Mail order Brides

Wibbs

CDfm wrote: »

Well then Farmer Wibbs why are you looking for a wife -any wife - ??

Oh I'm defo not. Even if I had a farm

Presumably your friends have been burned by Irish women -itself an argument for a foreign wife and thumbs down for Miss Ireland.

Mostly irish but one eastern european. Men or women can be burned by any nationality really. I think some cultures are worse for it though. The self indulgent ones and the ones where men and women have this overwhelming sense of entitlement.

Its also an argument against guys marrying full stop.

Pretty much, unless you wanted children and you get lucky, which many many do of course. Too many men Ive known and know arent exactly the happiest being married. Or they married the wrong woman. Women too by the way. I know too many who have ended up in dead end situations at worst or very unfulfilling situations anyway. Cynic I may be, but IMHO maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 marriages I've known were mutually beneficial and had mutual growth involved. Where divorce is easy 50% seems to be the figure. In sweden its someting like 60+%. Cool even at that extreme a third are content enough. But how many of them are trapped financially or for the sake of the kids(women especially)? Yep Im a cynic about marriage.

The gay option might start to look attractive:P

Well I wouldnt go that far

metrovelvet

Wibbs wrote: »

Unless you marry each other outside ireland:) But yep the lack of prenup for both is not so good. Say I marry Madonna tomorrow and in 3 years time we divorce and I get millions? Her millions? Eh no. She worked her arse off for it I didnt, unless they consider sleeping with her work.

No. You are entitled to half of what was earned during the marriage. Being mr madonna is hard work. No privacy. A life in the public eye. Stalkers. Predators. It is a job.

CDfm

The Corinthian wrote: »

I explained the relevance earlier in a response to you.

Its fairly irrelevant really how does SATC even remotely help the OP go about looking for a Russian Bride.

Wibbs wrote: »

Unless you marry each other outside ireland:) But yep the lack of prenup for both is not so good. Say I marry Madonna tomorrow and in 3 years time we divorce and I get millions? Her millions? Eh no. She worked her arse off for it I didnt, unless they consider sleeping with her work.

I dont know Wibbs there is something of the Elisabeth Bathory about her and maybe she want to steal your youth.

CDfm

This link here says that there is a real shortage of good Russian men and thats why the girls look abroad.

http://www.womenrussia.com/mail_order_brides/

Russian women that decide to look for a husband abroad, don't choose between Russian men and foreign men - they choose between staying single and having a family and a husband.

In Russia, women outnumber men (there are 10 million more women than men, according to the latest census, or 88 males for 100 females - statistics according to The Economist, "World in Figures, 2004 Edition"), and in most situations it is a question of luck if a woman manages to find herself a man or not. Russians marry early, and at the age of 25 most people are already married. If a man is not married, it can only mean he is not willing to commit - even bad men can find themselves a wife! Women must act fast if they want to get married and to ensure that they have a husband, one can only hope he will be a good man. There were even talks about changing the family legislation so that it would allow men to have multiply wives so that there would be competition among men too. (This is not a joke; this question was discussed in Russian parliament.)

Wibbs

metrovelvet wrote: »

No. You are entitled to half of what was earned during the marriage. Being mr madonna is hard work. No privacy. A life in the public eye. Stalkers. Predators. It is a job.

No its not. It also has serious perks. Her security get paid but they dont get half her earnings.

CDfm

Wibbs wrote: »

No its not. It also has serious perks. Her security get paid but they dont get half her earnings.

What age is she now -50 - Maddie could do a lot worse than you Wibbs -if she does ask me for my advice I will tell her to go for it.

The Corinthian

CDfm wrote: »

Its fairly irrelevant really how does SATC even remotely help the OP go about looking for a Russian Bride.

It doesn't, which is why I said it was OT.

The Corinthian

Wibbs wrote: »

No its not. It also has serious perks. Her security get paid but they dont get half her earnings.

The whole divorce, alimony thing is a bit OT too to this thread, however...

