Begging soon to be a crime with a prison sentence

faceman

From today's news:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/retailers-welcome-impending-crackdown-on-begging-443520.html

Breakingnews.ie wrote:

Retailers welcome impending crackdown on begging

The retail community is welcoming proposed new legislation aimed at cracking down on aggressive begging.

According to reports, the Government is planning on bringing in the new legislation which will see fines and prison sentences being imposed on people who ask for money in certain places.

It will see gardaí being given new powers including arrest without warrant to tell beggars to move on if they are found to be near business premises, ATMs or vending machines.

Homeless charities have condemned the proposal however, saying that the Government efforts would be better spent tackling the causes of poverty.

The last time this was proposed, it was shot down as it was deemed to be unconstitional.

Not look for anecdotal comments on random beggars that you meet, but what are your views on the treatment of beggars should they be charged?

Personally I think its a sad day if the government has decided that the best way to deal with begging is fines (lol) or arrests.

What do you think?

Sea Sharp

Too ****ing right. There should be no beggars trying to guilt-trip me when I'm having a smoke.

Nodin

faceman wrote: »

What do you think?

I'm delighted that crimes such as pickpocketing, shop lifting, hand bag snatching, mugging, burgalry, heroin trafficking etc have dropped to such low levels that the menace of the beggar can finally be tackled.

Celly Smunt

bout time,i'm sick of going into work and having junkies who have money playing the sympathy card looking for free food and then messing the place up when you say no.

ALSO if one more homeless chap shakes my hand and gives me his life story before asking for change i'll...cry.

AnonoBoy

Can we make not replying to my texts promptly a crime too? I've been waiting hours today to hear back from a lad I'm buying some stuff off.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Should they really be criminalising the down-and-outs of society? I've never been harassed by the homeless so I can't see how this can be of any benefit.

*Looks at replies above*

Oh ****, I'm in for it now...

Celly Smunt

Belle Defeated Software wrote: »

Should they really be criminalising the down-and-outs of society? I've never been harassed by the homeless so I can't see how this can be of any benefit.

then you're lucky.

RobbieTheRobber

Your looking at this negatively.

If we were to look at this in a positive light we could say its for two reasons.

Reason 1: Is temporary housing for the homeless, Gardai find homeless people on the street begging and give them a bed and food for a night or week or whatever.

Reason 2: ( Reason 2 needs some background. At the moment in Ireland not many industries are prospering but one area that is prospering is robberies. I should know, im now able to spend more time at home posting on boards as a result. Well thats the background finsihed)

So reason 2 is that when these homeless people go to prison they will meet many of my associates who will be able to direct them or even aid them in getting into the more lucrative fields of drugs and robberies.


So with those things happening the government is housing and upskilling our homeless so they can provide for themselves.

Bravo Fianna Fail Bravo

Cookie_Monster

Belle Defeated Software wrote: »

Should they really be criminalising the down-and-outs of society? I've never been harassed by the homeless so I can't see how this can be of any benefit.

*Looks at replies above*

Oh ****, I'm in for it now...

Its a new approach, start with the easiest target and gradually work up to the bigger offenders

powerfade

They will be hit with a 400eur fine and if they cannot make this payment(most probable as they are ....beggars) they will ye put in prison for a month which will cost the taxpayer 10,000euro. Still think this is a great idea....

Alot easier just to tell the scumbag to go fcuk themselves or else give a euro to those that you feel are genuinely needful.

Guy:Incognito

Nodin wrote: »

I'm delighted that crimes such as pickpocketing, shop lifting, hand bag snatching, mugging, burgalry, heroin trafficking etc have dropped to such low levels that the menace of the beggar can finally be tackled.

Well unfortunately some of the peopel that are begging around towns and cities double or triple job to include a good few on your list. I see very few people who are actually begging because they just want a roof over their heads in Dublin.

pickarooney

'Aggressive begging' just like aggressive anything, should be a criminal offence, yes

It will see gardaí being given new powers including arrest without warrant to tell beggars to move on if they are found to be near business premises, ATMs or vending machines.

What does that mean? It's not even English.

NothingMan

they will ye put in prison for a month which will cost the taxpayer 10,000euro.

Curious to see where you got that figure from. 1 month for €10,000 euro seems maniacally high.

