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Serious question: Can someone explain something?

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭Reindeer


    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    You sorta proved his point with that.

    *Sigh*

    Next time I will be sure to surround my statement with something along the lines of "*SARCASM*" for those of us that may tend to be a bit less bright...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    No need to quote long post

    You seem to keep going on about this thing of me not having a Phd in Psychology. So I'll ask again as you chose to ignore the question yet again. Where did you study for your career in psychiatry?

    How am I being base or getting personal? In your last couple of posts you've been condescending and used words like laughable, pathetic ect. What have I said that was personal?

    You are adding nothing to the debate, although you obviously don't see that. Try reading back over your posts in the thread. You have basically been trying to make one single point without offering any reasoning for it and then refused to address any points made by anyone that run counter to your own. How many times has a question been put to you in this thread so far that you have just ignored because you know you have no reasonable response?

    The deal is this pretty much man. Some people (like yourself) would much prefer to believe that some people are just born evil because it helps you deal with things like this when they happen, instead of having to admit to the possibility that all humans are potentially capable of incredible acts of "evil" just like all people are potentially capable of incredible acts of good. You choose to believe that the two kids involved here are just "evil" incarnate because it makes it easier to hate them, I choose to believe that peoples personalities and sense of morality are formed in direct relation to the experiences of thier lives. Like I said previously, it's possible some people are born with certain predetermined likelyhoods to develop personality traits. But to try and say your life experiences don't shape what kind of person you turn out to be is psychopathic. I'm right, you are wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    strobe wrote: »
    The deal is this pretty much man. Some people (like yourself) would much prefer to believe that some people are just born evil.... I choose to believe that peoples personalities and sense of morality are formed in direct relation to the experiences of thier lives... I'm right, you are wrong.

    or maybe, just maybe, you're both partly right and there is both nature and nurture involved in the development of psychopathy??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    ,.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    sam34 wrote: »
    there is both nature and nurture involved in the development of psychopathy??

    That's exactly what I'm saying. (or trying to)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    Reindeer wrote: »
    *Sigh*

    Next time I will be sure to surround my statement with something along the lines of "*SARCASM*" (or use an emoticon) for those of us with dazzling intelligence but who are unfamiliar with a new posters M.O.

    FYP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Antbert


    Why would you read that rubbish? Read a proper book ffs... one that is not biased and edited by idiots on the net.
    Argh. It was a sarcastic comment. I can't believe it came across as sincere.
    As for the rest of your post, I agree.
    But I'll let it go because of that.

    Cheers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Antbert


    aDeener wrote: »
    awh yeah the poor little divils and their circumstances sure tis no wonder they did what they did.:rolleyes:
    Not even slightly what I said.

    I just don't have the usual blustering sensationalist bloodthirsty response as most people. This of course makes me a psychopath sympathiser.

    My point was that they were subject to terrible circumstances. They are only children. I'm not nearly well qualified enough to get into the psychology argument. If they can be rehabilitated, then the best efforts should be made to rehabilitate them.

    Is that clear enough not to warrent a sarcastic smiley face? Or should I attempt to explain again? You'll have to try to see past thinking I'm sympathising with them I think.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    No I am not, I am carefully reading what people are saying, then discussing it with them.
    :confused:
    When confronted, you flip out
    Em... that's what you're doing. I really don't see Strobe doing that.
    So you want to stop getting personal because it's kinda boring
    Strobe is getting personal? :confused:
    Antbert wrote: »
    Argh. It was a sarcastic comment. I can't believe it came across as sincere.
    Boards really needs an irony smiley - it shouldn't, but it does.
    Antbert wrote: »
    Not even slightly what I said.

    I just don't have the usual blustering sensationalist bloodthirsty response as most people. This of course makes me a psychopath sympathiser.
    That happens a lot on these threads all right: people choosing to assume you've loads of sympathy for the perpetrators rather than reading/actually thinking about your post for a split second - rolleyes emoticon mandatory. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    sam34 wrote: »
    or maybe, just maybe, you're both partly right and there is both nature and nurture involved in the development of psychopathy??

    Well, it's pretty conclusive that nurture has nothing to do with psychopaths. It's that simple. It's fact. It's there in writing if people care to research it properly.
    Antbert wrote: »
    Argh. It was a sarcastic comment. I can't believe it came across as sincere.


