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E-Cigarettes - The original thread

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  • 12-01-2010 5:42pm
    #1
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    People may not approve of e-cigarettes for whatever reason but I think it's worth being aware of their existence and what they bring to the table in terms of quitting the real thing so heres some info. I have put together.

    What are E-Cigarettes?
    E-Cigarettes, more and more known as PVs (Personal Vaporizers), are gadgets that burn liquid nicotine producing a nicotine vapour which you can then inhale. It is intended to produce a similar sensation to that of smoking a cigarette. The idea is to allow a nicotine addict to inhale it without the over 4000 chemicals, tar & tobacco of a real cigarette. Heres a picture of the mini e-cigarette, one of the most common, taken from wikipedia:-

    800px-Components_of_a_MiniCiggy_e-cigarette.jpg

    A - is the LED (the colour varies) which lights up when you are inhaling/manually operating the e-cig or to warn of low battery and so on.
    B - is the battery which powers the e-cig
    C - is the atomizer which contains a wick which is heated to vapourise the liquid nicotine
    D - is the cartridge which contains some material which can absorb the liquid nicotine - this will then vapourise when it is heated by the atomizer

    Are They Healthy?
    The big question. If you search you'll find plenty of info. on it. On the one hand you have the FDA in the USA which claimed their tests showed trace amounts of TSNAs (tobacco-specific nitrosamines) and they warned against using them. There was a very big reaction from the e-cigarette community and the tests were criticised for not comparing the results to similar substances found in nicotine inhalers for example.

    Health New Zealand found traces along similar lines to the FDA but compared them to other products and found the levels to be well within safe levels. Health Canada warned against nicotine poisoning which is a bit OTT imo (if there is a danger of nicotine poisoning from e-cigs then there is just as much danger from patches, inhalers and the real thing). Some countries have banned e-cigarettes completely. I personally found this post on the e-cigarette forum very informative but I would also assume that the poster may well be biased - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/health-safety-e-smoking/42094-electronic-cigarettes-safe.html.

    Unfortunately it's an area clouded with bias and differing agenda but hopefully more and more studies will be done over time.

    My decision to buy an e-cigarette really came down to this. If I am happy to smoke a cigarette with tar, tobacco and a possible 4000+ harmful substances in it then I am damn well happy to smoke an e-cigarette which contains a substance (PG - Propylene Glycol) found in many food products, an amount of nicotine I control plus a small possiblity of TSNAs which well be very small levels if any.

    O.k. What should I buy?
    People discuss e-cigarettes in a few different terms. Battery life, vapour production and throat hit would be the big 3 imo. I think the clincher if you want to use these as an actual replacement for cigarettes would be the throat hit but thats just me. There are 3 main types of e-cigs:-

    1. The pen style - like a pen basically and tends to have slightly better battery performance than the mini/super mini
    2. The mini or super mini - more like a real cigarette in size but battery tends to have slightly worse performance than the penstyle
    3. The Hybrid - hybrids are generally just a housing for larger batteries that can have any of the common atomizers from other e-cig types attached to them. They can house anything from a similar battery power to the 2 types above or something with more voltage which tends to give more vapour and throat hit. In either case the batteries tend to last much longer than the penstyle or minis.

    The other differences between models are:-

    1. Battery operation - can be manual (press a button to heat and vaporize) or automatic (detects when you are sucking on the cig and engages atomizer)
    2. Cartomizers - a few models now have the cartridge and atomizer all in one. The advantage is that you are using a new atomizer with each new cartridge. Atomizers tend to have a life span of 5/6 weeks so this is handy. The downside is you can't refill the cartridges yourself.

    There is a huge post on the e-cigarette forums covering all of these differences and much more - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/36180-wonderful-world-vaping-illustrated-guide-e-cigs-parts-1-through-6-a.html

    I bought my first e-cig a week ago, a DSE901. I read and watched several reviews all of which rated it very highly particularly for beginners. It's one of the cheaper options too. I got mine for €34.99 at thevapourstore.ie. I haven't had mine for long (a week). First impressions were good but in the last few days I have found it quite inconsistent in terms of getting a decent throat hit.

    The DSE901 uses an automatic battery and I suspect this may lead to the inconsistency. The other possible issue is that the atomizer is defective which is not uncommon. It's a strong possibility since the DSE901 is so highly regarded. I have ordered a 3 pack of DSE901 atomizers to see if they make any difference. Regardless of the problems I have had I have not smoked a real cigaretter since I got it. Any time I get a craving a quick blast of this has been just about enough.

