6.5x55 lapua scenar 108gr for foxes?

sako75 hunter

Hey guys, just looking for yer advise on shooting foxes with lapua scenar 108gr. I know they were designed for target shooting but i cant seem to get a light factory load for the 6.5 that i could use for fox shooting. Last year i went to a local gun dealer(not going to mention who) and he told me that 100gr fmj would be ok to shoot foxes with. I was kinda surprised at what he said but i took a box anyway. Im not an expert or anything like that but i tought full metal jacket rounds were designed not to expand but to pierce metal.(are they used for sillouette). I no the 108gr scenar are hollow point so i am thinking they would be suitable for foxes, wouldnt they? Forgive me if i am talking jibberish but any help would be greatly appreicated.

It wasn't me!

sako75 hunter wrote: »

Hey guys, just looking for yer advise on shooting foxes with lapua scenar 108gr. I know they were designed for target shooting but i cant seem to get a light factory load for the 6.5 that i could use for fox shooting. Last year i went to a local gun dealer(not going to mention who) and he told me that 100gr fmj would be ok to shoot foxes with. I was kinda surprised at what he said but i took a box anyway. Im not an expert or anything like that but i tought full metal jacket rounds were designed not to expand but to pierce metal.(are they used for sillouette). Forgive me if i am talking jibberish but any help would be greatly appreicated.

Yeah, wouldn't use FMJ on live quarry at all. I know guys in the states like it for preserving hides, but I think any animal deserves more respect than that. Your 6.5x55 just won't dump any energy in the animal but go clean through and bury its energy in the backstop. The Scenar is a hollow point, but until I documented evidence of some serious expansion, I wouldn't use them personally. There's a 120gr ballistic tip load for the round that'd be my first port of call for the foxing, but it's very expensive. That said, it's worth it not to screw up a humane kill.

johngalway

No, no & no @ FMJ's and foxes. Downright irresponsible for that GD to suggest them.

sako75 hunter

i know the 120grain norma ballistic tip would be more suitable for the job but i honestly cant afford them. I think they are about 45 euro a box which is more than i can afford.

It wasn't me!

sako75 hunter wrote: »

i know the 120grain norma ballistic tip would be more suitable for the job but i honestly cant afford them. I think they are about 45 euro a box which is more than i can afford.

I think you may owe it to the quarry to splash out on this occasion. It's not so much more expensive than what you're using anyway I'm sure that it doesn't justify it. If you're using any of the Federal Premium stuff, it'll be the same price.

sako75 hunter

im getting my federal 140gr fusion 27euro a box and to be honest i have been to a few dealers asking them to see if they could get me in a box or two of the 120grain normas but there saying it wouldnt be worth it for them to just get in a couple of boxes. I am based in tipp south, do you no of any dealers that might have them in stock?

It wasn't me!

sako75 hunter wrote: »

im getting my federal 140gr fusion 27euro a box and to be honest i have been to a few dealers asking them to see if they could get me in a box or two of the 120grain normas but there saying it wouldnt be worth it for them to just get in a couple of boxes. I am based in tipp south, do you no of any dealers that might have them in stock?

I'm only supposing, but try give John Lambert in Camolin a shout. He's got a great stock and I'd think he's your best bet.

sixpointfive

Why not just use your 27euro federal fusions on foxes? tbh the 120gr normas are the only bullet to use in a 6.5 in my opinion but if you not prepared to go the money for them then stick to fusions

ianoo

sako75 hunter wrote: »

im getting my federal 140gr fusion 27euro a box and to be honest i have been to a few dealers asking them to see if they could get me in a box or two of the 120grain normas but there saying it wouldnt be worth it for them to just get in a couple of boxes. I am based in tipp south, do you no of any dealers that might have them in stock?

i got box' of norma 120 grain ballistic tip from paul o halloran in drangan about 6months ago ,give him a shout i'd say he still has some with the price of them 45 euro a box

ian

buckasssailor

is a 6.5x55 not over kill on a fox cause a guy uses that caliber to shoot deer on our land

It wasn't me!

buckasssailor wrote: »

is a 6.5x55 not over kill on a fox cause a guy uses that caliber to shoot deer on our land

It's not designed for the job, but with proper bullets will do okay. After all, can't kill something too dead.

sako75 hunter

i no what your saying 6.5, ive shot foxes with the fusions but my question is are 108 grain scenar suitable for shooting foxes? Have you any experience with this load? Im not trying to be snoty with you but im just trying to find suitable ammo for my 6.5x55 for foxes. Have you used anything other than the 120gr norma bp? Thanks for your input.