I would like to see beggars moved along swiftly, or at least taken into a dark alley and shown the business end of a womping stick but fines & prison sentences are a waste of time. Truth be told I almost welcome an Irish beggar, at least they're our own. I still won't give them sh1t, but at least thery're out own.

brianthebard

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Its a new approach, start with the easiest target and gradually work up to the bigger offenders

The government just wants to make sure everyone is doing their bit to help the deficit.

bonerm

Couldn't care less about regular beggers so long as only they're just sitting there looking for a handout and not bothering anyone .

However, it's the pushy junkies I run into at nightlinks (always male, always early 20s) who should be locked up. They think just cos I've had a few that they can get up into my space and run a guilttrip on me. They really don't know when to back down and when "no" means "no". I even had to chase one into temple bar and clock him to the ground for pickpocketing me once. Don't need that nonsence after a few pints! :mad:

faceman

how do you define agressive begging? I doubt the retailers give a toss either way. Im sure no matter form of begging is taking place "near" their premises (how do you define what is near a retail premises?" they dont want it. should we as a society be allowing the retailers define the moral/ethical standard when it comes to dealing with begging?

What about retailers who stuff junk mail through my letter box? What about retailers who try nab you as you walk by their store. Why cant we fine them? That feels like a form of begging too.

opinion guy

aggressive begging

So the government have finally decided to do something about the charity mugger problem (since they are the only ones I've ever seen aggressively begging). Brilliant its about time. If this is not aimed at charity muggers then I think its appalling.

faceman

bonerm wrote: »

Couldn't care less about regular beggers so long as only they're just sitting there looking for a handout and not bothering anyone .

However, it's the pushy junkies I run into at nightlinks (always male, always early 20s) who should be locked up. They think just cos I've had a few that they can get up into my space and run a guilttrip on me. They really don't know when to back down and when "no" means "no". I even had to chase one into temple bar and clock him to the ground for pickpocketing me once. Don't need that nonsence after a few pints! :mad:

how will that address the problem tho? Its not going to help them deal with their addictions, its just pushing it under the carpet. Im not saying you should be subjected to that form of begging either, it feels threatening when it happens. But a fine/jail is not the solution

CountingCrows

There really is a market for dirt cheap replica 2euro coins which would be great for giving to beggars. Ideally they'd have "F*ck off and leave me alone" inscribed on them.

bonerm

faceman wrote: »

how will that address the problem tho? Its not going to help them deal with their addictions, its just pushing it under the carpet. Im not saying you should be subjected to that form of begging either, it feels threatening when it happens. But a fine/jail is not the solution

I wasn't feeling threatened at all. Quite the opposite for that fella by the end of our encounter. I just think that no matter what your circumstances you can't just go around taking what's not yours. I'm not saying jail is the solution either but better there than out on the streets harassing people in a a way that crosses the line imho.

Maybe giving them a free pummeling is the solution. I never saw that particular chancer again fwiw.

aDeener

Nodin wrote: »

I'm delighted that crimes such as pickpocketing, shop lifting, hand bag snatching, mugging, burgalry, heroin trafficking etc have dropped to such low levels that the menace of the beggar can finally be tackled.

This law is obviously being brought in to get to the root of the problem

Biggins

I don't think there will be (nor should be) an all out war to target every street beggar but however the more aggressive ones, do have to be dealed with and I've no problem with that.

The persistent ones that are in your face at bank machines, looking over your shoulder, following you down the street and just pester you (till you finally give in) are too much.
Those up to now have had their way far too much when it comes to rights within the law and how they can be exploited.

The introduction of laws that help protect fellow citizens from this type of harassment, is a good thing.
There is a difference between seeing a beggar on the street sitting down begging and one that is standing up, in your face and won't go away upon you giving them an answer "yes" or "no" - and even then, maybe not going away!
The former at least gives you peaceful choice, the latter gives you unwarrented grief.
Any law that helps me to go about my daily workload without further unwarrented grief being shoved in my face, I welcome.

Lets not forget the difference between "passive begging" and "aggressive begging".
I have absolutely no problem with the first, I do with the second.
End of story.

phasers

The way the gardai operate I doubt much will change unless a begger is being agressive so I welcome it

kmick

Another one the Gardai wont enforce.
Pointless waste of time.

hooradiation

aDeener wrote: »

This law is obviously being brought in to get to the root of the problem

A law that stops people from being poor?

marvelous.