    But I'll let it go because of that.

    Cheers.

    Impossible (in most cases) to pick up on sarcasim via text ;)
    strobe wrote: »
    That's exactly what I'm saying. (or trying to)

    If that is the case, then you are 100% wrong. Research psycopaths, tell me what you discover. You will find that nurturing has nothing to do with it.
    strobe wrote: »
    You seem to keep going on about this thing of me not having a Phd in Psychology. So I'll ask again as you chose to ignore the question yet again. Where did you study for your career in psychiatry?

    Assumptions assumptions... lol.
    You are adding nothing to the debate

    I have added hard unbiased fact to the debate, not some outlandish opinion bullshít like some people... :rolleyes:
    You have basically been trying to make one single point

    Can you tell me what that one single point is?
    without offering any reasoning for it and then refused to address any points made by anyone that run counter to your own.

    I have explained myself on several occasions, bringing forth factual information to try and educate some of the misinformed people of this thread.
    How many times has a question been put to you in this thread so far that you have just ignored because you know you have no reasonable response?

    You tell me ;)
    Some people (like yourself) would much prefer to believe that some people are just born evil because it helps you deal with things like this when they happen

    Lol... again, you are making crazy outlandish assumptions. Where have I said that some people are born "evil"? Lol...
    instead of having to admit to the possibility that all humans are potentially capable of incredible acts of "evil" just like all people are potentially capable of incredible acts of good.

    Did I ever deny that?
    You choose to believe that the two kids involved here are just "evil" incarnate because it makes it easier to hate them

    Mind pointing out to me where I said that these kids are "evil" and where I expressed my hatred for them? Oh, you can't? Why is that? I didn't say any of that? lol...
    I choose to believe that peoples personalities and sense of morality are formed in direct relation to the experiences of thier lives. Like I said previously, it's possible some people are born with certain predetermined likelyhoods to develop personality traits.

    If you actually read my posts, you would understand that I have said the exact same thing, but you go further and make claims that are completely wrong... I am putting you straight :)
    But to try and say your life experiences don't shape what kind of person you turn out to be is psychopathic. I'm right, you are wrong.

    Life experiences do not turn you into a psychopath, but that can cause other disorders which some people confuse with psychopathy...

    I quoted all my posts and highlighted the most important parts... Read them again. It's very very obvious that you haven't taken the time to read any of this thread and just threw out your opinions on the matter... That opinion being that conditioning can cause you to become a psychopath... which is quite wrong.

    As you can see from the following, I have repeated some of my points (facts) a few times, but some people still refuse to read them, or are they simply ignored for some reason?
    Conditioning I believe he meant. Psychopaths are born as they are, scientists believe and there is no cure. One could ask, is it their fault? Are there any known psychopaths that co exist with "normal" people? Who are not hate fueled monsters?

    Society does not have a great understanding of psychopaths, nor do they have a good way of dealing with them. "lock 'em up for life" etc etc. It's not always the best way to deal with psychopaths. To know how to deal with them effectively and efficiently, more research needs to be done. Labotomy's worked, but well... that's not very PC, now is it? :P
    You are right, it's pretty rare, but... we have a serious misunderstanding of this defect. There are no cures and therapy doesn't work. If anything Therapy gives the psycopath new skills to persuade and charm people.

    Psychopaths are born with some sort of a nuerological defect. Pre emptive detention/execution is pretty stupid. Can't punish somebody for something they may or may not do, unless they solicit to do harm.

    I don't think your opinion matters when you are trying to debunk hard fact... I never heard of psycopaths inheriting a "psychopath" gene. See above for simple explanation. Conditioning can have an influence, but the complexity surrounding the reasons why psychopaths are the way they are runs a lot deeper.

    You couldn't be more wrong. Fortunately, educated people have drawn the real conclusion, which is explained briefly above. Imagine we have average joe soap comming up with conclusions, would make for a great Mad Max prequel.

    Conditioning and exposure to non "normal" things may influence ones actions and perception of the world, it may desensitise you, but that does not make you a psychopath, that is a differant thing altogether.

    That is not conditioning, that is being exposed to one very traumatic event which is unlikely to turn you insane. They may be scarred for life, psycologicaly but you don't turn into a psycopath due to being exposed to such trauma.

