Islam, inter-faith marriage & raising kids

Mark Hamill

Zaynzma wrote: »

Can I just get this clear? You are saying that if someone claims to believe in 'God's laws' but actually lives a life in opposition to those laws - eg a Muslim alcoholic or a Christian who 'lives in sin' - they don't really wholeheartedly believe? They are not "true believers"?

Because this seems to get right to the heart of the OP's dilemma.

They are not true believers of those laws, thats my point. If dont really believe in those enough to follow them, then why would they claim to?

Zaynzma wrote: »

It's like you're telling him: If you marry this woman you are not a proper Muslim, because if you "wholeheartedly" believed then you wouldn't be disobeying God.

In essence yes, but i would add that he would not be a muslim according to a definition of muslim that states no muslim man can marry a non-muslim woman. He can, of course, just say that its not his definition of muslim though.

Mark Hamill

Zaynzma wrote: »

Of course they do! That's what BELIEFS are! not something you think is a possibility, with an equal chance of being right as any other set of beliefs. They (we) BELIEVE that the purpose of life is to worship God and live in accordance to His laws, and that not to do so will have serious consequences that may last an eternity. How can I tell my children otherwise, when that is what I absolutely believe? I would be lying to them if I told them it doesn't matter at all, they can choose whatever religion they like, or none.

Telling someone that you recognise the fallibility of your own beliefs while at the same time fully believing them is a perfectly acceptable position.
I can tell a child that while I cant know for sure that there is no god I still dont believe there is. This is completely different to telling a child there is no god. You are not telling you child your believe that god exists and what he wants us to do. You are telling your child that god exists and what he wants us to do because you believe it, its a different situation.

Zaynzma wrote: »

As I said before, they will make their own decision anyway. I can't compel them to accept my beliefs.

By bringing them up as a certain religion you are compelling them to accept a certain belief. Its like bringing up a child to follow a certain football team, they may rebel against their upbringing, but its an uphill struggle for them.

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

In essence yes, but i would add that he would not be a muslim according to a definition of muslim that states no muslim man can marry a non-muslim woman. He can, of course, just say that its not his definition of muslim though.

The definition of a Muslim is not whether or not they obey every law but whether they believe that those are God's laws.

It is about belief more than practice.

That's why I accept that your girlfriend is indeed my sister in Islam, even though we both know that having a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship is not acceptable in Islam.

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Telling someone that you recognise the fallibility of your own beliefs while at the same time fully believing them is a perfectly acceptable position.
I can tell a child that while I cant know for sure that there is no god I still dont believe there is. This is completely different to telling a child there is no god. You are not telling you child your believe that god exists and what he wants us to do. You are telling your child that god exists and what he wants us to do because you believe it, its a different situation.


By bringing them up as a certain religion you are compelling them to accept a certain belief. Its like bringing up a child to follow a certain football team, they may rebel against their upbringing, but its an uphill struggle for them.

You would tell a child that you don't know for sure that there is no God - fine. I could not possibly tell a child that I don't know for sure there is a God - I know for sure. I know. For sure.

If I thought I might be wrong then I wouldn't be a Muslim would I?

(I already know that athiests hate that kind of certainty in religious people, so you don't have tell me. This thread is about bringing up children and what we share with them about our beliefs).

philologos

dlofnep wrote: »

There is a difference between education, and indoctrination. I believe the point that Mark is trying to make is that by telling a child what faith they belong to, prior to them coming on an age where they can even begin to understand it is indoctrination.

That isn't even what I have mentioned on this thread. Parents have the absolute right to teach children about their values and beliefs.

dlofnep wrote: »

By bringing up a child as a Christian, or a Muslim, or any other faith - you have already decided for that child what they are, and have not afforded them the free will to think for themselves.

How does telling a child about what you believe discourage them from thinking for themselves? N.B Remember this is different from what you say earlier.

The rest of your post goes on the same tangent. I'm in agreement with the Muslims on this one. Atheists share their values with their children just as much as Christians or Muslims do. Guilt tripping parents of faith from doing this is just plain wrong from my position.

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

By bringing them up as a certain religion you are compelling them to accept a certain belief. Its like bringing up a child to follow a certain football team, they may rebel against their upbringing, but its an uphill struggle for them.

