Cork - Waterford Rail Link

clear thinking

Intererting thread here. But there is a lack of joined up thinking.

Having a commuter link operating on a Cork -Mallow - Fermoy - Lismore - Dungarvan - Waterford (-& Rosslare) route would be a massive boost to the economies of the whole region.

Immediate job creation in upgrading the lines to working order, and follow on for engine drivers, maintenance, retail, using non productive assets etc.

The knock on would also be great, it allows people to seek jobs in areas otherwise out of reach.

The key would be to link this to a triangle including Limerick. The three cities, two major airports and the port in rosslare could be joined up by decent infrastructure all withing one hour travel of the other.

No reason the rail connections could not be run on the same basis as Luas in Dublin. The irish rail land is valued at depreciated cost (ie now at Nil) so the state could lease this at a nominal rate to make the operation of the route commercially viable.

dubhthach

Sounds like "Western Rail Corridor" Mark II to me.

DWCommuter

clear thinking wrote: »

Intererting thread here. But there is a lack of joined up thinking.

Having a commuter link operating on a Cork -Mallow - Fermoy - Lismore - Dungarvan - Waterford (-& Rosslare) route would be a massive boost to the economies of the whole region.

Immediate job creation in upgrading the lines to working order, and follow on for engine drivers, maintenance, retail, using non productive assets etc.

The knock on would also be great, it allows people to seek jobs in areas otherwise out of reach.

The key would be to link this to a triangle including Limerick. The three cities, two major airports and the port in rosslare could be joined up by decent infrastructure all withing one hour travel of the other.

No reason the rail connections could not be run on the same basis as Luas in Dublin. The irish rail land is valued at depreciated cost (ie now at Nil) so the state could lease this at a nominal rate to make the operation of the route commercially viable.

This post contradicts your username.

Seriously.

invinciblePRSTV

clear thinking wrote: »

Intererting thread here. But there is a lack of joined up thinking.

Having a commuter link operating on a Cork -Mallow - Fermoy - Lismore - Dungarvan - Waterford (-& Rosslare) route would be a massive boost to the economies of the whole region.

Immediate job creation in upgrading the lines to working order, and follow on for engine drivers, maintenance, retail, using non productive assets etc.

The knock on would also be great, it allows people to seek jobs in areas otherwise out of reach.

The key would be to link this to a triangle including Limerick. The three cities, two major airports and the port in rosslare could be joined up by decent infrastructure all withing one hour travel of the other.

No reason the rail connections could not be run on the same basis as Luas in Dublin. The irish rail land is valued at depreciated cost (ie now at Nil) so the state could lease this at a nominal rate to make the operation of the route commercially viable.

Surely would be cheaper and easier to modestly upgrade Limerick - Limerick Jtn - Waterford to allow for slightly quicker journey times and more trains to do Cork - Waterford/Limerick by rail.

clear thinking

DWCommuter wrote: »

This post contradicts your username.

Seriously.

No, not really. Bringing 450,000 people into a 1 hour transit zone using one existing and one refurbished line seems sensible.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Surely would be cheaper and easier to modestly upgrade Limerick - Limerick Jtn - Waterford to allow for slightly quicker journey times and more trains to do Cork - Waterford/Limerick by rail.

Spot on, yes, for the Limerick to Waterford route.

DWCommuter

clear thinking wrote: »

No, not really.

Yes. Really.

highlydebased

They can't do Limk Jctn-Waterford properly, they won't do Cork-Waterford properly. (In fact, can they do anything properly....?)

Typewriter

No one is going to spend 4(5)+ hours on a luas from cork to waterford via half the country when you can drive there in 1:5hours on the current road.

BrianD

clear thinking wrote: »

No reason the rail connections could not be run on the same basis as Luas in Dublin. The irish rail land is valued at depreciated cost (ie now at Nil) so the state could lease this at a nominal rate to make the operation of the route commercially viable.

Can you explain this line of thinking. I can't think of how the LUAS operation would have much in common with the Cork-Waterford line.

Also many of the jobs you speak of are related to the development and operation of the line. This isn't sustainable and it's why it was closed in the first place.

clear thinking

BrianD wrote: »

Can you explain this line of thinking. I can't think of how the LUAS operation would have much in common with the Cork-Waterford line.

Also many of the jobs you speak of are related to the development and operation of the line. This isn't sustainable and it's why it was closed in the first place.

In relation to the luas i obviously didnt explain properly. Veolia have a license to operate a tram (Luas) service on two routes owned and paid for by the state at a cost of €850m. However they contribute nothing toward the capital cost of the Line.

Applying the same principle, the state would make a capital investment to build the rail line and put out a tender to operate the Rail service on the line (not a tram).

I'm not sure what your last point is getting at, but Direct and indirect jobs would be short term for the construction phase obviously, however thats not a bad thing in itself as VAT and tax recoups a big chunck of the states outlay.

Thereafter the idea is that by linking the 3 cities & 450k + people with fast transport economic growth will follow. The luas lines in dublin are a great example of this, with new businesses cropping up all along the lines. The dutch planned transport for amsterdam - rotterdam -eindhoven on a similar model.

DWCommuter

clear thinking wrote: »

The dutch planned transport for amsterdam - rotterdam -eindhoven on a similar model.

