ps3 and small claims court

WarZoneBrother

Bono Vox wrote: »

That's well out of warranty unfortunately. As far as I know you won't have a leg to stand on.

+1 not a hope of you getting a case for this...mine has stopped reading blu rays but I did not get an error code? maybe mine just needs to be formatted or yours those...all you need is a new lens it will cost you 50-100euro from www.consolerepairsireland.ie ...

whiterebel

alastair wrote: »

Worth checking the various linked legislation:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62903423&postcount=19

Seems that the two year directive does indeed apply here.

It doesn't. As I just replied, and said in the last sentence of my post, check the citizens advice site. That has been put forward many times by people as it said for a long time that we had a 2 year warranty. have a look at your consumer rights on it now, and it is back to the Sale of Goods Act, 1980.

Retr0gamer

The EU laws weren't enforced here because ireland give the same protection in it's laws except with a 3 year gaurantee with the retailer. I'm not sure where 6 years is coming from.

Saying that, be careful because the law can be interpreted in different ways as I said. It seems to be designed without games consoles in mind so while it's easy to apply to standard goods it's a bit grey for consumer electronics. Also it might be hard explaining to a technophobe judge why you think the console is faulty at purchase.

alastair

whiterebel wrote: »

It doesn't. As I just replied, and said in the last sentence of my post, check the citizens advice site. That has been put forward many times by people as it said for a long time that we had a 2 year warranty. have a look at your consumer rights on it now, and it is back to the Sale of Goods Act, 1980.

Eh - to quote the legislation (passed into law in 2003) imposing the EU directive:

S.I. No. 11/2003 — European Communities (Certain Aspects of the Sale of Consumer Goods and Associated Guarantees) Regulations 2003

3. (1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), these Regulations are in addition to, and not in substitution for, any other enactment relating to the sale of goods or the terms of contracts concluded with consumers, and in particular —

(a) the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Acts 1893 and 1980,

and

(b) the European Communities (Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts) Regulations 1995 ( S.I. No. 27 of 1995 ).

(2) In particular, Regulation 4 is in addition to, and not in substitution for, a provision of any other enactment that provides that a consumer shall not be deprived, by virtue of a choice of the kind mentioned in that Regulation, of the protection afforded by any enactment.

(3) In a case where the level of protection for the consumer afforded by a particular provision of these Regulations is greater than that afforded by a particular provision of another enactment, or to the extent that the invocation of a latter such provision by the consumer would diminish the first-mentioned level of protection for him or her —

(a) the consumer may opt to invoke the particular provision of these Regulations to the exclusion of the other provision, and

(b) the other provision may be invoked, and shall be construed and operate so as to be capable of being invoked, by the consumer in a manner that does not diminish the first-mentioned level of protection for him or her,

but nothing in this paragraph operates to extend the application of these Regulations to a person who is not a consumer within the meaning of these Regulations or to goods that are not consumer goods within the meaning of these Regulations.

(4) In a case where the level of protection for the consumer afforded by a particular provision of any other enactment is greater than that afforded by a particular provision of these Regulations, or to the extent that the invocation of a latter such provision by the consumer would diminish the first-mentioned level of protection for him or her —

(a) the consumer may opt to invoke the particular provision of that other enactment to the exclusion of the other provision of these Regulations, and

(b) that other provision of these Regulations may be invoked, and shall be construed and operate so as to be capable of being invoked, by the consumer in a manner that does not diminish the first-mentioned level of protection for him or her,

but nothing in this paragraph operates to afford to any person the protection of that provision of the other enactment in any case where it would not otherwise be so afforded.


and the specific periods as defined in the EU directive:

Directive 1999/44/EC

The seller is liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from the moment of delivery (Article 5(1)). A majority of Member States have transposed this provision literally. Others have chosen to rely on the time limitation that is generally applicable in their contract law: Finland (3 years from delivery), Ireland and the UK (six years for both countries).

And the Citizens Info site is clear enough on the application of the EU directive as of 2003.

And here's what the Irish branch of the European Consumer Centre has to say on the matter:

1. What’s bothering you? – Consumer protection in Europe

All 25 EU Member States have implemented Directive 1999/44/EC on the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees, which provides for a minimum level of consumer protection. As a result of this legislation, consumers have a right to a minimum guarantee of two years on products. Within the first six months of the guarantee any lack of conformity shall be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery, unless proved otherwise. Within this period the consumer is entitled to have the goods brought back into conformity. The consumer is entitled to ask for the goods to be repaired or replaced free of charge.


Also important for consumers is that after this period of six months they are still protected against faulty products. Within two years from delivery of the goods the trader can still be held liable for any lack of conformity. However, it is then up to the consumer to prove that the lack of conformity existed at the time of delivery.