    They sure are, but what causes this? It's not uncommon to have a family of "scumbag parents" and the kids are fine or vise versa...
    That's one case, but you cannot say that all cases are the same, that would be quite insane indeed. While these children were conditioned to do very horrible deeds, not all children are conditioned the same. You must study each case seperately, no two will be the same, similar? Yes. Not all children like this are conditioned, nor are they all psycopaths.

    It's quite possible. There is nothing to suggest that these boys would have acted differantly given the exact same conditions and scenario were to arise. The human brain and human behaviour is so complex that it is very very hard for us to understand it. There's a lot of grey area (pun intended :P). You or anybody else cannot say what would have happened under differant circumstances.

    They sure are. Your personality has developed over time due to your surroundings and influences such as, family, friends, films, books etc etc. You may be effected by something quite small and insignificant and not know it, in other words, we are all influenced differantly as we all percieve things differantly. Do realise that there is more to play though, you may have presets in your personality which you may not be able to control. Deficits in certain chemicals, which can be controlled by modern drugs. Some things have not yet reached the stage of finding a cure, as we still lack the understanding.

    We have come a long way from drilling "evil" spirits from peoples heads and performing lobotomies on patients, but we have a very long way to go yet.
    There is no cure for psycopaths. Unfortunately. There are therapies and the likes, but some would say they are not effective at all. That's if the child is a psycopath. If the child has been conditioned into being evil and corrupt, there are many ways which that child can be "cured", but how much has the child been conditioned. It is also down to the individual person if they can recover from the negative conditioning they were exposed to.
    Antbert wrote: »
    Not even slightly what I said.

    I just don't have the usual blustering sensationalist bloodthirsty response as most people. This of course makes me a psychopath sympathiser.

    It's a load of balls, isn't it? If you have an opinion on something then you are a part of the PC brigade... usual bullshít spurted from the mouths of the witch hunters...
    My point was that they were subject to terrible circumstances. They are only children. I'm not nearly well qualified enough to get into the psychology argument. If they can be rehabilitated, then the best efforts should be made to rehabilitate them.

    They sure were... and until we find out if the older child is a psychopath, we cannot say for how their conditioning has influenced their actions.
    Is that clear enough not to warrent a sarcastic smiley face? Or should I attempt to explain again? You'll have to try to see past thinking I'm sympathising with them I think.

    It's impossible to explain to some people. Some just simply cannot understand, and never will. ;)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,887 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    I dont think they should be given the death penalty, thats just silly & i dont agree with that whole thing anyway. Nor do i think they should be given life imprisonment.
    But they should be put away till they're in there late 20's, the system will inevitably fail again if its a slap on the wrist sentence like 3 or 4 years in a young offenders type institution.
    There has to be a line drawn, an example made.

    Whats this talk about oh its within us all to be capable of such acts? That really is a pointless discussion. Yes we all may be capable of savage behavior in certain circumstances but because most of us are civilized creatures we don't allow ourselves to commit such violent acts. These two tumors decided to torture & almost kill a couple of kids on a whim & then casually walked away without a care in the world. 20 years minimum i would say.


    Btw - Its funny that these sort of threads turn into ego battles. I know more than you...no i know more than you. Honestly some of you need to stop going on like you're criminal psychologists. Its very easy to harvest masses of relevant information from the web & make it appear that its your own work.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Well, it's pretty conclusive that nurture has nothing to do with psychopaths. It's that simple. It's fact. It's there in writing if people care to research it properly.


    pretty conclusive? fact? really?

    a quick pubmed search throws up some things that show your "fact" is not actually a fact:

    J Consult Clin Psychol. 2005 Jun;73(3):389-99.

    Predicting future antisocial personality disorder in males from a clinical assessment in childhood.
    Lahey BB, Loeber R, Burke JD, Applegate B.

    Department of Psychiatry, University of Chicago, Chicago, IL 60637, USA. blahey@yoda.bsd.uchicago.edu

    It is essential to identify childhood predictors of adult antisocial personality disorder (APD) to target early prevention. It has variously been hypothesized that APD is predicted by childhood conduct disorder (CD), attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), or both disorders. To test these competing hypotheses, the authors used data from a single childhood diagnostic assessment of 163 clinic-referred boys to predict future APD during early adulthood. Childhood Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (3rd ed., rev.; American Psychiatric Association, 1987) CD, but not ADHD, significantly predicted the boys' subsequent APD. An interaction between socioeconomic status (SES) and CD indicated that CD predicted APD only in lower SES families, however. Among children who met criteria for CD, their number of covert but not overt CD symptoms improved prediction of future APD, controlling for SES. (c) 2005 APA, all rights reserved.