Why didn't we think of it sooner.

Biggins

kmick wrote: »

Another one the Gardai wont enforce.
Pointless waste of time.

...in your opinion.
I'd still rather it be on the law books than be unlegislated for and thus further opportunity for harassing the public exists.
Now at least there is further choice with more strength in the law.

The Gardi on the street can't win can they!
They haven't even got off the starting blocks with the new law coming in and yet there are those out to have a go at them already.
Give the average daily Garda on the beat a chance on this issue before you become judge and jury on their ass for gawds sake!

ScumLord

It may be supposedly intended for aggressive beggars but you can be sure it'll come to encompass all beggars. I think it's ridiculous, I've never had any trouble from beggars, I either give them money or not, if they don't leave it at that their told to **** off, most are down and outs and no threat, to me at least.

Many people seem to think people who aren't like them are offensive and that anyone who doesn't live up to their expectations should be cast out.

Morlar

ScumLord wrote: »

I've never had any trouble from beggars,

You are lucky. I have seen frail elderly people who unlike you do get bothered by aggesssive (predominantly roma) beggars. This law would help the gardai tackle the problems associated with it. If you look through AH you will find threads by people complaining about being hassled twice a day on their way to work and on their way from work by aggressive junkie beggars at luas machines etc. About bloody time it gets sorted in my view.

ScumLord

Morlar wrote: »

You are lucky. I have seen frail elderly people who unlike you do get bothered by aggesssive (predominantly roma) beggars. This law would help the gardai tackle the problems associated with it. If you look through AH you will find threads by people complaining about being hassled twice a day on their way to work and on their way from work by aggressive junkie beggars at luas machines etc. About bloody time it gets sorted in my view.

Well I'm of the opinion that it's up to the people that saw it happening to do something about it. I don't like the way every one's turning into scared sheep that expect some superstate to do everything for them. Within 50 years people will be expecting someone from the government to come round to their house and wipe their arse for them.

NothingMan

ScumLord wrote: »

Within 50 years people will be expecting someone from the government to come round to their house and wipe their arse for them.

Oooh, sign me up for that scheme. I'll be 74 by then so if they could change my adult nappy too that'd be super.

xsiborg

opinion guy wrote: »

So the government have finally decided to do something about the charity mugger problem (since they are the only ones I've ever seen aggressively begging). Brilliant its about time. If this is not aimed at charity muggers then I think its appalling.

absolutely agree with you on this one, i myself am so sick of being accosted by chariteeee mugs- "c'mere man, can i talk to ya for a minute? ahh go on, (cue mrs. doyle)". if i want to give you money, i will go over to you, theres no need to follow me for a good ten yards down the street! :mad:

Morlar

ScumLord wrote: »

Well I'm of the opinion that it's up to the people that saw it happening to do something about it.

I have stepped in when it comes to roma, there was also a time when it was not possible to do that in time. Your point here makes no sense.

You say people should do something about this and that is fine, but if it is ok for people to do something about this why is it not ok to permit the Gardai to handle it properly and in an organised manner ?

jumpguy

pickarooney wrote: »

'Aggressive begging' just like aggressive anything, should be a criminal offence, yes



What does that mean? It's not even English.

That's Irish journalism, that's what it is.

Anyway, yes, aggressive begging should be an offense. The lad sitting quietly outside Grafton Street with an empty coffee mug watching the world go by really shouldn't be harrassed that much.

aDeener

hooradiation wrote: »

A law that stops people from being poor?

marvelous.

Why didn't we think of it sooner.

Because one is poor makes it alright for them to pickpocket and mug?

ive no problem with beggars really i tend to ignore them, hard to ignore the ones that try to pickpocket you though. but thats alright because they are poor...... hooradation taking the side of those who commit crimes? ive seen it all, what happened you man?

aDeener

hooradiation wrote: »

A law that stops people from being poor?

marvelous.

Why didn't we think of it sooner.

plus not all beggars are poor, there are quite a number of professional beggars out there but dont you worry about that its only a "small minority"

CountingCrows

ScumLord wrote: »

Well I'm of the opinion that it's up to the people that saw it happening to do something about it. I don't like the way every one's turning into scared sheep that expect some superstate to do everything for them.

