An Irish Muslim Response to MPAC.IE

FriarMo

An Irish Muslim Response to “MPAC.IE”

Commentators have asked why more Muslims in Ireland haven’t spoken up against the disturbing and repugnant views expressed by MPAC.IE such as the stoning of women, killing of “witches” and homosexuals, prohibition on friendships with non-Muslim and condoning of slavery to list the most prominent outrages. Muslims in Ireland whom I have talked to are almost uniformly horrified by this website but also recognize its views represent those of an insignificant radical minority.

An earlier incarnation of this personal blog masquerading as an advocacy group was the so called “Gorey Muslim Community” that misappropriated a grander name to give the false impression of importance, that site has since disappeared. One might have thought that the Muslim community in Gorey had emigrated en masse but the truth is that after the Hijab controversy it was time for a promotion and to move on to a national stage with the “Muslim Public Affairs Committee” yet another hijacking of grandiose titles that gave an illusion of false importance, the “organization” is neither a committee nor does it speak for the Muslim community in Ireland.

Seeking controversy and lusting for media attention has led to one or two wayward individuals to join the sorry affair but that is the extant of it in Ireland, individuals in the UK often lend their support and this fraud is to perpetuate the illusion of importance and greater representation in this country. Fanaticism and controversy feeds the whole enterprise and for this reason the Muslims whom I have talked to see no point in providing it with the oxygen it thrives on and craves for which is attention.

MPACI.E is a propagandist Wahhabi “organization” and the danger it poses is in fermenting hatred and imagined grievances that might inspire the next generation of would be fanatics. But it is those who wait quietly in the shadows and infiltrate institutions such as mosques and youth clubs that pose the real danger and whom we need to confront and challenge as soon as they appear.

We in the Irish Muslim community have on the whole felt part and parcel of the wider Irish society for decades; this is the country where many of us emigrated to in pursuit of a better life and opportunities; or fleeing persecution, and freedom from religious, ethnic or political discrimination. It is a country that we in turn have contributed thousands of health professionals to, researchers academics and entrepreneurs and even a T.D. The majority of us are grateful for the opportunities afforded to us by this nation and not only do we respect the ideals of the democracy that we live in but also cherish them.

The likes of those running MPACIE need to be isolated and deprived of a platform in which to spread this madness whenever possible, debating them is like banging your head against the proverbial wall, at this stage of indoctrination only they can climb out of this behavioural and mental pit. Our efforts need to be concentrated on those vulnerable: the youth, the disaffected and the isolated who might fall into the same pit by the sirens’ call of extremists.

I speak for a substantial number of Muslims who share my sentiment and I hope this will clear the issue of the perceived silence of the Muslim majority whom by the nature of moderation lead varied lives free from the obsessions of these fanatic and cannot devote all their time to the ratings of fundamentalists in the periphery of the Irish Muslim community. The realty though is that when the occasion calls for it we must let our voices be heard and drown out it these extremists and I am confident that we will rise to that challenge.


Edited from:
antimpacie.wordpress.com

wes

Well said, FriarMo!!!

EireMuzzie

I asked some prominent imams in the Dublin area about this post, and the author's attempt to smear MPAC.ie as extremist. On the issue of stoning, killing witches, hijab etc - all the imams said, 'which Muslim does not believe this?' Is the author suggesting that these are not Islamic practices and if so does he have evidence for this?

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I asked some prominent imams in the Dublin area about this post, and the author's attempt to smear MPAC.ie as extremist. On the issue of stoning, killing witches, hijab etc - all the imams said, 'which Muslim does not believe this?' Is the author suggesting that these are not Islamic practices and if so does he have evidence for this?

Hmm. New poster alleges that unamed "prominent imans" agree with mpac.ie about, for example, witch killings. The same imans that the head of MPAC.ie constantly rails against on his web site.

EDIT: Here's Liam on mpac.ie only yesterday commenting about Ireland's imams:

http://mpac.ie/2010/02/02/pope-attacks-new-equality-laws/

The current ‘leadership? [in Ireland] No, I’m sorry Sawsen, I have seen nothing positive in them. In 50yrs they have done little to advance the cause of Islam.