In Ireland the implementation of Directive 1999/44/EC is in addition to existing protection granted by the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 and the Unfair Terms Regulations 1995. Under the Statute of limitations, the trader can be held liable for up to six years for lack of conformity of the product.

whiterebel

alastair wrote: »

Eh - to quote the legislation (passed into law in 2003) imposing the EU directive:

S.I. No. 11/2003 — European Communities (Certain Aspects of the Sale of Consumer Goods and Associated Guarantees) Regulations 2003

3. (1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), these Regulations are in addition to, and not in substitution for, any other enactment relating to the sale of goods or the terms of contracts concluded with consumers, and in particular —

(a) the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Acts 1893 and 1980,

and

(b) the European Communities (Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts) Regulations 1995 ( S.I. No. 27 of 1995 ).

(2) In particular, Regulation 4 is in addition to, and not in substitution for, a provision of any other enactment that provides that a consumer shall not be deprived, by virtue of a choice of the kind mentioned in that Regulation, of the protection afforded by any enactment.

(3) In a case where the level of protection for the consumer afforded by a particular provision of these Regulations is greater than that afforded by a particular provision of another enactment, or to the extent that the invocation of a latter such provision by the consumer would diminish the first-mentioned level of protection for him or her —

(a) the consumer may opt to invoke the particular provision of these Regulations to the exclusion of the other provision, and

(b) the other provision may be invoked, and shall be construed and operate so as to be capable of being invoked, by the consumer in a manner that does not diminish the first-mentioned level of protection for him or her,

but nothing in this paragraph operates to extend the application of these Regulations to a person who is not a consumer within the meaning of these Regulations or to goods that are not consumer goods within the meaning of these Regulations.

(4) In a case where the level of protection for the consumer afforded by a particular provision of any other enactment is greater than that afforded by a particular provision of these Regulations, or to the extent that the invocation of a latter such provision by the consumer would diminish the first-mentioned level of protection for him or her —

(a) the consumer may opt to invoke the particular provision of that other enactment to the exclusion of the other provision of these Regulations, and

(b) that other provision of these Regulations may be invoked, and shall be construed and operate so as to be capable of being invoked, by the consumer in a manner that does not diminish the first-mentioned level of protection for him or her,

but nothing in this paragraph operates to afford to any person the protection of that provision of the other enactment in any case where it would not otherwise be so afforded.


and the specific periods as defined in the EU directive:

Directive 1999/44/EC

The seller is liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from the moment of delivery (Article 5(1)). A majority of Member States have transposed this provision literally. Others have chosen to rely on the time limitation that is generally applicable in their contract law: Finland (3 years from delivery), Ireland and the UK (six years for both countries).

And the Citizens Info site is clear enough on the application of the EU directive as of 2003.

And here's what the Irish branch of the European Consumer Centre has to say on the matter:

1. What’s bothering you? – Consumer protection in Europe

All 25 EU Member States have implemented Directive 1999/44/EC on the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees, which provides for a minimum level of consumer protection. As a result of this legislation, consumers have a right to a minimum guarantee of two years on products. Within the first six months of the guarantee any lack of conformity shall be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery, unless proved otherwise. Within this period the consumer is entitled to have the goods brought back into conformity. The consumer is entitled to ask for the goods to be repaired or replaced free of charge.


Also important for consumers is that after this period of six months they are still protected against faulty products. Within two years from delivery of the goods the trader can still be held liable for any lack of conformity. However, it is then up to the consumer to prove that the lack of conformity existed at the time of delivery.

In Ireland the implementation of Directive 1999/44/EC is in addition to existing protection granted by the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 and the Unfair Terms Regulations 1995. Under the Statute of limitations, the trader can be held liable for up to six years for lack of conformity of the product.

The Citizens info website?
"Consumer contracts are protected by the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980" - No mention of EU directive.They have a separate area for EU 1999/44/EC, headed "Consumer rights in the European Union" Here's what the Directive applies to:
"The main rights that are given to every European consumer under the European Directive on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees (1999/44/EC) are set out below.

* If you purchase goods or services from another EU Member State and they were advertised in your country, you are protected under consumer law of your home country.
* If you purchased goods or services from a representative of the business in your home country, national consumer law of your home country protects you.
* If you buy goods or services while you were visiting another EU Member State the laws of the country in which you bought the items apply."

The European Consumer Centre? From their own website: "The European Consumer Centre Network offers consumers across Europe advice on their rights when shopping in another European state"

National Consumer Agency - "The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980 gives legal rights to consumers in their dealings with retailers and service suppliers." No mention of EU directive.

