An Irish Muslim Response to MPAC.IE

FriarMo

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Could he also answer the questions that he left hanging on the MPAC.ie site:

1. Does he believe that Islam is the ONLY acceptable religion before Allah?
2. Does he believe that all who reject Islam and die in that state are bound for the hellfire?
3. Does he believe that Islam will subdue all others and that the world will submit to Islam?

His refusal to answer speaks volumes.

Despite my better judgment not to be goaded by the MPACIE thugs I will not give them the satisfaction of accusing me of evading questions even after I was censored and blocked from their website. Even after my posts that were previously published were removed and replaced with the absurd “(Removed – we will not give oxygen to those who accept some of Allah’s book and reject the rest)” and even after I was threatened by a fatwa and asked questions aimed at intimidating me into fearing arrest by the Saudi authorities and religious police.

Perversely most of the questions I posed to MPACIE more than 3 months ago regarding the nature of the organization, its membership and its funding were left unanswered or the response was an outright lie.

Your refusal to answer Egan says volumes.


A1-I do not claim that my own beliefs and interpretations have a monopoly on the truth, nor do I accept the supremacist ideology of Wahhabism that you follow. To paraphrase, having an open and questioning mind is not the opposite of faith it is an element of faith. I do not share the blind certainty that you have from having a closed mind.


A2-No I do not believe that all who reject Islam are bound for hellfire.


A3- No I do not believe that Islam will subdue all others or that it should. I certainly would not want your extremist interpretation to spread to any extent and in fact would stand side by side with all rational freedom loving people who resist your efforts.

I will not further engage in discourse with an “organization” that takes its cues from a totalitarian regime and use repressive and dishonest tactics.

MPACIE is a stain on the Irish Muslim community and a poisonous cancer.

[snipped]

oceanclub

It seems that as well as being RTE's chosen spokesman for Muslim issues, Liam Egan seems to be the writer on Muslim issues for Metro Eireann, Ireland's main multicultural newspaper.

Here's an article by him stating that for Muslims, music is forbidden:

http://www.metroeireann.com/article/islams-ruling-on-music,1891

...or that friendships with non-Muslims should be "chosen carefully"

http://www.metroeireann.com/article/islams-principle-of-friendship,2253

Actually, here Liam is deliberately moderating his tone for public consumption. His actual attitude is best summed up by his comparison of friendships with non-Muslims to being friends with "junkies, prostitutes or drunkards" (http://www.politics.ie/1297116-post74.html).

Here is talking about a "power battle" in Irish Islam (as if he was an impartial observer with no part in it!):

http://www.metroeireann.com/article/islams-irish-power-battle,2126

EDIT: Now MPAC is posting articles about something called the Muslim Defence Force:

http://mpac.ie/2010/02/06/they-only-wish-to-deceive-us/

...with Youtube videos embedded in it by this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Anwar al-Awlaki (also spelled Aulaqi; Arabic: أنور العولقي Anwar al-‘Awlaqī; born April 22, 1971 (1971-04-22) (age 38) in Las Cruces, New Mexico)[3][4][5][6] is a Muslim lecturer, spiritual leader, and former imam believed to be a senior talent recruiter and motivator "for al-Qaeda and all of its franchises." With a blog and a Facebook page, he has been described as the "bin Laden of the internet."In 2009, he reportedly was promoted to the rank of regional commander within al-Qaeda.

P.

oceanclub

I've posted before about how MPAC is filling a void left by other organizations failing to get their act together, leaving people to assume that MPAC is the voice of Irish Islam.

If you want further proof, I contacted a journalist who recently used Liam Egan as their only Muslim source in an article on polygamy, and asked why. His response is very interesting, I quote parts here:

I quoted Liam Egan as I wanted to get a Muslim voice in the piece.

I had approached the Islamic Cultural Centre for a comment about the case on Thursday and they had promised to respond by Friday. They failed to do so despite promising to do so when I contacted them again on Friday afternoon.

The MPAC represent a small number of Muslims and they were not my first choice. But given the Islam Cultural Centre had left me short I rang Liam on Saturday morning to get a Muslim perspective. I appreciate the MPAC can be very confrontational in their statements but if the established Muslim community fails to speak to the media they are leaving us with little choice but to seek comment elsewhere.

So there you go. The journalist added that if I knew of any organizations that he could contact in future, he should let me know. But unfortunately, I don't.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

I've posted before about how MPAC is filling a void left by other organizations failing to get their act together, leaving people to assume that MPAC is the voice of Irish Islam.