    Today I have been trying out my second purchase which is a Titan 510. This seems to be the current overall favorite amongst new and experienced vapers. Had to bring the terminology in eventually. E-cigarette users call themselves vapers not smokers. I ordered it hoping it would provide the throat hit I think I need to keep off the real cigs (or analogs as the vapers call them).

    Having tried it so far I think it's fantastic. Great throat hit on the high strength cartridges and not bad on the medium. Haven't tried the low strength. You can also taste the flavour much more clearly. Yes there are flavours. The tobacco flavour that comes with the 510 actually has a kind of caramel tinge which is quite nice.

    One final point I think worth mentioning is that you may well find yourself inhaling more nicotine using e-cigarettes simply because the higher strength cartridges will give the best throat hit. I'm o.k. with that and will move to a lower strength gradually. In fact I find medium strength almost good enough so I may go with that for now.

    Is this a good method to give up real cigarettes?
    Well in my case time will tell. I have smoked 20 a day for the last 23 years approx. and have never succeeded in stopping for more than a couple of days. My original plan was to buy an e-cigarette and see if I could reduce my real cigarette consumption to 2 or 3 a day. I have so far been successful in not smoking any.

    E-cigarettes are not an approved method for giving up smoking. They are at the very least an effective replacement. Since you are only inhaling water vapour containing nicotine you will get the benefits you would from giving up real cigarettes, i.e. sense of smell returning, breathing more easily and so on. You are getting a similar sensation to smoking with much less of the harmful effect. There is less of a buzz from e-cigs. I suspect that to be because some chemical in real cigarettes is the real cause of head rush rather than nicotine. It doesn't bother me in any case.

    Someone asked how long I expected to be using e-cigarettes. It's very hard to know when you have been a smoker for over 20 years. It's simply a positive to be on something far less harmful. Nicotine is addictive but on it's own is not very harmful from what I have read (again you should research this yourself - I am not a doctor or an expert on nicotine). I won't lie it's entirely possible I could end up a long term vaper trying different models and flavours of liquids. I can live with that far more easily than continuing the way I have been.

    As long as you walk into the e-cigarette world with your eyes open I don't see why anyone couldn't get huge benefits from making the switch. I really can't believe these things are not bigger. They have the potential to save many many lives imo and the sooner proper testing is done to ensure they are completely safe the better. Until then I am happy to take a punt on it. It's up to you to decide for yourself.

    Final Words of Advice
    I bought the DSE901 starter pack which included 2 automatic batteries, 1 atomizer, 1 mains charge for the batteries and 5 cartridges of varying strengths. If someone asked me now what I would recommend I would suggest a Titan 510, a USB passthrough (connect and power the e-cigfrom the PC) and a charge case (cigarette box shaped charge for your batteries). USB passthroughs and portable chargers are available for most models.

    If the starter pack you buy does not include an extra atomizer I would buy one anyway.

    Also consider getting a few e-liquids of different flavours to try out. You can get refillable cartridges or refill the ones that come with the starter pack (not necesarily with all models but certainly the ones I mentioned here). Refilling can be cheaper and if you find a nice flavour you may be able to try out zero nicotine liquids where the flavour is enough to keep you happy.

    Whether you use pre-filled cartridges or refill them yourself you will save a good chunk of cash. There will be a reaonable initial outlay for the parts etc. but from then on you'll be mainly buying liquid or cartridges and the odd replacement battery/atomizer so it will be much cheaper than the real thing.

    Finally I went for the white cigarette look when buying. You can buy most models in a variety of colours. I think I should in hindsight have gone for black or a non-cigarette related colour. You can even get pink for some if you wish. E-cigarettes are legal indoors, on airplanes and so on. This is excellent but I think if you plan to use them inside you are better off with something that is obviously not a real cigarette. Again just my opinion.

    Some Links
    http://www.thevapourstore.ie - The only Irish supplier I am aware of. Excellent customer support, very fast delivery and just the other day added the DSE905 to their list which is a hybrid for the DES901 amongst others. I would imagine it would provide a very consistent throat hit and may try it at some point.