To suggest that being a spouse automatically entitles one to half the earnings/assets of even the duration of the marriage is simply surreal self-entitlement. Madonna, for example can earn several million in one year, but only because she built up her career from nothing. So someone could marry her for a year and get half of that year's income, effectively cashing in on the groundwork done long before they were around, without having in any way contributing to this.

Bare in mind, I am not suggesting that spouses do not have genuine entitlements when a marriage ends. Some spouses (Mel Gibson's wife comes to mind) were there on the way up and were very much part of the success of their spouse. But to consider it an automatic entitlement just because of marriage, is another thing.

CDfm

But its not the case that these marriages in the USA have high divorce rates 80% survive so the divorce rate is 1 in 5 compared to 1 in 3 in Ireland (and Europe) - so these marriages have a greatwer chance of success.

I think the Russian and Thai brides are way ahead on lots of fronts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail-order_bride#Divorce_rate

The United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) reports that "...marriages arranged through these services would appear to have a lower divorce rate than the nation as a whole, fully 80 percent of these marriages having lasted over the years for which reports are available." [4] The USCIS also reports that "... mail-order bride and e-mail correspondence services result in 4,000 to 6,000 marriages between U.S. men and foreign brides each year."

Now a number of studies show that Irish Women are generally unhappy about lots of things but this study by Accord indicates that Irish Women dont adjust to marriage to the same level that men do

http://www.mensproject.org/issues/aims10.pdf
The mean DAS score for women (75) is much lower than that of men (85), indicating a
much lower level of marital adjustment. This finding is consistent with other research
which, in general, shows that women have more negative perceptions of unsatisfactory
marital relationships than men. Moreover there is a good deal of evidence to suggest that
this may be related to the fact that women’s self-concept tends to be based more on
"relational interdependence", while men’s tends to be based on "personal independence",
with the result that negative interactions and emotions within marriage tend to have a more
negative impact on the self-concept of women than of men.

I mean a less articulate and less rounded person than me might very well conclude that in comparison to mail order brides irishwomen are moany begrudging prima donnas.


Edit: Do Irish women consider financial security when selecting a mate - well I think so - so why should a mail order bride be any different.

Smallbit

this may already have been said but I can't be bothered reading through the entire post, but seriously guys the mail-order bride thing is such a cliche.

You can spot these couples a mile off (well we women usually can!). There's just something so sad about the usual stereotype of a nerdy/chubby/baldy/ugly bloke with a (usually) Asian woman with very little English language skills.

Yeah I know there are exceptions but it all just screams "I couldn't get a western woman to touch me so I bought an economically dependent bride..."

Sorry if I've offended anyone here...

CDfm

Smallbit wrote: »

You can spot these couples a mile off (well we women usually can!). There's just something so sad about the usual stereotype of a nerdy/chubby/baldy/ugly bloke with a (usually) Asian woman with very little English language skills.

LOL - thats a cool image and its says more about you then the guys.

Yeah I know there are exceptions but it all just screams "I couldn't get a western woman to touch me so I bought an economically dependent bride..."

Touchy - the "so I bought bit" tsk tsk

Now Im sure all those Irish stay at home mums and homemakers will love to be called stay at economically depebdent brides too and there are a few hundred thousand of them.Edit 526,000 according to the CSO. So thats the alternative an Irish economically dependent bride.So the guy is no longer available to potential Irish homemakers and is "off the market".

So ya might say he gets a young pretty bride and maybe he didnt want whats available to him in Ireland.

It kinda screams Irish women dont do it for me too:pac:

Dont get me wrong I have an Irish partner but many Irish women are very negative about life and dont have attractive personality traits so I can understand why a person goes the foreign route.

Smallbit

CDfm wrote: »

LOL - thats a cool image and its says more about you then the guys.

How exactly? Does it 'prove' I'm shallow, or realistic?!

CDfm wrote: »

So ya might say he gets a young pretty bride and maybe he didnt want whats available to him in Ireland.