If you want further proof, I contacted a journalist who recently used Liam Egan as their only Muslim source in an article on polygamy, and asked why. His response is very interesting, I quote parts here:

So there you go. The journalist added that if I knew of any organizations that he could contact in future, he should let me know. But unfortunately, I don't.

P.

Despite your misgivings, no one has been able to demonstrate how and where MPAC have deviated from mainstream Islamic thought. They even have a challenge on their front page and the only response so far was an 'uncle Tom' having a go at Saudi Arabia. MPAC seem pretty sure of themselves.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Despite your misgivings, no one has been able to demonstrate how and where MPAC have deviated from mainstream Islamic thought.

That's not even my point. My point is how can Liam Egan, his wife, and several other people come together to claim to represent all of Irish muslims?

P.

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Despite your misgivings, no one has been able to demonstrate how and where MPAC have deviated from mainstream Islamic thought. They even have a challenge on their front page and the only response so far was an 'uncle Tom' having a go at Saudi Arabia. MPAC seem pretty sure of themselves.

EireMuzzie, can u just come clean and tell us if you represent MPAC in some way?

EireMuzzie

irishconvert wrote: »

EireMuzzie, can u just come clean and tell us if you represent MPAC in some way?

I've never made that claim, have I? I seem to remember people rushing to the defense of a poster when he was asked about his claim to Irish nationality, the response was it was personal and could cause friction. OK, same applies here.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

That's not even my point. My point is how can Liam Egan, his wife, and several other people come together to claim to represent all of Irish muslims?

P.

Where has he or they ever made that claim?

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Where has he or they ever made that claim?

Read any of Liam's articles - he will put forward his own Wahabist opinions as those of Irish muslims. If you dare disagree with him, he will claim you are not a Muslim.

(It doesn't take much to be a deviant Muslim in Liam-world - on politics.ie, he claimed that any Muslim friend of mine who has ever gone out for dinner with me is not a Muslim. Go figure.)

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

Read any of Liam's articles - he will put forward his own Wahabist opinions as those of Irish muslims. If you dare disagree with him, he will claim you are not a Muslim.

(It doesn't take much to be a deviant Muslim in Liam-world - on politics.ie, he claimed that any Muslim friend of mine who has ever gone out for dinner with me is not a Muslim. Go figure.)

P.

I find that hard to believe Ocean, have you got evidence of this? A lot of people seem to have many things to say about Egan, which further investigation proves totally unfounded.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I find that hard to believe Ocean, have you got evidence of this? A lot of people seem to have many things to say about Egan, which further investigation proves totally unfounded.

Please show me where any of what has been said about Liam is "unfounded". Go on, I dare you.

As for the "dinner" remark, here you go:

http://www.politics.ie/1296516-post34.html

(Click on the "thread" link to follow Liam's disassembling.)

Just to note that's the same thread in which Liam, 30 posts later, compares being friends to non-Muslims to being friends with "friendship with junkies, prostitutes or drunkards".

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

Please show me where any of what has been said about Liam is "unfounded". Go on, I dare you.

As for the "dinner" remark, here you go:

http://www.politics.ie/1296516-post34.html

(Click on the "thread" link to follow Liam's disassembling.)

Just to note that's the same thread in which Liam, 30 posts later, compares being friends to non-Muslims to being friends with "friendship with junkies, prostitutes or drunkards".

P.

The Saudi link is one unfounded allegation, and one that has been repeated time and again.

I read that before and think you missed the point he was making. There was no comparison, he demonstrated that non Muslims also choose their friends based on criteria but have a go at Muslims for doing the same.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

The Saudi link is one unfounded allegation, and one that has been repeated time and again.

I didn't realise we were talking about that. We were talking about the fact that Liam doesn't think Muslims who will have dinner with me are proper Muslims. You didn't believe me, so I showed you the proof. Why are you responding by talking about an entirely different topic?

I read that before and think you missed the point he was making. There was no comparison, he demonstrated that non Muslims also choose their friends based on criteria but have a go at Muslims for doing the same.

No, it had nothing to do with that at all. But then, since you're one of Liam's little cronies, arguing against actual evidence is to be expected from you. I'll leave it up to people who aren't MPAC members to read those posts from Liam and draw their own conclusions.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub:I didn't realise we were talking about that. We were talking about the fact that Liam doesn't think Muslims who will have dinner with me are proper Muslims. You didn't believe me, so I showed you the proof. Why are you responding by talking about an entirely different topic?

