Do christians believe animals go to heaven?

doctoremma

kelly1 wrote: »

What I'm saying is that humans have immortal souls because human souls are spiritual and spirits cannot be destroyed. Animals have non-spiritual souls which I suppose could be called some kind of "life-force" but the animal dies when their soul dies. I'm not really sure about the animal soul stuff but I don't believe that animals have a spiritual soul because God doesn't give them one.

So, in your opinion, do other members of the Homo genus have souls? Was your average Neanderthal human enough to warrant a soul?

Anyone? I understand (although I've never explored the possibility) that some of you may not believe Neanderthals existed? Or that they diverged from humans after creation? Actually, what do creationists think about Neanderthal mankind? (That's OT, I know).

Thomas828

Soul Winner wrote: »

Well according to the book of Revelation there are a lot of horses in heaven at least because Jesus returns riding on a white one and so do all His saints behind Him.

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
Revelation 19:11-16

God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses! wrote Robert Bontine Cunningham-Graham in 1917. And I quite agree with him!

kumate_champ07

what is heaven?
can animals sin?

actuallylike

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

can animals sin?

Good one, if we as humans have to have faith and watch our back to get in, do animals have to? I suppose as far as we know he never talked to them to tell them this...or maybe he did? Anyone speak cow?

chozometroid

Man and beast both return to dust, but only man's spirit ascends to God.

Bible proof:

Ecclesiastes 3
18 I said to myself concerning the sons of men, “God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts.”
19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.
20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
21 Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?
22 And I have seen that nothing is better than that man should be happy in his activities, for that is his lot. For who will bring him to see what will occur after him?

I think it's sad, because animals are awesome.

argosy2006

Must be alot of pigs chickens and cows in heaven if that s de case, considering the rate at which they are killed, and then what about the people who killed them.. and what about us the people who eat the murdered animals,,does than mean we all have sinned and will not go to heaven, and does it mean heaven is full of livestock and vegetarians

kumate_champ07

chozometroid wrote: »

Man and beast both return to dust, but only man's spirit ascends to God.

Bible proof:

Ecclesiastes 3
18 I said to myself concerning the sons of men, “God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts.”
19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.
20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
21 Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?
22 And I have seen that nothing is better than that man should be happy in his activities, for that is his lot. For who will bring him to see what will occur after him?

I think it's sad, because animals are awesome.

so what exactly is heaven?

chozometroid

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

so what exactly is heaven?

Heaven is a dwelling place (city) where God and His people live together in perfect communion.

doctoremma

chozometroid wrote: »

Heaven is a dwelling place (city) where God and His people live together in perfect communion.

Are Neanderthals there?

PDN

doctoremma wrote: »

Are Neanderthals there?

Doubt it very much, since they were not God's people (and dubious if we can call them 'people' at all).

Many theistic evolutionists would hold that Adam and Eve were not necessarily the first members of homo sapiens - but rather the first members of the species within whom God placed a spirit (thus making them 'in his image'). Prior to this human sapiens would have been nothing more than a rather highly functioning ape. Neanderthals would be a somewhat less advanced species of ape.

herbiemcc

Does anyone think God placed a spirit in Adam and then literally made Eve using his rib?

Would that theory fit with evolution? I would have thought if he placed a spirit within an existing species then the female would already have been there.

doctoremma

PDN wrote: »

Doubt it very much, since they were not God's people (and dubious if we can call them 'people' at all).

Well, I guess that could be subjective

PDN wrote: »

Many theistic evolutionists would hold that Adam and Eve were not necessarily the first members of homo sapiens - but rather the first members of the species within whom God placed a spirit (thus making them 'in his image').

So, if I understand you correctly, some theists think that Adam and Eve had a Mum and Dad, who were physically (from DNA to whole organism) the same as they were, but spiritually not "human"? What can be said about the "purity" of the parents (probably not the right word but I hope you get my meaning)?

PDN wrote: »

Prior to this human sapiens would have been nothing more than a rather highly functioning ape. Neanderthals would be a somewhat less advanced species of ape.

So Adam and Eve Snr were animals? Are they not privy to consciousness/reason/abstract thought etc? Did they worry for their children, try to help them live a happy life, get them to cooperate in a primitive group etc? Did they have morals?

And does this represent a speciation event? Lol :P

Edit: Can I say that this is a very interesting concept for me?

token56

doctoremma wrote: »

Edit: Can I say that this is a very interesting concept for me?

As it is for me too, I've asked this question on another thread before but to no avail, its good to be finally getting some idea of the Christian thinking.

PDN

herbiemcc wrote: »

Does anyone think God placed a spirit in Adam and then literally made Eve using his rib?

Would that theory fit with evolution? I would have thought if he placed a spirit within an existing species then the female would already have been there.

