Mail order Brides

Darith

Anyone got advice on the above topic. I admit the the heading is a bit crude and one does not actually order brides over the internet but i think everyone gets my meaning. I want know personal experiences and any advice one could give on the above matter as i am considering it myself. Which nationalities are the best; whom are the most faithful etc

corkcomp

Darith wrote: »

Anyone got advice on the above topic. I admit the the heading is a bit crude and one does not actually order brides over the internet but i think everyone gets my meaning. I want know personal experiences and any advice one could give on the above matter as i am considering it myself. Which nationalities are the best; whom are the most faithful etc

please tell me you are joking? (Obviously:P) I dont have personal experience but I could tell ya few stories and none good. apparently thai brides are the most faithful though actually you have to be taking the p**s, nobody really considering this would be looking for advice on here surely?

Beruthiel

I am reminded of a thread in AH many years back where someone posted about his Russian bride.

Gaz

Its pathetic and you will get screwed , and not in the good way. Its no different to prostitution in my opinion.

Sort your self out, join a club or a gym, improve yourself and your confidence then get out there and meet a good woman.

Paulegend

dudes...........................

leave him alone:) listen op the guys are right but are telling you in the wrong way. ok mail order brides you prob shouldnt consider(if your being serious:D). get to the gym go out to proper bars dress up properly and get chatting. dont listen to your biological ticking clock:D go out and meet someone the right way. although it will prob cost more:rolleyes:

Khannie

Actually, I have changed my view on this a bit over the last while. I've spent some time in Thailand (training on my own and holidaying with family). The first time I was there I went on my own, purely to train and spent nearly all my time up north which is a lot poorer and less touristy than the south. Anyway, I noticed a lot of middle aged men with good looking young Thai women. At the time I thought it a bit weird, but actually I don't see any harm in it now because:

The man gets: The company and comfort of having a lady. Also, Thai women are generally happy to look after a man (cook, clean, etc.) where western women see themselves as equals (I'm not commenting here, just pointing out a cultural difference).

The woman gets: a (relatively speaking) wealthy husband. Western men also (generally) view women on a more equal footing than would be the norm in Thailand (or anywhere in south-east Asia).

So it's a win / win really.

So yeah....it's not the norm here, but so what?

helimachoptor

A guy i work with got married 2 months ago to a Russian one, she's now living over here.
Basically he's an american who married and irish woman in the states, things went pear shaped and he moved over here. got a bit lonely and isnt exactly handsome, so he found some website, flew over for 2 weeks met a girl, chatted online for a few weeks, met her in Malta got married, she flew back to Russia to sort out her visa and then she flew over here.

Mental, hasnt said how much she cost him though.

Chinafoot

Khannie wrote: »

The man gets: The company and comfort of having a lady. Also, Thai women are generally happy to look after a man (cook, clean, etc.) where western women see themselves as equals (I'm not commenting here, just pointing out a cultural difference).

The woman gets: a (relatively speaking) wealthy husband. Western men also (generally) view women on a more equal footing than would be the norm in Thailand (or anywhere in south-east Asia).

I would assume that the type of man who thinks its ok to buy a woman wouldn't really be the type who sees them as their equal.

To me its very much on a par with prostitution.

Khannie

Chinafoot wrote: »

I would assume that the type of man who thinks its ok to buy a woman wouldn't really be the type who sees them as their equal.

Nobody's buying anybody though....it's not that simple.... (edit: maybe there are instances where it is that simple, but I haven't come across any).

Chinafoot wrote: »

To me its very much on a par with prostitution.

I don't see it as being anything like prostitution. The ladies who do it are looking for a life partner who will be kind to them and someone who has the means to make life comfortable for them (let's not pretend that money's not an issue for lots of ladies in Ireland too please). The men who do it are looking for a life partner who will be kind to them and make them feel loved. They essentially enter a mutually beneficial arrangement.

I consider it more like arranged marriages. Culturally unacceptable here, but I don't always see my culture as being "correct". Who's to say what's correct?

I saw a really good documentary on it before (not the Louis Theroux one). Was very interesting indeed.