Worst troll ever.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

Hmm. New poster alleges that unamed "prominent imans" agree with mpac.ie about, for example, witch killings. The same imans that the head of MPAC.ie constantly rails against on his web site.

Worst troll ever.

P.

Yep, it would be really wise to name the imams considering the response...anyway, you are at liberty to call any of the main mosques and check for yourself. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that such teachings are part and parcel of the hudood, and no one rejects them except the murtad.

Kind regards

E

But please, be my guest and call.

EireMuzzie

Could he also answer the questions that he left hanging on the MPAC.ie site:

1. Does he believe that Islam is the ONLY acceptable religion before Allah?
2. Does he believe that all who reject Islam and die in that state are bound for the hellfire?
3. Does he believe that Islam will subdue all others and that the world will submit to Islam?

His refusal to answer speaks volumes.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

1. Does he believe that Islam is the ONLY acceptable religion before Allah?
2. Does he believe that all who reject Islam and die in that state are bound for the hellfire?
3. Does he believe that Islam will subdue all others and that the world will submit to Islam?

Hi Liam - I guess this is another of your many aliases.

Do you believe that hateful provocations like this can lead to goodwill between Muslims and non-Muslims?

P.

EireMuzzie

'hateful provocations' deary me - ask yourself why he won't answer.

Kabour has demonstrated where his alliances lay, I guess truthful responses to the above would cast aspersions on his liberal tendencies and associates.

I'm not Liam - sorry to burst your bubble

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

'hateful provocations' deary me - ask yourself why he won't answer.

Considering you're making veiled threats to report him to the Saudi authorities (I'm aware that MPAC has links to them here), threats that are against the boards.ie charter, it's hardly surprising.

P.

FriarMo

Egan, you deleted my posts after they were published and blocked me from the mpac.ie website. After a crony of yours accused me of “Kufr” or being an apostate you referred me for a "fatwa". Furthermore you have a “Ghamidi” carry out a line of questioning used by the Saudi internal security services (Maba'hith) on political dissidents and you repeat one of those questions in your last post.

MPACIE Stifling the Voices of Irish Muslims With Extremism


You now expect me to answer any of your questions?!?!

I am not an idiot and your attempts at entrapping me are not only immoral but also criminal.

Aiding a regime in human rights violations is an offence and if I am detained in Saudi I will be sure to have legal criminal proceedings taken against you.

I will stand up against your attempts to spread your hateful and extremist message in Ireland as will many others in the Irish Muslim community. Do not expect me to have a discourse again with someone who has used the intimidation tactics of thugs and the Mafia.

oceanclub

Seriously, Liam - who do you think articles like this help, which essentially claim that based on scripture, Muslims should be rude to Christians and Jews, and that simple politeness is actually "humiliation"?

http://mpac.ie/2010/01/31/to-whom-will-you-humiliate-yourself-omuslim/

EireMuzzie

FriarMo wrote: »

Egan, you deleted my posts after they were published and blocked me from the mpac.ie website. After a crony of yours accused me of “Kufr” or being an apostate you referred me for a "fatwa". Furthermore you have a “Ghamidi” carry out a line of questioning used by the Saudi internal security services (Maba'hith) on political dissidents and you repeat one of those questions in your last post.

MPACIE Stifling the Voices of Irish Muslims With Extremism


You now expect me to answer any of your questions?!?!

I am not an idiot and your attempts at entrapping me are not only immoral but also criminal.

Aiding a regime in human rights violations is an offence and if I am detained in Saudi I will be sure to have legal criminal proceedings taken against you.

I will stand up against your attempts to spread your hateful and extremist message in Ireland as will many others in the Irish Muslim community. Do not expect me to have a discourse again with someone who has used the intimidation tactics of thugs and the Mafia.

They are very basic questions, and your stalling is laughable.

You either do or do not accept the premise that Islam is the ONLY religion acceptable to Allah - why won't you answer that?

I'll repeat the questions again:

1. Does he believe that Islam is the ONLY acceptable religion before Allah?
2. Does he believe that all who reject Islam and die in that state are bound for the hellfire?
3. Does he believe that Islam will subdue all others and that the world will submit to Islam?

