Serious question: Can someone explain something?

slipss

WindSock wrote: »

There is no amount of social conditioning that produces psychopaths. They can exist in any spectrum of society.

Two born into the same family? Unless you're suggesting psychopaths inherit a gene that makes them the way they are it's obviously environmental. It's possible that some people are more inclined to psychopathic behaviour or to commiting actions we deem as "evil" from birth but I'd feel comfortable in saying that if these two kids grew up in completely different circumstances they wouldn't be the people they are today and wouldn't have done something like this. It's not pinko liberal bullsh1t to draw that conclusion it's common sense.

I heard about the case a while ago, it's horrific, if it was my kids that had this done to them whoever did it would be dead on site.

givyjoe81

extra-ordinary_ wrote: »

It's not 'normal' human behaviour, but it is human behaviour and these boys were born the same as the rest of us.

Give me two new-born babies, and I'm quite sure I could develop them into far worse monsters than these two boys.

By that logic, the two kids who were almost killed in this circumstance will themselves turn out to be psychopaths, and that simply isnt true, nor will it ever be. The fact is incidents like this are extremely rare, despite the number of bad/scumbag parents and scumbag kids, some people are just nasty/evil, whatever you want to call it.

Biggins

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Its not really a serious question is it, Biggins?
If it was you'd have asked it in Humanities or Politics and you'd have got a serious debate where your opinion would likely have been rebutted.
If it was a serious question you wouldn't have asked it in the immediate aftermath of this courtcase (knowing full well that the proximity of the case would lead to the boards nutjobs trying to outdo each other thinking up violent punishments).

No, its a serious question being put to the general public, not just to what some MIGHT see as a more psychophysical section.

I have not heard about this case previously. When I read what I read, the question posed re-emerged into my mind.
Why shouldn't it be posed here? Those with any good humanity and decency will reply one way or another in good faith. So far they have done so.
There has been no "funny" or "smart"" replies so far (and I very appreciate the genuine thoughts and feelings expressed by others here).
So far, fellow members here are showing themselves that they are up to a serious debate every so often. Well done to them.

slipss

givyjoe81 wrote: »

By that logic, the two kids who were almost killed in this circumstance will themselves turn out to be psychopaths, and that simply isnt true, nor will it ever be. The fact is incidents like this are extremely rare, despite the number of bad/scumbag parents and scumbag kids, some people are just nasty/evil, whatever you want to call it.

So it's your opinion that if the two boys were raised on a banana plantation in Brazil by a loving family and therfor every experience in thier life from the day they were born was infinately different that they still would have been capable and willing to do what they did? Really?

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

Serious question: Can someone explain something why young psychopaths (...............)

And they've been diagnosed as such?

Ickle Magoo

slipss wrote: »

So it's your opinion that if the two boys were raised on a banana plantation in Brazil by a loving family and therfor every experience in thier life from the day they were born was infinately different that they still would have been capable and willing to do what they did? Really?

How do you prove they wouldn't?

WindSock

slipss wrote: »

Two born into the same family? Unless you're suggesting psychopaths inherit a gene that makes them the way they are it's obviously environmental. It's possible that some people are more inclined to psychopathic behaviour or to commiting actions we deem as "evil" from birth but I'd feel comfortable in saying that if these two kids grew up in completely different circumstances they wouldn't be the people they are today and wouldn't have done something like this. It's not pinko liberal bullsh1t to draw that conclusion it's common sense.

I heard about the case a while ago, it's horrific, if it was my kids that had this done to them whoever did it would be dead on site.

I suppose you have a point there about them being brothers. Perhaps though it is the older or more dominant one that made the evil decisions and the younger one went along with it out of fear or respect for his authority or whatever. Like the Bulger case, they said one was the psychopathic decsion maker and the other was his follower.

pickarooney

givyjoe81 wrote: »

By that logic, the two kids who were almost killed in this circumstance will themselves turn out to be psychopaths, and that simply isnt true, nor will it ever be. The fact is incidents like this are extremely rare, despite the number of bad/scumbag parents and scumbag kids, some people are just nasty/evil, whatever you want to call it.

Have a look at the armies of child soldiers in places like Sierra Leone and the monstrous acts they carry out on their fellow human-beings. They can't all be born evil. They're conditioned, from a very young age, to be evil, like these guys.