Stheno

Khannie wrote: »

Nobody's buying anybody though....it's not that simple....

I don't see it as being anything like prostitution. The ladies who do it are looking for a life partner who will be kind to them and someone who has the means to make life comfortable for them (let's not pretend that money's not an issue for lots of ladies in Ireland too please). The men who do it are looking for a life partner who will be kind to them and make them feel loved. They essentially enter a mutually beneficial arrangement.

I consider it more like arranged marriages. Culturally unacceptable here, but I don't always see my culture as being "correct". Who's to say what's correct?

I'd tend to agree with what you are saying above.

I saw a really good documentary on it before (not the Louis Theroux one). Was very interesting indeed.

Is the Louis Theroux one the one that was on sky a few weeks back?

Khannie

nouggatti wrote: »

Is the Louis Theroux one the one that was on sky a few weeks back?

Couldn't tell you. I don't have sky. His one made for good watching too. It was a bit more....seedy though. Was set in Bangkok and there was one proper sleazebag in it. Can't remember the finer details of the other one that I saw, but it was a real eye opener. Made no social commentary in it, just presented the facts and left the final conclusion as an exercise for the viewer kind of thing.

Stheno

Khannie wrote: »

Couldn't tell you. I don't have sky. His one made for good watching too. It was a bit more....seedy though. Was set in Bangkok and there was one proper sleazebag in it. Can't remember the finer details of the other one that I saw, but it was a real eye opener. Made no social commentary in it, just presented the facts and left the final conclusion as an exercise for the viewer kind of thing.

Ah right, the one I am thinking of focussed exclusively on Russian Mail Order brides, was very to the point and factual and presented the views of both the men and women involved very well.

It wasn't at all seedy either, it was actually slightly emotive in a couple of cases where a trial stay with each other didnt' work out for the couples.

Aidric

Khannie wrote: »

Couldn't tell you. I don't have sky. His one made for good watching too. It was a bit more....seedy though. Was set in Bangkok and there was one proper sleazebag in it. Can't remember the finer details of the other one that I saw, but it was a real eye opener. Made no social commentary in it, just presented the facts and left the final conclusion as an exercise for the viewer kind of thing.

Haha. That programme was the first thing that came in to my head when I saw this thread title. Your man was ex army and ugly as sin, he was practically asking the Thai woman to marry him after one cocktail.

Macha

Khannie wrote: »

I don't see it as being anything like prostitution. The ladies who do it are looking for a life partner who will be kind to them and someone who has the means to make life comfortable for them (let's not pretend that money's not an issue for lots of ladies in Ireland too please). The men who do it are looking for a life partner who will be kind to them and make them feel loved. They essentially enter a mutually beneficial arrangement.

OK there are serious questions over these types of relationships. Firstly, it is no coincidence that many of the women in question are very poor. And even if they are not poor by their own national standards, they are poor by the standards of the man's society.

Secondly, the women are brought up in a society that teaches them that finding a man to provide for them is the way forward, not actually providing for themselves. This creates the kind of dependency in some women that some men love. I have seen documentaries and research on some (note please I said "some") of the men that go looking for brides in societies where women are taught to be more submissive. They complain about women in their own countries being too "demanding" (read: assertive) and not feminine enough (read: not submissive enough).

Equal relationships are about equal power. These relationships are not about equality - they are based on the total absence of equality. Please again note I'm not talking about every relationship between a woman and a foreign man.

My other issue with mail order brides is that they perpetuate the idea that women are things to be bought and sold.

Khannie wrote: »

I consider it more like arranged marriages. Culturally unacceptable here, but I don't always see my culture as being "correct". Who's to say what's correct?

Cultural relativism is a very, very grey area.

Khannie

taconnol wrote: »

OK there are serious questions over these types of relationships. Firstly, it is no coincidence that many of the women in question are very poor. And even if they are not poor by their own national standards, they are poor by the standards of the man's society.

I think that's where the mutually beneficial part comes in.

taconnol wrote: »

Secondly, the women are brought up in a society that teaches them that finding a man to provide for them is the way forward, not actually providing for themselves. This creates the kind of dependency in some women that some men love.