    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ - tons of info, reviews, mods, forums for the suppliers (including thevapourstore.ie) where you can get quick feedback from questions about their products

    http://www.theelectroniccigarette.co.uk/ - where I bought my Titan 510. Again good service and delivery (which was good from the UK considering the weather the last few days)

    http://www.e-cig-reviews.com/ - I like this guys video reviews but more importantly he has loads of discount codes you can use on the sites he lists. There is one there for theelectroniccigarette.co.uk. He also has some tutorials and advice videos. Well worth a look.

    http://www.eastmall.net - This is a US site but the prices are great. You may find it cheaper than the others including delivery. I am awaiting stuff I just ordered so I can't report on delivery speed etc. They do multi-packs of batteries and atomizers and particulary manual batteries for the DSE901 which I am keen to try so that attracted me to them.

    Thats about it. At some point I might try a Hybrid and report on it but the technology here is very young. I fully expect it to get better and better over the coming years.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,267 ✭✭✭opr


    Any update on how you are getting on ?

    Opr


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    I have some more info and updates. Didn't think anyone was interested really.

    Still vaping :) Off real cigs for 10 days now. I have ordered various flavour e-juice along with some 0 nicotine mixing liquid so I can try flavours and mix stronger stuff down to different strengths. They should arrive in the next few days.

    I found a site selling the 510 e-cig for £25STG which is a great price. Really worth a try at that price. http://www.vaporstation.co.uk/model-detail.php?id=45. Ordered one for a mate at work based on that price.

    There is one definite danger here and thats becoming obsessed with the whole thing. I have spent a fair bit of cash on liquids, spare parts and so on. It's become a hobby really but I couldn't be happier and there is geniune excitement for me in that I really never thought I would give the real things up. I find myself almost giddy at the thought I'm off them for 10 days and have no desire to go back.

    All thats left is to find that perfect flavour/voltage combo. I think if I can find a good flavour that gives me a good hit on a high voltage mod I can step down the nicotine content. I gave in and ordered a mod so at some point my spending should level out.

    Anyone who can't see light at the end of the smoking tunnel should simply try the 510 or even the 901 (my new atomizer makes this almost as good as the 510 so the first was definitely borked) and I suspect if you genuinely want to be rid of the real thing you'll find it easier than anything else you have tried.

    Finally some more links I would recommend.

    Smoke2Vape's Video Diary - follow this guys experiences as he moved from rolling Golden Virginia to being a happy vaper.

    Vaporcast - yep a podcast. Listen to Episode 1 at least as they go through all the basics. Excellently put together and good banter.

    http://ukvapers.com/ - a UK based forum which is a bit more useful in terms of more local info. about models and suppliers available more readily to us in Ireland.

    One more by the by. Eastmall, the cheap site I mentioned above is not US based it's China based so delivery is 10 days roughly. I am still waiting for delivery. 10 days won't be a problem down the line but as I'm just starting out I would have preferred to get the stuff quicker.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,267 ✭✭✭opr


    Thanks those post are hugely helpful as I was looking for information specifically on this product when I came to the forum.

    Still not sure which one I am going to try as I haven't fully researched it yet but thanks again for your posts as they have made that job a million times easier and your personal experience gives a good incite into the whole thing.

    Opr


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    mewso wrote: »
    People may not approve of e-cigarettes for whatever reason

    Hi mewso,
    I don't disapprove of e-cig or inhalers - it's horses for courses. If it helps you quit great :)

    My problem with them is that while they may help wean you off the addiction they do nothing for the habit. In fact they reinforce the habit of putting a cigarette shaped object in your mouth and pulling on it. Habits can be just as hard to break as addictions. Just my 2c on this type of therapy.

    Anyway - I hope it works for you :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    If they'd been available a year ago when I quit I would certainly have tried it. I'd worry that the nicotine dose is difficult to guage as opposed to lozenges or gum though.

    I have a friend that uses a vaporiser for his...ahem...non tobacco recreational smoking substances, and he loves it.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    I've stressed that it's a replacement. Lots of Vapers get really into it, flavours, higher voltage and so on. Some people drink a lot of Coffee. Cafeine is a stimulant just like Nicotine. I'm not saying Nicotine is harmless but compared to everything else in a cigarette it's small fry. So I'm not too worried about it not ridding me of the habit. It's a bit like saying someone switching to tea is not getting rid of the habit. I have always enjoyed that sensation of smoking so I'm happy to keep the habit while avoiding carcinogens, the stink and getting my breath back. Like ye say horses for courses. I just think these things could save lives. It's not necessarily the habit thats bad. It's the tar, combustion of tobacco and carcinogens. The act of giving up cigarettes in any shape or form is about improving your health and maybe living a bit longer.

