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Cork - Waterford Rail Link

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,349 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Given the impending attempts to close Rosslare-Limerick Junction and Ballybrophy-Limerick, this discussion is surreal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭RoundyMooney


    I read it as hypothetical, no harm in that.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    With the new rail v's road spending ratio to be imposed by the government, what do people think of this project?

    The Cork to Middleton line has been re-opened. The line to Youghal will probably re-open in the future as part of the Cork subburban rail project.

    A 20km new line could be built to connect to the old Dungarvan - Waterford line (substantially still intact). The red Iron bridge could be fixed and connect into Waterford North Station.

    The result would be a direct 100km line from Cork to Waterford, which could offer 1 hour services.

    Is this a project worth considering in the context of improving rail transport in this country?

    thoughts?


    It would be a massive undertaking as there never was a Youghal to Dungarvan line. Am i right in saying that a train needs to travel of fairly level terrain. If this is correct then Dungarvan to Youghal is out. Imagine trying to climb up the sweep outside Dungarvan.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    Cork - Waterford via Limerick Junction = c.190km
    Cork - Waterford via Mallow = c.150Km
    Cork - Waterford via Youghal = c.100km


    Is that as the crow flies, because for a train the distances would be much longer. Well not MUCH but some bit.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    see above


    Think there you need to get to know the lie of the lad in County Waterford before you give out such details. Maybe you can show on a map a route that could be taken for a Dungarvan to Youghal line.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    mike65 wrote: »
    I still have several 1963 maps, quite hopeless for in car naviagtion but interesting to browse.


    Going off topic, the older maps are often the best. There is so much information to be found in them.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    Sully wrote: »
    Moving aside from Youghal idea, are we saying its not financially reasonable to create a track from these two cities? Not talking specific routes but obviously a more direct route then we have at the moment.


    ya, it is not financially reasonable to open a line between Waterford and Cork going through Dungarvan and Youghal, but maybe it could be done via the orgional route through Cappoquin and Lismore etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,349 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Deise Tom wrote: »
    It would be a massive undertaking as there never was a Youghal to Dungarvan line. Am i right in saying that a train needs to travel of fairly level terrain. If this is correct then Dungarvan to Youghal is out. Imagine trying to climb up the sweep outside Dungarvan.
    Rail service usually involves max grades of 1-2 foot change in every 100 feet travelled.

    The biggest stumbling block to a Youghal-Waterford service is at the very beginning - the fact that the station is at one end of the town and the options for getting to the far side of the river are all pricey. There's a reason the original ran through the Blackwater valley and not the coast.

    Edit: Google Maps Terrain View gives a good idea of what's involved.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭RoundyMooney


    I think someone posted on here, that a business entity still holds the title to the original alignment! As in, a throwback to what used to be a company which also owns or owned both Rosslare and Fishguard ports.

    No doubt someone here will be able to pad this out far better than I have.

    Youghal and Dungarvan will never see a link, the end will not justify the means, however if the original Waterford Mallow line could be opened on an economic basis (again highly unlikely, to say the least) there might be some chance of a viable service.

    That said, Limk Jnctn-Waterford is struggling at present, due to poor providance. If that can't be made to pay first, as with the WRC, there is no hope of further openings outside the Dublin hinterland, where passenger numbers are higher.

    Just my opinion, of course.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Rail service usually involves max grades of 1-2 foot change in every 100 feet travelled.

    The biggest stumbling block to a Youghal-Waterford service is at the very beginning - the fact that the station is at one end of the town and the options for getting to the far side of the river are all pricey. There's a reason the original ran through the Blackwater valley and not the coast.

    Edit: Google Maps Terrain View gives a good idea of what's involved.


    Living in the area (of sorts0, i know where you are coming from and you are 100 percent correct in what you say. Dungarvan to Youghal is really a non runner.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    Intererting thread here. But there is a lack of joined up thinking.

    Having a commuter link operating on a Cork -Mallow - Fermoy - Lismore - Dungarvan - Waterford (-& Rosslare) route would be a massive boost to the economies of the whole region.

    Immediate job creation in upgrading the lines to working order, and follow on for engine drivers, maintenance, retail, using non productive assets etc.