MaybeLogic

slipss wrote: »

So it's your opinion that if the two boys were raised on a banana plantation in Brazil by a loving family and therfor every experience in thier life from the day they were born was infinately different that they still would have been capable and willing to do what they did? Really?

Why not?
I'm of the opinion psychopaths are nurtured,myself.
They usually have the emotion beaten out of them at a young age.

Ickle Magoo

Nodin wrote: »

And they've been diagnosed as such?

IIRC the child psychologist on the case said the younger brother had the potential to develop into a psychopath - which would infer neither are actually psychopaths at the moment, or at least no one has diagnosed them as such. I'm not actually not sure of the legalities of being able to label a still growing and changing child's personality as life long psychosis, I suspect it's frowned upon.

givyjoe81

slipss wrote: »

So it's your opinion that if the two boys were raised on a banana plantation in Brazil by a loving family and therfor every experience in thier life from the day they were born was infinately different that they still would have been capable and willing to do what they did? Really?

The likely hood would of course be reduced.. do you really think that there aren't complete psycho's out there who were raised by loving, good people?! How many of the recent wife killers were from broken families? (Now i know they aint pscyho's, they still committed murder..) What is the background of these two kids anyway? Do we know for a fact their parents were scum, bad parents etc.

'Evil' people dont just come from 'broken families..

WindSock

pickarooney wrote: »

Have a look at the armies of child soldiers in places like Sierra Leone and the monstrous acts they carry out on their fellow human-beings. They can't all be born evil. They're conditioned, from a very young age, to be evil, like these guys.

I was trying to think of an example, but I was afraid to Godwin the thread. Thanks for that one.

However it is those that lead them that are to be questioned on the state of their mental health.

givyjoe81

pickarooney wrote: »

Have a look at the armies of child soldiers in places like Sierra Leone and the monstrous acts they carry out on their fellow human-beings. They can't all be born evil. They're conditioned, from a very young age, to be evil, like these guys.

A war torn country in africa, and a council estate in England are very different places, the lines between right and wrong are far more blurred in the former, many of the kids from the former not having any education whatsoever, to compare the two is just silly and way too simplistic.

You are effectively saying.. 'ah sure its not their fault.. blame the parents'.. bullsh1t, society does play its part in this, by justifying or making excuses for sh1t like this, people, whether children or not need to take responsibility for their actions. Especially such callous pre meditated acts.

slipss

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

How do you prove they wouldn't?

Is that an actual question you're asking me or is it retorical? How can anyone prove an alternate reality.......It just seems to me that in my short and colourful life peoples personality (and dogs for that matter) are products of thier environment more than fully preprogammed entities.

Biggins

Nodin wrote: »

And they've been diagnosed as such?

Good point as regarding them in particular. Its one I can't answer due to lack of access by the public to their assessed mental state records.
I don't use them in particular - just as a possible example given the deep level of underlying aggression and lack of humanity possessed by such sick individuals. Nothing more.

I posed (and still do) the general question as regarding what we see as possible "phyco's", and if indeed such mental disturbed citizens are allowed to access all facilities and come in contact with people, should their possible mental state be kept buried in a sealed report and their old identities/actions and history unknown there after?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Nonsense! To put it mildly.
Thats just politically correct bollox. We aren't all born the same, not by any stretch of the imagination, nor are we all capable of this. This is sick and disgusting and down right evil, just like the 2 little bastards who done it. I'm not anything like that and either are 99% of people

You are right, it's pretty rare, but... we have a serious misunderstanding of this defect. There are no cures and therapy doesn't work. If anything Therapy gives the psycopath new skills to persuade and charm people.

uncleoswald wrote: »

So you are saying they are born like this? Kind of like a disability? Maybe there is a test you can develop that you can give all children to find this evil gene and then they can be locked up/exterminated before they can harm anyone...?

Psychopaths are born with some sort of a nuerological defect. Pre emptive detention/execution is pretty stupid. Can't punish somebody for something they may or may not do, unless they solicit to do harm.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Its not really a serious question is it, Biggins?
If it was you'd have asked it in Humanities or Politics and you'd have got a serious debate where your opinion would likely have been rebutted.
If it was a serious question you wouldn't have asked it in the immediate aftermath of this courtcase (knowing full well that the proximity of the case would lead to the boards nutjobs trying to outdo each other thinking up violent punishments).

The fcuk is the point of this post?

slipss wrote: »

Two born into the same family? Unless you're suggesting psychopaths inherit a gene that makes them the way they are it's obviously environmental.

