Mail order Brides

CDfm

corkcomp wrote: »

I have to agree there. I know of three roughly similar cases and the guys in question would not be able to handle self sufficient / assertive women who would want to go out to work every day and have their own friends / life outside the home. unfortunately in one case the guy got a woman just like that and for obvious reasons it didnt work out!

What were the nationalities and education of these women.

I would love to know more as it seems to me that there might be just a bit more competition for Irish Guys out there and lots of baselessninformation beingb posted about the brides and grooms with nothing to back it up.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a guy marrying a foreign woman and meeting her via a foreign dating agency.If two people get happy from it then bring it on and it should be encouraged.

corkcomp

CDfm wrote: »

What were the nationalities and education of these women.

I would love to know more as it seems to me that there might be just a bit more competition for Irish Guys out there and lots of baselessninformation beingb posted about the brides and grooms with nothing to back it up.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a guy marrying a foreign woman and meeting her via a foreign dating agency.If two people get happy from it then bring it on and it should be encouraged.

im not getting into specifics here man as the friends in question would not appreciate it. two are still together, the third couple is not. neither of the two are "happy" of course there is nothing wrong with an irish guy marrying a foreign girl but the whole thing often stinks. in one case a guy only met a girl for three days before getting married, three days is not long enough to get to know somebody or fall in love and anyone who says otherwise has no clue. how can somebody decide in three days that they have met their lifelong partner?

CDfm

Well was there any abuse that you know of and were these women held against their will??

Macha

CDfm wrote: »

Well was there any abuse that you know of and were these women held against their will??

I personally know of one foreign woman who was promised everything by an Irish man. She came over here and found out it was all lies. He had told her the weather was hot here so she didn't need to bring warm clothes. He told her he lived in a large house.

When she came, she was cold, living in a wooden house that has since been knocked down through lack of planning permission, and spent all day looking after his elderly mother. He wanted a maid servant but he underestimated her personality. Only through her own sheer strength of character did she survive. I can tell you any lesser woman would not have made it. She now works seven days a week to make ends meet and hopes to return to her home country in a few years. She can't go now because social customs dictate that she can't even tell her family how bad the marriage is.

She's older, from a wealthy family and was not coerced/paid to enter into the marriage. Imagine what it would be like for a young, poor, timid woman who was a mail order bride. Unimaginable.

CDfm

But Tacconnal how does this relate to the OP about mail order brides and what to look for and what to avoid??

Macha

CDfm wrote: »

But Tacconnal how does this relate to the OP about mail order brides and what to look for and what to avoid??

I give up!

corkcomp

CDfm wrote: »

Well was there any abuse that you know of and were these women held against their will??

no and no, but as you well know there are many other forms of abuse that are more subtle, and anyway what does that have to do with the original post of what to look for and what to avoid? :P

metrovelvet

I would look into the refund/exchange/store credit policy and the find print on the customer charter.

CDfm

In some ways its like foreign adoption and some guys will give their wives a better life.

I imagine one side of it is about compatability and if the people like and respect each other and another will be about the expectations of both partners. Very much like any couple I would expect.

Herbal Deity

I don't really agree with mail order brides.

However, I really feel sorry for the men who feel they have to resort to them.

It's very easy to dismiss them as sleazy, backward, sexist or whatever, but I think that often all these guys really desire is to be with someone, but are completely lost and intimidated when it comes to even communicating with women, let alone dating one.

They just want to settle down with a woman, which isn't a huge amount to ask, but this is next to impossible to achieve for these guys by conventional routes.

A better idea IMO would be to look into something like PUA, but that'd probably be frowned upon also.

Khannie

taconnol wrote: »

Of course the same can happen in any relationship between two people. But please explain to me why in research, Korean men said that they seek Filipinia brides because they "don't run away"?

My point is that I don't see why that's a problem. They're after a certain quality and another culture has that quality, therefore they're interested in women from that culture.

You wouldn't think there's anything wrong with me finding asian women hot now would you? I don't think this is any different. There's a trait that they like about a particular group. That's it.

taconnol wrote: »

I'm not so sure why you're so quick to dismiss the abuse in this type of relationship as "hogwash". The research shows that the majority of men who seek mail-order brides have very conservative ideas about gender roles (read: like it when a woman knows her place). These men are not looking for partners, they're looking for pretty house-servants.

Again, I don't see why this is a problem once both parties are happy with it. The men are looking for women whose perception of gender roles match their own. You will find that a lot of men in cultures outside the west "like it when a woman knows her place". Not my thing, but not my culture either.

taconnol wrote: »

You still haven't addressed the point I made about the circumstances of the person who is being "bought". Your example of you and your partner is somewhat irrelevant because I assume that financial incentives were not offered from one person to the other in order to enter into the relationship (unless you call buying someone dinner a financial incentive :pac:). For example in Russia (a popular market for brides), women on average earn less than half what men earn. The average daily salary in the Phillipines is $2.