You could argue the same about assertive women in the west. Plenty of men (myself included) would be put off by an entirely submissive woman.

taconnol wrote: »

I have seen documentaries and research on some (note please I said "some") of the men that go looking for brides in societies where women are taught to be more submissive. They complain about women in their own countries being too "demanding" (read: assertive) and not feminine enough (read: not submissive enough).

That's what they like though. I've no problem with that personally. Different strokes for different folks and all.

taconnol wrote: »

Equal relationships are about equal power. These relationships are not about equality - they are based on the total absence of equality. Please again note I'm not talking about every relationship between a woman and a foreign man.

My other issue with mail order brides is that they perpetuate the idea that women are things to be bought and sold.

So yeah, there was no cash exchanged in the ones that I saw so no "sale" as such. I mean, obviously the woman was getting the more comfortable life than she currently had, but there wasn't any money explicity changing hands.

I should add that it works both ways....while on holidays in Cuba before at a kind of locals bar (crackin' night out) we met a young, disgracefully handsome Cuban guy who was with a French woman in her mid-forties. We got talking to him and he was quite open about it being based on two things: 1) She was gonna get him out of Cuba and 2) She was minted (he told us that she owned hotels, plural).

taconnol wrote: »

Cultural relativism is a very, very grey area.

Yeah, it's great! One of the things I like most about traveling is that it makes you question things that you've taken as being "the right way" when you see how other cultures differ from ours.

CDfm

I worked with an English guy years ago and he wasnt very old or ugly and he married a Thai girl who was very pretty after as he put it he had gotten sick of Western Girls.

She was a real pet and AFAIK they are still together and the deal was that he would keep her and she marry him.It wasnt too different to a farmer I knew who was matched up with a local farmers daughter when I was growing up.

Another guy I know who married an eastern european girl did not get on too well -so I guess it depends on the culture and the people involved on how compatable they are and if they go about it in a way that they intend it to work. Very much like any couple really.

pikachucheeks

As Khannie's pointed out, with mail order brides, the relationship serves as a comfort to both people in the relationship and both parties gain.

However, my one concern is that I do feel marriage should be between two people who genuinely love each other and want to signify their bond and devotion to each other...*

I think in this day and age though, marriage is being broken down in to two separate channels ; There's marriage for love and then marriage for companionship.
The dynamics of the ceremony have changed radically, with the invention of mail order brides and such other schemes.

* My perception is that with mail order brides, the marriage happens relatively soon after meeting, rather than letting the relationship develop and the relationship is formed based on both parties wanting to gain something, rather than having a connection with / attraction to the other person.
Not sure if this is accurate.

Khannie wrote: »

I noticed a lot of middle aged men with good looking young Thai women.

Out of interest, why is it generally older men and much younger women?

I'm guessing because the men like having a younger, desirable woman on their arm and the women presume the men to be financially stable?

The Corinthian

pikachucheeks wrote: »

However, my one concern is that I do feel marriage should be between two people who genuinely love each other and want to signify their bond and devotion to each other...*

This is a modern Western invention that gradually began a few hundred years ago until it became the raison d'etre for marriage (you can even see how this shift occurred in literature). Prior to this marriage was primarily about family and resources with the implication that love would come later.

If you treat mail order brides as a form of arranged marriage, then I suppose there is nothing wrong with this as long as both are genuine and consensual. However, I would be very weary of a system that is potentially so open to abuse and fraud. If you want to 'arrange' your own marriage, you're safer to join a dating site - it's basically the same idea TBH.

pikachucheeks

The Corinthian wrote: »

If you want to 'arrange' your own marriage, you're safer to join a dating site - it's basically the same idea TBH.

Essentially is the same idea ; setting up a profile on a website and getting in touch with people you're interested in.
Although, I think the marriages are a lot more urgent with mail order bride services, than dating sites. They're specifically designed for men and women who want to marry someone, rather than just date and have a bit of fun!