    PMID: 15982137 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


    Compr Psychiatry. 2001 Jul-Aug;42(4):272-82.

    The adult antisocial syndrome with and without antecedent conduct disorder: comparisons from an adoption study.
    Langbehn DR, Cadoret RJ.

    Department of Psychiatry and Biostatistics, University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA 52246, USA.

    DSM antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) requires a retrospective diagnosis of conduct disorder-historical behavior not present in everyone with adult ASPD criteria. Using adoption study data, we examined the impact of this requirement on biological and environmental risk associations. We also compared clinical correlates of adult antisocial behavior with and without prior conduct disorder. We defined three subgroups: DSM-III ASPD (n = 30), adult antisocials without conduct disorder (n = 25), and controls (n = 142). By design, the sample had a high incidence of biological parent ASPD, which was partially confounded with fetal alcohol exposure. We compared the associations of both of these putative risk factors with subgroup membership after controlling for gender and adverse adoptive environment. We also examined differences in two sociopathy scales and the incidence of co-occurring affective, alcohol, and other substance use disorders. Finally, we explored differences in individual antisocial symptoms. Having an antisocial biological parent was a specific risk factor for ASPD. In contrast, fetal alcohol exposure, male gender, and adverse environment were associated with the adult antisocial syndrome, regardless of conduct disorder history. The two antisocial groups were similar with respect to sociopathy scales, co-occurring diagnoses, and the incidence of most individual symptoms. However, several adult and conduct disorder symptoms had significant specific associations with biological or environmental background or their interaction. Phenotypic expression of the biological-possibly genetic-risk for ASPD appears to be manifest before adulthood. The influence of other risk factors may not depend on antecedent conduct disorder. Despite this, we could not detect clinically important differences between the two sociopathic groups. The conduct disorder requirement therefore may be more relevant to etiological than clinical understanding of adult antisocial behavior. Copyright 2001 by W.B. Saunders Company


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Sam34 is a psychiatrist - I'm gonna go by what she says.

    If they were adults, my view of justice here would be life imprisonment, but since they're young kids - if utterly vile - I think how this is addressed needs to be more complex.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,887 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    You know what? It doesn't matter how much you try to bamboozle someone with copy & paste studies & research, it really doesnt deal with the situation at hand.
    We can waffle about the maybes & what ifs all night but what does it actually achieve? Speculating on the contributing factors that lead to this disgusting incident will just go round & round in circles till the cows come home.

    What would you consider a fair punishment for the two monsters? Yes you do have to consider their age but you also have to consider the fact that the crime committed is far from child-like.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    You know what? It doesn't matter how much you try to bamboozle someone with copy & paste studies & research, it really doesnt deal with the situation at hand.
    We can waffle about the maybes & what ifs all night but what does it actually achieve? Speculating on the contributing factors that lead to this disgusting incident will just go round & round in circles till the cows come home.

    whats your issue with me having copied and pasted the research??:confused:

    another poster claimed that it was "fact", backed up in research papers, that environment had nothing to do with teh development of psychopathy, and then challenged people to look it up - i looked it up and found thsoe two papers, along with many others, which debunk his "fact", so i think it contributes a lot to the discussion that ahs been going on for pages here.


    "deal with the situation at hand"? its not up to me to deal with, or punish, those involved.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 882 ✭✭✭fulhamfanincork


    How do you view a spoiler?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,887 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    sam34 wrote: »
    whats your issue with me having copied and pasted the research??:confused:

    "deal with the situation at hand"? its not up to me to deal with, or punish, those involved.

    Its not so much that i have an issue with it, its that im seeing a lot of people using this material as a platform to essentially imply that their opinion is more valid than someone else's. I personally try to avoid copy & paste responses.

    Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion on the matter but i think we've exhausted discussing the background circumstances relating to the perpetrators.
    Im just trying to move the thread on a bit.