    Yes people are different. I suspect that for some patches will work, for others cold turkey while others still would give up tomorrow if they could keep the sensation. Well here is the sensation in a considerably healthier fashion.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    opr wrote: »
    Thanks those post are hugely helpful as I was looking for information specifically on this product when I came to the forum.

    Still not sure which one I am going to try as I haven't fully researched it yet but thanks again for your posts as they have made that job a million times easier and your personal experience gives a good incite into the whole thing.

    Opr


    Best of luck with it. We'll have a Vapers forum before we know it :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭Freiheit


    Is there anywhere they can be bought with a Laser card?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Freiheit wrote: »
    Is there anywhere they can be bought with a Laser card?

    Not sure Freiheit. Most use Paypal and some Credit card. Apart from that I don't know. Heres a list of a few suppliers of standard e-cigs in the UK I have compiled. You can check them for laser if you wish:-

    Cloud 9 Vaping
    Vapor station
    Liberty Flights
    SmokeJuice
    E-Cigs.co.uk
    ecigsoutlet
    ENjuice
    Intellicig
    mistEliquid
    Ok Smokey
    Smoke Without Fire
    Sublime Vapours
    Electronic Cigarette Company
    Totally Wicked
    Vape88
    VAPERS PARADISE
    Vapor Station


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Hitchhiker's Guide to...


    Using an e-cig and I've had minimal withdrawal pangs since quitting last Thursday (it hasn't been pleasant, but definitely nothing like trying to quit before).

    Using a patch and the e-cig for the one-off cravings. It's working way better than the previously tried (and unsucessful) method of patch + gum.

    Oh, and Alan Carr is brilliant for the psychological angle...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,798 ✭✭✭syngindub


    as with chewing-gum, patches and now these i don't understand how you can quit nicotine addiction by giving yourself nicotine. It make NO sense.
    Would you see somebody with an alcohol patch if they were giving up the drink.I don't think so.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    syngindub wrote: »
    as with chewing-gum, patches and now these i don't understand how you can quit nicotine addiction by giving yourself nicotine. It make NO sense.
    Would you see somebody with an alcohol patch if they were giving up the drink.I don't think so.

    I am personally quitting tar, carcinogens and bad health. I can live with Nicotine on it's own for now and work on cutting it down. It's not comparable to alcohol at all. If you can move from smoking a cigarette to nicotine on it's own you are substantially reducing the dangers to your health. So I'm afraid it makes a lot of sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 575 ✭✭✭richardw001


    Hi Guys,
    Sorry for jumping in - however just thought I'd let you know I'm also using an ecig as well in my efforts to quit/cutdown.
    Have to say that it does help with the habit etc. - while not ideal at least it gives you some sort of replacement that is somewhat like smoking.

    For those of you that are at the point of going out buying 20 in a shop - then I would say give it a try for a week. If you're not in that boat then I would say keep going without this as I'm not sure its something that I would like to be addicted to in the long term

    Its worth doing a bit or research as you can get kits that give zero nicotene from day one.

    The other thing is that this conv probably belongs in a separate forum to the give up smoking one :-)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19 Scrumpy Jack


    Great main post Mewso.

    Saw those E cigs months ago and did some research but didn't go any further. Great to hear about them from a first time user. Thanks for taking the time to write about them :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭giggsirish


    The electronic cigarette is on its way to being banned in the uk! Anyone that gets their e-cigs from there or has any interest in keeping them on the market should sign the online petition:

    http://www.petitiononline.com/vaping/petition.html

    Also here are two Irish suppliers to add to the list.

    http://www.smokewithoutfire.ie

    http://www.electroniccigarettes.ie


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Yeah whats happening in the UK is worrying indeed. Not sure if the Prime Minister will care much about people from Ireland signing that petition though but we know what happens there could easily happen here.

    Quick Update: I am now off cigarettes a month. I would also now consider myself a recreational vaper. You might drink coffee. I don't I vaporize Nicotine.

    I have bought a battery mod that allows me to vape at 3.6 volts most of the day with one battery and if I wish I can slot 2 3V batteries into it too for a 6V vape. This can be great on the flavours and throat hit but I'm only getting used to it. I also bought a custom made USB pass through which allows me to try things at 5V. Thats my current favorite. My biggest issue now with e-cigs is having to refil cartridges so often. I am hoping that the next development in the tech. will be on the cartridges and the nicotine liquid delivery.