I disagree. Nobody can be compelled to accept a belief. If it makes sense to them they will believe it. People often have beliefs which are different from their parents. I think often children are influenced much more by their peers and by the society in which they grow up than their parents, more and more as they get older.

doctoremma

I've been folllowing this so forgive me for jumping in here but it's getting really interesting!

As far as I can see, you would tell your child "god exists" as a statement of fact, on parity with "light through a prism splits into colours", yes? So how can this be construed as teaching your child about your beliefs? You are in no way indicating to your child that there are alternative viewpoints. You are in no way giving them an opportunity to examine whether or not they think the statement is true or not. And this seems completely at odds with the following pacifier:

Zaynzma wrote: »

Nobody can be compelled to accept a belief.

Well, they can if they don't understand that it's a belief.

Zaynzma

Again, I think there is a wide gulf here between the believers and the unbelievers, if I can put it like that, and we are not understanding each other. I don't feel we have the same definition of 'belief' for a start. Apparently athiests want us to accept that our beliefs are just a range of alternative options which should be put in front of a child.

My belief in God is like my belief that night follows day. There are no acceptable 'alternative beliefs'. God created me. God created the universe and everything in it. There is a Day of Reckoning to come when we will have to make an account for ourselves before Him. If you accept that as a given (and I do) then naturally you are not going to want your children to be misinformed about it.

Would it make it easier if, instead of saying that I will share my beliefs with my children, I say:

"I will teach my children the Ultimate Truth and hope they will come to accept it, although I accept that I cannot compel them to do so."

Just to clarify (I hope!!!! apparently I am rubbish at explaining what I mean) when I said no-one can be compelled to accept a belief, I meant that no-one can be compelled to believe in a particular religion, or indeed in God. Just because I educate my children in my faith and present it to them as an absolute truth, doesn't mean they will automatically become believers! Or I would still be a catholic and there wouldn't be half as many athiests in the country either.

Belief in God is something everyone has to experience for themselves. I can't shoehorn it into anyone, not my children or anyone else.

Mark Hamill

Zaynzma wrote: »

The definition of a Muslim is not whether or not they obey every law but whether they believe that those are God's laws.

It is about belief more than practice.

You are telling me that if someone truely believed an all powerful, all knowing god would send you to hell for breaking a law you wholeheartidly believe in, they would still break it? Either that person doesn't really believe they will get sent to hell (and therefore doesnt really believe in the law) or they dont really comprehend hell (which is part of the problem in not really comprehending god).

Zaynzma wrote: »

That's why I accept that your girlfriend is indeed my sister in Islam, even though we both know that having a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship is not acceptable in Islam.

Not acceptable according to your interpretation of Islam.

Mark Hamill

Zaynzma wrote: »

You would tell a child that you don't know for sure that there is no God - fine. I could not possibly tell a child that I don't know for sure there is a God - I know for sure. I know. For sure.

The only way for you to know for sure that there is a god is if you where god yourself. There is no way for you to know that anything you have experienced that informs your belief in god wasn't caused by something else that simply looks like god to your human mind.

Zaynzma wrote: »

If I thought I might be wrong then I wouldn't be a Muslim would I?

Its not about thinking you could be wrong. I dont think I'm wrong, but I recognise the possibility that through my own human fallibility that I could be wrong.

Zaynzma wrote: »

(I already know that athiests hate that kind of certainty in religious people, so you don't have tell me. This thread is about bringing up children and what we share with them about our beliefs).

And my point is that if you raise your kids using this level of unfounded certainty, then you are biasing their development. You dont tell your kids about your belief that god exists, you tell them you know for sure that god exists. And if you start telling a kid from the age of four or five this, all the way to adulthood, do you think they are likely to question it? You yourself recognise that there are many muslims who are muslim more for being raised in muslim countries rather than truely examining and being convinced of the truth of it. Where do you think this comes from?

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You are telling me that if someone truely believed an all powerful, all knowing god would send you to hell for breaking a law you wholeheartidly believe in, they would still break it? Either that person doesn't really believe they will get sent to hell (and therefore doesnt really believe in the law) or they dont really comprehend hell (which is part of the problem in not really comprehending god).


Not acceptable according to your interpretation of Islam.