For a population of approx 1.6 million.

clear thinking

DWCommuter wrote: »

For a population of approx 1.6 million.

So 1/3 of the number of services would do the trick.

450k is the population of the main towns based on 2006 census and doesn't count any small towns, villages or rural population who would be close to it.

markpb

clear thinking wrote: »

So 1/3 of the number of services would do the trick.

And herein lies the rub. One third the number of services still requires the same physical infrastructure and the same multi-million euro trains. The only reduction is in signalling, smaller depots and reduced OpEx.

clear thinking

markpb wrote: »

And herein lies the rub. One third the number of services still requires the same physical infrastructure and the same multi-million euro trains. The only reduction is in signalling, smaller depots and reduced OpEx.

I agree to a point, but one line exists already & the other rail bed is in place so its not like a full CPO and scratch engineering project is needed.

L1011

Mallow-Waterford is not "in place" in a lot of areas, there's construction on it such as housing estates in Fermoy, the N20 in Mallow, etc, etc

You can follow the line on google maps for most part due to trees along each site, however its clear that it'd need hundreds of accomodation crossings for where fields have been (re)united since its lifting.

Victor

clear thinking wrote: »

Thereafter the idea is that by linking the 3 cities

Cork, Waterford and ???

clear thinking wrote: »

I agree to a point, but one line exists already & the other rail bed is in place so its not like a full CPO and scratch engineering project is needed.

What line exists already?

clear thinking

Victor wrote: »

Cork, Waterford and ???

What line exists already?

Limerick

Limerick-Waterford

Victor

You do realise that by building Cork-Waterford, that you reduce the amount of traffic between Limerick Junction and Waterford, thereby further endangering that line and any Limerick-Waterford service?

How would you build the Cork-Waterford line, given the terrain between Youghal and Dungarvan?

You do realise that Cork-Limerick Junction is double-tracked and that such track is important for the prompt and reliable operation of services?

Deise Tom

Victor wrote: »

You do realise that by building Cork-Waterford, that you reduce the amount of traffic between Limerick Junction and Waterford, thereby further endangering that line and any Limerick-Waterford service?

How would you build the Cork-Waterford line, given the terrain between Youghal and Dungarvan?

You do realise that Cork-Limerick Junction is double-tracked and that such track is important for the prompt and reliable operation of services?

Waterford-Cork never went through Youghal. It headed west from Dungarvan to Cappagh, Cappoquin, Lismore and onto Mallow and then to Cork.

clear thinking

Victor wrote: »

You do realise that by building Cork-Waterford, that you reduce the amount of traffic between Limerick Junction and Waterford, thereby further endangering that line and any Limerick-Waterford service?

There are other towns on the route that would add to the traffic.

Victor wrote: »

How would you build the Cork-Waterford line, given the terrain between Youghal and Dungarvan?

There is an existing defunct line does not go near Youghal.

Victor wrote: »

You do realise that Cork-Limerick Junction is double-tracked and that such track is important for the prompt and reliable operation of services?

Yes, tri or quad tracks are seriously lacking here.

Hungerford

clear thinking wrote: »

There is an existing defunct line does not go near Youghal.

Yep and it's well known to have been designed by unemployed rollercoaster designers: it was full of big gradients and tight curves.

Victor

clear thinking wrote: »

There are other towns on the route that would add to the traffic.

But there are other, larger towns that you would be taking services away from.

Deise Tom

clear thinking wrote: »

There is an existing defunct line does not go near Youghal.

Isnt there plans to re-open the Middleton to Youghal line.

Judgement Day

Deise Tom wrote: »

Isnt there plans to re-open the Middleton to Youghal line.

No - just hot air from useless local politicians - they missed the boat on this one.

Deise Tom

Judgement Day wrote: »

No - just hot air from useless local politicians - they missed the boat on this one.

Maybe so, but i know i saw work been carried out on one of the railway bridges/viaducts or what ever they are called outside of Youghal a while back.

L1011

Deise Tom wrote: »

Maybe so, but i know i saw work been carried out on one of the railway bridges/viaducts or what ever they are called outside of Youghal a while back.

Likely strengthening the road deck. Irish Rail still own and are responsible for rail bridges even when the line is disused

As far as I know they even have responsibility over some bridges over lines where the entire trackbed *except* that under the bridges is sold, e.g. Kilmessan/Athboy.

Judgement Day

MYOB wrote: »

Likely strengthening the road deck. Irish Rail still own and are responsible for rail bridges even when the line is disused

As far as I know they even have responsibility over some bridges over lines where the entire trackbed *except* that under the bridges is sold, e.g. Kilmessan/Athboy.

They (CIE) still own large amounts of trackbed and viaducts around the country including on the Cavan & Leitrim, the Clifden and Valencia Harbour lines that I know for certain.

L1011

I'd imagine an awful lot of trackbed has people with very strong adverse posession arguments at this stage, even on the WRC...

Judgement Day

MYOB wrote: »

I'd imagine an awful lot of trackbed has people with very strong adverse posession arguments at this stage, even on the WRC...

True but I don't think the viaducts would have too many people wanting to take responsibility for them. This one at Cahirciveen is supposed to still be in CIE ownership.

Carawaystick

will there be more than 14 passengers per train????