It kinda screams Irish women dont do it for me too:pac:

Oh c'mon, that's a sweeping generalisation too! You don't have to organise a mail-order bride either. Ireland is full of women of all nationalities. My point is that I believe some men are afraid of the normal process of meeting and getting to know females. Perhaps they assume they will be rebuffed, or are too lazy to put in the work?! I just think the mail-order route is a cop-out... Of course there are economically dependent irish brides, but most take that choice, but we're talking about importing mail-order brides that mostly don't have the choice and are essentially economic migrants.

CDfm wrote: »

Dont get me wrong I have an Irish partner but many Irish women are very negative about life and dont have attractive personality traits so I can understand why a person goes the foreign route.

OK, so this I fully agree with. I'm Irish, and so is my partner, and he has made the same point about *some* Irish women. And yes I know my single friends in their 40's are probably single because of their attitudes.

But does this mean the only option is mail-order? I don't think so...

Blitzkrieger

CDfm wrote: »

This link here says that there is a real shortage of good Russian men and thats why the girls look abroad.

Shouldn't that be true everywhere? Not Russian men specifically obviously, but the world as a whole is 66% female. Mormon-hold'em aside, isn't there only a husband for half the population?

Wibbs

CDfm wrote: »

I mean a less articulate and less rounded person than me might very well conclude that in comparison to mail order brides irishwomen are moany begrudging prima donnas.

I think its because they have more expectations. They've been sold more expectations too. Its very prevalent in this country especially in the last 15 odd years. The big social show of the engagement, the eating a grape a day for 6 months to squeeze into the dress, the silly expense aimed at the wedding day. The fairy tale basically. And they all lived happily ever after. Problem is like fairy tales they never tell you how. TBH in that environment Im not surprised women in this culture can have a let down period after the confetti stops falling. The "is this it?' feeling. Men dont have it I think because they're not the social focus of all that. Their job is to turn up basically. Less pressure on them. It was not always thus either. Im old enough to remember a different more easy going vibe. In both genders.

So I would say we in this culture have consumerised so many aspects of love and life and marriage. we make a big deal over the things that we can spend money on and all too often ignore the more important things. And it happened rapidly too. Add in the feeling of entitlement that grew with the celtic tiger and again Im not surprised there is an element of truth to women being unsatisfied and men wondering why.

Women from other cultures may not have this to the same degree. Though many do. American women for example*. It would be interesting to see if foreign marriages are more common in the UK/Ireland/US than in places like France Spain Sweden Italy etc?

Plus as others have said, there appears to be more and more men who are less competitive, for want of a better word, in the dating marriage game. They may have a lot of love and support to give a family but are otherwise left out of the marriage pool. That I suspect may get worse rather than better too. The PUA meme is a symptom of that IMHO.


*Well a certain type of American woman. America has too many diverse cultures to call the whole country. A Hispanic woman is going to be a very different kettle of fish to a White Manhattanite say. Actually I read a very interesting study on the marriage and reproductive trends among different groups of American women. Some quite major diffs

The Corinthian

Smallbit wrote: »

this may already have been said but I can't be bothered reading through the entire post

...and this is where I stopped reading.

CDfm

Smallbit wrote: »

How exactly? Does it 'prove' I'm shallow, or realistic?!

No but you have a perception - maybe they met at college or thru boards at a beers.

Ya wouldn't say way to go Paddy with the hot babe - you look down on them whereas I would say way to go my man.

. Of course there are economically dependent irish brides, but most take that choice, but we're talking about importing mail-order brides that mostly don't have the choice and are essentially economic migrants.

Yes but you dont have to be a foreign woman to marry for economic reasons.There is also the bit about attraction.

OK, so this I fully agree with. I'm Irish, and so is my partner, and he has made the same point about *some* Irish women. And yes I know my single friends in their 40's are probably single because of their attitudes.

So maybe Irish guys feel they are taken for granted.

Say if one of your single friends with a charisma by-pass had designs on your brother or a close male friend and the alternative was a nice foreign girl who would make him happy -what would you suggest.

Smallbit

CDfm wrote: »

No but you have a perception - maybe they met at college or thru boards at a beers.

Ya wouldn't say way to go Paddy with the hot babe - you look down on them whereas I would say way to go my man.