Mr Muhammad Kaboor aka Friar Mo claims to be an 'Irish' Muslim. As he is a Saudi national, has he informed his government that he has rescinded nationality as it is not permissible for a Saudi national to hold dual nationality?

That huge throng of followers you have will no doubt want to see some response other than the whining above.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

Seriously, Liam - who do you think articles like this help, which essentially claim that based on scripture, Muslims should be rude to Christians and Jews, and that simple politeness is actually "humiliation"?

http://mpac.ie/2010/01/31/to-whom-will-you-humiliate-yourself-omuslim/

Interesting article - I take it you'll move out of the way then as a sign of your politeness - problem solved!

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Interesting article

I take it you're not familar with the saying "self praise is no praise".

- I take it you'll move out of the way then as a sign of your politeness - problem solved!

So just to be clear, you think that it is up to non-Muslims to show politeness to Muslims, but Muslims shouldn't reciprocate as its a sign of "humiliation"?

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

I take it you're not familar with the saying "self praise is no praise".



So just to be clear, you think that it is up to non-Muslims to show politeness to Muslims, but Muslims shouldn't reciprocate as its a sign of "humiliation"?

P.

I was warned this would happen...funny how you and Friar Mo come on at the same time.

Anyway - I certainly think Muslims should be polite of course.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Anyway - I certainly think Muslims should be polite of course.

So then you don't agree with the linked article.

Splitter!



P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

So then you don't agree with the linked article.

Splitter!



P.

Do you think being polite equates to humiliation?

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Do you think being polite equates to humiliation?

Erm, no. My argument is that is what Liam appears to think. His article was the first to use the word "humiliation", not me.

You said the article was "interesting", so I had assumed from that that you actually read it.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

Erm, no. My argument is that is what Liam appears to think. His article was the first to use the word "humiliation", not me.

You said the article was "interesting", so I had assumed from that that you actually read it.

P.

So you agree then, a Muslim can be polite without the need to humiliate himself.

Now enough of me answering questions - let's enjoy Kabour twisting himself in knots.

Nodin

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I asked some prominent imams in the Dublin area about this post, ....

What ones?

EireMuzzie wrote: »

That huge throng of followers you have will no doubt want to see some response other than the whining above. ....

I was unaware that veracity was determined by the number of "followers" one might have. Which is good news for Liam Egan, amongst others.

The Recliner

Could everyone please remain civil in this thread and keep away from personal digs

The saying "Attack the post not the poster" has been around a long time here for a reason

Any more personal digs will be met with bans as I want to keep this thread open and not be forced to close it

oceanclub

Nodin wrote: »

I was unaware that veracity was determined by the number of "followers" one might have. Which is good news for Liam Egan, amongst others.

Just to note that the mpac.ie forum has a grand total of 15 members, many of whom joined the forum to oppose the attitude of its leaders:

http://mpac.ie/forum/

There are 15 Members

There have been 7 Guests

Administrators: Admin (35 Posts), Mujaahid (19 Posts), eoin.p.whelan (10 Posts)

P.

Hobbes

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I asked some prominent imams in the Dublin area about this post, and the author's attempt to smear MPAC.ie as extremist.

Charter clearly states that any claims made should be backed up with a source (even if that source is flawed). So please do not post again until you have done this, or retracted your earlier claim. Thanks.

EireMuzzie

Hobbes wrote: »

Charter clearly states that any claims made should be backed up with a source (even if that source is flawed). So please do not post again until you have done this, or retracted your earlier claim. Thanks.

I am unable to verify a phone call hence my encouragement for people to call themselves as evidence.

But as you are inclined toward veracity, could you please ask the thread initiator to substantiate his claims, in the interests of fairness and all.

So to begin:

An Irish Muslim Response to “MPAC.IE”

The opening title makes the claim that the individual who wrote it is Irish. But it is also transpires that said individual is a Saudi national. The Saudi government do not permit dual nationality, so the claim to be an 'Irish Muslim' could only be made by rescinding Saudi nationality. Can Kabour verify this claim according to the charter?