Beggars banging on your window when your parked at a busy junction, what are you meant to do?

hooradiation

aDeener wrote: »

Because one is poor makes it alright for them to pickpocket and mug?

ive no problem with beggars really i tend to ignore them, hard to ignore the ones that try to pickpocket you though. but thats alright because they are poor...... hooradation taking the side of those who commit crimes? ive seen it all, what happened you man?

No I'm just making fun of your silly idea that this will "get to the root of the problem" when it does nothing of the sort.

But no, clearly I'm "siding with criminals"! Not holding up your post for the nonsense it is, nope, that'd never be it.

starbelgrade

Spaaaaare annie chaange?

aDeener

hooradiation wrote: »

No I'm just making fun of your silly idea that this will "get to the root of the problem" when it does nothing of the sort.

But no, clearly I'm "siding with criminals"! Not holding up your post for the nonsense it is, nope, that'd never be it.

hmm so convicting beggars who pickpocket and mug will do nothing to sort the problem of pickpocketing and mugging. interesting train of thought there.

kmick

Biggins wrote: »

...in your opinion.
I'd still rather it be on the law books than be unlegislated for and thus further opportunity for harassing the public exists.
Now at least there is further choice with more strength in the law.
The Gardi on the street can't win can they!
They haven't even got off the starting blocks with the new law coming in and yet there are those out to have a go at them already.
Give the average daily Garda on the beat a chance on this issue before you become judge and jury on their ass for gawds sake!

I dont think any of the Gradai thought this one up. If you will bear with me for a minute it reminds me of a scene from The Big Lebowski

"[the Dude asks the Auto Circus Cop if there are any leads on who stole his old beat up car] Leads, yeah, sure. I'll just check with the boys down at the crime lab, they've got four more detectives working on the case. They got us working in shifts!"

So you are gonna have gardai on the beat wasting time hassling homeless people with mental illnesses for some pointless un-enforcable law. Whats the head guy up in mountjoy going to do when the garda deposits that case at the front door - send him back to the street thats what.

The Gardai do a good job but this is poilitically driven garbage.

stovelid

I'm in town a lot and you can avoid the vast majority of "beggars" if you so wish. The percentage that get in your face - if you even want to call it that - is very small.

I'd rather have a junkie panhandling me then have some zany student cunt jump in front of me when they're chugging for the summer.

aDeener

stovelid wrote: »

I'm in town a lot and you can avoid the vast majority of "beggars" if you so wish. The percentage that get in your face - if you even want to call it that - is very small.

I'd rather have a junkie panhandling me then have some zany student cunt jump in front of me when they're chugging for the summer.

as much as i detest chuggers, i really dount you would prefer the junkie bothering you. far higher percentage of a junkie biting or spitting at you than the chugger

stovelid

aDeener wrote: »

as much as i detest chuggers, i really dount you would prefer the junkie bothering you. far higher percentage of a junkie biting or spitting at you than the chugger

Maybe the junkie thing does happen, but I'm just saying that I've rarely been subject to what I would call hassle from junkies or other "beggars". I've been asked for money and whatnot, but only on one or two occasions have they tried to wheedle.

If the criteria for this new offense is just bugging citizens (instead of a judgmental crusade against undesirables), then apply it to chuggers and other street pests too.

Biggins

kmick wrote: »

I dont think any of the Gradai thought this one up. If you will bear with me for a minute it reminds me of a scene from The Big Lebowski

"[the Dude asks the Auto Circus Cop if there are any leads on who stole his old beat up car] Leads, yeah, sure. I'll just check with the boys down at the crime lab, they've got four more detectives working on the case. They got us working in shifts!"

So you are gonna have gardai on the beat wasting time hassling homeless people with mental illnesses for some pointless un-enforcable law. Whats the head guy up in mountjoy going to do when the garda deposits that case at the front door - send him back to the street thats what.

The Gardai do a good job but this is politically driven garbage.

I haven't seen "The Big Lebowski" so I can't comment on that and the context/comparison to our present situation.