If a person (for example) having a sexual relationship outside marriage told me they believed they were breaking God's law by doing so but intended to continue to do so, then I would not presume to tell them "you don't really believe you're breaking God's law".

That seems the height of arrogance to me.

And (sorry I can't get the hang of the multiple quote thing) no, not according to my interpretation of Islam - according to the quran.

Mark Hamill

Jakkass wrote: »

That isn't even what I have mentioned on this thread. Parents have the absolute right to teach children about their values and beliefs.

No is saying they shouldn't. Indoctrination is not teaching your kids about beliefs and values. Indoctrination is telling your kids that these beliefs are facts, even though you cant possibly know they are facts.

Jakkass wrote: »

How does telling a child about what you believe discourage them from thinking for themselves? N.B Remember this is different from what you say earlier.

It doesnt, as long you tell them that this is your belief, that there are others and that its ultimately the childs responsibility to figure out what beliefs they should hold to. Raising a child as a certain religion doesnt do this, it tells the child from a young age what to believe, its made the choice of what religion the child should be convinced of and set them on the path before they have even learned the maths times tables.

Jakkass wrote: »

The rest of your post goes on the same tangent. I'm in agreement with the Muslims on this one. Atheists share their values with their children just as much as Christians or Muslims do. Guilt tripping parents of faith from doing this is just plain wrong from my position.

And no one is saying that atheists should indoctrinate their kids either (tell them, in no uncertain terms, that god doesnt exist).

Mark Hamill

Zaynzma wrote: »

I disagree. Nobody can be compelled to accept a belief. If it makes sense to them they will believe it. People often have beliefs which are different from their parents. I think often children are influenced much more by their peers and by the society in which they grow up than their parents, more and more as they get older.

I'm beginning to think you dont really have kids, if you think you cant compel a child to have a belief.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt, though, and assume you are mistaking the attempted compelling of adult to believe something, and the attempted compelling of a child.
The compelling of an adult is nearly impossible to do, adults already have beliefs that would have to be contradicted in order to be compelled to believe something else, they would (usually) need evidence and reasoning to be truely convinced to believe something besides what they already believe.
Children on the other hand, start off with little to no beliefs. They are essentially a blank slate, preprogrammed to unquestioningly believe figures of authority (first parents, then teachers). They may rebel at what they are told, do something bad, but it wont be because they dont believe that its bad. Children dont use philosophical arguments, claim that good and bad are subjective in order to avoid punishment, they try to hide their crimes and deny any wrong doing because they know they have done wrong. But if you ask them why it is wrong, they will tell you its because they where told it was wrong, they where told not to do it.

old_aussie

If you marry a non-muslim, your family and muslim friends will probably alienate you. They will be "shamed" by your actions.

There might even be a retribution by the muslim church against you and your family....that's a worry

You might have to leave the muslim faith to make the marrige liveable and workable.....there is no being half/part Islam devote, your either in or out.

You have some soul searching to do

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I'm beginning to think you dont really have kids, if you think you cant compel a child to have a belief.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt, though, and assume you are mistaking the attempted compelling of adult to believe something, and the attempted compelling of a child.
The compelling of an adult is nearly impossible to do, adults already have beliefs that would have to be contradicted in order to be compelled to believe something else, they would (usually) need evidence and reasoning to be truely convinced to believe something besides what they already believe.
Children on the other hand, start off with little to no beliefs. They are essentially a blank slate, preprogrammed to unquestioningly believe figures of authority (first parents, then teachers). They may rebel at what they are told, do something bad, but it wont be because they dont believe that its bad. Children dont use philosophical arguments, claim that good and bad are subjective in order to avoid punishment, they try to hide their crimes and deny any wrong doing because they know they have done wrong. But if you ask them why it is wrong, they will tell you its because they where told it was wrong, they where told not to do it.

Mark I have 3 kids. Have you got any?

doctoremma

Zaynzma wrote: »

I don't feel we have the same definition of 'belief' for a start.

Maybe. I don't consider a religious view (of any kind, including atheism) to be a universal truth. I believe that my position is as close to the truth as I can judge, you believe yours is. The difference may be (and I think Mark has mentioned it) that I recognise the fallibility of my position and I would never present it as absolute fact. I simply don't know for certain.

If my child were to ask me "Who is is this god person I heard someone talking about?", I would say "Some people believe...x/y/z". The followup "And do you believe that?" would elicit a "No" from me. Why can't religious parents do the same, but with a "Yes, I do believe that".