Muslims in Ireland whom I have talked to are almost uniformly

Who are these Muslims, back up the claim please.

Seeking controversy and lusting for media attention has led to one or two wayward individuals to join

Can Kabour substantiate this claim regarding the intention of those who joined MPAC.ie?

MPACI.E is a propagandist Wahhabi “organization”

a serious claim, which on Kabour's website refers to Liam Egan as a 'Wahhabi Goebbals'. Can Mr Kabour demonstrate where MPAC.ie have deviated from mainstream Sunni views?

not only do we respect the ideals of the democracy that we live in but also cherish them.

Who are 'we' and can this claim be substantiated according to the charter?

I speak for a substantial number of Muslims who share my sentiment

Yet another unsubstantiad claim that the moderators chose to ignore.

these fanatic and cannot devote all their time to the ratings of fundamentalists in the periphery of the Irish Muslim community

serious claims but obviously not of concern to the moderators - why?

these extremists

again, silence on the part of moderators - why?

I understand that Kaboor's ideology might well tally with the non-Muslim view, but the charter is supposedly impartial so I trust you'll equally hold him accountable.

The Recliner

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I am unable to verify a phone call hence my encouragement for people to call themselves as evidence.

And you expect him to be able to do any different?

But as you are inclined toward veracity, could you please ask the thread initiator to substantiate his claims, in the interests of fairness and all.

The thread starter is hereby asked to verify his claims

....
Yet another unsubstantiad claim that the moderators chose to ignore.
serious claims but obviously not of concern to the moderators - why?
again, silence on the part of moderators - why?

I understand that Kaboor's ideology might well tally with the non-Muslim view, but the charter is supposedly impartial so I trust you'll equally hold him accountable.

Now here we have a problem because you went from questioning the OP to having a go at the Moderation of this forum, something which is expressly against the charter
If you have a problem with a post then use the report post button
If you have a problem with Moderation then PM the Mods, what you definitely don't do is duscuss it on thread

You have already received an infraction so now you are getting a ban for a week

Hobbes

Recliner got there before me.

I wasn't asking for phone conversations. You could of easily written who and when you rang them. Then people could ring the Iman in question and clarify if they feel the same way or if you were just making it up.

As for the OP, they linked to the source of the comments. Remember it is linking to the source, it is not that source is correct. It is so that people can understand where people who make claims are getting them from.

oceanclub

It's a pity we have to wait a week to hear EireMuzzie's answers to this....

P.

oceanclub

oceanclub wrote: »

Just to note that the mpac.ie forum has a grand total of 15 members, many of whom joined the forum to oppose the attitude of its leaders:

http://mpac.ie/forum/

Perhaps it's pure coincidence, but since I posted that link yesterday, the MPAC forum has been taken down. The link now takes you to "Page Not Found!", and there's no link to the forum on the main home page.

As I said, I'm sure this is pure coincidence, and suggestions that MPAC are attempting to hide their actual numbers are pure mischief which should not be countenanced.

P.

hivizman

Glad I looked at the forum yesterday afternoon, while it was still up.

There are seven followers of the MPAC.ie Twitter page, with 137 tweets between them.

oceanclub

hivizman wrote: »

There are seven followers of the MPAC.ie Twitter page, with 137 tweets between them.

That means even a fake Cheryl Cole is 1427 times more popular: http://twitter.com/cherylKerl

P.

ShoulderChip

I don't understand any of this

FriarMo

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Could he also answer the questions that he left hanging on the MPAC.ie site:

1. Does he believe that Islam is the ONLY acceptable religion before Allah?
2. Does he believe that all who reject Islam and die in that state are bound for the hellfire?
3. Does he believe that Islam will subdue all others and that the world will submit to Islam?

His refusal to answer speaks volumes.

Despite my better judgment not to be goaded by the MPACIE thugs I will not give them the satisfaction of accusing me of evading questions even after I was censored and blocked from their website. Even after my posts that were previously published were removed and replaced with the absurd “(Removed – we will not give oxygen to those who accept some of Allah’s book and reject the rest)” and even after I was threatened by a fatwa and asked questions aimed at intimidating me into fearing arrest by the Saudi authorities and religious police.