Cass

sako75 hunter wrote: »

i no what your saying 6.5, ive shot foxes with the fusions but my question is are 108 grain scenar suitable for shooting foxes? ........

Just a quick point. I shoot 139gr Scenar for target work. I used to use the 6.5 for hunting also. As a test i put up a sleeper at 100yds (approx) in an abandoned quarry near where i shoot. Its great as the sides are 60 mtrs straight up. Plenty of sand so no ricochets. Set up the rifle and fired. Passed straight through the sleeper, so any aspirations i may have had about using the Scenar for hunting died a swift death.

I tried every brand of bullet but the rifle liked none of them. The Fusion were the only ones that ran somewhat consistantly through it but thats the rifle not the round.

But i really wouldn't comsider the Scenar for hunting especially foxes. The bullet travels flat and fast and a fox would offer little to no resistance for the round.

sako75 hunter

Thanks ezridax thats exactly what i wanted to know. Wont be using them for foxes then. So do you think i should stick with the 140gr fusions for foxes? I know 120gr bp would be more of a fox round but surely that cant be the only round available for the 6.5 for foxes?

kakashka

Hey sako75,from my experience of Lapua scenar (top class target rounds)they are not much cheaper if any than the norma's anyway,dont think that much of the fusions myself but for fox i wouldnt have a problem using them unless they were inaccurate in your gun,i guess whichever is most suitable for your gun,6.5 is a fantastic consistant,accurate round

Cass

sako75 hunter wrote: »

........ So do you think i should stick with the 140gr fusions for foxes? I know 120gr bp would be more of a fox round but surely that cant be the only round available for the 6.5 for foxes?

There are other rounds but alot are 108gr upwards. Norma do the 120 and 140gr, Lapua do a hunting round "Naturalis" in 150gr ( i think) but its as expensive as the Norma (€50 per 20). The other rounds are Remington (core-lokt) which the gun didn't like and the Hornady which it hated. No group of any sort. Federal which was good enough but it was the Fusion (cheapest round) that worked the best. 140gr. 2500fps muzzle velocity and good to 200yds. It can fire further obviously, but after 250yds the velocity drops pretty quick as does your point of impact. It carries about 2000ft/lb at the muzzle and 1500ft/lb energy at 200 yds which is enough to drop a fox but not travel through.

Stick with what works. As long as its B/Tip, soft nose, pointed soft, etc that mushrooms the round and breaks on impact you're fine.

BryanL

I don't see how you can make a 6.5mm hole in a foxes head/heart lung area without killing it quickly?
Bryan

kakashka

6.5 Will bowl any fox over.use whatever accurate hunting round you like

johngalway

BryanL wrote: »

I don't see how you can make a 6.5mm hole in a foxes head/heart lung area without killing it quickly?
Bryan

Since I don't shoot that cal my guess would be over penetration and expansion taking place farther along than say a 40grain Vmax. Seen this on other websites, where it'll definitely kill the fox but he runs on that bit farther as the violent expansion wasn't there immediately.

Cass

johngalway wrote: »

......my guess would be over penetration and expansion taking place farther along than say a 40grain Vmax.........., where it'll definitely kill the fox but he runs on that bit farther as the violent expansion wasn't there immediately.

Correct. Accuracy and killing power. No point having one without the other. Both are needed.

thelurcher

I've used a few boxes of the 108gr lapua scenar with the 6.5 but on targets only - one of the best rounds I've ever used accuracy wise for the T3.
I've switched to the 120gr norma ballistic tips (from the Federal 140gr) for the last year and would never go back to anything else for deer.

