12 yr old being prosectued for murder as an adult

PeakOutput

so here is the story in full

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/10/pennsylvania.young.murder.defendant/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

important part

On a chilly morning in February 2009, state police found 26-year-old Kenzie Houk in her bed with a bullet though her head. She was eight months pregnant.

The search for her killer ended with the most surprising murder suspect residents of Wampum, Pennsylvania, had even seen: 11-year-old Jordan Brown, the son of the victim's fiancé.

He is one of the youngest suspects in the country to be charged with homicide, legal experts say. There are two counts of homicide, one covering the fetus.

He pleaded not guilty to the charges in May.

what do people think about this? i have mixed feelings. clearly he is a child and i believe could be completely rehabilitated so i hope the sentence isnt mandatory life without parole if convicted. but i do believe he is old enough to know right from wrong and im not sure if the children courts are up to handling something this serious

thoughts?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PeakOutput wrote: »

so here is the story in full

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/10/pennsylvania.young.murder.defendant/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

important part



what do people think about this? i have mixed feelings. clearly he is a child and i believe could be completely rehabilitated so i hope the sentence isnt mandatory life without parole if convicted. but i do believe he is old enough to know right from wrong and im not sure if the children courts are up to handling something this serious

thoughts?

While I think an 11-year-old is knowledgeable enough to know what he's doing, I don't know enough about this case to comment. Was there a reason as to why the kid shot her? Was she abusive? Or did he just plain not like her?

That said, sentencing someone to life for something they did as an 11yo (unless their psychotically* dangerous) is bizarre

. * not sure if this is the right word, but you know what I mean

My name is URL

Most murderers have the mental capacity of a 12 year old anyway

Blazer

Absolutely not....in fact I'd argue for it so children this young are more aware of the consequences.

Regardless of age this kid killed a pregnant mother and her baby...

Slugs

What were the motives? Though this is cnn, so I'm not expecting any coverage of that.

ballsymchugh

hmmm... he's been named. over here he wouldn't be named for legal reasons. why is that?? even someone up to 16 i think? surely if they've killed someone suspiciously then the name should be known

AnonoBoy

Has someone thought to blame video games yet?

That could be the answer to ensuring this never happens again.

inforfun

My name is URL wrote: »

Most murderers have the mental capacity of a 12 year old anyway

Make that: Most adults.


Capable of an headshot when 11.
Wouldnt like meeting the kid when he is 20.

abouttobebanned

My name is URL wrote: »

Most murderers have the mental capacity of a 12 year old anyway

That's a pretty inaccurate attempt at thanks whoring. (You can always depend on "My name is Url" to be there and ready at the start of the thread with some stupid "witty" comment)


As someone else said, it's hard to comment in more depth without knowing the full details of the case. 11 year olds know what they're doing but they're definitely more susceptible to TV and computer games than an adult.

It's a tragic case, and the child should be punished, but after about 2 years in court he'll be shocked himself at what he did.

petes

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Has someone thought to blame video games yet?

They will. Without knowing a bit more detail its hard to comment.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

inforfun wrote: »

Make that: Most adults.


Capable of an headshot when 11.
Wouldnt like meeting the kid when he is 20.

I failed to read in the report where this was in character and a psychologist report had condemned him already? Oh wait... AH... Right.... Sorry, carry on.

seamus

Scar_L wrote: »

Absolutely not....in fact I'd argue for it so children this young are more aware of the consequences.

Long-term I don't think they are, in fact they don't even have a proper understanding of the concept of "long-term".
Children are far more impulsive than adults though, so while an adult might experience rage and frustration, they will be able to exercise control over it and bite their tongue. A child and even a teenager however is more likely to be overcome by their emotion and lash out.

It seems bizarre that there's so much support for the child when the evidence really does seem to put him there. Though theoretically, he could have been framed, and that would take a sick puppy to do.

It's a weird one. If it was an adult, it would be considered cold and calculated, but to a child it may simply have been a means to an end without fully appreciating the consequences of death.