Just did a quick google and found this story (it's from May of last year, so it's a bit dated. Apologies to anyone who's seen it already):

breakingnews.ie wrote:

Actor Alec Baldwin has apologised for a quip over Filipina mail-order brides following strong protest from the south east Asian nation.

The star of '30 Rock' joked on 'The Late Show with David Letterman' that he wanted more children and was “thinking about getting a Filipino mail-order bride at this point, or a Russian one”.

The comment, made last week, resulted in a rebuke from the Philippine government, and a warning from one politician that he would personally beat Baldwin if he set foot in the country.

Senator Ramon Revilla, a former actor, called the joke “insensitive and uncalled-for”. A letter from the Philippine consul general Cecilia Rebong to the actor described the comment as “offensive and prejudiced”.

I'm not sure whether this means they take mail order brides seriously over there, or are embarrassed of it (by the reputation they've received).

The Corinthian

pikachucheeks wrote: »

Although, I think the marriages are a lot more urgent with mail order bride services, than dating sites.

Holiday visas make for short courtships.

They're specifically designed for men and women who want to marry someone, rather than just date and have a bit of fun!

I suggest you read the profiles on some dating sites. Most are looking for "serious relationships" rather than "a bit of fun" and that generally translates to some form of commitment down the line, especially once they hit their thirties.

pikachucheeks

The Corinthian wrote: »

I suggest you read the profiles on some dating sites. Most are looking for "serious relationships" rather than "a bit of fun" and that generally translates to some form of commitment down the line, especially once they hit their thirties.

Suppose so. But it's still not the same level of ... desperation to get married that a mail order bride service would have.
Or maybe, my perceptions of dating sites are completely wrong!

CDfm

pikachucheeks wrote: »

Suppose so. But it's still not the same level of ... desperation to get married that a mail order bride service would have.
Or maybe, my perceptions of dating sites are completely wrong!

Or maybe its not as up front - a person in a mail order marriage is an economic migrant and needs a visa so yes there will be a commitment required.

No marriage no visa and there are rules.

The Corinthian

pikachucheeks wrote: »

Suppose so. But it's still not the same level of ... desperation to get married that a mail order bride service would have.

Just because something is more subtle does not make it less desperate. It just makes it look less desperate.

This is not to say that mail order brides works as a concept. IMHO, there is too much scope for abuse and even if you do want to 'arrange' your marriage, I'm not sure you can do so this way - even in societies where the couple don't meet until the last minute, you'll have matchmakers (typically family) who assess whether the match is is viable or not and I don't think that mail order bride companies are so impartial.

Given this, neither do I think that the Western ideal is any better or, ultimately, different. We're just more hypocritical; why are lavish wedding days and big engagement rings so desired if it really is just about love?

Macha

Khannie wrote: »

I think that's where the mutually beneficial part comes in.

The degree to which these relationships are mutually beneficial is open for debate.

Khannie wrote: »

You could argue the same about assertive women in the west. Plenty of men (myself included) would be put off by an entirely submissive woman.

Where are all the assertive women looking for passive foreign husbands? No doubt there are some but it is no coincidence that the vast majority are men. Men usually have the means and desire for a docile woman (providing the demand) and the women they look for are poor and socially conditioned to be docile or realise that acting as such is a decent chance at a good life (providing the supply). They can also be conditioned to view themselves as objects for sale to the highest bidder. The groups of supply and demand just don't exist to the same extent when the roles are reversed for obvious reasons.

Khannie wrote: »

That's what they like though. I've no problem with that personally. Different strokes for different folks and all.

I have a problem with it because what is wrong with these people that they want submissive partners? Are they so insecure and afraid of a person who might stand up to them and have their own opinion or want their own way? And what is the ultimate aim of having a submissive partner? Having someone you can push around and tell what to do - in other words emotional abuse that can often lead to physical abuse.

Khannie wrote: »

So yeah, there was no cash exchanged in the ones that I saw so no "sale" as such. I mean, obviously the woman was getting the more comfortable life than she currently had, but there wasn't any money explicity changing hands.

I read an interesting book called "Gilded Prostitution" about trans-Atlantic marriages. It discusses the idea of what the word prostitution actually means.

