Wild card weekend

cooker3

aaronh007 wrote: »

A great weekend for football

Really? Maybe I am still all doom and gloom but packers cardinals aside I thought it was a decidedly average wildcard round.

Glico Man

cooker3 wrote: »

Really? Maybe I am still all doom and gloom but packers cardinals aside I thought it was a decidedly average wildcard round.

Could be that I have just finished celebrating in Baltimore. Pats and Brady got destroyed by the Ravens running game and pressure defence

tallaghtoutlaws

aaronh007 wrote: »

Could be that I have just finished celebrating in Baltimore. Patriots and Brady got destroyed by the Ravens running game and pressure defence

Fixed that for you

Glico Man

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Fixed that for you

Cheers, as you could tell it's been a good day

And I am sat in my classic Favre jersey so that might explain the mix up....

Tristram

Packers Cardinals was one of the most exciting games I've seen. Really thought Packers were going to grab it at the end. Hell of a display from both offences. Gotta have some love for Old Man Warner Rodgers was great tonight too. Look forward to watching him and that Packers team progress over the next few years.

spank_inferno

It was absolutely gutting to see the game finish the way it did.
But it was probably appropriate considering how the game went from the start.

The cardinals were pretty impressive last night.
They have added a great running game to an already impressive passing game.
Full credit to Kurt Warner, the old dog had ice in his veins out there.

GB deserve credit for their 'never say die' attitude.
However a lot of the problems from the start of the season all manifested themselves again in this most important of games.
The progress made by the D went out the window and Rodgers had little time to do his job also.

However I'm optimistic for the future.
We've a young team and a fantastic QB, next season no one will look forward facing the pack!

Hope that the Cards can do the business next week too.

Roar

was there not a facemask on Roders when he he lost the ball last night?

edit

fairly blatant



even Joe Buck alluded to it in the commentary, something along the lines of "Rodgers gets a hand in the face" while the play was going on

spank_inferno

You are right, there should have been a flag.
I think the cardinals players arm came off rogers arm up onto his face.
The player didnt directly go for his face?

Perhaps thats what stopped the flag.

I also thought the 10yd penalty to make it 2nd & 20 was also a bit harsh

Roar

Roar wrote: »

even Joe Buck alluded to it in the commentary, something along the lines of "Rodgers gets a hand in the face" while the play was going on

Def. grabbed his facemask. Should have been a 15 yard penalty and first down. And a few complaining that earlier there was a helmet to helmet tackle on Rodgers which went unpunished. But guess overall the better team (marginally) won.

copacetic

He followed through to the facemask after he hit the ball. You can even see in the shot that the ball is long gone. Would have been an unlucky call, umpires were following ball at that stage.

InKonspikuou2

The ball was like a few inches from the facemask when it was grabbed. So watching the ball or not wasn't the matter. And isn't the ref the only one supposed to be watching the passer. Although from his angle it would have been difficult to call. Even if it occurred after lose of control the ball should have went to the Cards offense if a foul was called. Which probably wouldn't have mattered considering how the packers D was playing.

copacetic

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

The ball was like a few inches from the facemask when it was grabbed. So watching the ball or not wasn't the matter. And isn't the ref the only one supposed to be watching the passer. Although from his angle it would have been difficult to call. Even if it occurred after lose of control the ball should have went to the Cards offense if a foul was called. Which probably wouldn't have mattered considering how the packers D was playing.

yep but the ball was moving quickly in the other direction, so they umpires would be following it.

The key thing for me is that the play was made fairly on the ball, everything else was after that and looked to be accidental. So maybe by the letter of the law it should have been a foul call, but I wouldn't have called it and don't think the packers have much to complain about.

tallaghtoutlaws

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

The ball was like a few inches from the facemask when it was grabbed. So watching the ball or not wasn't the matter. And isn't the ref the only one supposed to be watching the passer. Although from his angle it would have been difficult to call. Even if it occurred after lose of control the ball should have went to the Cards offense if a foul was called. Which probably wouldn't have mattered considering how the packers D was playing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JbCXT7NWy0

Go to 1.22 as Rodgers is being brought down the ball hits his foot and into the arms of Dansby.

The side judge behind Rodgers would have had a bad angle on it. The ref would have moved his attention to where the ball was going and the Side judge on the front side of the action would have moved with it also. The Back judge would have had no angle on the facemask either.

Sadly in all of this as the pace of the fumble moved away the facemask was missed.

Trojan

copacetic wrote: »

So maybe by the letter of the law it should have been a foul call, but I wouldn't have called it and don't think the packers have much to complain about.