We did not enact all aspects of the EU directive, as we have refused to do with other EU directives.

alastair

whiterebel wrote: »

The Citizens info website?
"Consumer contracts are protected by the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980" - No mention of EU directive.They have a separate area for EU 1999/44/EC, headed "Consumer rights in the European Union" Here's what the Directive applies to:
"The main rights that are given to every European consumer under the European Directive on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees (1999/44/EC) are set out below.

* If you purchase goods or services from another EU Member State and they were advertised in your country, you are protected under consumer law of your home country.
* If you purchased goods or services from a representative of the business in your home country, national consumer law of your home country protects you.
* If you buy goods or services while you were visiting another EU Member State the laws of the country in which you bought the items apply."

The European Consumer Centre? From their own website: "The European Consumer Centre Network offers consumers across Europe advice on their rights when shopping in another European state"

National Consumer Agency - "The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980 gives legal rights to consumers in their dealings with retailers and service suppliers." No mention of EU directive.

We did not enact all aspects of the EU directive, as we have refused to do with other EU directives.

Onr more time - as the Citizen's Advice website makes clear (in relation to the EU directive being brought into law in 2003):

all consumers purchasing goods in any EU Member State are entitled to a basic set of consumer rights. The existence of a single European market gives access to a wider range of products and services at competitive prices.

National consumer laws in a particular country may provide you with additional rights as a consumer. That is, rights that supplement your rights provided by EU laws.


The European Consumer Centre in Dublin is as focused on consumer rights within Ireland as it is in any other EU state - as the link I provided shows:

In Ireland the implementation of Directive 1999/44/EC is in addition to existing protection granted by the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980

It's pretty simple really - the EU directive, as enacted and implemented here in 2003, provides additional rights in addition to the 1980 Sale of Goods Act. We have implemented it as law.

To quote the Tanaiste: the current body of legislation is a mix of the 1893 pre Independence legislation and the 1980 Act together with secondary legislation deriving from EU Directives.

whiterebel

alastair wrote: »

The European Consumer Centre in Dublin is as focused on consumer rights within Ireland as it is in any other EU state - as the link I provided shows:

"The European Consumer Centre Network offers consumers across Europe advice on their rights when shopping in another European state. The ECC Network also offers a dispute resolution service. If necessary, ECC Ireland can liaise directly with a trader via its sister centre in the country of purchase. Please note that ECC Ireland does not deal with queries from Irish consumers about Irish traders. Consumers with queries of this nature should contact the National Consumer Agency"

From the ECC's own website, the NCA then goes on to quote Sale of Goods Act. That link was 4 years old, BTW. They didn't seem to realise then that the EU Directive was never enacted in the UK either.

And my last comment, as this is just going in circles - We didn't implement 2 years, because we have greater protection according the the Govt, than is afforded by the EU directive. Why would you supplant a better system for a consumer with a worse one?

Best way for you to prove its in force is to go somewhere with a faulty object and see how far you get with the EU Directive.

Absolam

I think there are now two issues being discussed here.

In my opinion, the EU directive allows for an extented period in which to return goods that were faulty (or 'lacking conformity') when purchased, but where that lack of conformity did not become apparent until later. In that case, the consumer could reasonably expect to return the goods within six years. But it appears to me that the consumer would have to able to show the fault was present at the time of purchase.

The issue of going to the small claims court is a bit different; the judge will rule on the circumstances presented, and since most retailers / manufacturers (ie Sony) won't turn up, the ruling will go to the plaintiff regardless.

Flaccus

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The EU laws weren't enforced here because ireland give the same protection in it's laws except with a 3 year gaurantee with the retailer. I'm not sure where 6 years is coming from.

Saying that, be careful because the law can be interpreted in different ways as I said. It seems to be designed without games consoles in mind so while it's easy to apply to standard goods it's a bit grey for consumer electronics. Also it might be hard explaining to a technophobe judge why you think the console is faulty at purchase.

The 6 years comes from the statue of limitations. It doesn't say you have a 6 year warranty as some people think. It just allows you to seek redress within 6 years from when you bought the goods. The guidelines are determined by the Sale of Good act and usually a judge will determine what a reasonable period of time is for the goods to last. I've been through the small claims court process 3 times with this. As for the EU directive, while some of it applies, the bit about 2 year warranty does not and was never implemented in Ireland as was correctly pointed out above and was also pointed out to me by a judge. The reason for this is we already enjoy greater protection in our current legislation. Again this was pointed out already above. Regarding the post about warranty with cars, this is covered by a special section of the sale of goods act and the usual statute of limitations rules do not apply, so is not a fair comparison to make.

endaob

Messi19 wrote: »

Hi

Just wondering has anybody had any success in filing a case against a retailer in the small claims court over a faulty ps3?