You previously made the claim, he claimed that any Muslim friend of mine who has ever gone out for dinner with me is not a Muslim. Which is a blatant lie, and which you have now changed to Liam doesn't think Muslims who will have dinner with me are proper Muslims. I find it difficult to deal with someone who distorts statements Ocean.

No, it had nothing to do with that at all. But then, since you're one of Liam's little cronies, arguing against actual evidence is to be expected from you. I'll leave it up to people who aren't MPAC members to read those posts from Liam and draw their own conclusions.

Another unsubstantiated accusation, you are probably the best means of propaganda for MPAC because they say non Muslims want to deceive, and I've seen nothing but deception and distortion.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

You previously made the claim, he claimed that any Muslim friend of mine who has ever gone out for dinner with me is not a Muslim. Which is a blatant lie, and which you have now changed to Liam doesn't think Muslims who will have dinner with me are proper Muslims. I find it difficult to deal with someone who distorts statements Ocean.

You seem to be calling me a liar because I used "Muslim" in one sentence and "proper Muslim" in another. The point I'm making is that Liam thinks you're either a Muslim or you're not. To Liam, there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

By the way, the use of coloring/bolding/punctuation doesn't constitute an argument.

As I've already said; by all means, don't rely on my words. I call on people to go to the politics.ie thread and read Liam's words for themselves.

Another unsubstantiated accusation, you are probably the best means of propaganda for MPAC because they say non Muslims want to deceive, and I've seen nothing but deception and distortion.

And your hysteria about a single word, and now your statement that all non-Muslims are liars, is a good example of the kind of mentality behind MPAC.ie.

By the way, I presume based on posting times that you're muzzylogik on politics.ie?


P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub: You seem to be calling me a liar because I used "Muslim" in one sentence and "proper Muslim" in another. The point I'm making is that Liam thinks you're either a Muslim or you're not. To Liam, there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

No, in one sentence you claimed that Liam said such a person was NOT A MUSLIM and in the other you said NOT A PROPER MUSLIM. There is a huge difference. I would agree with MPAC on this, befriending non Muslims is a sign of enmity toward Allah.

As I've already said; by all means, don't rely on my words. I call on people to go to the politics.ie thread and read Liam's words for themselves.

If you could point us in the right direction it would be helpful.

And your hysteria about a single word, and now your statement that all non-Muslims are liars, is a good example of the kind of mentality behind MPAC.ie.

Where in that piece does it say ALL non Muslims are liars? Again you are guilty of reading your own prejudices into that text/message.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

No, in one sentence you claimed that Liam said such a person was NOT A MUSLIM and in the other you said NOT A PROPER MUSLIM. There is a huge difference.

There's no difference since Liam doesn't think there is a difference.

I would agree with MPAC on this, befriending non Muslims is a sign of enmity toward Allah.

I congratulate you on being open about your bigotry.

If you could point us in the right direction it would be helpful.

I pointed people using what is known technically as a "hyperlink". People can click on that hyperlink and read the thread.

Where in that piece does it say ALL non Muslims are liars?

Where you said:

you are probably the best means of propaganda for MPAC because they say non Muslims want to deceive

Another bigoted remark.

Anyway, I have a Valentine's dinner to get ready for so I'll have to leave this thread for now or my wife will kil me.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub: There's no difference since Liam doesn't think there is a difference.

Another unsubstantiated claim and an outright lie.

I congratulate you on being open about your bigotry.

In Liam's words, it's no more bigoted than you advising your family not to befriend drug users, alcoholics or prostitutes. Muslims simply have a higher moral bar.

The Recliner

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I've never made that claim, have I? I seem to remember people rushing to the defense of a poster when he was asked about his claim to Irish nationality, the response was it was personal and could cause friction. OK, same applies here.

Actually that was different in that there was a threat implied in questioning that persons nationality and that sort of thing is not tolerated

And honesty is appreciated, if you do represent MPAC in some way there is no problem if you just tell us but if you are found out to be representing MPAC and have not informed us then that is shilling and wont be tolerated

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

befriending non Muslims is a sign of enmity toward Allah.

Can you please expand on this? I am interested in how you came to this conclusion.

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

In Liam's words, it's no more bigoted than you advising your family not to befriend drug users, alcoholics or prostitutes. Muslims simply have a higher moral bar.

Be careful you don't fall off that high moral horse, you might hurt yourself.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Another unsubstantiated claim and an outright lie.

In Liam's words, it's no more bigoted than you advising your family not to befriend drug users, alcoholics or prostitutes.