Particularly if they were very religious, the child may have believed that it was a lesser of two evils - that she and her baby would go to heaven and stop bothering him here on earth - using an aspect of fantasy as a basis for real-life decisions. Which children do all the time.

I think they're right to go ahead with the trial to determine what happened, but sentencing need to consider that this is a child who is likely to respond very well to proper rehabilitation.

Morlar

Scar_L wrote: »

Regardless of age this kid killed a pregnant mother and her baby...

I think he should be charged as an adult. The sentencing would be one of the very, very rare cases to deserve the possibility of parole though.

Lawros Tache

My name is URL wrote: »

Most murderers have the mental capacity of a 12 year old anyway

Source?

inforfun

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I failed to read in the report where this was in character and a psychologist report had condemned him already? Oh wait... AH... Right.... Sorry, carry on.

Yeah sure there is nothing wrong with a kid that blows the head of his fathers fiance, his stepmother.

Gone Drinking

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Has someone thought to blame video games yet?

If only he'd done it with a brick.. he'd have gotten tetris banned!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

inforfun wrote: »

Yeah sure there is nothing wrong with a kid that blows the head of his fathers fiance, his stepmother.

You do know he's pleaded not guilty, don't you?

Morlar

Lawros Tache wrote: »

Source?

I think it was more of an opinion than a 'CSO-Study certifiable fact' don't you ?

epgc3fyqirnbsx

A child is a child, try to think back to being that age yourself, hadn't even hit puberty and as such, haven't really started to understand your own individuality.
As such you are basically a creature of impulse, although rightly expected to be smarter than an animal. The child obviously has deep deep problems, and could very well be a danger to the public for the rest of his life. Or not, we don't know. The best thing for him is observation and diagnosis in an institution after doing something that serious.

But as for being named and being charged as an adult, this is something that can be seen in the US from time to time. Seems the more serious the crime or the more out-raged the public, the greater the chance of being tried as an adult.

Should this be relevant?? I don't think so, the only thing that is relevant is justice.
I don't think there's much justice in trying an obvious child as an adult just to satisfy the moorally outraged

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

That's nuts...

Bonavox

abouttobebanned wrote: »

That's a pretty inaccurate attempt at thanks whoring. (You can always depend on "My name is Url" to be there and ready at the start of the thread with some stupid "witty" comment)


As someone else said, it's hard to comment in more depth without knowing the full details of the case. 11 year olds know what they're doing but they're definitely more susceptible to TV and computer games than an adult.

It's a tragic case, and the child should be punished, but after about 2 years in court he'll be shocked himself at what he did.

That's a very unfair and inaccurate comment in itself. Maybe it's his opinion, have you ever considered that? To be honest I agree with him, and I'm definitely not thanks whoring.

docdolittle

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Has someone thought to blame video games yet?

That could be the answer to ensuring this never happens again.

Dam... was just about to post this!

My name is URL

abouttobebanned wrote: »

That's a pretty inaccurate attempt at thanks whoring. (You can always depend on "My name is Url" to be there and ready at the start of the thread with some stupid "witty" comment)


As someone else said, it's hard to comment in more depth without knowing the full details of the case. 11 year olds know what they're doing but they're definitely more susceptible to TV and computer games than an adult.

It's a tragic case, and the child should be punished, but after about 2 years in court he'll be shocked himself at what he did.

It's hard to comment without more details but yet you know that he'll be shocked at what he done in 2 years.. yeah makes perfect sense

and how observant of you to notice that I'm ready at the start of threads to say something "witty".. just like how you wait around for someone to post something you can insult them about

Beruthiel

I have two questions,
How does any right minded parent miss this kind of hate towards thier new partner?
How does an 11 year old get his hands on a gun?

Great parenting, something tells me his up bringing wasn't exactly top notch.

OrangeDagger

Scar_L wrote: »

Absolutely not....in fact I'd argue for it so children this young are more aware of the consequences.