    The knock on would also be great, it allows people to seek jobs in areas otherwise out of reach.

    The key would be to link this to a triangle including Limerick. The three cities, two major airports and the port in rosslare could be joined up by decent infrastructure all withing one hour travel of the other.

    No reason the rail connections could not be run on the same basis as Luas in Dublin. The irish rail land is valued at depreciated cost (ie now at Nil) so the state could lease this at a nominal rate to make the operation of the route commercially viable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Sounds like "Western Rail Corridor" Mark II to me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Intererting thread here. But there is a lack of joined up thinking.

    Having a commuter link operating on a Cork -Mallow - Fermoy - Lismore - Dungarvan - Waterford (-& Rosslare) route would be a massive boost to the economies of the whole region.

    Immediate job creation in upgrading the lines to working order, and follow on for engine drivers, maintenance, retail, using non productive assets etc.

    The knock on would also be great, it allows people to seek jobs in areas otherwise out of reach.

    The key would be to link this to a triangle including Limerick. The three cities, two major airports and the port in rosslare could be joined up by decent infrastructure all withing one hour travel of the other.

    No reason the rail connections could not be run on the same basis as Luas in Dublin. The irish rail land is valued at depreciated cost (ie now at Nil) so the state could lease this at a nominal rate to make the operation of the route commercially viable.

    This post contradicts your username.

    Seriously.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Intererting thread here. But there is a lack of joined up thinking.

    Having a commuter link operating on a Cork -Mallow - Fermoy - Lismore - Dungarvan - Waterford (-& Rosslare) route would be a massive boost to the economies of the whole region.

    Immediate job creation in upgrading the lines to working order, and follow on for engine drivers, maintenance, retail, using non productive assets etc.

    The knock on would also be great, it allows people to seek jobs in areas otherwise out of reach.

    The key would be to link this to a triangle including Limerick. The three cities, two major airports and the port in rosslare could be joined up by decent infrastructure all withing one hour travel of the other.

    No reason the rail connections could not be run on the same basis as Luas in Dublin. The irish rail land is valued at depreciated cost (ie now at Nil) so the state could lease this at a nominal rate to make the operation of the route commercially viable.

    Surely would be cheaper and easier to modestly upgrade Limerick - Limerick Jtn - Waterford to allow for slightly quicker journey times and more trains to do Cork - Waterford/Limerick by rail.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    This post contradicts your username.

    Seriously.

    No, not really. Bringing 450,000 people into a 1 hour transit zone using one existing and one refurbished line seems sensible.
    Surely would be cheaper and easier to modestly upgrade Limerick - Limerick Jtn - Waterford to allow for slightly quicker journey times and more trains to do Cork - Waterford/Limerick by rail.

    Spot on, yes, for the Limerick to Waterford route.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    No, not really.

    Yes. Really.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    They can't do Limk Jctn-Waterford properly, they won't do Cork-Waterford properly. (In fact, can they do anything properly....?)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter


    No one is going to spend 4(5)+ hours on a luas from cork to waterford via half the country when you can drive there in 1:5hours on the current road.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    No reason the rail connections could not be run on the same basis as Luas in Dublin. The irish rail land is valued at depreciated cost (ie now at Nil) so the state could lease this at a nominal rate to make the operation of the route commercially viable.

    Can you explain this line of thinking. I can't think of how the LUAS operation would have much in common with the Cork-Waterford line.

    Also many of the jobs you speak of are related to the development and operation of the line. This isn't sustainable and it's why it was closed in the first place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    BrianD wrote: »
    Can you explain this line of thinking. I can't think of how the LUAS operation would have much in common with the Cork-Waterford line.

    Also many of the jobs you speak of are related to the development and operation of the line. This isn't sustainable and it's why it was closed in the first place.

    In relation to the luas i obviously didnt explain properly. Veolia have a license to operate a tram (Luas) service on two routes owned and paid for by the state at a cost of €850m. However they contribute nothing toward the capital cost of the Line.

    Applying the same principle, the state would make a capital investment to build the rail line and put out a tender to operate the Rail service on the line (not a tram).

