Spent cases

kowloon

A quick question for all of you in the know.
Assuming it's okay to own spent cases - I believe there's a precedent for that - could you fill the cases with resin/oil and put new heads on the cases to make inert rounds or would this still fall under the manufacture of ammunition?

kowloon

Serious question, I'm pretty sure I remember someone being done for having a 'bullet board'. Any takers?

r3nm0r3RASCAL

I really doubt that this is illegal! Don't take my word though!

rowa

there was someone up in court before for having spent shells , the police took it very seriously , better safe then sorry .

r3nm0r3RASCAL

How do you know this?

patbundy

that case was thrown out guys but they were inert(spelling) shellsbut they were rifle rounds. i wouldnt kowloon cos they would look like live shells and thats a different mattter buddy. i wouldnt if i was you.

Cass

I'd have to agree with patbundy on this one. If you have any component of ammunition (case, primer, powder, etc) you must have a license to cover the cases and calibre. A previous case was thrown out of court by the judge but the Gardai will still arrest and prosecute (however successful or not) those they find with shells and no licenses.

If you have spent shells thats one matter but to have spent shells with new heads is another. Where do you buy the heads? Why go through the trouble?

Topics such as this and others were covered (to some extent) on another thread - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055573581 - may be worth a read.

Just my two cents worth.

deerhunter1

kowloon wrote: »

A quick question for all of you in the know.
Assuming it's okay to own spent cases - I believe there's a precedent for that - could you fill the cases with resin/oil and put new heads on the cases to make inert rounds or would this still fall under the manufacture of ammunition?

No that would be ok to do

kowloon

Seems to be some disagreement here.

Would justice be the crowd to ring about this or the local super? Who decides policy, is there a policy?

rrpc

kowloon wrote: »

Seems to be some disagreement here.

Would justice be the crowd to ring about this or the local super? Who decides policy, is there a policy?

The firearms act is the 'policy'.

1.—(1) In this Act—
“ammunition” (except where used in relation to a prohibited weapon) means ammunition for a firearm and includes—
(a) grenades, bombs and other similar missiles, whether or not capable of being used with a firearm,
(b) any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition or missile, and
(c) restricted ammunition, unless the context otherwise requires;

dicky82

this might be off topic, but i remember years ago that i and a few of the lads i hung around with used to buy 'bullets' (that looked like they were from a machine gun) on a chain to wear round our necks. sounds tacky now but young dumb and full of cum as the old saying goes. . :rolleyes::rolleyes:

rowa

yeah i remember the camping shops around mary street and capel street in dublin selling belts of used .223 brass , they had them hanging in the windows .

dicky82

yep thats the shops alright.

kowloon

So technically, a musket ball or spent case I pick up out in the field is illegally held.

Would an authorisation cover the collecting of ammunition?

sfakiaman

Only in Ireland could there be a question about posession of non functioning ammo.:(

Sparks

kowloon wrote: »

So technically, a musket ball or spent case I pick up out in the field is illegally held.

Technically, an m5 hex bolt is illegally held without a firearms licence since it's a component part of a rifle (you'd only have to add a barrel, trigger mechanism, chamber, bolt and stock to make a firearm from one)...
This is one case of the law being an ass in the pursuit of a reasonable-ish goal.
But don't forget that the earlier case mentioned above where someone got in to trouble over cases, probably had more to do with the Gardai's attitude towards his reloading presses and other equipment (even through possession and usage of such equipment isn't illegal -- only possession of primers and propellant without appropriate paperwork is illegal).

patbundy

rowa wrote: »

there was someone up in court before for having spent shells , the police took it very seriously , better safe then sorry .

jes buddy how old are you:D cos the case i was thinking off happened in cork way before the internet was even heard off in ireland.kowloon you might get a worse responce this time if you do go ahead like the aru:eek::D

rowa

patbundy wrote: »

jes buddy how old are you:D cos the case i was thinking off happened in cork way before the internet was even heard off in ireland.kowloon you might get a worse responce this time if you do go ahead like the aru:eek::D

it was 3 or 4 years ago and somewhere around wicklow i seem to remember , i know broadband in ireland isn't great but we've had the web for a bit longer than that .
anyway i think its daft , i had a few spent rifle cases of odd calibres i'd picked up over the years , just had them for ornaments , to think they'd land you in court is crazy.