Regardless of age this kid killed a pregnant mother and her baby...

I'd love to see the curve on this. Where's the peak? What age is most aware? If peak is 11 years old, is 5 year old less aware than 11 but more aware than 15. Highly confused.

p.s. you could be joking and I could be merely exhibiting my lack of awareness (I'm somewhere down the curve).

Barracudaincork

Beruthiel wrote: »

How does an 11 year old get his hands on a gun?

.

My thoughts exactly! How did he A: get hold of a gun and B: knew how to use it?

HalloweenJack

Tbh, I'm split on this.

It is an horrific crime, undoubtedly. Two lives ended and numerous others destroyed. I imagine his father is distraught over this.

However, on the other hand, he's a pre-pubescent boy. Trying him as an adult is ridiculous, imo.

It's impossible for us to regress to that age and truly understand what's going on in his mind. We can't judge him by our adult standards. And I don't think we can say: "When I was 11, I knew the difference", etc..

It is impossible to delete everything that you've experienced since you were 11 and be able to genuinely state you remember exactly what you thought back then.

I think a thorough psychiatric evaluation should be conducted on the child before the courts can decide how to try him. Unless he's experienced a death in the family or in life, I'm guessing the only deaths he's come into contact with are fictional ones and, more often than not, fiction merely covers the act of death. It rarely deals with the subsequent consequences.

HalloweenJack

Barracudaincork wrote: »

My thoughts exactly! How did he A: get hold of a gun and B: knew how to use it?

Read the link.

On weekends, Jordan hunted alongside his father, Chris Brown, who purchased the youth-sized 20-gauge shotgun state police believe was the murder weapon. The gun was given to Jordan as a present for Easter, and the boy's lawyers say he only used it for hunting.

Shocking stuff.

allisbleak

No real difference to some of the 11 and 12 year olds running around our rougher areas. Do the crime and get caught do the time.

trevosaur

well only in america does this happen but yer wan prob deserved a hiding as im sure he did it for a reason but I think he should be locked up for also killing an unborn child. Whats a life sentence in america? Isnt it 25 years or is he in there until the day he dies from old age?

Overheal

trevosaur wrote: »

well only in america does this happen

Which part, does this only happen in America?

epgc3fyqirnbsx

trevosaur wrote: »

well only in america does this happen but yer wan prob deserved a hiding as im sure he did it for a reason but I think he should be locked up for also killing an unborn child. Whats a life sentence in america? Isnt it 25 years or is he in there until the day he dies from old age?

The judiciary in the US have a lot more discretion with minimum and mandatory sentencing but I think it differs from state to state

Really think that the Irish judges would love the power to impose minimum sentencing in murder trials

Ticktactoe

Beruthiel wrote: »

I have two questions,
How does any right minded parent miss this kind of hate towards thier new partner?
How does an 11 year old get his hands on a gun?

Great parenting, something tells me his up bringing wasn't exactly top notch.

Was about to post those two questions myself.

It has been posted that the child does not know what he was doing, doesn't understand 'long-term' and think back when you were that age........................ I know when I was 11, I wasn't taking guns to peoples heads and pulling the trigger.

Im sure he knew that she was pregnant - was there issues of another child coming into the family. Its a hard one to tried and figure out without more info.

It is sad that an 11 years old has this sort of unbringing and would you give your 11 year old child a gun for easter?

Barracudaincork

I know the kid is only 11, but he knew how to use that gun and what the gun was for. He knew how to load that gun and pull the trigger, he knew by pulling that trigger he could kill her, just like the animals he had killed when he was out hunting, therefore i do think this kid is more aware of what he was doing than most other 11 year olds and although not quite an adult, he still knew what he was doing IMO.

Overheal

This is nothing to get too worked up about. All it means is that the Plantiff wants the boy tried and sentenced as an adult.

That doesn't mean he will be found guilty as, or sentenced, as an Adult. Thats for the Judge and Jury.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Read the link.