If you want to be guaranteed of a humane kill on fox then get a terrier.

sako75 hunter

So 120gr bp are the way to go. I just taught that maybe there would be more of a variety of rounds other than the 120 bp that would be more suited for foxes. I didnt intend to shoot foxes with the 6.5 when i purchased it first but i hate leaving it in the safe for 6months of the year. I no i could trade it in for maybe a .243 that would have a better variety of loads for foxes and deer but the sako 75 hunter 6.5x55 is such a sweet gun and ive never lost or had to track up a deer after stricking it with a 140 gr federal fusion or powershok bullet. Ill give o halloran a ring in the morning to see if he has any 120 gr bp in stock. Is it just norma that load these for the 6.5 or is there any other available? Thanks lads.

Remmy

placement is key.Just pick a round that is consistent and accurate and you wont have any problems.

poulo6.5

sako75 hunter wrote: »

im getting my federal 140gr fusion 27euro a box and to be honest i have been to a few dealers asking them to see if they could get me in a box or two of the 120grain normas but there saying it wouldnt be worth it for them to just get in a couple of boxes. I am based in tipp south, do you no of any dealers that might have them in stock?

hi sako75. i'm in tip south and i get my norma 120 gr from paul halleron in drangon . its a very good round and well worth the money, i killed many a fox with them and never had a twitch out of one of them, also a very good round on deer which is what i use it for , my new .223 has taken over fox duty.

ps. norma 120gr are E40 for box of 20

thelurcher

sako75 hunter wrote: »

I didnt intend to shoot foxes with the 6.5 when i purchased it first but i hate leaving it in the safe for 6months of the year.

Have the same respect for all your quarry in fairness - keep it in the safe late spring and the summer.
Nothing worse than **** shooting vixens with cubs - do the job right during the winter.

johngalway

thelurcher wrote: »

Have the same respect for all your quarry in fairness - keep it in the safe late spring and the summer.
Nothing worse than **** shooting vixens with cubs - do the job right during the winter.

No need for the name calling. I've shot plenty of vixens who've had cubs or were in cub. Lambing time here comes right when foxes are having cubs or a few weeks after.

sako75 hunter

thelurcher wrote: »

Have the same respect for all your quarry in fairness - keep it in the safe late spring and the summer.
Nothing worse than **** shooting vixens with cubs - do the job right during the winter.

I no what your saying lurcher but what would you do if you got a call from a farmer saying that he is loosing lambs to foxes? The same farmer that has given you full permission to shoot phesant, rabbits and deer on his 300 acres of land. Would you tell him sorry farmer but i dont shoot foxes in the spring! Could you imagine what the look on his face would be??? I can tell you one thing for sure, i would be down 300 acres of land....

Pkiernan

An animal the size of a fox does not need to be hunted with expanding projectiles in the calibre the OP is using/

If you hit it properly, that round will drop them stone dead.

That round should have an approx muzzle velocity of 2000 fps with about 2000 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards! The fox will be obliterated.

There would ne nothing inhumane in shooting a fox with this round (provided you hit it in the chest or head).

There is nothing inherently cruel in shooting solid projectiles at our quarry, assuming the calibre is up to the job. All of the wild boar I have shot have been with killed quicky with solids. When hunting pigs with a handgun, you are advised to use solids to ensure adequate penetration.

I know there is a difference between solids and FMJ's but in the case of the fox, he will not register any.

thelurcher

As I've said before on here - there's a very humane alternative - dig them out with a terrier - plenty of lads around will oblige. If the farmer's worth his salt he'll know full well where the earth is. So I'll stand by my 'name calling' on this one.

sako75 hunter - to quote your own words again

i hate leaving it in the safe for 6months of the year.

- If you said you've changed your mind and now intend to shoot foxes because you're under pressure from the land owner - that would be another story - but that's not the truth now is it - hence my reply.

I'm not against shooting foxes when the time is right - I just see no sport in it. But shooting any animal when you know there's a very good chance you're leaving cubs to die is way out of order.
Amazes me how the Harriers and Foxhounds get such bad press when the shooting community carries on like this - could be the rock we'll all end up perishing on...........
Don't give ammo to the antis - keep the summer fox shooting off line.

johngalway

Typical, me feiner. It's not all sport as you well know. Well for you that you don't have to rely on protecting stock for you living. Pull your head out the sand good man.

murph226

thelurcher wrote: »

As I've said before on here - there's a very humane alternative - dig them out with a terrier - plenty of lads around will oblige. If the farmer's worth his salt he'll know full well where the earth is. So I'll stand by my 'name calling' on this one.