    Anyway I got both the battery mod (Little Gem he calls it) and USB pass through from this guy - http://www.e-cigcity.co.uk/epages/es120919.sf - he hand makes this stuff and the prices are excellent compared to most of the other modifications you can buy. Can't recommend his stuff highly enough.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭sideswipe


    interesting thread as I have been off the fags over a year now and would not have been able to do it without e-cigs especially during the early days, in the pub etc so I have signed that petition as I think they should be given out free by the HSE. I used 2 or 3 different types of varying quality but found these the best-
    www.myeasyquit.com
    Think they are irish based but not sure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Hitchhiker's Guide to...


    Three weeks off cigs now using an e-cig. Was originally using a patch as well, but gave it up as it wasn't contributing anything. Incredibly easy to quit and zero problems with cravings! (never thought i'd be saying that tbh)

    Would highly recommend considering this as a quit-aid. Have set next Thursday as my last day on the e-cig, so it'll have been a month quitting using these, and then nicotine free from that point hopefully.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Three weeks off cigs now using an e-cig. Was originally using a patch as well, but gave it up as it wasn't contributing anything. Incredibly easy to quit and zero problems with cravings! (never thought i'd be saying that tbh)

    Would highly recommend considering this as a quit-aid. Have set next Thursday as my last day on the e-cig, so it'll have been a month quitting using these, and then nicotine free from that point hopefully.

    Let me know how you get on. I honestly have no plans to stop the e-cigs for a long time but who knows. Someone said above that e-cigs might not be appropriate in a Giving up Smoking forum. I really think smokers and non-smokers alike don't fully understand where the harm is in smoking. It's well worth researching.

    It's also worth re-iterating some things. For starters if you switch to e-cigs you have stopped smoking. You are now inhaling water vapour that contains nicotine, PG and flavouring. PG has had many tests done that show no harmful affects and the flavouring is food grade. So you are left with Nicotine. So read up on Nicotine. It raises blood pressure. So does caffeine. There is a good list of research and reports here - http://vapersnetwork.org/node/8. One interesting report is the one on the long term affects of inhaling nicotine in it's pure form.

    Another report due out but not public yet is one that claims e-cigs deliver next to no nicotine. Having read snippets of the report I think his method was not perfect but there are other studies that think it certainly delivers less nicotine than expected. This is only a bonus anyway.

    Thats a lot more waffle from me but I'm am happy that I am countless times better off than when I was a smoker. If people can stop e-cigs not long after quitting cigarettes thats great and I'm not trying to put them off that but what I am saying is that if you find yourself unable to stop vaping then you are not as badly off as you might fear. For over 20 years I smoked cigarettes without so much as a care in the world of what i was inhaling. Since switching to the e-cigs my interest has been piqued particularly because I know these things will go big time some day soon and you can bet your bottom dollar the usual folks will be calling for them to be banned or restricted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1 gogo_gadget


    I decided at new years in a rare moment of clarity to stop smoking and have done so to some degree of success. I went cold turkey as I've done the gum and patches before with limited or no success. This time I figured I'd be fine if I gave up booze as well which worked and I was astounded that even in times nail biting and hair pulling stress I managed to stay off :D But what got me is the drink I have been out drinking 3 times this year and each time failed miserably to stay off the smokes, for me its a habit and the two are interlinked :( So I read about eco cigarettes and figured it was definitely worth a try. So its arrived today but what was great is that I'm not addicted to nicotine anymore so I could get cartridges without nicotine. For me its the habit of something in the hand and the inhaling so hopefully I can now stay strong. Thanks for your posts it was really useful to see other people are in the same boat and are vaping away! :p


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  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ouijaboard


    Great stuff lads, thanks mewso for all the info, seems like a pretty good way to stop. Very interesting, keep us updated!


  • Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭F-Stop


    I saw Mewso's original post a while ago and then came back to it recently. I was intrigued, and after having an up and down 2009 with trying to quit smokes decided to give the e-cigs a go. Just to give some background, in June I began taking champix and was off for nine weeks, then started again. I got another prescription and would manage not to smoke for three days then smoke for four repeatedly for weeks - that on top of 5 months of champix took it's toll and I just said fcuk it. Since January I have been constantly building up to quitting, and constantly buying that last pack. So, last week I thought what the hell, and on Mewso's recommendations, bought a Joye 510 starter kit from thevapourstore.ie.

    My first impression of the stick was; this is disgusting. That's because I hadn't heard about primer. The atomizers are loaded with a liquid when packed, probably sit in that for weeks or months between leaving the factory and getting to your lips, and if you don't blow it out of the atomizer before using it you get a pretty rank taste in your mouth. This passes pretty quickly though.

