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Begging soon to be a crime with a prison sentence

faceman

From today's news:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/retailers-welcome-impending-crackdown-on-begging-443520.html

Breakingnews.ie wrote:

Retailers welcome impending crackdown on begging

The retail community is welcoming proposed new legislation aimed at cracking down on aggressive begging.

According to reports, the Government is planning on bringing in the new legislation which will see fines and prison sentences being imposed on people who ask for money in certain places.

It will see gardaí being given new powers including arrest without warrant to tell beggars to move on if they are found to be near business premises, ATMs or vending machines.

Homeless charities have condemned the proposal however, saying that the Government efforts would be better spent tackling the causes of poverty.

The last time this was proposed, it was shot down as it was deemed to be unconstitional.

Not look for anecdotal comments on random beggars that you meet, but what are your views on the treatment of beggars should they be charged?

Personally I think its a sad day if the government has decided that the best way to deal with begging is fines (lol) or arrests.

What do you think?

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Morlar

ScumLord wrote: »

Well I'm of the opinion that it's up to the people that saw it happening to do something about it.

I have stepped in when it comes to roma, there was also a time when it was not possible to do that in time. Your point here makes no sense.

You say people should do something about this and that is fine, but if it is ok for people to do something about this why is it not ok to permit the Gardai to handle it properly and in an organised manner ?

jumpguy

pickarooney wrote: »

'Aggressive begging' just like aggressive anything, should be a criminal offence, yes

What does that mean? It's not even English.

That's Irish journalism, that's what it is.

Anyway, yes, aggressive begging should be an offense. The lad sitting quietly outside Grafton Street with an empty coffee mug watching the world go by really shouldn't be harrassed that much.

aDeener

hooradiation wrote: »

A law that stops people from being poor?

marvelous.

Why didn't we think of it sooner.

Because one is poor makes it alright for them to pickpocket and mug?

ive no problem with beggars really i tend to ignore them, hard to ignore the ones that try to pickpocket you though. but thats alright because they are poor...... hooradation taking the side of those who commit crimes? ive seen it all, what happened you man?

aDeener

hooradiation wrote: »

A law that stops people from being poor?

marvelous.

Why didn't we think of it sooner.

plus not all beggars are poor, there are quite a number of professional beggars out there but dont you worry about that its only a "small minority"

CountingCrows

ScumLord wrote: »

Well I'm of the opinion that it's up to the people that saw it happening to do something about it. I don't like the way every one's turning into scared sheep that expect some superstate to do everything for them.

Beggars banging on your window when your parked at a busy junction, what are you meant to do?

hooradiation

aDeener wrote: »

Because one is poor makes it alright for them to pickpocket and mug?

ive no problem with beggars really i tend to ignore them, hard to ignore the ones that try to pickpocket you though. but thats alright because they are poor...... hooradation taking the side of those who commit crimes? ive seen it all, what happened you man?

No I'm just making fun of your silly idea that this will "get to the root of the problem" when it does nothing of the sort.

But no, clearly I'm "siding with criminals"! Not holding up your post for the nonsense it is, nope, that'd never be it.

starbelgrade

Spaaaaare annie chaange?

aDeener

hooradiation wrote: »

No I'm just making fun of your silly idea that this will "get to the root of the problem" when it does nothing of the sort.

But no, clearly I'm "siding with criminals"! Not holding up your post for the nonsense it is, nope, that'd never be it.

hmm so convicting beggars who pickpocket and mug will do nothing to sort the problem of pickpocketing and mugging. interesting train of thought there.

kmick

Biggins wrote: »

...in your opinion.
I'd still rather it be on the law books than be unlegislated for and thus further opportunity for harassing the public exists.
Now at least there is further choice with more strength in the law.
The Gardi on the street can't win can they!
They haven't even got off the starting blocks with the new law coming in and yet there are those out to have a go at them already.
Give the average daily Garda on the beat a chance on this issue before you become judge and jury on their ass for gawds sake!

I dont think any of the Gradai thought this one up. If you will bear with me for a minute it reminds me of a scene from The Big Lebowski

"[the Dude asks the Auto Circus Cop if there are any leads on who stole his old beat up car] Leads, yeah, sure. I'll just check with the boys down at the crime lab, they've got four more detectives working on the case. They got us working in shifts!"

So you are gonna have gardai on the beat wasting time hassling homeless people with mental illnesses for some pointless un-enforcable law. Whats the head guy up in mountjoy going to do when the garda deposits that case at the front door - send him back to the street thats what.