    What would you consider an appropriate punishment?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Its not so much that i have an issue with it, its that im seeing a lot of people using this material as a platform to essentially imply that their opinion is more valid than someone else's. I personally try to avoid copy & paste responses.

    Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion on the matter but i think we've exhausted discussing the background circumstances relating to the perpetrators.
    Im just trying to move the thread on a bit.

    What would you consider an appropriate punishment?

    all im doing by providing research papers is showing a previous poster that his facts (which he didnt substantiate) are not as sound as he would like to portray.

    its not up to me to be judge and jury here, and without knowing more i wouldnt dream of making a judgement.

    i'm not sitting on the fence here, but as its such a serious issue i wouldnt like to make a decision when in possession of only half the facts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    Antbert wrote: »
    Not even slightly what I said.

    I just don't have the usual blustering sensationalist bloodthirsty response as most people. This of course makes me a psychopath sympathiser.

    My point was that they were subject to terrible circumstances. They are only children. I'm not nearly well qualified enough to get into the psychology argument. If they can be rehabilitated, then the best efforts should be made to rehabilitate them.

    Is that clear enough not to warrent a sarcastic smiley face? Or should I attempt to explain again? You'll have to try to see past thinking I'm sympathising with them I think.

    nope no need for sarcastic smiley face, your condescending second question done the job quite well.

    so what if they were subject to terrible circumstances, manys the child has grown up with porn and had abusive parents, not too many of them have done what this pair has done.

    the fact that they and their family get anonymity for life is a very disgusting aspect of this - all at £2m for the british taxpayer too. They done the crime, they are who they are and society has a right to know who they are and what they did when they come out


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    aDeener wrote: »
    They done the crime,

    And they have done their time.
    aDeener wrote: »
    they are who they are and society has a right to know who they are and what they did when they come out

    Society shouldn't have the right to know anything about them.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    sam34 wrote: »
    another poster claimed that it was "fact", backed up in research papers, that environment had nothing to do with teh development of psychopathy, and then challenged people to look it up - i looked it up and found thsoe two papers, along with many others, which debunk his "fact", so i think it contributes a lot to the discussion that ahs been going on for pages here.

    "deal with the situation at hand"? its not up to me to deal with, or punish, those involved.

    From what I have read, it is the consensus amoung researchers that Psychopathy is a neurological defect, it's with the patient since birth.

    Am I disagreeing with conditioning altering your personality and turning you into a raging lunatic? A violent monster? No... because that is very possible. I am trying to, for the ilinformed, illustrate the differance between psychopathy and other personality disorders, similar to psychopathy caused by conditioning...

    Robert D Hare. Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of Psychopaths Among Us (1993).

    There are plenty of books on the subject, for both sides. The old Nature V Nurture debate... it will rage on for an eternity.
    sam34 wrote: »
    i'm not sitting on the fence here, but as its such a serious issue i wouldnt like to make a decision when in possession of only half the facts.

    For the same reason I have kept my personal opinion out of the debate too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭mistermouse


    I'm far from saying that serious crimes weren't committed here.

    My points were, we seem to have much less violent society here in the past compared to Britain, excluding Northern Ireland troubles and excluding the vile acts of abuse in the church.

    I have no rose tinted glasses on but certainly society seems to be grappling with alot of new problems, its been a while since gaming and films have been blamed but quite alot of teenage violence now seems the norm and we have become a very political correct country.

    Excuses are being toughed out, I think life in prison which may end up being 15 years is the least this crime deserves. If they can be let loose in any circumstance just because they reach 18, then there's something wrong. Their Barrister thinks they are turning the corner, its his job to say that but many will give him the benefit of the doubt, cos it seems to be the right or new way of doing things.

    Parental responsibility is not near what it used to be and many criminals and minority groups now seem well able to get around or in some cases use the law to their advantage.

    I still think without looking at the issue we will at somepoint have the same problem, be even less prepared to deal with it and have loads of cronies giving us Politically Correct excuses for the criminals behaviour.

    I don't think some of the stuff that happened in Ireland (as vile and deplorable as it was) is nearly as depraived as what these kids perprotrated.

    Infact what is the point of criticising the catholic Chruch for allowing abuse if we end up having law makers, Barristers, some Physologists and alot of people that have sympathy for these children.

    Paedophilia and these types of crime should be deployed, prosecuted and never be excused.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    What are you basing the "politically correct" (in relation to Irish society and excuses for criminal behaviour) claims on?