    The 'tobacco' flavour you get in the loaded carts is... intersting. I didn't like it straight away, but have grown quite used to it now. As mewso pointed out above, apart from the equipment and paraphanalia (batteries, atomizers, carts, modified versions of all of those and more), you'll start trying out different liquids. My experience with the liquids is that they were way too sweet. The base liquid that the nicotine juice is in is naturally sweet (I think VG is used as a sweetener). The juices I bought from the Irish site (and I really like that store because they deliver so fast - I can't speak about their customer service because I've had no complaints) which I think are Dekang sourced (could very well be wrong) are pretty good. They suit my taste buds, however badly damaged they may be. The fancy flavours I bought from LF I can't stand. I've ruined one of my atomizers because I can't get the sickly sweet stink out of it. To me all the flavours are pretty much the same - horribly sweet.

    So, after the weekend I was a bit ho hum about the whole thing. After a good start, I'd ended up spending a fair bit of money. The device was good, though the 510 batteries die pretty quickly - need to have at least three charged and ready for a day at work. My biggest problem was, while the vapour was really like smoke, with a good 'hit, nothing really tasted like tobacco. In fact some of it tasted like I was putting candy floss in a crack pipe. I definitely had been smoking less cigarettes, and while I do think that e-cigs are not as bad for you, I am not convinced that they are a whole lot better than cigarettes. That said, even if they are detrimental to my health; they do not contain tar, they do not contain carbon monoxide, they do not burn at as high a temperature, the nicotine levels are controllable. So I was kind of on the fence, but by sunday evening I knew I was getting two more deliveries...

    So I got my ScrewDriver today. A screwdriver is really just a battery holder. There are two things that are great about this: the battery lasts all day without having to change pieces around, and it is nothing like a cigarette, in looks or use. The second delivery was some liquids from OKsmokey. Finally, something that tasted like tobacco; Golden Virgina, and Drum, and Old Holburn. Not sweet at all, really nice tasty smokey vapour.

    I'll wrap this up now as most people stopped reading after the first paragraph (yeah, I didn't mean for it to go on so long). I'm grateful to Mewso for posting such a thorough account of what electronic cigarettes are about, and providing a good starting place for a total newb. Within a week I've gone from smoking 25-30 cigarettes a day to just 5 today. That is something to fcuking shout about as far as I'm concerned. However, I don't want to replace my cigarette smoking with vaping long term - I do intend to find my feet with this method (which I feel I have done now), take a month or two to leave the analogues totally behind me, and then to bring in a program of nicotine reduction with a liquid I like. Once I'm nicotine free for a month or two I'll ween myself off the vaping. Fingers crossed.

    Oh, if anyone wants to trade any juice or bits and pieces for some Flavour Arts juices just pm me. They are held in high regard, just not to my tastes.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Good to see another person trying them.
    F-Stop wrote: »
    My first impression of the stick was; this is disgusting. That's because I hadn't heard about primer. The atomizers are loaded with a liquid when packed, probably sit in that for weeks or months between leaving the factory and getting to your lips, and if you don't blow it out of the atomizer before using it you get a pretty rank taste in your mouth. This passes pretty quickly though.

    This seems to be luck of the draw from what I can tell. I got the triple traveller pack from OK Smokey and all 3 atomizers were terrible for ages. I got some from elsewhere and they were fine pretty much straight off but in general yes first puffs on these things may not taste right for a while.
    F-Stop wrote: »
    My experience with the liquids is that they were way too sweet. The base liquid that the nicotine juice is in is naturally sweet (I think VG is used as a sweetener).

    VG isn't in standard juices like the chinese stuff but a lot of sites offer juices with a mix of PG and VG and some with VG only.
    F-Stop wrote: »
    The juices I bought from the Irish site (and I really like that store because they deliver so fast - I can't speak about their customer service because I've had no complaints) which I think are Dekang sourced (could very well be wrong) are pretty good. They suit my taste buds, however badly damaged they may be. The fancy flavours I bought from LF I can't stand. I've ruined one of my atomizers because I can't get the sickly sweet stink out of it. To me all the flavours are pretty much the same - horribly sweet.