Not all lads have that option!

sako75 hunter

Lurcher, i never said ive changed my mind about shooting foxes, what i did say was that i didnt intend buying the 6.5 for foxes, i got it for deer. Now that i have it i will use it to shoot foxes with the right load. And if you think that digging foxes is "respecting your quarry" i would love to see how you do it your part of the country!!!

ejg

Overall expanding bullets will ensure a quicker death to fox. Talking about bullet placement is of no help when the bullet strikes one or more inches next to the perfect spot, a quick expanding bullet can inflict a wide wound channel and save the day.
Take a 22cal varmint bullet at over 3000fps, these rounds fragment into small bits and shed the complete energy, often not exiting.
So a 223 can leave around 1000flbs and a 22-250/swift even more energy in the fox. Non expanding 6.5 bullet shot side on will take most of its energy into the backstop. It will kill, but not as effectively.

edi

Cass

Pkiernan wrote: »

An animal the size of a fox does not need to be hunted with expanding projectiles in the calibre the OP is using/

If you hit it properly, that round will drop them stone dead..

The expanding projectiles are not only for humane kills because as you said a well placed shot will drop them dead. The problem is in 6.5X55 caliber one of the smallest rounds i've seen is the 100gr training rounds. Not suitable for hunting, but the smallest size to be got. All other hunting rounds are upwards of 109gr and as a fox's torso would provide little to no resistance for a fast and powerful round such as the 6.5x55 then you need a round that will break up rather than pass straight through the animal. Its a safety thought.

ejg

Just to get back to the shot placement thing.
This was one of the better targets shot at a comp up at the midlands range. Shot at 100yds and less.
I guess 50% of these strikes are not great. This was in broad daylight.
We have to be more realistic. Not all shots will hit perfect.
edi

jwshooter

how many foxes are you hoping to shoot is you dont want to use 120 norma ballistic tips on them.

johngalway

Ejg, the voice of sense and reason

BryanL

sako75 hunter wrote: »

if you think that digging foxes is "respecting your quarry" i would love to see how you do it your part of the country!!!

Whats being said is that foxes with cubs to ground are better dealt with by digging and dealing with the vixen and litter. Rather than shooting the vixen and leaving cubs to starve to death.
Foxes are dug with a single terrier and shot, usually takes 10-15 minutes.
Foxes have been pairing for a few weeks and it's a good time to deal with the. If you watch this board you'll see guys shoting foxes into April and starting again in May. Fox shooting is a fair weather sport to them.
Bryan

johngalway

BryanL wrote: »

If you watch this board you'll see guys shoting foxes into April and starting again in May. Fox shooting is a fair weather sport to them.
Bryan

The farms around here don't start lambing until late March. Most will lamb during April, with some finishing in May. Throughout May there are a hell of a lot of young vulnerable lambs still on the ground that need protecting. Come and see if you don't believe what I'm typing here. It's no sport to people like me, it's fox control. I've been out several times during this cold spell, been out on pure stormy nights last Spring also and countless other rotten dirty nights.

thelurcher

sako75 hunter wrote: »

Lurcher, i never said ive changed my mind about shooting foxes, what i did say was that i didnt intend buying the 6.5 for foxes, i got it for deer. Now that i have it i will use it to shoot foxes with the right load. And if you think that digging foxes is "respecting your quarry" i would love to see how you do it your part of the country!!!

Couldn't be bothered getting into a tit for tat wit you so here's is my final word on this -
Surely you can see my point that it's hardly good PR for shooting to be writing for all to see about shooting vixens with cubs - this forum is without a doubt being monitored by various groups and organizations intent on destroying hunting and shooting.
As Johngalway correctly points out - it's not all sport - so what compels people here to tell the world that they shot or are going to shoot foxes at a time when you're likely to leave dependent cubs behind

Again I have no real problem with shooting foxes at other times.