Khannie wrote: »

I should add that it works both ways....while on holidays in Cuba before at a kind of locals bar (crackin' night out) we met a young, disgracefully handsome Cuban guy who was with a French woman in her mid-forties. We got talking to him and he was quite open about it being based on two things: 1) She was gonna get him out of Cuba and 2) She was minted (he told us that she owned hotels, plural).

Of course it works both ways. But you have to ask yourself what conditions existed to create the situation whereby that Cuban man was willing to agree to such a relationship.

Khannie wrote: »

Yeah, it's great! One of the things I like most about traveling is that it makes you question things that you've taken as being "the right way" when you see how other cultures differ from ours.

I have traveled far and wide. And lived in what are probably considered the most liberal, gender-balanced country and the most oppressive misogynistic country in the world. But I still know poverty and desperation when I see it.

CDfm

taconnol wrote: »

The degree to which these relationships are mutually beneficial is open for debate.

Foreign born spouses from outside the EU do not have an automatic right to live and work here,

Applicants are vetted by the Department of foreign Affairs and entry visas based on the relationship are granted at their discretion.

I was in kilcullen a number of years back and 2 guys were arrested for visa violation when it was intended that they get married to some local girls.There also was a marriage scam run from Athlone where Irish girls went to London for multiple marriages with non EU nationals. The goal being legal entry to the EU for them and their families. The Athlone scam came to light when a Pakistani family arrived in Dublin and tried to blag their way thru immigration.

So to say these marriages are abusive by definition any more than other marriages is harsh.

The opposite may also be true that guys who are shy or socially inept may struggle to get married to or find a local partner in Ireland. These women want a European husband and want to live here because the standard of living is higher.

So they are economic migrants in the same way an Irish woman may marry an Australian or American to move there. Now we wouldnt say that an Irish woman is making an uninformed decision so why should we assume a foreign woman is.

On an aside, have you seen the size and build of some of these Russian women - its the men that I would worry for.

Why arent Irish man entitled to happiness with a foreign woman if thats what he wants and maybe its a good thing. Who knows -as with foreign adoptions it will catch on and become the norm.

SoulTrader

pikachucheeks wrote: »

I'm not sure whether this means they take mail order brides seriously over there, or are embarrassed of it (by the reputation they've received).

No, they definitely don't take it seriously - it is a cause of real embarrassment to the majority of the Filipino population. (Fwiw I'm married to a Filipina, and it wasn't mail order - we met at work where I live, outside Ireland).

When I've gone there with her, she has heard people remark in the street things like "oh lucky lady, she really hit the jackpot", because they see her with me! Needless to say, she was furious with that. She is professionally educated and well able to provide for herself without me.

When I've been there, I have seen some couples in relationships that I suspect are arranged / mail order - men (mostly American) who are aged about 60 with a wife in her 20s. My wife's family are always embarrassed when we encounter these couples, as they think it reflects poorly on their women. Btw, my wife is 3 years older than me, just in case anyone is thinking I'm being a hypocrite here.

I remember that Alec Baldwin quote now, but I had totally forgotten about it. That was bang out of order.

Khannie

Tacconol: Without getting into a quote-fest, I don't see anything wrong with wanting a submissive partner. Emotional abuse? Hogwash. Often lead to physical abuse? Come on. Sure the same could be said of any kind of relationship involving a male and female.

If that's what you're into (a submissive partner) and you can find someone who fits those desires and they're happy to enter into a relationship with you....well then fire ahead IMO. Both parties are trying to make the best out of their lives. There are plenty of women who like submissive men (and plenty of men who like a dominant woman!) and vice versa. My wife likes that I'm a manly man and I like that she likes that. That works for us. Other things work for other people. Some of my female friends unquestionably "wear the trousers" in any relationship they enter into. The whole mail order / arranged marriage thing wouldn't be for me, but if you have two consenting adults who enter into it with their eyes open...well...let them at it IMO.

Also, for what it's worth: I don't believe that there is such thing as a relationship of equals. There will always be one out of the two who is more dominant in whatever way.