The Gardai do a good job but this is poilitically driven garbage.

stovelid

I'm in town a lot and you can avoid the vast majority of "beggars" if you so wish. The percentage that get in your face - if you even want to call it that - is very small.

I'd rather have a junkie panhandling me then have some zany student cunt jump in front of me when they're chugging for the summer.

aDeener

stovelid wrote: »

I'm in town a lot and you can avoid the vast majority of "beggars" if you so wish. The percentage that get in your face - if you even want to call it that - is very small.

I'd rather have a junkie panhandling me then have some zany student cunt jump in front of me when they're chugging for the summer.

as much as i detest chuggers, i really dount you would prefer the junkie bothering you. far higher percentage of a junkie biting or spitting at you than the chugger

stovelid

aDeener wrote: »

as much as i detest chuggers, i really dount you would prefer the junkie bothering you. far higher percentage of a junkie biting or spitting at you than the chugger

Maybe the junkie thing does happen, but I'm just saying that I've rarely been subject to what I would call hassle from junkies or other "beggars". I've been asked for money and whatnot, but only on one or two occasions have they tried to wheedle.

If the criteria for this new offense is just bugging citizens (instead of a judgmental crusade against undesirables), then apply it to chuggers and other street pests too.

Biggins

kmick wrote: »

I dont think any of the Gradai thought this one up. If you will bear with me for a minute it reminds me of a scene from The Big Lebowski

"[the Dude asks the Auto Circus Cop if there are any leads on who stole his old beat up car] Leads, yeah, sure. I'll just check with the boys down at the crime lab, they've got four more detectives working on the case. They got us working in shifts!"

So you are gonna have gardai on the beat wasting time hassling homeless people with mental illnesses for some pointless un-enforcable law. Whats the head guy up in mountjoy going to do when the garda deposits that case at the front door - send him back to the street thats what.

The Gardai do a good job but this is politically driven garbage.

I haven't seen "The Big Lebowski" so I can't comment on that and the context/comparison to our present situation.

You claim its "politically driven garbage" but I, myself have yet to see anyone mention it in the Dail, speak about it politically on the streets or any one TD try and make it an issue for voting gain at some stage!
So I reserve open judgement on your own opinion that its "politically driven garbage".

Why shouldn't the Gardi in all honestly review the present laws for harassment money begging people? Why shouldn't they?

Aren't the laws supposed to be reviewed and sometimes updated to come to terms with a changing society and the way it/some circumvents the legal loopholes to an abusive advantage against the rest of the public?

If this law (and laws in general) were NOT updated to cope with peoples new ways of possibly harassing others, by god we would hear from some similar folk (and victims) claiming (rightly in my mind) that they should - and why aren't they!
Again, the Gardi can't win! Dammed if you try to do something - and dammed if you do nothing.
There is no satisfying some folk and while that status quo goes on, those that abuse the law and invade our lives uninvited, carry on doing so...

gurramok

As soon as this becomes law i'm going to report two con-artist beggars who beg aggressively outside a Spar, Barrow St in Dublin and on the nearby bridge which just so happens to beside retail shops too. I'll also remind said retailers to report these chancers.

I've no problem with genuine cases. The other night on Dame st, one fella asked for change for the 'hostel', the other for change for the bus(all 60cents) and I promptly gave my coinage to both as they came across as genuine and above all asked nicely.

Now, i'd never give to that other crowd who can afford a flight into this country and beg as a career conning people and tarring genuine homeless with a bad name.

mannequinhands

Its not a outright ban i dont think (not 100 % sure ) just in certain places e.g bank machines smoking areas of pubs bus stops etc

Personally I welcome it because of the crimes like pickpocketing and handbags being robbed that can be associated with this sort of begging.In particular there is one group of people that are notoriously well known for pickpocketing while there begging and ive noticed that they have been picking on elderly people in particular lately so i believe the guards should have the right to do something about these sort of incidents.
There is also the aspect of the problems it could be causing on tourism and related industries

plein de force

i absolutely agree that something has to be done about the aggressive, intimidating begging but handing a €400 fine to someone who can't afford the price of a coffee isn't really going to work

ScumLord

aDeener wrote: »

hmm so convicting beggars who pickpocket and mug will do nothing to sort the problem of pickpocketing and mugging. interesting train of thought there.

Well it won't because pickpocketing isn't the cause of pickpocketing. There are many more social reasons that contribute to encouraging people to commit crime.

Biggins wrote: »

I haven't seen "The Big Lebowski" so I can't comment on that and the context/comparison to our present situation.

:eek: Your missing out.