I don't think your opinion matters when you are trying to debunk hard fact... I never heard of psycopaths inheriting a "psychopath" gene. See above for simple explanation. Conditioning can have an influence, but the complexity surrounding the reasons why psychopaths are the way they are runs a lot deeper.

It's possible that some people are more inclined to psychopathic behaviour or to commiting actions we deem as "evil" from birth but I'd feel comfortable in saying that if these two kids grew up in completely different circumstances they wouldn't be the people they are today and wouldn't have done something like this. It's not pinko liberal bullsh1t to draw that conclusion it's common sense.

You couldn't be more wrong. Fortunately, educated people have drawn the real conclusion, which is explained briefly above. Imagine we have average joe soap comming up with conclusions, would make for a great Mad Max prequel.]

Conditioning and exposure to non "normal" things may influence ones actions and perception of the world, it may desensitise you, but that does not make you a psychopath, that is a differant thing altogether.

givyjoe81 wrote: »

By that logic, the two kids who were almost killed in this circumstance will themselves turn out to be psychopaths,

That is not conditioning, that is being exposed to one very traumatic event which is unlikely to turn you insane. They may be scarred for life, psycologicaly but you don't turn into a psycopath due to being exposed to such trauma.

and that simply isnt true, nor will it ever be. The fact is incidents like this are extremely rare, despite the number of bad/scumbag parents and scumbag kids, some people are just nasty/evil, whatever you want to call it.

They sure are, but what causes this? It's not uncommon to have a family of "scumbag parents" and the kids are fine or vise versa...

Ickle Magoo

slipss wrote: »

Is that an actual question you're asking me or is it retorical? How can anyone prove an alternate reality.......It just seems to me that in my short and colourful life peoples personality (and dogs for that matter) are products of thier environment more than fully preprogammed entities.

It was an actual question. If you are going to use an alternative reality to try and prove your point, I was just curious how that works. It's easy to say if someone had X, Y or Z that whatever would never have happened but I'm not sure how you actually prove that is categorically the case - there for rendering the point moot. I suspect both upbringing and natural predilection plays a part - some people are raised in horrendous situations and abused beyond comprehension and don't go on to hurt other people. There seems to have to be a particular set of circumstances at work for these, thankfully rare, cases to occur and how a child is raised seems to be only one par of that.

givyjoe81

Giana Sour Housetop wrote: »

You couldn't be more wrong. Fortunately, educated people have drawn the real conclusion, which is explained briefly above. Imagine we have average joe soap comming up with conclusions, would make for a great Mad Max prequel.]

QUOTE]

I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but i dont think its deserved, just who the hell are you to imply that i and others here are not educated?! Even if you are an expert on the matter, which i highly doubt, your opinion is just one, and im sure they are many other 'experts' who would disagree/disprove your assertions...

Yours sincerely..

Joe Soap.:rolleyes:

uncleoswald

Giana Sour Housetop wrote: »

Pre emptive detention/execution is pretty stupid. Can't punish somebody for something they may or may not do, unless they solicit to do harm

I was been sarcastic. Should have used the eye roll smiley :rolleyes:

Biggins

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Seriously. Post 2 blamed various world governments, and suggested the kids should be butchered for organs.
Post 7 wanted to execute them by dissolving them in acid.
Post 8 wanted to execute them as well (by relatively humane bullet).
By post 40+ the answers will be less sensible.

As I understand you wanted a discussion on the rights or wrongs of highprofile criminals getting a new identity after time served.
Good luck.

People give an emotional response.
We are human and we have to accept that.
Those people that replied with the posts above, if you sat them down at a table I'm quite sure they would be willing to also give more straight, frank and progressive/genuine responses too based on the way the actual law and society works, and they being fully aware of the fuller picture.

Allow people to be true to their nature - so far I have seen not one post that has tried to turn this thread into a general "funny" talk/topic.

...and we are up to post number 50+ now

anniehoo

I wish i hadnt read the spoilers ..so upsetting

A dog gets put down if it even so much as bites a human...yet these cruel, sadistic f*cks will probably have more money spent on them in legal protection, security,incarceration etc and will probably be set up with new lives after being released. It makes my blood boil....actually theres an idea for those cnuts..:mad::mad:

Nodin

givyjoe81 wrote: »

You are effectively saying.. 'ah sure its not their fault.. blame the parents'.. bullsh1t, society does play its part in this, by justifying or making excuses for sh1t like this, people, whether children or not need to take responsibility for their actions. Especially such callous pre meditated acts.