It's still as bigoted as saying:

• "it's no more bigoted to advise people not befriend blacks than you advising your family not to befriend drug users, alcoholics or prostitutes"
  
• "it's no more bigoted to advise people not befriend Asians than you advising your family not to befriend drug users, alcoholics or prostitutes"
  
• "it's no more bigoted to advise people not befriend women than you advising your family not to befriend drug users, alcoholics or prostitutes"

Based on your logic, it would be more moral for a Muslim to be friends of Osama Bin Laden than of Gandhi.

Nevertheless, I'm glad to see you finally show your true colors and stop the pretense that's you're some disinterested observer rather than a MPAC Wahabist.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

It's still as bigoted as saying:

• "it's no more bigoted to advise people not befriend blacks than you advising your family not to befriend drug users, alcoholics or prostitutes"
• "it's no more bigoted to advise people not befriend Asians than you advising your family not to befriend drug users, alcoholics or prostitutes"
• "it's no more bigoted to advise people not befriend women than you advising your family not to befriend drug users, alcoholics or prostitutes"

Based on your logic, it would be more moral for a Muslim to be friends of Osama Bin Laden than of Gandhi.

Nevertheless, I'm glad to see you finally show your true colors and stop the pretense that's you're some disinterested observer rather than a MPAC Wahabist.

P.

Oh, I get it. It's OK for you to make exceptions, but Muslims really shouldn't because it shows they are bigoted :rolleyes:
I don't personally think Muslims should befriend OBL because of his Khariji leanings, no more than I would advise a Muslim to befriend a Sufi or a Rafadi.

EireMuzzie

irishconvert wrote: »

Be careful you don't fall off that high moral horse, you might hurt yourself.

Appreciate the concern, do you not think Islam has a higher moral bar than western morals?

Look up the teaching of Al Wala wa Bara for more information on friendships.

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Appreciate the concern, do you not think Islam has a higher moral bar than western morals?

I do.

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Look up the teaching of Al Wala wa Bara for more information on friendships.

Tell me, how are you supposed to give Dawah if you are not going to befriend non-Muslims? What about your family (if they are non-Muslim)? Do you have any interaction with them?

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Oh, I get it. It's OK for you to make exceptions, but Muslims really shouldn't because it shows they are bigoted :rolleyes:
I don't personally think Muslims should befriend OBL because of his Khariji leanings, no more than I would advise a Muslim to befriend a Sufi or a Rafadi.

Where did I say these rules only apply to Muslims? Let me put this clearly, as you either really have a hard time following arguments or you're a dishonest debater:

People - ALL PEOPLE - who won't make friends of anyone from a certain group and general those groups have lower morals than others are bigots.

P.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Appreciate the concern, do you not think Islam has a higher moral bar than western morals?

I'm just curious that you divide the world into "Islam" and "the West". There's plenty of the world that doesn't belong to either you know.

P.

The Recliner

Originally Posted by EireMuzzie View Post
I've never made that claim, have I? I seem to remember people rushing to the defense of a poster when he was asked about his claim to Irish nationality, the response was it was personal and could cause friction. OK, same applies here.
Actually that was different in that there was a threat implied in questioning that persons nationality and that sort of thing is not tolerated

And honesty is appreciated, if you do represent MPAC in some way there is no problem if you just tell us but if you are found out to be representing MPAC and have not informed us then that is shilling and wont be tolerated

Any chance you will reply to this, honesty is important and dishonesty will see you banned from the forum

oceanclub

I'm also curious is EireMuzzie still denying they have any link to MPAC.ie, when s/he joined boards.ie 2 days after an anti-MPAC.ie post, and on the very same day posted a response to it:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64465412#post64465412

....and have never posted about any other issue.

P.

Hobbes

Hi,

I am not going to read the whole thread but there seems to be a clear theme.

1. Attack the post, not the poster. That applies to everyone. No users are on trial here.

2. I believe boards.ie requires that if you work for a particular organisation you are required to make that clear if your promoting that site or you risk a site ban. EireMuzzle has said he is not, so leave it at that. It is possible to agree with some websites details even if you don't run the site.

Also why/when EireMuzzle joined is not open for speculation on this forum.

3. Let me make this clear. If you make a claim, it is up to you to show your sources. Even if those sources are flawed/incorrect you are still required to point them out. If you are not capable of doing this you should retract your statement or risk a ban.

4. Just because someone else breaks a rule does not give you an excuse to avoid the same rule.

5. IF someone is breaking the charter report the post. Do not speculate on the thread.

Lastly.. I had stepped down from modship a while back but the paperwork is only catching up now. So I may or may not be a mod soon. That doesn't mean that this post should be ignored. Thanks.