[/quote]Apparently athiests want us to accept that our beliefs are just a range of alternative options which should be put in front of a child.[/quote]

I'm unconvinced that this idea would be limited to atheists. I reckon if you fill a room with Muslims, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, Scientologists etc, they'd all want the others to recognise the range of beliefs.

Zaynzma wrote: »

My belief in God is like my belief that night follows day.

I don't believe that night follows day. In so far as I (currently) trust my judgement, the undeniable evidence before me and a working knowledge of planetary motion, I do not need to believe that "night follows day". For me, it is a statement of fact, and would be unalterable in the face of an opposing belief.

Zaynzma wrote: »

There are no acceptable 'alternative beliefs'. God created me. God created the universe and everything in it. There is a Day of Reckoning to come when we will have to make an account for ourselves before Him. If you accept that as a given (and I do) then naturally you are not going to want your children to be misinformed about it.

That's quite interesting. I think that almost all religions subscribe to the ideas you have laid out above. And if indeed this is the case, why is the OP facing a dilemma about what to teach his children? Why not teach them these prinicples of faith and leave the "religion" label open? (Although my ultimate position would be "don't teach your kids anything like this )

Zaynzma wrote: »

I meant that no-one can be compelled to believe in a particular religion

Some religions advocate particularly harsh punishments for those who turn away. I am not making a cheap dig and I don't know how you feel about apostasy but it seems (to this observer) a fairly constant law of Islam, no? I suspect as a convert that you may be slightly more liberal? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Mark Hamill

Zaynzma wrote: »

Again, I think there is a wide gulf here between the believers and the unbelievers, if I can put it like that, and we are not understanding each other. I don't feel we have the same definition of 'belief' for a start. Apparently athiests want us to accept that our beliefs are just a range of alternative options which should be put in front of a child.

From wikipedia: Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.
I (and I'm sure the other atheist here aswell) understand that you believe that god exists and if you told you kids that you believe that god exists, then there would be little problem. However you are not telling them that. You are telling them that god exists (fact). You may point out other religions to your kids, but its these that are presented as beliefs to them, your belief is presented as fact to them and thats the problem, because it biases their upbringing.

Zaynzma wrote: »

My belief in God is like my belief that night follows day. There are no acceptable 'alternative beliefs'. God created me. God created the universe and everything in it. There is a Day of Reckoning to come when we will have to make an account for ourselves before Him. If you accept that as a given (and I do) then naturally you are not going to want your children to be misinformed about it.

Would it make it easier if, instead of saying that I will share my beliefs with my children, I say:

"I will teach my children the Ultimate Truth and hope they will come to accept it, although I accept that I cannot compel them to do so."

You are still not getting this. By telling your kids the ultimate truth you are biasing them towards it. By raising you kids according to the ultimate truth you are biasing them towards it. You are not telling them that it is what you believe the ultimate truth to be, you are telling them that it is the Ultimate Truth. You are telling them that its everyone else that has beliefs, you have the ultimate truth. How is a child supposed to question that? What would you do if a child of 5 said they didn't accpet it? A child of ten? or 15?

Zaynzma wrote: »

Just to clarify (I hope!!!! apparently I am rubbish at explaining what I mean) when I said no-one can be compelled to accept a belief, I meant that no-one can be compelled to believe in a particular religion, or indeed in God. Just because I educate my children in my faith and present it to them as an absolute truth, doesn't mean they will automatically become believers!

Of course it does! Ask any muslim parent what their kids believe in and they will say god. If you present something as absolute truth to a child how is the child going to discern that it is an absolute truth? That process is also learned from the parent, who has already decided what the absolute truth is, how will the child decide any different?

Mark Hamill

Zaynzma wrote: »

If a person (for example) having a sexual relationship outside marriage told me they believed they were breaking God's law by doing so but intended to continue to do so, then I would not presume to tell them "you don't really believe you're breaking God's law".

That seems the height of arrogance to me.

Why is it the height of arrogance?

Zaynzma wrote: »

And (sorry I can't get the hang of the multiple quote thing) no, not according to my interpretation of Islam - according to the quran.

According to your interpretation of the quran.

