existing Cork to Limerick Junction / Limerick Junction to Waterford lines to high speed lines with proper interconnections (we are talking pipe dreams all round here).

But as we all know, neither is going to happen.

Although a great exercise in academic hot air, I think this thread is dead.

Next thread "Why not build a bridge to America" will also be vetoed...

loyatemu

the railways which closed in the 60s were largely the ones that cost the most to run, the slowest, the least direct, and which had the least passengers.

As can be seen with the WRC if you merely reopen an old line without major re-engineering you end up with a sh!t service.

Even ignoring the big issue of linking Youghal to Dungarvan, the original Waterford - Dungarvan stretch was a bad railway:

This 43 mile stretch of railway was the most expensive line to be built in Ireland at the time, as it followed the most difficult route of any railway in the South. It was a very hilly line with a series of sharp curves, a tunnel 418 feet long near Durrow and two viaducts, one at Durrow and the other at Ballyvoyle. It also included a great number of under and over bridges and three road crossings at Dungarvan.

As other have pointed out there is already a railway between these 2 cities (and Waterford is really just a big town) there is no justification in building another one.

Rodfromabroad

Not in Ireland; across the 'water' and just noticed this site for the first time. But for long had an interest in Ireland and its railways.

On Dungarvan to Youghal, the sceptics are probably right, especially given the crash in your economy. Probably other more deserving rail investments. However, if a new Dungarvan-Youghal, as part of a direct Waterford-Cork line was ever seriously considered, I would think that a line proceeding north of Youghal (once the river there was bridged) up the river valley to near Cappoquin (right spelling?) and joining the former Blackwater line, and relaying that to Dungarvan, would be the feasible (certainly far more than going direct between the towns) way to go. Probably by far the most cost-effective.

Then, one could have a (second) direct line, Dublin, Wicklow, Wexford, Waterford, Dungarvan, Youghal, Cork. Seems like it might be a good, competitive idea to me. But, then, I am a foreigner; what do I know? Maybe it still wouldn't be worth the cost.

Victor

Again impractical due to the steep-sided river valley that cuts through a series of ridges, which would mean extra distance, tight curves and lots of tunnel.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.98636,-7.874107&spn=0.039327,0.092697&t=p&z=13

RoundyMooney

Very perceptive post Rod.

I can't find it documented anywhere-but one proposal back in the 19th century was to tunnel under youghal, emerging roughly at the location of the present N25 roadbridge. The line would then run with presumably some considerable engineering work, but not as much as attempting to link Youghal directly to Dungarvan, linking up to the station on the old Dungarvan Mallow line at or near Cappagh (not Cappoquin).

This would have been a somewhat indirect route, but not as much as going directly to Mallow along the old alignment and then on to Cork.

If I had a wishlist-it would be to see the old line reopened to Youghal, (possible), and the Waterford Mallow link reinstated (highly unlikely).

There are many factors working against the latter-the curves and grades on the old line, the inability of IE to run a competitive, cost effective service, or carry out works in an economic manner (the Midleton line, although very well finished-the stations are a joy to behold, was ridiculously expensive, as with the WRC), as evidenced by yet again, Waterford-Rosslare being at death's door, closely followed by Waterford-Limk Jnctn.

An awful shame-many old railways could never be competitive today, but hypothetically speaking, light railcars travelling at high speed could be a very viable option linking towns. Stuff of fantasy, maybe, but imagine an ultralight 2 car set bombing along at 90mph! Of course the rail wouldn't take it, and the present rolling stock is too heavy and slow for such an aspiration, but maybe someday

Rodfromabroad

RoundyMooney,

The curving nature of the route from Dungarvan westwards, including any potential extension down the Blackwater to Youghal, and across the river there to the Cork line, is appreciated. I suppose the only response I would have is that, as has been suggested, the modern earth moving/construction methods of today would certainly make such a line a more viable proposition than in the past.

Again, a great advantage of a joining up of Youghal and Dungarvan would be the realization of a new, through Dublin to Cork route via the coast, that would serve many more sizable cities and towns en route than is served by the present, inland main line. The disclosure that a tunnel under Youghal may have been seriously considered at some point surprises me. I would have thought that a bridge would be the logical and more cost-effective way of crossing the mouth of the Blackwater.

But, to repeat, like most, I think there are other priorities in Ireland more deserving of investment when it comes to reopening/rebuilding rail routes. Belfast-Portadown-Armagh-Monaghan-Clones-Enniskillen-Sligo, is one route that comes to mind, along with a reopened Derry line from that city to Portadown via Omagh.

And Mullingar-Inny Junction-Cavan, then linking up with a Belfast connection at Clones, would be a worthwhile reopening, I think - rail commuter service from Cavan to Dublin, and north to Belfast, as well as a new, more direct Galway-Belfast routing via Inny Junc. And Dublin to Navan and Kells is surely something deserving of priority.

Victor

Rodfromabroad wrote: »

The curving nature of the route from Dungarvan westwards, including any potential extension down the Blackwater to Youghal, and across the river there to the Cork line, is appreciated. I suppose the only response I would have is that, as has been suggested, the modern earth moving/construction methods of today would certainly make such a line a more viable proposition than in the past.

Possibly such equipment makes it more practical, but in no way more financially or operationally viable.

Again, a great advantage of a joining up of Youghal and Dungarvan would be the realization of a new, through Dublin to Cork route via the coast, that would serve many more sizable cities and towns en route than is served by the present, inland main line.