Solidchrome

ezridax wrote: »

I'd have to agree with patbundy on this one. If you have any component of ammunition (case, primer, powder, etc) you must have a license to cover the cases and calibre. A previous case was thrown out of court by the judge but the Gardai will still arrest and prosecute (however successful or not) those they find with shells and no licenses.

If you have spent shells thats one matter but to have spent shells with new heads is another. Where do you buy the heads? Why go through the trouble?

With that logic then I should have been arrested for bringing a key fob back from the UK last year that I bought at a military museum? It is a spent .45 shell.

rowa

technically you could have been arrested and charged solidchrome , a lot of shops in dublin used to sell these and stopped , i don't know if they were warned or not ,

Solidchrome

OMG- what kind of country do we live in when you can be arrested for that? People reading that from other countries will be laughing their heads off.

kowloon

I remember everyone in school had those bullet key rings, but you could own a penknife too, none of thay now.

Where do reenactors and displays at military fairs stand? The Gardai were walking past Maxims and Vickers guns with inert belts hanging out of them.

chem

Take it from me. The gardai here are still stuck in the 80s and anyone interested in collecting inert rounds, must have another reason other then collecting :rolleyes: You will be arrested, questioned and maybe charged pending a file to the DPP.

They all still have a terrorist hangover here! Be carefull

Cass

Solidchrome wrote: »

With that logic then I should have been arrested for bringing this key fob back from the UK last year......

I never said you will be, i said under the letter of the law you could be. The courts seem to be showing more common sense by dismissing cases of this nature but the Gardai are covered by law should they decide to arrest or charge someone for possessing shells or any component parts that they are not licensed for.

Forget for a minute decorative cases that you are not licensed for, you can be prosecuted for having too many spent shells and live ammo that you have a license for. In other words if your license covers you for 500 rounds of .308 and you have 300 spent shells and 300 live rounds you are legally over your allowance and in breech of the conditions of your license.

Its silly but a fact, so telling me you got away with this and that (on an open forum) proves nothing other than you are in breech of the law but have not been prosecuted for it.

Solidchrome

ezridax wrote: »

I never said you will be, i said under the letter of the law you could be. The courts seem to be showing more common sense by dismissing cases of this nature but the Gardai are covered by law should they decide to arrest or charge someone for possessing shells or any component parts that they are not licensed for.

Forget for a minute decorative cases that you are not licensed for, you can be prosecuted for having too many spent shells and live ammo that you have a license for. In other words if your license covers you for 500 rounds of .308 and you have 300 spent shells and 300 live rounds you are legally over your allowance and in breech of the conditions of your license.

Its silly but a fact, so telling me you got away with this and that (on an open forum) proves nothing other than you are in breech of the law but have not been prosecuted for it.

So what should I do- take it to the garda station? Apply for a license?

Cass

Solidchrome wrote: »

So what should I do- take it to the garda station? Apply for a license?

Firstly that won't happen as you won't get a license for it, but as i said my posts are about the law not personal opinion. I have family, most of whom, where in the armed forces and all have some sort of spent shells as decorations. I'm not suggesting a license be sought for each item or caliber nor am i saying you should have one i only pointed out that it is required.

Some portion of common sense is being applied and more Gardai seem to be resigned to allowing these decorative items be left with the owners, some are seeking that a letter from the Super be gotten to show you have declared you own such items but there are still members who will try and push the letter of the law and attempt to arrest, charge, prosecute ndividuals for owning such items.

I understand their point of view, in that they do not know if a person with X amount of spent rounds actually fired those rounds but those with them on a belt, key ring, display cabinet, clock, etc where they are most obviously for decorative purposes should be allowed to have and possess them without fear of reprisal.

Solidchrome

Thanks for the advice ezridax. Easier just to throw it away I think- a key fob isnt worth getting into trouble over.

Cass

I'm not advocating one choice or the other. Its each persons own decision. I'm also not saying if you don't clear out all offense items immediately, that the ERU are going to crash through your window. Chances are if you've had it this long you probably won't have any bother with it.

At the risk of repeating myself, all the above is what you must have or what could happen. Base your decision on your own knowledge of the local Gardai and not the actions or results of others in other districts.

Odysseus

ezridax wrote: »

I understand their point of view, in that they do not know if a person with X amount of spent rounds actually fired those rounds but those with them on a belt, key ring, display cabinet, clock, etc where they are most obviously for decorative purposes should be allowed to have and possess them without fear of reprisal.