Again, I don't see where someone is being bought or see any problem. The woman is entering a relationship which is beneficial to her (the man in the relationship is able to provide her with a more comfortable life). The man is entering a relationship which is beneficial to him. Once they both enter it with their eyes open, fair play to them says I. Not for me, but let them at it.

taconnol wrote: »

Poverty combines with traditional gender values to provide a perfect one-stop-shop for wealthy men. I just think these women deserve better.

That's the thing...they're not gonna get better. Of course they deserve better, but life's not fair. They find themselves in a crappy situation and that's why they choose to enter these relationships. It's very easy for us with our nice houses, cars, LCD TV's, etc etc. Some of the conditions that people outside the west live in means that it's more than worth their while to be submissive to their partner in order to get out of the poverty trap they find themselves in. I certainly wouldn't judge them for it. The same is true of the lonely men...they're past their prime and considered unattractive in the west. You put them in another setting and presto, they're attractive.

taconnol wrote: »

And that is a million miles away from a young foreign woman brought to marry a Canadian 50-year old who doesn't know another soul, has no support network and doesn't know what her rights are when he starts to physically abuse her. There are many documented cases that I can link to, if you are interested.

There are many documented cases of physical abuse full stop. I just don't see your point. You think that physical abuse is a possibility, I would say that there's a risk of it in any relationship.

Khannie

taconnol wrote: »

<snip> story</snip>

She's older, from a wealthy family and was not coerced/paid to enter into the marriage. Imagine what it would be like for a young, poor, timid woman who was a mail order bride. Unimaginable.

Ok, that's fairly horrible. When we were discussing mail order, I didn't literally mean "mail order". I meant travel to destination country, meet up, people are happy, spend some time together, get married, yada yada.

Herbal Deity

Khannie wrote: »

Again, I don't see why this is a problem once both parties are happy with it. The men are looking for women whose perception of gender roles match their own. You will find that a lot of men in cultures outside the west "like it when a woman knows her place". Not my thing, but not my culture either.

But where do you draw the line between an innocent cultural difference and a backwards, oppressive society?

CDfm

Khannie wrote: »

Ok, that's fairly horrible. When we were discussing mail order, I didn't literally mean "mail order". I meant travel to destination country, meet up, people are happy, spend some time together, get married, yada yada.

And there is a huge difference between human trafficing and what the OP was asking -which was what to look for.

There are a lot of scams associated with it just and if an agency is used someone has to pay the dating agency.

I have always looked at this like I would have looked at British, French,Italian & German War Brides after World War II who migrated to a foreign country based on trust/love but here you have economic need too.

shellyboo

If a woman is living in a backwards, oppressive society; surely such an arrangement - one where she marries a more liberal-minded man and moves to a country where she has more rights - is beneficial?

Leaving aside cases of forced marriage, why are we assuming these women aren't aware of what they're doing? Just because they're from a different culture doesn't make them stupid, it gives them different priorities; marriage and security being among them. Who are we to dictate that it's wrong?

If I decided to marry an Arab billionaire tomorrow so I'd be financially secure forever, that's my choice.

metrovelvet

shellyboo wrote: »

If a woman is living in a backwards, oppressive society; surely such an arrangement - one where she marries a more liberal-minded man and moves to a country where she has more rights - is beneficial?

Leaving aside cases of forced marriage, why are we assuming these women aren't aware of what they're doing? Just because they're from a different culture doesn't make them stupid, it gives them different priorities; marriage and security being among them. Who are we to dictate that it's wrong?

If I decided to marry an Arab billionaire tomorrow so I'd be financially secure forever, that's my choice.

And that would make you not much different from a prostitute. And not only that, once your kids with this man turn 7, you'd have no parental rights.↲

Emme

Darith wrote: »

Anyone got advice on the above topic. I admit the the heading is a bit crude and one does not actually order brides over the internet but i think everyone gets my meaning. I want know personal experiences and any advice one could give on the above matter as i am considering it myself. Which nationalities are the best; whom are the most faithful etc

r

There are lots of girls of all nationalities in Ireland and if you got off your butt and made an effort you might meet one.

I hate the whole mail order bride thing - it works in the odd case but in most cases the women are using the guy as a ticket out of their country and the guys could easily find someone at home if they made a bit of an effort. It's one step up from trafficking. I'm not judging the girls because I grew up in a country which has a relatively good standard of living and I am free to travel to many countries with a passport and can get a visa to travel to most others. Most mail order brides don't have those privileges.

metrovelvet

I wonder how much the supply of brides would dwindle if marriage didnt bring the privalege of immigration and residency with it.

shellyboo

metrovelvet wrote: »

And that would make you not much different from a prostitute. And not only that, once your kids with this man turn 7, you'd have no parental rights.↲

It sure would. But that's my choice to make. It has some very signifucant differences from prostituion - it's not illegal, and it'd be a hell of a lot safer. As for parental rights, let's pretend I said US billionaire. More rights. Is it still wrong for me to marry for money, a better life? Who are you to tell me what the right choice is for my life just because you wouldn't do it?

It's incredibly patronising to think we somehow know better than women from another culture just because they're prepared to sacrifice love for security.