Perversely most of the questions I posed to MPACIE more than 3 months ago regarding the nature of the organization, its membership and its funding were left unanswered or the response was an outright lie.

Your refusal to answer Egan says volumes.


A1-I do not claim that my own beliefs and interpretations have a monopoly on the truth, nor do I accept the supremacist ideology of Wahhabism that you follow. To paraphrase, having an open and questioning mind is not the opposite of faith it is an element of faith. I do not share the blind certainty that you have from having a closed mind.


A2-No I do not believe that all who reject Islam are bound for hellfire.


A3- No I do not believe that Islam will subdue all others or that it should. I certainly would not want your extremist interpretation to spread to any extent and in fact would stand side by side with all rational freedom loving people who resist your efforts.

I will not further engage in discourse with an “organization” that takes its cues from a totalitarian regime and use repressive and dishonest tactics.

MPACIE is a stain on the Irish Muslim community and a poisonous cancer.

[snipped]

oceanclub

It seems that as well as being RTE's chosen spokesman for Muslim issues, Liam Egan seems to be the writer on Muslim issues for Metro Eireann, Ireland's main multicultural newspaper.

Here's an article by him stating that for Muslims, music is forbidden:

http://www.metroeireann.com/article/islams-ruling-on-music,1891

...or that friendships with non-Muslims should be "chosen carefully"

http://www.metroeireann.com/article/islams-principle-of-friendship,2253

Actually, here Liam is deliberately moderating his tone for public consumption. His actual attitude is best summed up by his comparison of friendships with non-Muslims to being friends with "junkies, prostitutes or drunkards" (http://www.politics.ie/1297116-post74.html).

Here is talking about a "power battle" in Irish Islam (as if he was an impartial observer with no part in it!):

http://www.metroeireann.com/article/islams-irish-power-battle,2126

EDIT: Now MPAC is posting articles about something called the Muslim Defence Force:

http://mpac.ie/2010/02/06/they-only-wish-to-deceive-us/

...with Youtube videos embedded in it by this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Anwar al-Awlaki (also spelled Aulaqi; Arabic: أنور العولقي Anwar al-‘Awlaqī; born April 22, 1971 (1971-04-22) (age 38) in Las Cruces, New Mexico)[3][4][5][6] is a Muslim lecturer, spiritual leader, and former imam believed to be a senior talent recruiter and motivator "for al-Qaeda and all of its franchises." With a blog and a Facebook page, he has been described as the "bin Laden of the internet."In 2009, he reportedly was promoted to the rank of regional commander within al-Qaeda.

P.

oceanclub

I've posted before about how MPAC is filling a void left by other organizations failing to get their act together, leaving people to assume that MPAC is the voice of Irish Islam.

If you want further proof, I contacted a journalist who recently used Liam Egan as their only Muslim source in an article on polygamy, and asked why. His response is very interesting, I quote parts here:

I quoted Liam Egan as I wanted to get a Muslim voice in the piece.

I had approached the Islamic Cultural Centre for a comment about the case on Thursday and they had promised to respond by Friday. They failed to do so despite promising to do so when I contacted them again on Friday afternoon.

The MPAC represent a small number of Muslims and they were not my first choice. But given the Islam Cultural Centre had left me short I rang Liam on Saturday morning to get a Muslim perspective. I appreciate the MPAC can be very confrontational in their statements but if the established Muslim community fails to speak to the media they are leaving us with little choice but to seek comment elsewhere.

So there you go. The journalist added that if I knew of any organizations that he could contact in future, he should let me know. But unfortunately, I don't.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

I've posted before about how MPAC is filling a void left by other organizations failing to get their act together, leaving people to assume that MPAC is the voice of Irish Islam.

If you want further proof, I contacted a journalist who recently used Liam Egan as their only Muslim source in an article on polygamy, and asked why. His response is very interesting, I quote parts here:

So there you go. The journalist added that if I knew of any organizations that he could contact in future, he should let me know. But unfortunately, I don't.

P.