    I'm not sure what your last point is getting at, but Direct and indirect jobs would be short term for the construction phase obviously, however thats not a bad thing in itself as VAT and tax recoups a big chunck of the states outlay.

    Thereafter the idea is that by linking the 3 cities & 450k + people with fast transport economic growth will follow. The luas lines in dublin are a great example of this, with new businesses cropping up all along the lines. The dutch planned transport for amsterdam - rotterdam -eindhoven on a similar model.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    The dutch planned transport for amsterdam - rotterdam -eindhoven on a similar model.

    For a population of approx 1.6 million.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    For a population of approx 1.6 million.

    So 1/3 of the number of services would do the trick.

    450k is the population of the main towns based on 2006 census and doesn't count any small towns, villages or rural population who would be close to it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,402 ✭✭✭markpb


    So 1/3 of the number of services would do the trick.

    And herein lies the rub. One third the number of services still requires the same physical infrastructure and the same multi-million euro trains. The only reduction is in signalling, smaller depots and reduced OpEx.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    markpb wrote: »
    And herein lies the rub. One third the number of services still requires the same physical infrastructure and the same multi-million euro trains. The only reduction is in signalling, smaller depots and reduced OpEx.

    I agree to a point, but one line exists already & the other rail bed is in place so its not like a full CPO and scratch engineering project is needed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,916 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Mallow-Waterford is not "in place" in a lot of areas, there's construction on it such as housing estates in Fermoy, the N20 in Mallow, etc, etc

    You can follow the line on google maps for most part due to trees along each site, however its clear that it'd need hundreds of accomodation crossings for where fields have been (re)united since its lifting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,622 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Thereafter the idea is that by linking the 3 cities
    Cork, Waterford and ???
    I agree to a point, but one line exists already & the other rail bed is in place so its not like a full CPO and scratch engineering project is needed.
    What line exists already?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    Victor wrote: »
    Cork, Waterford and ???

    What line exists already?

    Limerick

    Limerick-Waterford


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,622 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    You do realise that by building Cork-Waterford, that you reduce the amount of traffic between Limerick Junction and Waterford, thereby further endangering that line and any Limerick-Waterford service?

    How would you build the Cork-Waterford line, given the terrain between Youghal and Dungarvan?

    You do realise that Cork-Limerick Junction is double-tracked and that such track is important for the prompt and reliable operation of services?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    Victor wrote: »
    You do realise that by building Cork-Waterford, that you reduce the amount of traffic between Limerick Junction and Waterford, thereby further endangering that line and any Limerick-Waterford service?

    How would you build the Cork-Waterford line, given the terrain between Youghal and Dungarvan?

    You do realise that Cork-Limerick Junction is double-tracked and that such track is important for the prompt and reliable operation of services?


    Waterford-Cork never went through Youghal. It headed west from Dungarvan to Cappagh, Cappoquin, Lismore and onto Mallow and then to Cork.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    Victor wrote: »
    You do realise that by building Cork-Waterford, that you reduce the amount of traffic between Limerick Junction and Waterford, thereby further endangering that line and any Limerick-Waterford service?

    There are other towns on the route that would add to the traffic.
    Victor wrote: »

    How would you build the Cork-Waterford line, given the terrain between Youghal and Dungarvan?

    There is an existing defunct line does not go near Youghal.
    Victor wrote: »
    You do realise that Cork-Limerick Junction is double-tracked and that such track is important for the prompt and reliable operation of services?

    Yes, tri or quad tracks are seriously lacking here.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    There is an existing defunct line does not go near Youghal.

    Yep and it's well known to have been designed by unemployed rollercoaster designers: it was full of big gradients and tight curves.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,622 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    There are other towns on the route that would add to the traffic.
    But there are other, larger towns that you would be taking services away from.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom



    There is an existing defunct line does not go near Youghal.




    Isnt there plans to re-open the Middleton to Youghal line.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Deise Tom wrote: »
    Isnt there plans to re-open the Middleton to Youghal line.

    No - just hot air from useless local politicians - they missed the boat on this one.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    No - just hot air from useless local politicians - they missed the boat on this one.