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

And that would make you not much different from a prostitute. And not only that, once your kids with this man turn 7, you'd have no parental rights.↲

and a woman who meets and marries a much younger guy she meets on a beach somewhere is .........................

shellyboo wrote: »

It sure would. But that's my choice to make. It has some very signifucant differences from prostituion - it's not illegal,

The sex would be consensual and you have a legal marriage which is recognised.

metrovelvet wrote: »

I wonder how much the supply of brides would dwindle if marriage didnt bring the privalege of immigration and residency with it.

then they would be pen pals

shellyboo

CDfm wrote: »

The sex would be consensual and you have a legal marriage which is recognised.

Sex with a prostitue is consensual too, CD Prostituition does not equal rape!

Emme

I saw the Theroux TV documentary about the Russian mail order brides. The men looking for women were all different and the girls were all different. One was young, very pretty, very intelligent and I felt sad that she had to make such a pragmatic decision so young. I hope it all worked out for her in the end.

I read an article about it in either GQ or Marie Claire (can't remember which, it was in the dentist's waiting room) where an American guy went over to Moscow to a sort of bride fair. He and other men like him were subjected to a hugely expensive translation service and a rake of girls who wanted shoes and other things bought for them.

I also know an Irish guy who is doing this and I was gobsmacked when he told me. He's good looking, successful and has a great personality but deep down lacks confidence big time. He had a wild youth and is now going through a mid-life crisis. He showed me a picture of the girl in question and she's the spit of a girl he went out with in his 20s who was Irish and pretty much the girl next door.

I told him he could have anybody he wanted here but he didn't believe me. He is a nice guy but can be a bit bossy sometimes.

I won't go into details here, but he was ripped off by the foreign dating service and from what he told me he is still being ripped off but AFAIK he's persisting with the relationship. He told me that the girl in question is seeing other guys as well as him. He also said that the people in his GF's country are very submissive. I hope she's genuine and not ripping him off because he's not a bad guy and could easily have found somebody here if he wanted.

In a way he's doing exactly the same thing as a woman who reaches a certain age and decides to "settle" for a guy she doesn't really like because she wants to be in a relationship. The only difference is that if men decide to "settle" they can choose somebody young and pretty from a poor country who is happy to marry a guy she doesn't know so that she can improve her life.

CDfm

So its not really unethical to marry someone from abroad that you meet via a dating agency but even when you are looking you need to be aware that you can be scammed.

Emme

CDfm wrote: »

So its not really unethical to marry someone from abroad that you meet via a dating agency but even when you are looking you need to be aware that you can be scammed.

Exactly. This is why it might be a good idea to give women in Ireland (not necessarily Irish women) a chance before going to russiandollsonline or bedofjasminericedotcom. You might be pleasantly surprised by what's available at home, all you have to do is look.

Khannie

Herbal Deity wrote: »

But where do you draw the line between an innocent cultural difference and a backwards, oppressive society?

I don't. There are no innocent cultural differences IMO. Only cultural differences. Plenty of people consider the Irish culture backwards and oppressive. I heard some American girls in town recently refer to Irish men as "potato farmers" (not a joke).

Emme

Khannie wrote: »

I heard some American girls in town recently refer to Irish men as "potato farmers" (not a joke).

They won't be looking for Irish mail order husbands then

BumbleB

Khannie wrote: »

II heard some American girls in town recently refer to Irish men as "potato farmers" (not a joke).

Khannie , i come originally from the states and talk to with a lot of American girls and that not the overall view really. If you find a good russian girl they really are nice .

metrovelvet

shellyboo wrote: »

It sure would. But that's my choice to make. It has some very signifucant differences from prostituion - it's not illegal, and it'd be a hell of a lot safer. As for parental rights, let's pretend I said US billionaire. More rights. Is it still wrong for me to marry for money, a better life? Who are you to tell me what the right choice is for my life just because you wouldn't do it?

It's incredibly patronising to think we somehow know better than women from another culture just because they're prepared to sacrifice love for security.

Right or wrong it's pretty stupid. For one, you don't know that you'll have access to that money. You might be given some pocket money or maybe none. Secondly, you have no idea if your husband or husband to be is going to help you get a green card, it might suit him to keep you illegal. Its not like marriage guarantees citizenship anymore. And then what if he divorces you? You'd be way too much under someone's thumb.

CDfm

Cant help thinking about Iris Robinson and her toyboy lover and how she used her influence and power and money and how he is now in the spotlight.

When women do it its a toyboy but when guys do it -its slavery and trafficking.

Pretty much a double standard donncha think?

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Right or wrong it's pretty stupid. For one, you don't know that you'll have access to that money. You might be given some pocket money or maybe none. Secondly, you have no idea if your husband or husband to be is going to help you get a green card, it might suit him to keep you illegal. Its not like marriage guarantees citizenship anymore. And then what if he divorces you? You'd be way too much under someone's thumb.

Just say he gives her all those things (and shelly being such a lovely person he would find it hard to resist) is it still wrong for her to marry for a better life?