Hank_Jones

I don't give money to any beggars, mainly due to the fact that you can't tell which of these are genuine and which aren't.
I do give generously to charity though. Surely if these people are in enough trouble to be on the streets begging then they can go to a charity or get help somewhere.

It doesn't bother me if they make it a crime, means that I won't be getting hassled by some smack head every time I'm standing at a bus stop.
Of course the majority of these people on the streets are already claiming as much as they can get off the state and see begging as a second income.

Entrepreneurs, if you will...

Niall Keane

It costs €90k a year to house someone in prison. Some estates down in Longford have 3 beds going for that. Longford people are always complaining about the government doing nothing to stem the flow of people leaving their county. So why not use the NAMA estates to house the bums/ unfortunates? Tidies up Dublin and solves Longford's problems? Might be of benefit to the gene pool down there too? Opium production could become a new cash crop down there, hell you're basically importing expert consultants to advise.

opinion guy

xsiborg wrote: »

absolutely agree with you on this one, i myself am so sick of being accosted by chariteeee mugs- "c'mere man, can i talk to ya for a minute? ahh go on, (cue mrs. doyle)". if i want to give you money, i will go over to you, theres no need to follow me for a good ten yards down the street! :mad:

Following you is bad. I've had charity muggers block my path and aggressively question where I'm in such a rush too. I can't remember what I said but I was in a rush so didn't say much. Next time I get their detaisl and make a formal complaint to their charity. Or if there is a garda nearby I tell him.

aDeener wrote: »

as much as i detest chuggers, i really dount you would prefer the junkie bothering you. far higher percentage of a junkie biting or spitting at you than the chugger

I've never been bothered by a junkie like this. only ones that I've seen be openly aggressive are charity muggers and with them its rountine.

NothingMan

Niall Keane wrote: »

It costs €90k a year to house someone in prison.

According to what I can find it costs $20K to keep a prisoner in Florida and £31k in England. I find it hard to believe Ireland is so significantly higher. WHere are you getting your figures?

MaybeLogic

opinion guy wrote: »

I've never been bothered by a junkie like this. only ones that I've seen be openly aggressive are charity muggers and with them its rountine.

Them chuggers are a bit much,alright.
One of them locked her jaws on my heel one time and I had to drag her nearly 20 yards before she let go.

admiralofthefleet

its about time and it had better be policed too. im fed up standing at the bus stop being asked every few minutes for change and smokes

xsiborg

maybe OT, maybe not:

but i wonder could it be included in the legislation that charity collectors wielding buckets be removed from behind checkout operators at supermarkets such as dunnes and tesco?

incidentally i prefer the ones that DON'T man-handle my groceries as I am quite capable of packing my own groceries and do not want the air freshener thrown in with the fish!

i'd sooner pay for my groceries nowadays using my laser card than hand over money i don't feel i can spare to these bucket collectors. charity is about choosing to give, not being guilt tripped into feeling you have to!

Biggins

plein de force wrote: »

i absolutely agree that something has to be done about the aggressive, intimidating begging but handing a €400 fine to someone who can't afford the price of a coffee isn't really going to work

Absolutely true however the true aggressive beggars/chuggers will consider that time spent behind bars will be time and money lost!
Besides the fact that the professional aggressive beggars/chuggers can probably afford more so than the average sitting down street poor person, the fines imposed (a deterrent in itself for them to behave more often) - I'm assuming - I could be wrong.

oppenheimer1

gurramok wrote: »

As soon as this becomes law i'm going to report two con-artist beggars who beg aggressively outside a Spar, Barrow St in Dublin and on the nearby bridge which just so happens to beside retail shops too. I'll also remind said retailers to report these chancers.

I've no problem with genuine cases. The other night on Dame st, one fella asked for change for the 'hostel', the other for change for the bus(all 60cents) and I promptly gave my coinage to both as they came across as genuine and above all asked nicely.

There is no such thing as a genuine case in Ireland.

Tchaikovsky

NothingMan wrote: »

According to what I can find it costs $20K to keep a prisoner in Florida and £31k in England. I find it hard to believe Ireland is so significantly higher. WHere are you getting your figures?

The plasma TVs, XBoxes and mini-fridges in the cells won't pay for themselves, now!

R0ot

Just the Romanian gypsy beggars that's all that need to be dealt with.

Tchaikovsky

R0ot wrote: »

Just the Romanian gypsy beggars that's all that need to be dealt with.

"Pavee Point are on the phone.. "

bnt

If there's to be a Stick, there should be a Carrot too. What is the Guvmt going to do for those in genuine need of assistance? Not a handout, since that would be abused - and if I was truly down and out, I wouldn't be that fussy about the form in which help came.