Mark Hamill

Zaynzma wrote: »

Mark I have 3 kids. Have you got any?

3 nephews and 2 neices (live next door to 4 of them, so I see them every day). Besides, all you need do is go into a primary school to understand my point about kids believing what they are told. There is not much questioning in primary school by kids, and what little there is, will be accepting of the first answer it get.
You can get ask a ten year old to tell you the maths times tables, all the way to 12x12, and they can recite it all to you, but ask why 1x1 is 1, why 2x2 is 2 and all you are likely to get is blank looks. Heck, ask them what 13x5 is and they will look schocked at the concept of a 13 times tables. The younger they are, the more accepting kids are of what they are told. They think little beyond what they are told, and less about whether what they are told is actually true.

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why is it the height of arrogance?


According to your interpretation of the quran.

Of course it is the height of arrogance to tell someone that they don't REALLY believe what they have clearly stated they believe. You know better than them what they believe?

There is a quranic injunction against relationships outside marriage. If there is an alternative interpretation of said injunctions please share and provide the evidence which backs it up.

I am short of time today but I have read the other replies from you and dr. emma and will try and come back later or tomorrow to respond, I'm not ignoring them it's an interesting discussion.

imported_guy

Mark Hamill wrote: »

3 nephews and 2 neices (live next door to 4 of them, so I see them every day). Besides, all you need do is go into a primary school to understand my point about kids believing what they are told. There is not much questioning in primary school by kids, and what little there is, will be accepting of the first answer it get.
You can get ask a ten year old to tell you the maths times tables, all the way to 12x12, and they can recite it all to you, but ask why 1x1 is 1, why 2x2 is 2 and all you are likely to get is blank looks. Heck, ask them what 13x5 is and they will look schocked at the concept of a 13 times tables. The younger they are, the more accepting kids are of what they are told. They think little beyond what they are told, and less about whether what they are told is actually true.

i dont know what kind of an athiest you are, you come off as a weak one, i assume you celebrate christian holidays, are you going to tell your kids to believe in santa? why?, i mean if he wants to tell his kids there is a god, to you it should be just as absurd to make a kid believe in santa, according to you neither (should) exsists.

tell me why 1 + 1 = 2? your all growed up you should know, or do you just believe its 2? have you got any facts? or can you prove 1 + 1 = 2? actully see this http://tinyurl.com/ye4xt8e should set you on the right track, im guessing up until now you BELIEVED 1 + 1 was = 2, never saw the facts.

doctoremma

imported_guy wrote: »

tell me why 1 + 1 = 2? your all growed up you should know, or do you just believe its 2? have you got any facts? or can you prove 1 + 1 = 2? actully see this http://tinyurl.com/ye4xt8e should set you on the right track, im guessing up until now you BELIEVED 1 + 1 was = 2, never saw the facts.

You use ambiguous language here, whether on purpose or not.

1 + 1 = 2 is the fact. It is an observable phenomenon that everyone can understand, utilise and apply with complete confidence in the results. In fact, some philosophers believe that "1 + 1 = 2" is an example of innate knowledge i.e. one that we do not learn.

We have all seen the fact of 1 + 1 = 2. It is not a matter for belief.

What most of us haven't seen (nor in many cases require) is the proof that 1 + 1 = 2. This is what you presented. In my case, I do not understand a word (or number!) of it. However, this does not make "1 + 1 = 2" any less of a fact.

imported_guy

doctoremma wrote: »

You use ambiguous language here, whether on purpose or not.

1 + 1 = 2 is the fact. It is an observable phenomenon that everyone can understand, utilise and apply with complete confidence in the results. In fact, some philosophers believe that "1 + 1 = 2" is an example of innate knowledge i.e. one that we do not learn.

We have all seen the fact of 1 + 1 = 2. It is not a matter for belief.