This is just an observation and I'm not implying you're in this catagory sako75 - but most of the fellas I meet that are spouting the aul argument about 'the farmer needs the lambs protected' could not name one farmer in the county let alone the parish.
We all know the type board out of their minds with unfortunately no work - their first and only gun - with less than a years experience behind them - and little or no understanding of country life - FFS why can't they shoot a few targets rather than leaving the gun in the safe for 6 months - and leave the problem foxes to the farmers.

sako75 hunter

Thats fair enough lurcher, we could go on and on about this for ever. Your point is taken, i hope mine is to. Just to make a point for my own sake, i live in the country, i grew up in the country, ive been hunting-shooting since i was 10 and ive also relied on farmers permission to let me hunt and shoot there land and i think that if a farmer has a problem with foxes or greycrows,rooks,magpies or whatever i think its only fair i lend him a hand to solve it.

bunny shooter

Having read this thread ..........................

I don't shoot foxes while they are rearing cubs UNLESS requested by a sheep farmer who's having trouble and then I take out the fox causing the trouble

Scenar 108 & 139 for the 6.5 x 55 are Full Metal jacket (FMJ) rounds and these are NOT designed for hunting as the will not generally expand properly on impact and could and will go straight through a fox. FMJ's are available for .223 also and are generally cheaper than other ammo and as a result lads are using them for hunting. THIS IS NOT A GOOD IDEA !

I don't agree with digging out foxes at any time or for any reason but it is not illegal and each to their own as long as it's legal in my opinion.

Sheep farmers and poulty farmers need to control foxes more so than others and they cannot be blamed for protecting their incomes & investment in stock not matter what time of year, weather or breeding season.

johngalway

ejg wrote: »

Just to get back to the shot placement thing.
This was one of the better targets shot at a comp up at the midlands range. Shot at 100yds and less.
I guess 50% of these strikes are not great. This was in broad daylight.
We have to be more realistic. Not all shots will hit perfect.
edi

That fox bothers me, rather the holes in it at that range, what was the set up for shooting? Could people take their time or was there pressure on?

It wasn't me!

I have to say, that 10-ring looks to be what, about 4 inches? That should be easily doable, consistently, at 100 yards standing, let alone prone, with a little practice. I know a lot of people will never shoot foxes standing and so don't practise for it, but I think it's important that people have the technical proficiency to pull off shots they'd never try on live game, and should certainly be able to shoot adequately in all positions.

johngalway

Were they taken standing? It was probably on the thread before but I forget.

bunny shooter

JG that was a target from one of the "fox shoots" at Midlands I reckon.

Can the poster remember format as the format changed on the shoots ?

Was either rested eg bipod or unrested depending on shoot

It wasn't me!

johngalway wrote: »

Were they taken standing? It was probably on the thread before but I forget.

As far as I recall, that was standing with a .308 but at forty yards, wasn't that it? That looks relatively handy. Certainly decent shooting, but holding the ten should be easily doable.

ejg

As far as I remember it was 40m free hand, no sling and no shooting sticks. Then 60m kneeling no sling no sticks. Last 100m prone on elbows.
The only fox shoot I ever went to. Many other targets where much worse.
I took a picture of this because of the not patched shots, fired by Johnathan Murphy (270win) who came second, I think.
I presume some would not fire at a fox with so little rifle rest, but many would. There were around 30 lads that drove quite a distance and payed money to take part at this. Certainly not the worst shots took part.

edi

johngalway

No, I was just wondering if they were prone, then I'd have been :eek: Am a crap standing shot myself so I don't do it unless I'm sure, which isn't often.

It wasn't me!

Have had a look for the OP. Norma do a 100gr hollow-point as part of their practice ammo series, so it should be a good bit cheaper. Hope that's helpful. You'll almost definitely need to order it in, but there you go.

sako75 hunter

Thanks for that paulo6.5, i gave a call into paul o halloran today. Got a box of the 120gr normas for 42euro. Good price because i phoned a few dealers before i went down to paul and he came up with the better price. So of to zero in the rifle for the new ammo tomorrow and see how good they are in my gun. Just curious paulo, when you use the 120 normas for deer do you neck shoot the animal?