Despite your misgivings, no one has been able to demonstrate how and where MPAC have deviated from mainstream Islamic thought. They even have a challenge on their front page and the only response so far was an 'uncle Tom' having a go at Saudi Arabia. MPAC seem pretty sure of themselves.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Despite your misgivings, no one has been able to demonstrate how and where MPAC have deviated from mainstream Islamic thought.

That's not even my point. My point is how can Liam Egan, his wife, and several other people come together to claim to represent all of Irish muslims?

P.

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Despite your misgivings, no one has been able to demonstrate how and where MPAC have deviated from mainstream Islamic thought. They even have a challenge on their front page and the only response so far was an 'uncle Tom' having a go at Saudi Arabia. MPAC seem pretty sure of themselves.

EireMuzzie, can u just come clean and tell us if you represent MPAC in some way?

EireMuzzie

irishconvert wrote: »

EireMuzzie, can u just come clean and tell us if you represent MPAC in some way?

I've never made that claim, have I? I seem to remember people rushing to the defense of a poster when he was asked about his claim to Irish nationality, the response was it was personal and could cause friction. OK, same applies here.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

That's not even my point. My point is how can Liam Egan, his wife, and several other people come together to claim to represent all of Irish muslims?

P.

Where has he or they ever made that claim?

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Where has he or they ever made that claim?

Read any of Liam's articles - he will put forward his own Wahabist opinions as those of Irish muslims. If you dare disagree with him, he will claim you are not a Muslim.

(It doesn't take much to be a deviant Muslim in Liam-world - on politics.ie, he claimed that any Muslim friend of mine who has ever gone out for dinner with me is not a Muslim. Go figure.)

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

Read any of Liam's articles - he will put forward his own Wahabist opinions as those of Irish muslims. If you dare disagree with him, he will claim you are not a Muslim.

(It doesn't take much to be a deviant Muslim in Liam-world - on politics.ie, he claimed that any Muslim friend of mine who has ever gone out for dinner with me is not a Muslim. Go figure.)

P.

I find that hard to believe Ocean, have you got evidence of this? A lot of people seem to have many things to say about Egan, which further investigation proves totally unfounded.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I find that hard to believe Ocean, have you got evidence of this? A lot of people seem to have many things to say about Egan, which further investigation proves totally unfounded.

Please show me where any of what has been said about Liam is "unfounded". Go on, I dare you.

As for the "dinner" remark, here you go:

http://www.politics.ie/1296516-post34.html

(Click on the "thread" link to follow Liam's disassembling.)

Just to note that's the same thread in which Liam, 30 posts later, compares being friends to non-Muslims to being friends with "friendship with junkies, prostitutes or drunkards".

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

Please show me where any of what has been said about Liam is "unfounded". Go on, I dare you.

As for the "dinner" remark, here you go:

http://www.politics.ie/1296516-post34.html

(Click on the "thread" link to follow Liam's disassembling.)

Just to note that's the same thread in which Liam, 30 posts later, compares being friends to non-Muslims to being friends with "friendship with junkies, prostitutes or drunkards".

P.

The Saudi link is one unfounded allegation, and one that has been repeated time and again.

I read that before and think you missed the point he was making. There was no comparison, he demonstrated that non Muslims also choose their friends based on criteria but have a go at Muslims for doing the same.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

The Saudi link is one unfounded allegation, and one that has been repeated time and again.

I didn't realise we were talking about that. We were talking about the fact that Liam doesn't think Muslims who will have dinner with me are proper Muslims. You didn't believe me, so I showed you the proof. Why are you responding by talking about an entirely different topic?

I read that before and think you missed the point he was making. There was no comparison, he demonstrated that non Muslims also choose their friends based on criteria but have a go at Muslims for doing the same.

No, it had nothing to do with that at all. But then, since you're one of Liam's little cronies, arguing against actual evidence is to be expected from you. I'll leave it up to people who aren't MPAC members to read those posts from Liam and draw their own conclusions.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub:I didn't realise we were talking about that. We were talking about the fact that Liam doesn't think Muslims who will have dinner with me are proper Muslims. You didn't believe me, so I showed you the proof. Why are you responding by talking about an entirely different topic?