    I'm not much of a fan of the very sweet flavours either tbh but in my case mainly because they taste kind of candy/fake sweet. There is a supplier called EnJuice who do loads of different sweet flavours and they are excellent from what I have tried, top quality flavours, but I just have a few for every now and again. I mainly vape Hilton, RY4 (tobacco flavours) or Menthol from vapourstore who I find very very good both in delivery as you say and service. They deserve the business.
    F-Stop wrote: »
    I definitely had been smoking less cigarettes, and while I do think that e-cigs are not as bad for you, I am not convinced that they are a whole lot better than cigarettes. That said, even if they are detrimental to my health; they do not contain tar, they do not contain carbon monoxide, they do not burn at as high a temperature, the nicotine levels are controllable.

    I'm probably defensive at this stage but I'm curious as to what you would consider bad for you in them.
    F-Stop wrote: »
    So I got my ScrewDriver today. A screwdriver is really just a battery holder. There are two things that are great about this: the battery lasts all day without having to change pieces around, and it is nothing like a cigarette, in looks or use.

    Ah the screwdriver is great. I just got mine the other day too. The maker, trog, posts on ukvapers.com so it's cool to be able to query him on it. His site is doing 2 for 1 for the next few days which is a great deal. These are perfect for taking to work or heading to the pub.
    F-Stop wrote: »
    The second delivery was some liquids from OKsmokey. Finally, something that tasted like tobacco; Golden Virgina, and Drum, and Old Holburn. Not sweet at all, really nice tasty smokey vapour.

    I like OK Smokey juice allright but it's so true to those flavours they are the first liquids that made me think it's vital we have 100% conifdence in what is used to flavour the stuff. If I am 100% confident in whats in the bottle I have little or no concerns about the health question.
    F-Stop wrote: »
    Take a month or two to leave the analogues totally behind me, and then to bring in a program of nicotine reduction with a liquid I like. Once I'm nicotine free for a month or two I'll ween myself off the vaping. Fingers crossed.

    As I said before let us know how that goes. I have no intention of weening myself of vaping at all :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ouijaboard


    Hey guys, really intrigued here but ye are beginning to lose me :) whats a screwdriver and where can it be got? Sounds good if it can keep the ecig running longer?

    I'm going to get involved in this but it seems like theres such a large learning curve? Even the guys over at e-cigarette-forum seem to have their own lingo and it seems like its too much work to be learning all the tricks of the trade. I think i'll buy a 510 alright but it seems like to get into the whole experience and have it work, you have many other things to buy to keep 'the habit' going?

    Heck, for instance how the hell do you refill carts manually?

    I already feel like an old pensioner thats trying to figure out how to work an ipod!! ;)

    Cheers and keep us updated!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    cougar1 wrote: »
    Hey guys, really intrigued here but ye are beginning to lose me :) whats a screwdriver and where can it be got? Sounds good if it can keep the ecig running longer?

    I'm going to get involved in this but it seems like theres such a large learning curve? Even the guys over at e-cigarette-forum seem to have their own lingo and it seems like its too much work to be learning all the tricks of the trade. I think i'll buy a 510 alright but it seems like to get into the whole experience and have it work, you have many other things to buy to keep 'the habit' going?

    Heck, for instance how the hell do you refill carts manually?

    I already feel like an old pensioner thats trying to figure out how to work an ipod!! ;)

    Cheers and keep us updated!

    You can get the screwdriver here - http://www.cavecom.com/screwdriver/shop/shopindex.htm

    Remember there are essentially 3 parts to an e-cig. Battery, attomizer and cartridge. The screwdriver is a replacement for the standard battery that comes with a basic kit. As the basic ones don't last that long it's worth the investment. On the screwdriver site you need to buy each item individually and you would need to pick the one that matches your attomizer or simply buy one and buy a pack of attomizers and cartridges and skip a basic starter kit completely. You would also need the batteries and charger too.

    The same guy developed what he calls the mark II version which is sold by totally wicked (see my list of suppliers above). Totally Wicked also sell what they call the Tornado which is one of the Chinese's answers to long lasting batteries and is essentially a 510 starter kit with batteries that last most of the day and has gotten great reviews.

    As to the learning curve I would skip the electric cigarette forum in terms of asking questions and try a quieter forum like ukvapers.com. Pop in and ask away. Nice people there.

    Cartridges can be filled in different ways. You can pull out the material in them, drip in your liquid, shove the material back in and put 2 or 3 more drops on top. I prefer to simply leave the material in and drop 3 or 4 drops on top as it's quick and easy.

    I think all you really need is a starter kit and something like the screwdriver for longer lasting battery life. After that it's just bits and pieces like liquid and replacement attomizers every now and again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ouijaboard


    Thanks a million Mewso, you are a gentleman!