....by which logic there should be no age of responsibility, in that any age is considered capable of giving informed consent....

Biggins wrote:

I posed (and still do) the general question as regarding what we see as possible "phyco's", and if indeed such mental disturbed citizens are allowed to access all facilities and come in contact with people, should their possible mental state be kept buried in a sealed report and their old identities/actions and history unknown there after?.

You seem to exclude the possibility of rehabilitation/cure, ignore the fact that we may often be referring to children, and the power of the state to detain persons it deems a danger to themselves and others.

anniehoo wrote:

A dog gets put down if it even so much as bites a human...yet these cruel, sadistic f*cks will probably have more money spent on them in legal protection, security,incarceration etc and will probably be set up with new lives after being released. It makes my blood boil....actually theres an idea for those cnuts..

So if I am attacked by a 10 year old, its proportionate for me to react to them as I would to an adult?

Executive Steve

c - 13 wrote: »

I'm sorry but I don't believe that. What are the "right circumstances" for doing that to two children of a similar age ? There are none, that isn't normal human behavior.

Yes it is.

givyjoe81

Nodin wrote: »

So if I am attacked by a 10 year old, its proportionate for me to react to them as I would to an adult?

They werent just attacked.. they were tortured, to withing an inch of their life. Do you seriously believe there is any hope for these kids being productive, healthy members of society, crucially.. do you honestly believe if and when they are released that they wont pose a danger to society?!

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

pickarooney wrote: »

Have a look at the armies of child soldiers in places like Sierra Leone and the monstrous acts they carry out on their fellow human-beings. They can't all be born evil. They're conditioned, from a very young age, to be evil, like these guys.

That's one case, but you cannot say that all cases are the same, that would be quite insane indeed. While these children were conditioned to do very horrible deeds, not all children are conditioned the same. You must study each case seperately, no two will be the same, similar? Yes. Not all children like this are conditioned, nor are they all psycopaths.

slipss wrote: »

So it's your opinion that if the two boys were raised on a banana plantation in Brazil by a loving family and therfor every experience in thier life from the day they were born was infinately different that they still would have been capable and willing to do what they did? Really?

It's quite possible. There is nothing to suggest that these boys would have acted differantly given the exact same conditions and scenario were to arise. The human brain and human behaviour is so complex that it is very very hard for us to understand it. There's a lot of grey area (pun intended :P). You or anybody else cannot say what would have happened under differant circumstances.

MaybeLogic wrote: »

Why not?
I'm of the opinion psychopaths are nurtured,myself.

Ain't we lucky that opinions don't really matter here Fact matters...

They usually have the emotion beaten out of them at a young age.

What a load of misinformed crap. Where did you get that from?

givyjoe81 wrote: »

A war torn country in africa, and a council estate in England are very different places, the lines between right and wrong are far more blurred in the former, many of the kids from the former not having any education whatsoever, to compare the two is just silly and way too simplistic.

Very very true.

You are effectively saying.. 'ah sure its not their fault.. blame the parents'.. bullsh1t, society does play its part in this, by justifying or making excuses for sh1t like this, people, whether children or not need to take responsibility for their actions. Especially such callous pre meditated acts.

slipss wrote: »

Is that an actual question you're asking me or is it retorical? How can anyone prove an alternate reality.......It just seems to me that in my short and colourful life peoples personality (and dogs for that matter) are products of thier environment more than fully preprogammed entities.

They sure are. Your personality has developed over time due to your surroundings and influences such as, family, friends, films, books etc etc. You may be effected by something quite small and insignificant and not know it, in other words, we are all influenced differantly as we all percieve things differantly. Do realise that there is more to play though, you may have presets in your personality which you may not be able to control. Deficits in certain chemicals, which can be controlled by modern drugs. Some things have not yet reached the stage of finding a cure, as we still lack the understanding.

We have come a long way from drilling "evil" spirits from peoples heads and performing lobotomies on patients, but we have a very long way to go yet.

givyjoe81 wrote: »

I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but i dont think its deserved, just who the hell are you to imply that i and others here are not educated?!