I don't look down on them! I question the need for a mail order approach. I suppose any situation where one sees the stereotypical combination of an older guy with an attractive younger foreign woman, would tend to make me suspect the circumstances around the establishment of the relationship. My criticism is of the mail-order approach, or the leverage of economic factors in the establishment of a relationship.

There's a huge difference in terms of choice between a western woman choosing to become a stay-at-home mum, and a woman who decides to marry a complete stranger in a foreign country to escape the economic conditions in her own country.

CDfm wrote: »

Say if one of your single friends with a charisma by-pass had designs on your brother or a close male friend and the alternative was a nice foreign girl who would make him happy -what would you suggest.

Of course I would suggest my brother does what makes him happy - he's already married to an Australian woman, but he didn't order her online... :rolleyes:

CDfm

Smallbit wrote: »

I don't look down on them! I question the need for a mail order approach. I suppose any situation where one sees the stereotypical combination of an older guy with an attractive younger foreign woman, would tend to make me suspect the circumstances around the establishment of the relationship. My criticism is of the mail-order approach, or the leverage of economic factors in the establishment of a relationship.

my approach is so what -when its a woman its empowering.

There's a huge difference in terms of choice between a western woman choosing to become a stay-at-home mum, and a woman who decides to marry a complete stranger in a foreign country to escape the economic conditions in her own country.

How is it so huge please explain as I dont see it..

Thats like saying a guy does not have a choice about who he marries and for what reason. If he finds a womans cultural perspectives more in line with his so what. Just thinking of the friends I have with foreign spouses who both started with nothing.

I hate to say it but when you put it down to economic dependents don't you think a guy has a right to spend his money how he wants.

OK, so this I fully agree with. I'm Irish, and so is my partner, and he has made the same point about *some* Irish women. And yes I know my single friends in their 40's are probably single because of their attitudes.

maybe these would not be worth the money

Of course I would suggest my brother does what makes him happy - he's already married to an Australian woman, but he didn't order her online... :rolleyes:

So even your own brother went for a non irish woman and yet you criticize other men. :rolleyes:

Well say he was a farmer from Sligo or a butcher from Timahoe he might only have 2 weeks a year to find a woman and of course he look on line.He may not find an Irish woman on line but they still cost the same and the weddings will be lots cheaper.

The Corinthian

Smallbit wrote: »

There's a huge difference in terms of choice between a western woman choosing to become a stay-at-home mum, and a woman who decides to marry a complete stranger in a foreign country to escape the economic conditions in her own country.

Not a Hell of a lot in some cases. There is no shortage of 'Western women' out there who use speed dating, dating sites, blind dates or any other manner of means to meet eligible men, whom they fast-track down the family way, going from first meeting to first child in under two years (including pregnancy), which generally means they're already engaged within six months of meeting.

TBH, while these guys not complete strangers, these women have not exactly spent all that long to get to know them before making a life-long commitment, which ultimately was their aim, not the man they are making it with.

Smallbit

CDfm wrote: »

my approach is so what -when its a woman its empowering.

I don't believe that is true though some women may chose to believe so. I have no problem with asserting myself, but I don't believe i have more rights than a man.

CDfm wrote: »

How is it so huge please explain as I dont see it..

Choice! when was the last time an Irish woman had to get married so that someone would maintain her. The huge difference is in mail order brides having fewer choices. It's no coincidence that most come from countries that are economically depressed or where there is no social welfare or free health system in operation.

CDfm wrote: »

Thats like saying a guy does not have a choice about who he marries and for what reason. If he finds a womans cultural perspectives more in line with his so what. Just thinking of the friends I have with foreign spouses who both started with nothing.

Once again, I'm not making a comparison between sexes - I'm not a rampaging feminist arguing for the rights of women. It's just as much an issue for a male to marry a western female for the sole purpose of gaining entry to a country.

CDfm wrote: »

I hate to say it but when you put it down to economic dependents don't you think a guy has a right to spend his money how he wants.

Of course he does! I'm simply saying that it's not an ideal basis for a relationship when one party is in it for reasons other than love, respect, friendship and so on.