BB Warfield was a professor of Polemical Theology (now there's a title!) at Princeton Theological Seminary. His book, The Inspiration and Authority of the Scriptures, is generally acknowledged to be the classic text on biblical inerrancy. Warfield believed in evolution, in fact he described Darwin as the greatest scientist who had ever lived, yet he also maintained that Eve was literally formed from Adam's rib. So at least one person held both those positions simultaneously - demonstrating rather aptly the danger of assuming that one default position can provide a stereotype for what Christians believe.

Most Christians would believe that the rib thing is symbolic language used to stress the essential unity and partnership of a man and woman's marriage in the face of surrounding cultures that reduced women to a subservient role as a domestic servant and a baby-making machine.

PDN

doctoremma wrote: »

So, if I understand you correctly, some theists think that Adam and Eve had a Mum and Dad, who were physically (from DNA to whole organism) the same as they were, but spiritually not "human"? What can be said about the "purity" of the parents (probably not the right word but I hope you get my meaning)?

Sorry, I'm not sure I do get your meaning. They would be as 'pure' as any animal.

So Adam and Eve Snr were animals? Are they not privy to consciousness/reason/abstract thought etc? Did they worry for their children, try to help them live a happy life, get them to cooperate in a primitive group etc?

I don't think any of those things define humanity. Chimps would display most if not all of such characteristics.

Did they have morals?

It's speculation, of course, and just one particular interpretation - but no, they probably would not have morals as we know them. Acceptable patterns of group behaviour and instincts? Yes. Morals? Probably not.

And does this represent a speciation event? Lol

I wouldn't have thought so. Homo sapiens.

doctoremma

PDN wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not sure I do get your meaning. They would be as 'pure' as any animal.

Sure. I'm not sure I know enough about what the bible says about sin/etc to reasonably carry on this line of thought.

PDN wrote: »

I don't think any of those things define humanity. Chimps would display most if not all of such characteristics.

Are there chimps in heaven?

PDN wrote: »

It's speculation, of course, and just one particular interpretation - but no, they probably would not have morals as we know them. Acceptable patterns of group behaviour and instincts? Yes. Morals? Probably not.

Does anyone have morals as "we know them".

PDN wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought so. Homo sapiens.

It was a joke.

Another thought: if Adam and Eve were just one of many of a population of Homo sapiens, what happened to the rest of them?

kumate_champ07

chozometroid wrote: »

Heaven is a dwelling place (city) where God and His people live together in perfect communion.

do family members all live together and if so how many generations together? If a couple lived on earth and had a perfect relationship and raised good children but were not married before they died could they live together in heaven as a couple?

Canis Lupus

chozometroid wrote: »

Heaven is a dwelling place (city) where God and His people live together in perfect communion.

Does heaven remove human nature then?

chozometroid

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Does heaven remove human nature then?

No. Human nature is "removed" when the children of God are raised in their new incorruptible bodies, which corresponds with their decision in life to leave the old self of sin behind and follow Christ in the Spirit.

kumate_champ07

chozometroid wrote: »

No. Human nature is "removed" when the children of God are raised in their new incorruptible bodies, which corresponds with their decision in life to leave the old self of sin behind and follow Christ in the Spirit.

can you define visually what heaven is supposed to be like?

chozometroid

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

can you define visually what heaven is supposed to be like?

Revelation 21

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 22

1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

kumate_champ07

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

can you define visually what heaven is supposed to be like?

.

chozometroid

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

.

You want me to find a modern English version? :pac:

kumate_champ07

im not really interested in cryptic verses that can mean anything, is the book of revelations held in the same esteem as the bible? who decides which parts are to be followed and which are to be ignored?

kumate_champ07

chozometroid wrote: »

You want me to find a modern English version? :pac:

no, I can read all of that and make up my own interpretation but thats not what I asked. can you define what heaven is visually and in your own words?

chozometroid

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

no, I can read all of that and make up my own interpretation but thats not what I asked. can you define what heaven is visually and in your own words?

I can only form a description based off of the vision John received as revealed in the book of Revelation. So -I- cannot define what heaven is visually, no. Can I give a description of heaven in my own words? I don't see the point. I didn't see it, so I cannot improve upon the Biblical text.

chozometroid

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

im not really interested in cryptic verses that can mean anything, is the book of revelations held in the same esteem as the bible? who decides which parts are to be followed and which are to be ignored?

The book of Revelation is, more specifically, the "revelation of Jesus Christ," so yes, it's held in at least the same esteem as the rest of the Bible. All parts of the Bible are of value, and not to be ignored.

kumate_champ07

chozometroid wrote: »

The book of Revelation is, more specifically, the "revelation of Jesus Christ," so yes, it's held in at least the same esteem as the rest of the Bible. All parts of the Bible are of value, and not to be ignored.

Exodus 31:15 " whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

Isaiah 13:16 "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."

Numbers 31:17-18 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

chozometroid

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Exodus 31:15 " whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

Isaiah 13:16 "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."

Numbers 31:17-18 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

Yes, those were commands in the Old Testament times. Your point?

kumate_champ07

chozometroid wrote: »

Yes, those were commands in the Old Testament times. Your point?

oh so that wasnt gods word?