It a mad situation where someone could be in trouble for inert items. My partner dislikes me owning firearms and hunting. She is somewhat ok with target stuff, but in general she dislikes it. She is coming up to my place tomorrow I have put away any stuff like shooting mags etc; it her opinion I respect and she has to respect mine.

However, my point in stating the above is she has a spent .243 case made into a key ring. It belonged to her brother, who is now dead. She would be devasted if that was taken off her. I always check her key ring when we travel in fear that she may leave on and it being confiscated at the air-port.

Cass

Odysseus wrote: »

It a mad situation where someone could be in trouble for inert items.

I agree with you and the other lads saying the same things.

....... she has a spent .243 case made into a key ring. It belonged to her brother, who is now dead. She would be devasted if that was taken off her. .....

The fact is like it or loathe it, its here (to stay) and people have to work around it. Take the over cautious approach and rid yourself of all items or just don't collect them in the first place. Take the middle approach and have some items which you have declared. Take the "who cares" approach and collect any thing you want, do not declare them and flaunt them as if you cannot be touched. Its personal choice.

Odysseus

ezridax wrote: »

I agree with you and the other lads saying the same things.



The fact is like it or loathe it, its here (to stay) and people have to work around it. Take the over cautious approach and rid yourself of all items or just don't collect them in the first place. Take the middle approach and have some items which you have declared. Take the "who cares" approach and collect any thing you want, do not declare them and flaunt them as if you cannot be touched. Its personal choice.

I know your right, I'm in a difficult position myself. I got my licence for the .22 Gamo in the middle of July. I was allowed 100 pellets, now where am I going to get 100 pellets. I have written 2 letters, but as I have the old paper licence, and my extention lasts until July. I don't think it will be resolved until I make a new application. Plus to top it off one digit is off on the licence as well. Local FO has told me to work way, but I won't travel far with it, as in my understanding, I could have problems if I get the wrong person on the wrong day.

Cass

Odysseus wrote: »

......... I was allowed 100 pellets, now where am I going to get 100 pellets. ..........

One of the mods (Sparks, i think) was on about something similar. Unlike live rounds (.22, 12g, .223, etc) pellets come in cans and there can actually be more than is stated on the tin. So 500 pellet tin can actually hold 499, 505, 502, 497. Okay if you are under but if your license states 500 and the tin has 505 then you are exceeding your quota on your license and hence (however technical) breaking the law. Now who is going to break open a tin and count the pellets to make sure. Its taken as an unwritten rule that you would not be in trouble for such a scenario, but as you said yourself, the wrong person on the wrong day and who knows.

I know that you cannot go through life terrified of "what ifs" and possibilities, you would never leave the house and end up a hermit. You can only take in as much info as possible and do what you deem safest/best. Same applies to the deactivated/spent shells.

bunny shooter

Considering that number of murders in the state etc recently I reckon Gardai would be better employed catching the murderers etc than counting the number of pellets in a tin or checking if my keyring is a used cartridge :rolleyes:

Lads we all know the law is an ass and that certain Gardai are the same BUT most are sensible people who have better things to be doing

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Considering that number of murders in the state etc recently I reckon Gardai would be better employed catching the murderers etc than counting the number of pellets in a tin or checking if my keyring is a used cartridge :rolleyes:

True enough (unless you tick someone off, in which case you're in a world of hurt). But it's generally customs and foreign customs/police I worry about. Paperwork having a glitch or two in Ireland tends to be treated in an Irish way because we're not really very good at issuing it in the first place and liability is shared; that doesn't always seem to hold when abroad and I prefer to have every i dotted and t crossed that I can arrange.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

......(unless you tick someone off, in which case you're in a world of hurt).......

Or stand up for your 'rights' :rolleyes:

Sparks

I think the concept of "rights", as enjoyed in many other countries (and I'm more thinking nodic and french and swiss examples than I am american "don't taze me bro" examples), hasn't quite made it to Irish shores just yet...

bunny shooter

Only because we allow ourselves to be downtrodden by our "betters" :rolleyes:

chem

Hi all,

Im in court on the 14th of Feb for inert ammo. Im a collector and was going to put my collection on display for the town festival. Also had antique firearms and bayonets. All taken by the Garda almost two years ago. Got a summons four weeks ago

Story so far. Home raided.Arrested. Questioned for 12 hours. Licenced firearms taken, Antique collection taken and up in court in Feb. Up for my licenced guns and ammo inert ammo and antique guns (broken and rusty)

Traumadoc

That is apalling, there are many homes with spent artillary cases used as fireplace ornaments.