Keep us up to date on your progress please. As a YLOD sufferer, currently trading emails with Sony Support (misnomer there) I'll be watching with interest. Good luck with it.

norrie rugger

This could be very interesting. I look forward to the verdict

knuth

Good luck OP, keep us posted.

prettyboy81

Good Luck, i await with interest the judgement of the Small Claims Court

noodler

I hope this poster actually does it, a fair few have threatened but never came back to tell us how it went.

Glico Man

noodler wrote: »

I hope this poster actually does it, a fair few have threatened but never came back to tell us how it went.

Damn right. I want to know if I can get my money back. Spent €800+ on a launch console and a refurb.

and maybe get a little extra for emotional distress:p

noodler

aaronh007 wrote: »

Damn right. I want to know if I can get my money back. Spent €800+ on a launch console and a refurb.

and maybe get a little extra for emotional distress:p

No offense but I think you are the least likely to an entitlement if it is a launch console!

Now go watch Drake dance and rap.

Glico Man

What is the length of time before I can't claim for compensation?

And have seen Drake dancing...hilarious

Messi19

Just a quick update. I'm waiting to hear from the small claims registrar as to whether it will be disputed. Hoping to hear something at some stage next week

Glico Man

Messi19 wrote: »

Just a quick update. I'm waiting to hear from the small claims registrar as to whether it will be disputed. Hoping to hear something at some stage next week

Good stuff and good luck

smuglas

Good luck with your claim. I have also had problems with my PS3 which stopped reading discs 13 months after it was bought. Have asked the retailer for a refund / replacement and if that's not successful the next step will be the small claims court. Would be very interested to hear how you get on!

smuglas

Following my last post the retailer has agreed to replace my faulty PS3. I pursued the Sale of Goods Act line and threatened (in a polite, reasonable manner) to take them to the small claims court. Got my old 80Gb replaced by a new slim 120Gb machine including 1 year warranty. The slim version seems to have less problems so am very happy with this result.

norrie rugger

smuglas wrote: »

Following my last post the retailer has agreed to replace my faulty PS3. I pursued the Sale of Goods Act line and threatened (in a polite, reasonable manner) to take them to the small claims court. Got my old 80Gb replaced by a new slim 120Gb machine including 1 year warranty. The slim version seems to have less problems so am very happy with this result.

Nicely played sir
This is actually a won for both of you.

You get a new playstation (which is all you wanted) and they do not have to fork out the original cost of the 80 gig (that was more expensive no?)

Elessar

It's always good to hear consumers standing up for their rights. Let us know how you get on. What retailer was it?

There has been a lot of misinformation in this thread. The "6 year" rule is not a warranty but as someone said, the statute of limitations for seeking redress under any contract (not just sale of goods afaik). There is no time limit in the 1980 act. Only if it considered "Reasonable" to expect a product to last longer than it has. A lot of that has to do with how much you paid for the item. A SCC registrar told one boards poster that having spent €1400 on a laptop that became faulty, it would be reasonable to expect one of that price to last at least 5 years.

Remember folks, manufacturer warranties are just bonuses in addition to your rights, and do not effect them in any way. This is why the majority of extended warranties are pointless.

L'prof

norrie rugger wrote: »

Nicely played sir
This is actually a won for both of you.

You get a new playstation (which is all you wanted) and they do not have to fork out the original cost of the 80 gig (that was more expensive no?)

Should they not have to reimburse the difference?

norrie rugger

They should but if the poster is happy to accept this then fine. Otherwise he might indeed have ended up in the small claims

unkymo

I'll be watching this thread closely. My 40GB system got the YLOD and after spending 470 euros ( plus hundreds more on games!) to buy it 2 years ago, they want me to pay another 150 euros to get it fixed! I can't take it back to the retailer as they've closed down since so my only option would be to give it to Sony which I don't want to do.

noodler

jasonorr wrote: »

Should they not have to reimburse the difference?

I am all for consumer rights but surely that would be taking the piss?

You can't expect a refund after a certain period, usually just a repair or replacement.

L'prof

noodler wrote: »

I am all for consumer rights but surely that would be taking the piss?

You can't expect a refund after a certain period, usually just a repair or replacement.

I'm not saying I'd expect it and I would be very happy with a new console and 1 year warranty but, I thought I read that somewhere in this thread!

noodler

unkymo wrote: »

I'll be watching this thread closely. My 40GB system got the YLOD and after spending 470 euros ( plus hundreds more on games!) to buy it 2 years ago, they want me to pay another 150 euros to get it fixed! I can't take it back to the retailer as they've closed down since so my only option would be to give it to Sony which I don't want to do.

Where did you buy it originally?

Retr0gamer

Noodler is right, you are entitled to a repair or replacement and if these can't be met in a reasonable time then you are entitled to a refund. You might have a case if it's a 60GB PS3 with BC for a refund if they can't repair it since it would be impossible to replace.