What most of us haven't seen (nor in many cases require) is the proof that 1 + 1 = 2. This is what you presented. In my case, I do not understand a word (or number!) of it. However, this does not make "1 + 1 = 2" any less of a fact.

clearly you dont know about the fallacious proof, im guessing you have done complex numbers sometime in your life. otherwise i suggest you watch some videos on www.khanacademy.org

The Fallacious Proof:

• -1/1 = 1/-1
• Taking the square root of both sides:
• Simplifying:
• In other words, i/1 = 1/i.
• Therefore, i / 2 = 1 / (2i),
• i/2 + 3/(2i) = 1/(2i) + 3/(2i),
• i (i/2 + 3/(2i) ) = i ( 1/(2i) + 3/(2i) ),
• ,
• (-1)/2 + 3/2 = 1/2 + 3/2,
• and this shows that 1=2.

so tell me if 1 = 2, why does 1 + 1 = 2 and not 4?

your telling me "every one knows 1 + 1 = 2" so it must be true, prove it too me since its a fact that it is true, because i just proved it otherwise

since this is off topic PM me if you have want to inquire about the relative nature of a thing called "proof" many athiests are weak/ignorant and need be be awared by a fellow athiest.

The Recliner

We are going a bit off track here

We are not trying to prove that God/Allah/Santa/The Easter Bunny or the Veruca Fairy exist

That is a discussion for another thread and to be honest another forum

Bring it back to something approaching relevant to the rearing of a child as it is an interesting topic

doctoremma

imported_guy wrote: »

clearly you dont know about the fallacious proof, im guessing you have done complex numbers sometime in your life. otherwise i suggest you watch some videos on www.khanacademy.org

The Fallacious Proof:

• -1/1 = 1/-1
• Taking the square root of both sides:
• Simplifying:
• In other words, i/1 = 1/i.
• Therefore, i / 2 = 1 / (2i),
• i/2 + 3/(2i) = 1/(2i) + 3/(2i),
• i (i/2 + 3/(2i) ) = i ( 1/(2i) + 3/(2i) ),
• ,
• (-1)/2 + 3/2 = 1/2 + 3/2,
• and this shows that 1=2.

so tell me if 1 = 2, why does 1 + 1 = 2 and not 4?

your telling me "every one knows 1 + 1 = 2" so it must be true, prove it too me since its a fact that it is true, because i just proved it otherwise

Square root 1/-1 = - square root 1/square root -1, not + square root 1/square root -1 (as you claim in step 2-3).

The Recliner

See the post above yours

This is the end of the proof/No proof arguement

back on topic please

Mark Hamill

Zaynzma wrote: »

Of course it is the height of arrogance to tell someone that they don't REALLY believe what they have clearly stated they believe. You know better than them what they believe?

Can you honestly say that if someone honestly believed god would punish them for doing something, and that they truely understood hell, that they would still do it? Someone who claims to believe something, yet contradicts it by action doesn't really believe it.

Mark Hamill

imported_guy wrote: »

i dont know what kind of an athiest you are, you come off as a weak one, i assume you celebrate christian holidays, are you going to tell your kids to believe in santa? why?, i mean if he wants to tell his kids there is a god, to you it should be just as absurd to make a kid believe in santa, according to you neither (should) exsists.

I have no plans to tell my kids to believe in santa, but even if I did, christmas (and a lot of christian holidays) have no real religious significance anyway. Christmas is just about spending time with family and showing that you appreciate them with presents.
Oh, and by the way, it comes off as quite silly to assume something of someone (that I'm a weak atheist) and then ask them a question, the answer of which would either confirm or denounce your assumption (would you tell your kids about santa?).

imported_guy wrote: »

tell me why 1 + 1 = 2? your all growed up you should know, or do you just believe its 2? have you got any facts? or can you prove 1 + 1 = 2? actully see this http://tinyurl.com/ye4xt8e should set you on the right track, im guessing up until now you BELIEVED 1 + 1 was = 2, never saw the facts.

What exactly is your point? I said that kids dont question why 1+1=2, they just accept it, an example of how kids aren't really very questioning of what they are told. Questioning me on the point will either show that I do know why 1+1=2, although when/why I found out is indeterminate, or I don't know why 1+1=2, which would show that I was accepting of something I was told when I was young, which would just reaffirm my point that kids aren't questioning of what they are told.

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What exactly is your point? I said that kids dont question why 1+1=2, they just accept it, an example of how kids aren't really very questioning of what they are told. Questioning me on the point will either show that I do know why 1+1=2, although when/why I found out is indeterminate, or I don't know why 1+1=2, which would show that I was accepting of something I was told when I was young, which would just reaffirm my point that kids aren't questioning of what they are told.

The Recliner has already asked you to move on from this point and get back on topic. Can you please do so?