    Thats cleared a a fair few things up for me. I've gone a ahead and ordered the 510 from the vapourshop and a few other bits and pieces and will let ye know how things are going in a few days.

    The screwdriver looks very interesting as the main complaint from people seems to be batt power and dying atomisers. Thanks for the site.

    Its funny 2 days ago I did not know these ecigs existed in this detail; my only knowledge amounted to ryanair air hostesses looking fairly miffed at trying to flog their own cheesy smokeless cigarettes midflight to grinning passengers.

    Some of these items seem like a massive improvement on the generic gimmicky brands. The way I look at it, its worth a shot. As long as I can get reasonable usage and not find it too perplexing or time consuming to keep the hobby going (I've enough hobbies as it is :)) then if I can at least cut down on the analogues with this method then that has to be a good thing. Thanks again!


  • Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭F-Stop


    Thanks for the thorough reply Mewso.

    Regarding sweet flavours, and also vapourstore, their Cherry flavour is actually quite nice and clean - in small goes anyway. I'm delighted that there is a good, reliable, Irish supplier - I believe there are a couple of others and I'll give them a go to be fair, but I'm very happy with vapourstore so far. Also, their prices are very competitive with some of the UK sites.

    As regards the health side of things, it isn't that I necessarily think that there is anything bad about them, but that there are so many unknowns. It's relatively new, so we have no real idea of long term effects. The colourings and flavourings may be deemed safe for eating, but it isn't clear what happens when they are heated and inhaled, and there doesn't seem to be anyway of knowing exactly what you are getting all the time. As you say, "If I am 100% confident in whats in the bottle I have little or no concerns about the health question." But that said, I still think the risk with these is likely far less than the known risks of inhaling burning treated tobacco leaf.
    As I said before let us know how that goes. I have no intention of weening myself of vaping at all

    Yeah, the more I'm getting my sense of taste and smell back, the more I'm enjoying this... Oh well, my point was to try to quit smokes without the horrible pressure involved in quitting nicotine. I'll take it one step at a time ;)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    F-Stop wrote: »
    As regards the health side of things, it isn't that I necessarily think that there is anything bad about them, but that there are so many unknowns. It's relatively new, so we have no real idea of long term effects. The colourings and flavourings may be deemed safe for eating, but it isn't clear what happens when they are heated and inhaled, and there doesn't seem to be anyway of knowing exactly what you are getting all the time.

    Suppliers in the UK are facing possible regulation which while it isn't good news they have for some time been publishing lab reports on their liquids so a lot of the UK made stuff is probably very safe. As for the chinese stuff it's been around for so long I would have expected to find some horror stories by now plus I recently saw some photos on a guys blog who had visited one of the labs in China where it was made and it looked pristine. They all seem to be taking it seriously.

    E-cigs have been around for longer than we might think. They are just coming to the fore in the west now but regardless as I said in an earlier post there are numerous published reports on tests/research done on the effects of the ingredients and so on. I'm confident we are safe but I'm not taking the blame if we all cop it in a years time :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭F-Stop


    I do agree. I know that already my taste buds are coming back to life and my lungs are clearing up. If a doctor tells me in six months or a year that there is serious damage to my lungs, I'd be insane to blame a few months of e-cigs and not the 20+ years of smoking tobacco.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Just a small update regarding safety on this. It only relates to high voltage mods and the possible dangers of the batteries. Some mods use unprotected lithium batteries and there have been some cases of these exploding mainly from what I can tell down to misuse or lack of understanding of general safety with lithium batteries.

    I actually have a 6V mod which only takes 2 unprotected 3V batteries and I have decided not to use them anymore just as a precaution and because I have another mod that uses 2 3V protected batteries. The dangers are mainly from using the wrong charger or a short-circuit because of a damaged attomizer. There is no guarantee with a protected battery but it's much safer.

    Stuff like the Screwdriver is safer because it only uses one battery. The 2 battery mods are the main issues. Most of the standard batteries that come with e-cigs have built in circuitry to protect against short-circuit etc.

    I'm no expert on these batteries so I'm choosing to stick to protected batteries or standard e-cig batteries. If anyone wants something a little more powerful I would recommend you ensure what you are buying uses protected batteries.

    Exploding batteries sounds dramatic (it can happen with laptops) but it's worth being aware of the possibility. I expect down the line all of this tech will be built with these dangers in mind.


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