Shocking stuff.

... in that case, the parent should face action as well.

allisbleak

trevosaur wrote: »

well only in america does this happen but yer wan prob deserved a hiding as im sure he did it for a reason but I think he should be locked up for also killing an unborn child. Whats a life sentence in america? Isnt it 25 years or is he in there until the day he dies from old age?

What are you talking about. there are 10 years olds here who handle guns and know how to use them

inforfun

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

You do know he's pleaded not guilty, don't you?

Yes, i do know but dont they (almost) always do?
I also know that he is only a suspect so far.
But there must be a reason why he is locked up for over a year now.

AnonoBoy

Overheal wrote: »

Which part, does this only happen in America?

Yes. No child has ever murdered anyone outside of America.

MagicMarker

I don't mind the kid being tried as an adult. I think he did it and I think it was pre-meditated. But putting an 11 year old in an adult prison is just shocking tbh. At the end of the day, he's still a child.

I also think the father should be held accountable. The child having his own gun doesn't bother me as there is supervision when he's out hunting with his dad, but when they're not out hunting the gun should be locked away and the son should NOT have access!!

we'llallhavetea_old

i think he should be treated as an adult, at eleven yrs old, i was well aware of good/bad. and i think any 11yr old child (especially one that hunts animals) would fully understand the outcome of shooting someone in the head.

leaving a gun available for an eleven yr old child to use when unsupervised is one of the most retarded things i've ever heard.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

inforfun wrote: »

Yes, i do know but dont they (almost) always do?
I also know that he is only a suspect so far.
But there must be a reason why he is locked up for over a year now.

Lovely. You're excused jury duty.

LittleBook

Barracudaincork wrote: »

I know the kid is only 11, but he knew how to use that gun and what the gun was for. He knew how to load that gun and pull the trigger, he knew by pulling that trigger he could kill her, just like the animals he had killed when he was out hunting, therefore i do think this kid is more aware of what he was doing than most other 11 year olds and although not quite an adult, he still knew what he was doing IMO.

+1

In the case of homicide, "my choice is either to charge him as an adult, or don't charge him," said John Bongivengo of the Lawrence County District Attorney's Office. "Not charging him at all wasn't feasible."

Aside from the legalities of trying him as an adult, this is not some kid who nicked his daddy's gun.

This kid is an experienced hunter, in possession of his own "youth-sized 20 gauge shotgun" ffs :rolleyes:, who knew exactly what would happen when he pulled that trigger ... allegedly of course.

Thoie

HalloweenJack wrote: »

It's impossible for us to regress to that age and truly understand what's going on in his mind. We can't judge him by our adult standards. And I don't think we can say: "When I was 11, I knew the difference", etc..

It is impossible to delete everything that you've experienced since you were 11 and be able to genuinely state you remember exactly what you thought back then.

While I agree I can't entirely remember what it was like being 11, I'm pretty certain that I can say I knew I shouldn't endanger other people at that age. I knew that I shouldn't steal things, or cheat in tests, and that I should tidy my bedroom. I understood more immediate consequences (if you don't tidy your room you're not going to X next week). I may not have precisely understood the legal consequences for me (if I had killed someone), but I would have understood death.

A friend of mine died in a house fire when I was that age, and when I was told I didn't need it explained to me. I had the understanding of the finality of death, the grieving of an adult, I understood why the adults were so upset, and I was able to empathise with her parents (who survived). The bit I didn't understand was "time heals all wounds" - I didn't grasp that some day it would become just a memory, I thought the grief would go on for ever and ever.

HalloweenJack wrote: »

I think a thorough psychiatric evaluation should be conducted on the child before the courts can decide how to try him. Unless he's experienced a death in the family or in life, I'm guessing the only deaths he's come into contact with are fictional ones and, more often than not, fiction merely covers the act of death. It rarely deals with the subsequent consequences.