I disagree - it was a foul and should have been called regardless. I think it would have been fair too given the helmet to helmet prior. But that's sport for you - what a great game it was.

http://www.foochuck.com/blog/2010/01/aaron-rodgers-facemask-missed-penalty-call-by-nfl-refs/

tallaghtoutlaws

Trojan wrote: »

I disagree - it was a foul and should have been called regardless. I think it would have been fair too given the helmet to helmet prior. But that's sport for you - what a great game it was.

The problem on this whole incident.

Had the flag been thrown it would have been after the Fumble. The call on the field before the facemask would have been the fumble. And as the fumble was legit it would have stood.

The Cardinals would still have had the ball but been pushed back 15 yards from the spot of the foul.

The important bit: The flag wouldnt have over turned the Fumble.

Edit: Just to add watch the Videos. You will notice one of the refs throw a beanie as soon as the ball leaves Rodgers hand just before the hand hits the facemask. This indicates the Fumble was called. Now had a yellow flag followed it would have been after the fumble had already been called.

The Sparrow

Des ****ing Cahill ruined the Greenbay Arizona game on me this morning. I woke up to Morning Ireland on the Radio and before I can hit the off switch Cahill says that Arizona beat Greenbay in the highest scoring game in NFL playoff history.

WTF!!! They never mention American sports. I've been gutted all day:mad:

tallaghtoutlaws

The Sparrow wrote: »

Des ****ing Cahill ruined the Greenbay Arizona game on me this morning. I woke up to Morning Ireland on the Radio and before I can hit the off switch Cahill says that Arizona beat Greenbay in the highest scoring game in NFL playoff history.

WTF!!! They never mention American sports. I've been gutted all day:mad:

Wow that sucks. Typical they only report on American Sports when something significant happens.

Gisty

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

The problem on this whole incident.

Had the flag been thrown it would have been after the Fumble. The call on the field before the facemask would have been the fumble. And as the fumble was legit it would have stood.

The Cardinals would still have had the ball but been pushed back 15 yards from the spot of the foul.

The important bit: The flag wouldnt have over turned the Fumble.

Edit: Just to add watch the Videos. You will notice one of the refs throw a beanie as soon as the ball leaves Rodgers hand just before the hand hits the facemask. This indicates the Fumble was called. Now had a yellow flag followed it would have been after the fumble had already been called.

This is right. A facemask, or helmet to helmet or whatever you want to call it are all the same thing in the eyes of the rules. A personal foul. Presonal fouls are assesed after the play is finished. So the Cards would have got the ball anyway, but at about the 20. And then probably scored at will

kmart6

His hand slipped up onto the facemask....and as the NFL have come out and said,unintentional facemask penalties were eliminated before 2008!

Gisty

kmart6 wrote: »

His hand slipped up onto the facemask....and as the NFL have come out and said,unintentional facemask penalties were eliminated before 2008!

Yes they were eleminated because they were too hard to enforce. All facemask penalties became 15 yard penalties at that time. So if you so much as touch an opponant's facemask now, its 15 yards.

edit, nope seems as though I'm wrong on this one. COuld have sworn that's why the change was made. *shrugs shoulders* ah well

tallaghtoutlaws

kmart6 wrote: »

His hand slipped up onto the facemask....and as the NFL have come out and said,unintentional facemask penalties were eliminated before 2008!

Seems the NFL need to update their Rules then

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/penaltysummaries

Five Yards

# Grasping facemask of the ball carrier or quarterback.


Ten Yards

Twisting, turning, or pulling an opponent by the facemask.

Edit: Regardless of the facemask foul or no foul The Cardinals would have kept the ball anyways.

Gisty

I think even Rodgers not bitching about it shows that he knows that he blew that game with the big missed pass on the first play in OT. That was the game there, and he flat out missed the WR

tallaghtoutlaws

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/8759/nfl-offers-context-of-face-mask-ruling

Here is their official Stance on it.

copacetic

kmart6 wrote: »

His hand slipped up onto the facemask....and as the NFL have come out and said,unintentional facemask penalties were eliminated before 2008!

well spotted, from the link above

The NFL issued a rules explanation Monday in response to questions about the play. I got my hands on it this afternoon, and its general tone suggests that no illegal act occurred because Adams -- in the judgment of officials -- did not twist, turn or pull Rodgers’ facemask. An inadvertent grab is legal in part because of a 2008 rule revision.

tallaghtoutlaws

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

The problem on this whole incident.