As for the Cuban lad: He was happy out!

Macha

Khannie wrote: »

Tacconol: Without getting into a quote-fest, I don't see anything wrong with wanting a submissive partner. Emotional abuse? Hogwash. Often lead to physical abuse? Come on. Sure the same could be said of any kind of relationship involving a male and female.

Of course the same can happen in any relationship between two people. But please explain to me why in research, Korean men said that they seek Filipinia brides because they "don't run away"?

I'm not so sure why you're so quick to dismiss the abuse in this type of relationship as "hogwash". The research shows that the majority of men who seek mail-order brides have very conservative ideas about gender roles (read: like it when a woman knows her place). These men are not looking for partners, they're looking for pretty house-servants.

You still haven't addressed the point I made about the circumstances of the person who is being "bought". Your example of you and your partner is somewhat irrelevant because I assume that financial incentives were not offered from one person to the other in order to enter into the relationship (unless you call buying someone dinner a financial incentive :pac:). For example in Russia (a popular market for brides), women on average earn less than half what men earn. The average daily salary in the Phillipines is $2.

Poverty combines with traditional gender values to provide a perfect one-stop-shop for wealthy men. I just think these women deserve better.

Khannie wrote: »

Also, for what it's worth: I don't believe that there is such thing as a relationship of equals. There will always be one out of the two who is more dominant in whatever way.

And that is a million miles away from a young foreign woman brought to marry a Canadian 50-year old who doesn't know another soul, has no support network and doesn't know what her rights are when he starts to physically abuse her. There are many documented cases that I can link to, if you are interested.

metrovelvet

taconnel is right. They want houseservants and nurses to take care of them when they are old and dying. They are using their western, white status to gain an indentured servant they can **** when they like. Yeah, until the wedding ring is on and then they get the real picture.

CDfm

taconnol wrote: »

Of course the same can happen in any relationship between two people. But please explain to me why in research, Korean men said that they seek Filipinia brides because they "don't run away"?

this isnt korea & filipinas that work abroad tend to save a lot of money and invest it in the philipines.

I'm not so sure why you're so quick to dismiss the abuse in this type of relationship as "hogwash". The research shows that the majority of men who seek mail-order brides have very conservative ideas about gender roles (read: like it when a woman knows her place). These men are not looking for partners, they're looking for pretty house-servants.

and this relates how to an irishman looking for a foreign wife -\I suppose the not running away above is a plus

You still haven't addressed the point I made about the circumstances of the person who is being "bought". Your example of you and your partner is somewhat irrelevant because I assume that financial incentives were not offered from one person to the other in order to enter into the relationship (unless you call buying someone dinner a financial incentive :pac:). For example in Russia (a popular market for brides), women on average earn less than half what men earn. The average daily salary in the Phillipines is $2.

Who is buying who -the farmer wants a wife and the said wife is protected under the same laws as everyone else. Interviewed by the department of foreign affairs before she comes to live here etc.

Where is the evidence that Irishmen who marry foreign wives abuse them.

There is none.

Poverty combines with traditional gender values to provide a perfect one-stop-shop for wealthy men. I just think these women deserve better.

And that is a million miles away from a young foreign woman brought to marry a Canadian 50-year old who doesn't know another soul, has no support network and doesn't know what her rights are when he starts to physically abuse her. There are many documented cases that I can link to, if you are interested

There you are with a wealthy men arguement and from what I can see its ordinary guys and that there is an advantage to them living in another country because they benefit from a better lifestyle etc.

The guys looking for foreign wives arent hugely wealthy guys -they are ordinary Joes.

corkcomp

taconnol wrote: »

The research shows that the majority of men who seek mail-order brides have very conservative ideas about gender roles (read: like it when a woman knows her place). These men are not looking for partners, they're looking for pretty house-servants.

I have to agree there. I know of three roughly similar cases and the guys in question would not be able to handle self sufficient / assertive women who would want to go out to work every day and have their own friends / life outside the home. unfortunately in one case the guy got a woman just like that and for obvious reasons it didnt work out!