    It implies this is the motive behind lenient sentencing - but is it even one of the motives? It's surely more complex than that. As for people having sympathy for them: surely exceedingly rare? Ascertaining a reason why they did these horrible things is not necessarily sympathetic.

    I think, for instance, sentencing young kids to life is too simplistic an approach - I think it should be gauged by the time they reach adulthood whether society still needs to be protected from them. If it does, then they should not be released.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭mistermouse


    No I am not claiming that politcal correctness is causing any sympathy or punishement here in Ireland directly.

    Political Correctness has been quite rampant in Ireland. Some of it deserved even.

    My points over a couple of replies and largely based on previous posters comments were more based on will Ireland experience more of this in the future, will we have the New Irish way of dealing with it which largely seems to be Politically Correct.

    Theres an excuse thrown up for almost anything and an example often irrelevant. Earlier my thoughts on these types of problems was thrown out using Clerical Abuse. I hold this crime and Clerical Abuse wholely separate, deplor both but I think there is somewhat of a degree of severity difference also.

    Let me inpart qualify this, a grown man abusing a child must be punished accordingly, nowadays they do not have the power, and society has changed much to the better in this, these two, who seem to have been very intelligent when it comes to looking to destroying evidence, and appear to have been very difinitive when carrying out their crime, appear to be much more disturbed, granted maybe its an upbringing but certainly very calculated.

    The fact that society should have good morals is not a catholic thing, cannot be disregarded because some in the Catholic Church were animals and all Irish are not catholics, nor are all catholics Child Abusers.


    I stated that they should not get out just because they are 18. I'm not saying never. I once was threatened by a parent for not selling his 13 year old an 18 year old game, it was the law, not my opinion.

    It would be quite accurate to say that in Northern Ireland many younsters did not get too violent or into trouble because they feared punishment beatings etc. Its a fact that will now be replied to that the IRA had their own revelations recently amongst other attrocities.

    But taking Northern Ireland as a prime example a lot of people fear that if policing devolution isn't resolved a lot of nationalists would risk peace to see the IRA resume local security as it were.


    My question is what has Ireland done as a country to keep these types of crime from happening and what has it done to deal with it when if it does.

    Otherwise we will end up with vacum that it seems no one but vigilanti's will fill and many may support. I know of many crimes commited in Ireland and some by sections of the population, that were I to state them here would be thrown out because of political correctiveness. Were I to mention some, I'd be banned.

    I do know what I am talking about and think there is little hope of the law tackling them for fear of polical correctness. Its a fact.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    OutlawPete wrote: »
    And they have done their time.



    Society shouldn't have the right to know anything about them.

    All other criminals are on record, even though they have done their time, why the hell should this rotten pair be any different? Should all criminals who have committed heinous crimes thus be given new identities when they are released, at the taxpayers expense?

    So you think you or anyone else for that matter does not have the right to know that they are living next door to convicted sadistic torturers? away an' ****e :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I'm far from saying that serious crimes weren't committed here.

    My points were, we seem to have much less violent society here in the past compared to Britain, excluding Northern Ireland troubles and excluding the vile acts of abuse in the church..

    Only during times of high emmigration, for obvious reasons.
    quite alot of teenage violence now seems the norm ..

    ...always was.

    The drug violence is new to here, in fairness.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    sam34 wrote: »
    all im doing by providing research papers is showing a previous poster that his facts (which he didnt substantiate) are not as sound as he would like to portray.

    its not up to me to be judge and jury here, and without knowing more i wouldnt dream of making a judgement.

    i'm not sitting on the fence here, but as its such a serious issue i wouldnt like to make a decision when in possession of only half the facts.

    what more possible facts could you want? you have read all that they did to the 2 young lads, which there are no excuses for


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    aDeener wrote: »
    what more possible facts could you want? you have read all that they did to the 2 young lads, which there are no excuses for

    For not the first time in this thread I have to ask - do you believe in abolishing the concept of the age of responsibility


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    Nodin wrote: »
    For not the first time in this thread I have to ask - do you believe in abolishing the concept of the age of responsibility

    In my opinion it should definitely be reduced. It does not take until 16 or 17 or whatever the hell it is currently to know the difference between right and wrong.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    What age would you suggest?


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