Had the flag been thrown it would have been after the Fumble. The call on the field before the facemask would have been the fumble. And as the fumble was legit it would have stood.

Thought the team with possession retain it, even after they lose control of it, until the other side actually get their hands on it?

Lothaar

Gisty wrote: »

I think even Rodgers not bitching about it shows that he knows that he blew that game with the big missed pass on the first play in OT. That was the game there, and he flat out missed the WR

IMO that was the receiver's fault. They showed a replay from behind the ball, looking upfield. The WR makes a nice corner move to beat the safety and then breaks on a Post. He takes an angle towards the far front pylon at first. The moment Rodgers throws the ball, the WR redirects and goes straight upfield. He turns his head and sees the ball, which was thrown to his original path. He then has to redirect towards his right and can't make it to the ball.

If that WR had NOT redirected, that was a TD. He could have either come out of his break on the Post path, or stuck with the path that he chose. Because he made that extra redirection, he faked out the QB.

It's interesting, cos Aikman or Simms was saying in one of the weekend's games how QBs should throw the ball more across the field when throwing Posts if the WR is one on one deep. If they throw it straight down the middle, the DB has a chance to make a play. But if they throw it deep and towards the side that the WR has separation, they are creating extra separation for the WR and not giving the DB a chance to catch up.

Basically, it looked to me that Rodgers threw a perfect pass into the path of the WR... but the WR changed his path.

Also... Gisty, you've spent plenty of time in stripes, right? I thought that if a personal foul occurs before the fumble is recovered, then the ball should remain with the offense. No?

tallaghtoutlaws

Lothaar wrote: »

Also... Gisty, you've spent plenty of time in stripes, right? I thought that if a personal foul occurs before the fumble is recovered, then the ball should remain with the offense. No?

You know Andy I think your right, I tried going through the NFL Rulebook to get a better definition on it but as of yet unable to find it.

Edit: Packers Ball as Lothar said and I do stand corrected. Had Cards recovered before Facemask it was theirs anyway:

8.6.4 Article 4 When a foul occurs during a backward pass or fumble, the basic spot of enforcement is the spot of the fumble or the spot of the backward pass. If the offensive team fouls behind the spot of the fumble or backward pass, the spot of enforcement is the spot of the foul (14-1-5).


14.1.5 Article 5 The basic spots of enforcement (3-11-1) are:

(a) The previous spot for a forward pass (8-3-2); a scrimmage kick (9-1-17); or a free
kick (6-2-5).

(b) The dead ball spot on a running play (14-1-12).

(c) The spot of snap, backward pass, or fumble (8-4-4).

(d) The spot of the foul (14-1-4 and 14-1-13).

(e) The succeeding spot for dead ball fouls. When such a foul by the defense incurs a
penalty that results in the offensive team being short of the previous spot, the ball will be advanced to the previous spot.

Note: If a foul is committed during a run, a fumble, or a backward pass, the penalty is assessed from the basic spot if:

i) Defense fouls in advance of the basic spot
ii) Defense fouls behind the basic spot
iii) Offense fouls in advance of the basic spot

tallaghtoutlaws

Goes to show why Coaches on the sideline ask Refs to clarify the ruling on decisions sometimes. How refs manage to know that rule book inside out is beyond messy to get through. :D:D

Lothaar

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

How refs manage to know that rule book inside out is beyond messy to get through. :D:D

The way I see it, the rulebook is the refs' "playbook". Football players deal with just as much complicated info. Ok, so the rulebook is more about the written word, whereas playbooks tend to be more about diagrams, but it's not too different when it boils down to learning your position.


BTW... just to steer this back to my earlier comment. Did anyone else notice the WR's route on that missed TD opportunity? I was hoping to get some discussion going when I blamed the WR for what looked, on the surface, like a QB's mistake. I'm pretty sure Aaron will be widely blamed for missing that one - that's the story history will tell, unfortunately.

tallaghtoutlaws

Lothaar wrote: »

The way I see it, the rulebook is the refs' "playbook". Football players deal with just as much complicated info. Ok, so the rulebook is more about the written word, whereas playbooks tend to be more about diagrams, but it's not too different when it boils down to learning your position.

Oh I totally understand that part. Give me a playbook any day though. For me what makes the Rulebook difficult to manage is all the reference points and articles constantly going back and forth. But my hats of to them. A lot of folk don't think their job is hard in the first place. As you said they have a lot of responsibility also just like coaches and players.

The one pass I missed but you are the second person that I have heard put the onus on the WR. Trying to find a repeat of that play on you tube to have a look myself at it.