CDfm wrote: »

So even your own brother went for a non irish woman and yet you criticize other men. :rolleyes:

Well say he was a farmer from Sligo or a butcher from Timahoe he might only have 2 weeks a year to find a woman and of course he look on line.He may not find an Irish woman on line but they still cost the same and the weddings will be lots cheaper.

Argh! you're just not hearing me!! Mail order marriages don't keep me awake at night. I am simply making the point that it's not about going for non-irish women (I'm the first to admit that some of my friends actually piss me off with their attitude). It's about relationships that inherently rely on a pre-condition of implied financial security. It's absolutely possible that many may flourish, that love might grow, or that they may sometimes be as successful or rather as lasting as other relationships.

But I stick with my original point that in the main, there is an inevitable apprehension, or doubt when one meets a couple in this position (I have as part of my profession).

CDfm

Smallbit wrote: »

I don't believe that is true though some women may chose to believe so. I have no problem with asserting myself, but I don't believe i have more rights than a man.

There was a thread about law and marriage and the sexes on this forum (it seems to lost) but on the rights and benefits legally and finacially women do better of than men on divorce or seperation than men. Especially child custody and the family home. Its written in the constitution.

Choice! when was the last time an Irish woman had to get married so that someone would maintain her. The huge difference is in mail order brides having fewer choices. It's no coincidence that most come from countries that are economically depressed or where there is no social welfare or free health system in operation.

Over 525,000 women are in that situation compared to 7,000 men. I suppose you could call it a perk

Once again, I'm not making a comparison between sexes - I'm not a rampaging feminist arguing for the rights of women. It's just as much an issue for a male to marry a western female for the sole purpose of gaining entry to a country.

It happens yes but this is about long term relationships that endure more sucessfully than marriage in Europe or America. Something must be going right if they work.

Of course he does! I'm simply saying that it's not an ideal basis for a relationship when one party is in it for reasons other than love, respect, friendship and so on.

Thats debateable many people marry for status

Mrs Cowan married Brian for his good looks

Argh! you're just not hearing me!! Mail order marriages don't keep me awake at night. I am simply making the point that it's not about going for non-irish women (I'm the first to admit that some of my friends actually piss me off with their attitude).

So you agree then that its reasonable for a man to look at mail order/on line marriage as an alternative to some of your friends.

It's about relationships that inherently rely on a pre-condition of implied financial security. It's absolutely possible that many may flourish, that love might grow, or that they may sometimes be as successful or rather as lasting as other relationships.

Liots of marriages fail over financial stresses -not just these and I imagine these would tend to be more financially secure.

But lots survive to because of the fun and companionship quotient.

But I stick with my original point that in the main, there is an inevitable apprehension, or doubt when one meets a couple in this position (I have as part of my profession).

Of course, and that is your right but lots of Irish guys dont want to marry and some when they marry choose to marry non Irish women.

eviltwin

Can't be bothered reading the whole thread, far too long

Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't be bothered if a male friend of mine settled with a foreign women regardless of where he met her as long as she wasn't being forced into it for any reason.

I do think that its a bit of a strange way to meet someone though given the abundance of single Irish people ( or foreign nationals living here ) who are single..just look at the sheer volume of online dating sites for Irish people.

As for marriage, it takes work, time and committiment to get it right. I was with my boyfriend for nearly 13 years before we got married, it was only then that we felt we were in the right place to do it. I can't see how that level of committment can be achieved when you meet the person only a handful of times

The Corinthian

eviltwin wrote: »

Can't be bothered reading the whole thread, far too long

What is it about some people who seem not bother making an effort to listen the opinion of others, yet are convinced that their own opinion is vital? Are they special?

milod

Smallbit wrote: »

Argh! you're just not hearing me!! Mail order marriages don't keep me awake at night. I am simply making the point that it's not about going for non-irish women (I'm the first to admit that some of my friends actually piss me off with their attitude). It's about relationships that inherently rely on a pre-condition of implied financial security. It's absolutely possible that many may flourish, that love might grow, or that they may sometimes be as successful or rather as lasting as other relationships.