You claim its "politically driven garbage" but I, myself have yet to see anyone mention it in the Dail, speak about it politically on the streets or any one TD try and make it an issue for voting gain at some stage!
So I reserve open judgement on your own opinion that its "politically driven garbage".


Why shouldn't the Gardi in all honestly review the present laws for harassment money begging people? Why shouldn't they?

Aren't the laws supposed to be reviewed and sometimes updated to come to terms with a changing society and the way it/some circumvents the legal loopholes to an abusive advantage against the rest of the public?

If this law (and laws in general) were NOT updated to cope with peoples new ways of possibly harassing others, by god we would hear from some similar folk (and victims) claiming (rightly in my mind) that they should - and why aren't they!
Again, the Gardi can't win! Dammed if you try to do something - and dammed if you do nothing.
There is no satisfying some folk and while that status quo goes on, those that abuse the law and invade our lives uninvited, carry on doing so...

gurramok

As soon as this becomes law i'm going to report two con-artist beggars who beg aggressively outside a Spar, Barrow St in Dublin and on the nearby bridge which just so happens to beside retail shops too. I'll also remind said retailers to report these chancers.

I've no problem with genuine cases. The other night on Dame st, one fella asked for change for the 'hostel', the other for change for the bus(all 60cents) and I promptly gave my coinage to both as they came across as genuine and above all asked nicely.

Now, i'd never give to that other crowd who can afford a flight into this country and beg as a career conning people and tarring genuine homeless with a bad name.

mannequinhands

Its not a outright ban i dont think (not 100 % sure ) just in certain places e.g bank machines smoking areas of pubs bus stops etc

Personally I welcome it because of the crimes like pickpocketing and handbags being robbed that can be associated with this sort of begging.In particular there is one group of people that are notoriously well known for pickpocketing while there begging and ive noticed that they have been picking on elderly people in particular lately so i believe the guards should have the right to do something about these sort of incidents.
There is also the aspect of the problems it could be causing on tourism and related industries

plein de force

i absolutely agree that something has to be done about the aggressive, intimidating begging but handing a €400 fine to someone who can't afford the price of a coffee isn't really going to work

ScumLord

aDeener wrote: »

hmm so convicting beggars who pickpocket and mug will do nothing to sort the problem of pickpocketing and mugging. interesting train of thought there.

Well it won't because pickpocketing isn't the cause of pickpocketing. There are many more social reasons that contribute to encouraging people to commit crime.

Biggins wrote: »

I haven't seen "The Big Lebowski" so I can't comment on that and the context/comparison to our present situation.

:eek: Your missing out.

Hank_Jones

I don't give money to any beggars, mainly due to the fact that you can't tell which of these are genuine and which aren't.
I do give generously to charity though. Surely if these people are in enough trouble to be on the streets begging then they can go to a charity or get help somewhere.

It doesn't bother me if they make it a crime, means that I won't be getting hassled by some smack head every time I'm standing at a bus stop.
Of course the majority of these people on the streets are already claiming as much as they can get off the state and see begging as a second income.

Entrepreneurs, if you will...

Niall Keane

It costs €90k a year to house someone in prison. Some estates down in Longford have 3 beds going for that. Longford people are always complaining about the government doing nothing to stem the flow of people leaving their county. So why not use the NAMA estates to house the bums/ unfortunates? Tidies up Dublin and solves Longford's problems? Might be of benefit to the gene pool down there too? Opium production could become a new cash crop down there, hell you're basically importing expert consultants to advise.

opinion guy

xsiborg wrote: »

absolutely agree with you on this one, i myself am so sick of being accosted by chariteeee mugs- "c'mere man, can i talk to ya for a minute? ahh go on, (cue mrs. doyle)". if i want to give you money, i will go over to you, theres no need to follow me for a good ten yards down the street! :mad:

Following you is bad. I've had charity muggers block my path and aggressively question where I'm in such a rush too. I can't remember what I said but I was in a rush so didn't say much. Next time I get their detaisl and make a formal complaint to their charity. Or if there is a garda nearby I tell him.

aDeener wrote: »

as much as i detest chuggers, i really dount you would prefer the junkie bothering you. far higher percentage of a junkie biting or spitting at you than the chugger

I've never been bothered by a junkie like this. only ones that I've seen be openly aggressive are charity muggers and with them its rountine.