    Maybe so, but i know i saw work been carried out on one of the railway bridges/viaducts or what ever they are called outside of Youghal a while back.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,916 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Deise Tom wrote: »
    Maybe so, but i know i saw work been carried out on one of the railway bridges/viaducts or what ever they are called outside of Youghal a while back.

    Likely strengthening the road deck. Irish Rail still own and are responsible for rail bridges even when the line is disused

    As far as I know they even have responsibility over some bridges over lines where the entire trackbed *except* that under the bridges is sold, e.g. Kilmessan/Athboy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    MYOB wrote: »
    Likely strengthening the road deck. Irish Rail still own and are responsible for rail bridges even when the line is disused

    As far as I know they even have responsibility over some bridges over lines where the entire trackbed *except* that under the bridges is sold, e.g. Kilmessan/Athboy.

    They (CIE) still own large amounts of trackbed and viaducts around the country including on the Cavan & Leitrim, the Clifden and Valencia Harbour lines that I know for certain.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,916 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I'd imagine an awful lot of trackbed has people with very strong adverse posession arguments at this stage, even on the WRC...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    MYOB wrote: »
    I'd imagine an awful lot of trackbed has people with very strong adverse posession arguments at this stage, even on the WRC...

    True but I don't think the viaducts would have too many people wanting to take responsibility for them. This one at Cahirciveen is supposed to still be in CIE ownership.

    989839_29a11ccc.jpg


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    will there be more than 14 passengers per train????


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    Good piece in yesterdays FT about how the UK government are forcing cities & councils & businesses to work together to develop regional hubs to be competitive.

    One of the keys is good transport links.

    Unfortunately the system here is so fractured and parochial that it is unlikely to ever happen here.

    Infrastructure is something chambers of commerce and other professional organisations should be pushing for.

    It's not just a case of build a road or rail line to meet existing demand. It is about driving economic growth by putting a framework in place that business can work from: transport links, educated residents, enterprise & business to business trade, incentives for business to move to the region (ie compete with UK or US cities for global business), incentives for individuals to move to the region and so on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,349 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    For me, any putative rail link or refurbishment should aim to be as fast from terminus to terminus as the road beside it. It's ridiculous to consider ramming a multibillion euro alignment from Youghal to Dungarvan, Kilmeaden and the disused Suir bridge when Clonmel and Carlow don't have commuter service to Waterford, and the Clonmel line runs on manual LCs and 40mph timetabling.

    Let's not make the WRC mistake of adding a low volume route to the network which causes the closure of others.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    Madness to improve the carlow & waterford link. Carlow is a dublin commuter fringe town now and has a motorway link to w/ford.

    Waterfords population makes it and the towns in between Cork ideal as a commuter line for Cork


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    how many commuters do you think would go to/from Cork and Waterford via Limerick Junc (or by any other fantastic route) (come on now, you can use the fingers of both hands if necessary to count them, you wont need to take off your socks though):D)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    About the same as went from drogheda to dublin 20 years ago, divided by 3.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Drogheda is between Dublin and Belfast, the two biggest population centres on the island. The line would be there anyway. There's also many other towns on the route. And no mountains. It's a bad comparison.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    Aard wrote: »
    Drogheda is between Dublin and Belfast, the two biggest population centres on the island. The line would be there anyway. There's also many other towns on the route. And no mountains. It's a bad comparison.

    The commuter services dont go to belfast.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    The commuter services dont go to belfast.

    He didn't say they did- he just said where Drogheda is in relation to it...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Waterfords population makes it and the towns in between Cork ideal as a commuter line for Cork

    Waterford's population? What population?? Is vodka the clear thinking your talking about? :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,349 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Can we all stop indulging this spoofing now?

    One look at Google Maps Terrain Mode is enough to settle this. Even if billiard table flat there is no money to build Youghal-Dungarvan - there isn't even money to reinstate Midleton-Youghal or Waterford-Dungarvan (and turf out the Kilmeaden people in the process).

    Even if there was, it would still dump everyone at the far side of the river from everything in Waterford that matters or in the event of a south bank halt way west of WIT etc.

    Let it be. Please.


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