But I stick with my original point that in the main, there is an inevitable apprehension, or doubt when one meets a couple in this position (I have as part of my profession).

Interesting point I suppose, and having had a two year relationship with a Thai woman, I can confirm that we met with some apprehension and I was asked by one dickhead "where did you buy her...?"

I finished the relationship because her primary focus was settling down to some sort of financial security, so I suppose a mail-order solution would have had the exact same effect?

It's also refreshing to hear a woman admitting that there might be an attitude problem among a certain strata of irish women. It's certainly been my finding since I returned to Ireland a few years ago. Having said that, I did manage to find a very agreeable irishwoman with whom I'm very happy.

eviltwin

The Corinthian wrote: »

What is it about some people who seem not bother making an effort to listen the opinion of others, yet are convinced that their own opinion is vital? Are they special?

I'm just giving my two cents on the OP's question. Don't get your knickers in a twist.

The Corinthian

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm just giving my two cents on the OP's question. Don't get your knickers in a twist.

I'm not sure what is worse:

• Not making an effort to read the opinions of others, while expecting us to read your own opinion?
• Giving an opinion out of context with the rest of the discussion, resulting in repetition and irrelevancy - noise?
• Or that you thought it was a good idea to start your post with the equivalent of the words "I don't care for anyone else's opinion other than my own" and then getting upset when people reacted badly to this.

CDfm

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm just giving my two cents on the OP's question. Don't get your knickers in a twist.

Presumably - you support the Wibbs/Madona nuptuals and think he should put the fears about the farm and the cut donley to one side

Its highly perjorative to suggest that any gentleman is wearing ladies underwear. Jocks in a knot would be a good translation.

LostinBlanch

CDfm wrote: »

Presumably - you support the Wibbs/Madona nuptuals and think he should put the fears about the farm and the cut donley to one side

Wibbs and Madonna, I thought he'd moved on, and it was now Wibbs & Iris Robinson? /sh*tstirring :P

As for Russian Women, I know one who had married a farmer over the west and was with him just as long as it took her to get what she wanted, and then she was outta there quicker than you can say "bye". It all seemed so cold and calculated

Not saying all are like that but I guess it's something you have to take into account.

CDfm

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Wibbs and Madonna, I thought he'd moved on, and it was now Wibbs & Iris Robinson? /sh*tstirring :P

I heard a rumour about her getting one on one counselling .Wibbs you say:p

As for Russian Women, I know one who had married a farmer over the west and was with him just as long as it took her to get what she wanted, and then she was outta there quicker than you can say "bye". It all seemed so cold and calculated

Not saying all are like that but I guess it's something you have to take into account.

I think you will get a percentage -but you get that with Irish women too.

Another issue will be whether or not there are kids. Anyone doubtful about marriage should look at family planning issues carefully and lifestyle issues as these are huge criteria on Maintenance on a marriage breakdown.

Not putting a damper on things but Irish women are the same.

The Corinthian

However, even if we accept that regardless whether a marriage came about of a chance meeting, personal advert or mail order application there are socio-economic agendas, you would have to admit that anyone entering a marriage contract without having done due diligence is placing themselves in considerable risk, especially where the agenda might override all other considerations.

And I use the term due diligence with good reason, because at the end of the day, marriage is a contract, even after any romance is long gone. In fact, thanks to no-fault divorce, it is the only contract in existence that can be unilaterally terminated or terms broken without penalty.

So I would contend that it is very difficult for anyone, male or female, to do competent due diligence on a prospective spouse if they have had little or no direct assessment prior to marriage. Historically this was done via neutral third parties, matchmakers, but somehow, I don't really see the mail order spouse industry really filling that role.

This would be my principle criticism of 'mail order brides' - not that it is in any way immoral or, as some of the more erudite posters have said, sad, but that there is a high risk for either or both parties to end up with a disastrous or mismatched spouse.

Given this, I don't think that many Western matches are much better. Many thirtysomething marriages seem to be rushed affairs that see a couple go from meeting to their first child within two or three years - probably because the agendas, and biological constraints, demand that any such due diligence be skipped over.