My mother bought me an inert Mills grenade ( shell only) from a Rathmines auction room in the 80s.


This is nuts.

murph226

How come they raided the house in the first place?

Since the banning of samurai swords and the likes, I cant see bayonets going down to well, shame really.

Sparks

That is ridiculous chem, and I would have thought this settled by the wicklow court decision a few years ago; but I would just mention that you're discussing a sub judice court case in public, and that perhaps for reasons of ensuring you have the best chance to prevail, we should await the outcome before discussing any specifics like this?

chem

Sparks wrote: »

That is ridiculous chem, and I would have thought this settled by the wicklow court decision a few years ago; but I would just mention that you're discussing a sub judice court case in public, and that perhaps for reasons of ensuring you have the best chance to prevail, we should await the outcome before discussing any specifics like this?

Thanks Sparks. I understand what you are saying. But waiting almost two years has me and my family at wits end. The whole story begain when I ordered a de-act M1 Garand from Germany. I contacted the local Garda as I was trying to bulk up my display for the town. Got the bothered ear. "its not us its the DOJ" then back to the local lads.Got the run around. Call after call. In the mean time german seller posted the de-act as its free to own all over europe. It was found by coustoms.

Got letter from customs saying they found this in post, so I called the number and called down to my local Garda station to explain all. So had a meet with the top brass and home was raided. Even when said same top brass was at the festival meetings where I put forward my idea.

zeissman

I have a bullet display board that I bought of TBM designs a few years ago.
I have it on my wall.
My local garda firearms officer was around checking my security for my firearms renewals last year and he was admiring it.
Is this board now illegal ?.
It is made up of rifle and pistol rounds. they are complete rounds of inert ammo.

Sparks

It's a question that has come up before zeissman, and I thought myself that when it was struck out of court in Wicklow that the question was settled; now it would seem it's not settled yet

chem, out of interest, have you contacted the SSAI/NTSA/ICPSA/relevantNGB to bring this up with the FCP and the FPU?

Grizzly 45

I get the feeling they want to have Chem on the deact Garand,as from what he describes this is a major CYA situation for the powers that be.Everyone passed the buck,and it has to stop somwhere,and the best is dump it back on Chem.:rolleyes:
On an aside,I remember Chem you did phone /write the DOJ some time in 2008?? and asked about this situation with the bullet boards and collecting ammo,and posted a very positive feedback from the DOJ on this here.
To the fact that the DOJ virtually said to go ahead and enjoy collecting???

Also,as an aside,the ammo belts of 5.56 are still available.Saw one for sale appx 6 weeks ago.

chem

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I get the feeling they want to have Chem on the deact Garand,as from what he describes this is a major CYA situation for the powers that be.Everyone passed the buck,and it has to stop somwhere,and the best is dump it back on Chem.:rolleyes:
On an aside,I remember Chem you did phone /write the DOJ some time in 2008?? and asked about this situation with the bullet boards and collecting ammo,and posted a very positive feedback from the DOJ on this here.
To the fact that the DOJ virtually said to go ahead and enjoy collecting???

Also,as an aside,the ammo belts of 5.56 are still available.Saw one for sale appx 6 weeks ago.

Strange thing is Grizzly the Garand is not on the summons. My .22 hornet which I had a cert for is, as well as the ammo I had plus the 12g ammo I also was certed for. I was also informed that I was a terrorist suspect:rolleyes: and god only knows how that came about. Im sure im flagged when I next visit the US :rolleyes: My name is ruined as gossip never lets the truth come in the way of a good story. Lost my job over this. 2 years of hell for been a collector.

Grizzly 45

A terrorist suspect???Oh my!!! :rolleyes:Funny then that they are going to try this in a DC???And the simple way to find are you flagged is simply contact the dept of homeland security,who WILL tell you wether your name is on a watch list or not..Unlike this shower over here, US govt depts are actually helpful and play by the rules.Not make them up as they go along...:mad:.
We truely live in a police state where people can be fitted up for crimes and CS can arbitarily decide they are above the law,even when directed by a district court to do otherwise.:(:mad:

kowloon

Best of luck Chem, it really should never have gotten so far in the first place.

Sparks

Can't understand how they'd have an issue with a deact M1 chem, I passed this on the top floor of the stephen's green shopping centre only this evening:

Grizzly 45

Was it an airsoft,deact or replica Sparks??

Sparks

Didn't wander in to see Grizzly, but it didn't appear to the eye from ten feet away to be airsoft.