You previously made the claim, he claimed that any Muslim friend of mine who has ever gone out for dinner with me is not a Muslim. Which is a blatant lie, and which you have now changed to Liam doesn't think Muslims who will have dinner with me are proper Muslims. I find it difficult to deal with someone who distorts statements Ocean.

No, it had nothing to do with that at all. But then, since you're one of Liam's little cronies, arguing against actual evidence is to be expected from you. I'll leave it up to people who aren't MPAC members to read those posts from Liam and draw their own conclusions.

Another unsubstantiated accusation, you are probably the best means of propaganda for MPAC because they say non Muslims want to deceive, and I've seen nothing but deception and distortion.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

You previously made the claim, he claimed that any Muslim friend of mine who has ever gone out for dinner with me is not a Muslim. Which is a blatant lie, and which you have now changed to Liam doesn't think Muslims who will have dinner with me are proper Muslims. I find it difficult to deal with someone who distorts statements Ocean.

You seem to be calling me a liar because I used "Muslim" in one sentence and "proper Muslim" in another. The point I'm making is that Liam thinks you're either a Muslim or you're not. To Liam, there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

By the way, the use of coloring/bolding/punctuation doesn't constitute an argument.

As I've already said; by all means, don't rely on my words. I call on people to go to the politics.ie thread and read Liam's words for themselves.

Another unsubstantiated accusation, you are probably the best means of propaganda for MPAC because they say non Muslims want to deceive, and I've seen nothing but deception and distortion.

And your hysteria about a single word, and now your statement that all non-Muslims are liars, is a good example of the kind of mentality behind MPAC.ie.

By the way, I presume based on posting times that you're muzzylogik on politics.ie?


P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub: You seem to be calling me a liar because I used "Muslim" in one sentence and "proper Muslim" in another. The point I'm making is that Liam thinks you're either a Muslim or you're not. To Liam, there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

No, in one sentence you claimed that Liam said such a person was NOT A MUSLIM and in the other you said NOT A PROPER MUSLIM. There is a huge difference. I would agree with MPAC on this, befriending non Muslims is a sign of enmity toward Allah.

As I've already said; by all means, don't rely on my words. I call on people to go to the politics.ie thread and read Liam's words for themselves.

If you could point us in the right direction it would be helpful.

And your hysteria about a single word, and now your statement that all non-Muslims are liars, is a good example of the kind of mentality behind MPAC.ie.

Where in that piece does it say ALL non Muslims are liars? Again you are guilty of reading your own prejudices into that text/message.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

No, in one sentence you claimed that Liam said such a person was NOT A MUSLIM and in the other you said NOT A PROPER MUSLIM. There is a huge difference.

There's no difference since Liam doesn't think there is a difference.

I would agree with MPAC on this, befriending non Muslims is a sign of enmity toward Allah.

I congratulate you on being open about your bigotry.

If you could point us in the right direction it would be helpful.

I pointed people using what is known technically as a "hyperlink". People can click on that hyperlink and read the thread.

Where in that piece does it say ALL non Muslims are liars?

Where you said:

you are probably the best means of propaganda for MPAC because they say non Muslims want to deceive

Another bigoted remark.

Anyway, I have a Valentine's dinner to get ready for so I'll have to leave this thread for now or my wife will kil me.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub: There's no difference since Liam doesn't think there is a difference.

Another unsubstantiated claim and an outright lie.

I congratulate you on being open about your bigotry.

In Liam's words, it's no more bigoted than you advising your family not to befriend drug users, alcoholics or prostitutes. Muslims simply have a higher moral bar.

The Recliner

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I've never made that claim, have I? I seem to remember people rushing to the defense of a poster when he was asked about his claim to Irish nationality, the response was it was personal and could cause friction. OK, same applies here.

Actually that was different in that there was a threat implied in questioning that persons nationality and that sort of thing is not tolerated

And honesty is appreciated, if you do represent MPAC in some way there is no problem if you just tell us but if you are found out to be representing MPAC and have not informed us then that is shilling and wont be tolerated

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

befriending non Muslims is a sign of enmity toward Allah.

Can you please expand on this? I am interested in how you came to this conclusion.