The only towns that would gain would be Youghal and Dungarvan, and presumably there would be a diversion of resources from the traditional inland railway towns. Surely Cahir, Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir, with a bigger combined population are more deserving of a proper railway? How would these Dublin-Waterford-Cork trains deal with the single track and manual level crossings where some gate keepers forget to get up in the morning? Remember you have spent all you money on Youghal-Dungarvan.

The disclosure that a tunnel under Youghal may have been seriously considered at some point surprises me. I would have thought that a bridge would be the logical and more cost-effective way of crossing the mouth of the Blackwater.

He means under the huge hill west of the town. Or would you rather demolish the town?

But, to repeat, like most, I think there are other priorities in Ireland more deserving of investment when it comes to reopening/rebuilding rail routes. Belfast-Portadown-Armagh-Monaghan-Clones-Enniskillen-Sligo, is one route that comes to mind, along with a reopened Derry line from that city to Portadown via Omagh.

And Mullingar-Inny Junction-Cavan, then linking up with a Belfast connection at Clones, would be a worthwhile reopening, I think - rail commuter service from Cavan to Dublin, and north to Belfast, as well as a new, more direct Galway-Belfast routing via Inny Junc. And Dublin to Navan and Kells is surely something deserving of priority.

Fantasy. Why do you think that Galway-Belfast needs a direct route? Few people have any need to make the journey and the money would be better spent improving the existing railways (track relay Belfast-border and extra tracks / passing loops Drogheda-Dublin and Portarlington-Galway) and services (e.g. better frequency, especially Dublin-Belfast).

Think hub and spoke, not direct route. Its how every railway, airline and shipping company in the world works.

dowlingm

Given the impending attempts to close Rosslare-Limerick Junction and Ballybrophy-Limerick, this discussion is surreal.

RoundyMooney

I read it as hypothetical, no harm in that.

Deise Tom

Son of Stupido wrote: »

With the new rail v's road spending ratio to be imposed by the government, what do people think of this project?

The Cork to Middleton line has been re-opened. The line to Youghal will probably re-open in the future as part of the Cork subburban rail project.

A 20km new line could be built to connect to the old Dungarvan - Waterford line (substantially still intact). The red Iron bridge could be fixed and connect into Waterford North Station.

The result would be a direct 100km line from Cork to Waterford, which could offer 1 hour services.

Is this a project worth considering in the context of improving rail transport in this country?

thoughts?

It would be a massive undertaking as there never was a Youghal to Dungarvan line. Am i right in saying that a train needs to travel of fairly level terrain. If this is correct then Dungarvan to Youghal is out. Imagine trying to climb up the sweep outside Dungarvan.

Deise Tom

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Cork - Waterford via Limerick Junction = c.190km
Cork - Waterford via Mallow = c.150Km
Cork - Waterford via Youghal = c.100km

Is that as the crow flies, because for a train the distances would be much longer. Well not MUCH but some bit.

Deise Tom

Son of Stupido wrote: »

see above

Think there you need to get to know the lie of the lad in County Waterford before you give out such details. Maybe you can show on a map a route that could be taken for a Dungarvan to Youghal line.

Deise Tom

mike65 wrote: »

I still have several 1963 maps, quite hopeless for in car naviagtion but interesting to browse.

Going off topic, the older maps are often the best. There is so much information to be found in them.

Deise Tom

Sully wrote: »

Moving aside from Youghal idea, are we saying its not financially reasonable to create a track from these two cities? Not talking specific routes but obviously a more direct route then we have at the moment.

ya, it is not financially reasonable to open a line between Waterford and Cork going through Dungarvan and Youghal, but maybe it could be done via the orgional route through Cappoquin and Lismore etc.

dowlingm

Deise Tom wrote: »

It would be a massive undertaking as there never was a Youghal to Dungarvan line. Am i right in saying that a train needs to travel of fairly level terrain. If this is correct then Dungarvan to Youghal is out. Imagine trying to climb up the sweep outside Dungarvan.

Rail service usually involves max grades of 1-2 foot change in every 100 feet travelled.

The biggest stumbling block to a Youghal-Waterford service is at the very beginning - the fact that the station is at one end of the town and the options for getting to the far side of the river are all pricey. There's a reason the original ran through the Blackwater valley and not the coast.

Edit: Google Maps Terrain View gives a good idea of what's involved.

RoundyMooney

I think someone posted on here, that a business entity still holds the title to the original alignment! As in, a throwback to what used to be a company which also owns or owned both Rosslare and Fishguard ports.

No doubt someone here will be able to pad this out far better than I have.

Youghal and Dungarvan will never see a link, the end will not justify the means, however if the original Waterford Mallow line could be opened on an economic basis (again highly unlikely, to say the least) there might be some chance of a viable service.

That said, Limk Jnctn-Waterford is struggling at present, due to poor providance. If that can't be made to pay first, as with the WRC, there is no hope of further openings outside the Dublin hinterland, where passenger numbers are higher.

Just my opinion, of course.

Deise Tom

dowlingm wrote: »

Rail service usually involves max grades of 1-2 foot change in every 100 feet travelled.

The biggest stumbling block to a Youghal-Waterford service is at the very beginning - the fact that the station is at one end of the town and the options for getting to the far side of the river are all pricey. There's a reason the original ran through the Blackwater valley and not the coast.

Edit: Google Maps Terrain View gives a good idea of what's involved.

Living in the area (of sorts0, i know where you are coming from and you are 100 percent correct in what you say. Dungarvan to Youghal is really a non runner.