As above, without having first hand experience of death at the age of 11, I knew what it was about, and knew the general consequences. I knew that if you hurt someone you went to prison. I did not comprehend what "going to prison" was like - it was something I equated with being sent to your room, but longer. I would not have realised that there were years of solicitors, court cases, wearing a suit, being photographed, and all the other incidentals between the crime and the punishment.

I don't see any problem with him being tried as an adult, and subject to adult sentencing terms if found guilty (remember he's only been accused so far). I wouldn't agree with keeping an 11 year old in an adult prison.

PeakOutput

Barracudaincork wrote: »

I know the kid is only 11, but he knew how to use that gun and what the gun was for. He knew how to load that gun and pull the trigger, he knew by pulling that trigger he could kill her, just like the animals he had killed when he was out hunting, therefore i do think this kid is more aware of what he was doing than most other 11 year olds and although not quite an adult, he still knew what he was doing IMO.

this is basically what im thinking too

i dont have a particular problem with kids of a certain age going hunting with their parents as i dont have any problem with hunting. but with that experience comes the knowledge and realisation that death is final he cant plead ignorance to the finality of his actions when he has probably killed numerous animals

the prosecutor also said his choices were charge him as an adult or dont charge him at all so it dosnt seem like his heart is in it


also its the very ambiguity about childrens mental capacity that caused the american supreme court to ban people under 18 being executed a few years ago i can imagine the family of the kid / the prosecutor and any judge that has the possibility of hearing this case thanking their lucky stars on that one

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PeakOutput wrote: »

t

the prosecutor also said his choices were charge him as an adult or dont charge him at all so it dosnt seem like his heart is in it


also its the very ambiguity about childrens mental capacity that caused the american supreme court to ban people under 18 being executed a few years ago i can imagine the family of the kid / the prosecutor and any judge that has the possibility of hearing this case thanking their lucky stars on that one

I was just about to say Pennsylvania apparently has the death penalty. Anyone going to stuck their neck out and say they think he should go to the chair if found guilty?

Logic would dictate that, if you're going to try someone as adult, you'd better be prepared to sentence one as an adult too. Otherwise, what's the point?

citizen_p

hes fukin mental...put him away.

edit : why not....
1. hes bloody mental....
2. who would want to live after that. no friends/ family diszones him etc..unable to contribute to society... just a burden on the state

(awaits hate mail and"what if your (family, cousin friend etc) did this blah blah blah")

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mousey- wrote: »

hes fukin mental...put him away.

edit : why not....
1. hes bloody mental....
2. who would want to live after that. no friends/ family diszones him etc..unable to contribute to society... just a burden on the state

(awaits hate mail and"what if your (family, cousin friend etc) did this blah blah blah")

I'll go for something even more basic: read the news report

CrazyRabbit

It's the parent that should be on trial. No child, if raised correctly, would commit such an act.

The boy needs a whole lot of therapy and long term supervision. And yes, he should also be punished, but within reason and in a manner that will not harm his future social integration. He is young enough to have a high probability of being rehabilitated.

Of course, this is assuming that he is in fact guilty.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I was just about to say Pennsylvania apparently has the death penalty. Anyone going to stuck their neck out and say they think he should go to the chair if found guilty?

Logic would dictate that, if you're going to try someone as adult, you'd better be prepared to sentence one as an adult too. Otherwise, what's the point?

I am opposed to the death penalty anyway, though I can understand why some people are not.

However, I will not be able to get into anyones frame of mind who thinks its ok to excecute and 11 year old...

we'llallhavetea_old

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

It's the parent that should be on trial. No child, if raised correctly, would commit such an act.

The boy needs a whole lot of therapy and long term supervision. And yes, he should also be punished, but within reason and in a manner that will not harm his future social integration. He is young enough to have a high probability of being rehabilitated.

Of course, this is assuming that he is in fact guilty.

i have to disagree with you there.

the child could be psycho, nobodys fault.

but we know that he had access to a gun, so yeah, sh!tty parenting.