Well, ye kinda make it pretty obvious with crazy outlandish assumptions and "conclusions" that couldn't be further from the truth. I am not saying you, or anybody else for that matter, are completely uneducated, but your lack of understaning on the subject would suggest to me you haven't a clue... would I be right? You are just guessing...

Even if you are an expert on the matter

I'll take that as a compliment

which i highly doubt, your opinion is just one

Did I say it was my opinion? I don't think I did... I recited fact, not fictional bullshít that I read in the Sun newspaper...

and im sure they are many other 'experts' who would disagree/disprove your assertions...

It's what us experts "do"

Nodin

givyjoe81 wrote: »

They werent just attacked.. they were tortured, to withing an inch of their life. Do you seriously believe there is any hope for these kids being productive, healthy members of society, ?!

Unless data to the contrary arises, yes.

givyjoe81 wrote: »

crucially.. do you honestly believe if and when they are released that they wont pose a danger to society?!

Should they manifest a condition which would indicate they do pose a danger, they can be detained, as far as I understand it.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Nodin wrote: »

You seem to exclude the possibility of rehabilitation/cure, ignore the fact that we may often be referring to children, and the power of the state to detain persons it deems a danger to themselves and others.

There is no cure for psycopaths. Unfortunately. There are therapies and the likes, but some would say they are not effective at all. That's if the child is a psycopath. If the child has been conditioned into being evil and corrupt, there are many ways which that child can be "cured", but how much has the child been conditioned. It is also down to the individual person if they can recover from the negative conditioning they were exposed to.

uncleoswald wrote: »

I was been sarcastic. Should have used the eye roll smiley :rolleyes:

Sarcasim, impossible to pick up in text

Le King

Society protects these people when really they should be burnt alive in the middle of their town. I feel no sympathy for these people. They should be locked up for life. No chance of parole or nothing. No privileges, no nothing.

Rot in hell, yas sick bastards.

givyjoe81

Giana Sour Housetop wrote: »

That's one case, but you cannot say that all cases are the same, that would be quite insane indeed. While these children were conditioned to do very horrible deeds, not all children are conditioned the same. You must study each case seperately, no two will be the same, similar? Yes. Not all children like this are conditioned, nor are they all psycopaths.



It's quite possible. There is nothing to suggest that these boys would have acted differantly given the exact same conditions and scenario were to arise. The human brain and human behaviour is so complex that it is very very hard for us to understand it. There's a lot of grey area (pun intended :P). You or anybody else cannot say what would have happened under differant circumstances.



Ain't we lucky that opinions don't really matter here Fact matters...



What a load of misinformed crap. Where did you get that from?



Very very true.





They sure are. Your personality has developed over time due to your surroundings and influences such as, family, friends, films, books etc etc. You may be effected by something quite small and insignificant and not know it, in other words, we are all influenced differantly as we all percieve things differantly. Do realise that there is more to play though, you may have presets in your personality which you may not be able to control. Deficits in certain chemicals, which can be controlled by modern drugs. Some things have not yet reached the stage of finding a cure, as we still lack the understanding.

We have come a long way from drilling "evil" spirits from peoples heads and performing lobotomies on patients, but we have a very long way to go yet.



Well, ye kinda make it pretty obvious with crazy outlandish assumptions and "conclusions" that couldn't be further from the truth. I am not saying you, or anybody else for that matter, are completely uneducated, but your lack of understaning on the subject would suggest to me you haven't a clue... would I be right? You are just guessing...



I'll take that as a compliment



Did I say it was my opinion? I don't think I did... I recited fact, not fictional bullshít that I read in the Sun newspaper...



It's what us experts "do"

Please do explain what parts of my 'assumptions' are outlandish or completely wrong.. also please do state how and why you are such an authority on the subject? I'm not saying you aren't but id like to see evidence of justification for such arrogant and condoscending posts dismissing the education, intelligence or class of other posters.

What did i read in the Sun newspaper?! Does your expertise and highly advance brain give you access to mind reading powers? The facts im basing my opinions on, are the ones presented on ITN news.

While you may assert your views as 'being' expert, the issue is far from black and white, and neither you or other 'professionals' can explain such ghastly human behaviour, unless you have developed some device that can read into the minds of these people, your opinions are little more than guesswork either, albeit 'educated'...

Biggins

Nodin wrote: »

...You seem to exclude the possibility of rehabilitation/cure, ignore the fact that we may often be referring to children, and the power of the state to detain persons it deems a danger to themselves and others...

Very true and good points made.